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Old 01-16-2006   #1
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Quaero to Take Europe By Storm?

Well, it's very early days yet, but the Quaero project in France and Germany appears to be an attempt to create domestic R&D firepower, and to respond to the global dominance of large American tech companies like Google.

The historical record on things like this is mixed, it's fair to say. In cases like Microsoft, you don't just build your own indigenous OS and compete with them.

Likely it's going to wind up being a positive general sentiment to increase R&D and focus more on developing the Internet technology sector in these countries. But you're unlikely to see Europeans giving up their Google habit en masse.

Or as Battelle wrote: "good f'ing luck, boys."
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Old 01-17-2006   #2
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Government Funded?

That is too bad. If their government is anything like ours, they will have too much red tape to get the thing off the ground. A little competition would be good.
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Old 01-17-2006   #3
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As long as they taut the fact that there is a need for it.... businesses will register in the directory and possibly even pay minimal fees... "just in case"

This would be for the same reason that they bought the .net and .org names in the beginning... but didn't go for the .biz and so forth....

I think it's a distinct line that they must draw themselves on the correct side of.
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Old 01-17-2006   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewgoodman
...to respond to the global dominance of large American tech companies like Google.

The historical record on things like this is mixed, it's fair to say. In cases like Microsoft, you don't just build your own indigenous OS and compete with them.

Or as Battelle wrote: "good f'ing luck, boys."
Hmm, not sure what kind of conclusions to draw from this post but that there it seems to be a heightened conception that whatever comes from Europe is a response to 'American imperialisme'.

It was good to read a mention of Microsoft here, don't you think that if the case were to stop the American tech menace from taking the world (I think this as I write in my Dell computer, just after having watched series 3 of 24 for the tenth time) the Europeans wouldn't go straight to the OS market instead of search engines?

Despite a couple of EU grillings, Microsoft didn't attract the same amount of discussions that Japan, the EU (and let's not forget China's straight-to-the-point stand with SE's) started now for a simple reason: their products serve French, German, Portuguese, Siamese and Martians not only in their own language but dialect and national styles to the point of almost being perceived as a national product. Microsoft products dont tell you : hey, here's MS Word en Français, now please select your language again. Nor do IBM, HP, Dell, Sun Microsystems, Cisco, Apple and so on. Search engines do, unless you are an English speaker.

Well, I don't think there is much point discussing any further about this issue, but truth is that from all the sectors of the American industry with products being sold offshore, the SE industry seems to be one of the few which is less prepared to meet local needs or even understand elementary cultural characteristics. Nobody denies their services are good in English but the same can not be said about other languages and as such I believe the EU has a little bit of authority and natural proximity to cater for their own languages and reap the fruits of it if results are satisfactory, no?

The 'f'ing good luck' bucket goes back to the SE's and to whoever said it. After all every other big company from Disney to IBM goes out there and doesn't manage to get the elected government (another reason for a little respect here) of three countries (10+ if you take the dictatorships that put these companies in a leash) to stand up for themselves.

If you want to see how pathetic the thing goes you are invited to read my recent post at http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/...ead.php?t=9670.

It kind of shows what kind of quality search results we, outside the English speaking world, are getting from these companies.

Last edited by Luis Morais : 01-17-2006 at 07:17 PM. Reason: added misisng punctuation
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Old 01-18-2006   #5
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We had a discussion about this and related issues at my weekly show at WebmasterRadio, Strike Point, with Dave Naylor this monday. It was all initiated and fueled by Dave having a really bad search-day (much worse that a bad hair-day!) - he simply could not find one decent result in neither Yahoo or Google (UK) for queries that should have returned decent results. organic results as well as paid was just not even closely related!

It seems that especially Google are not keeping up with quality. I don't know if they value search less, use less resources or if it's just because they keep focusing on being big rather than good. I don't know. But I can see the results and they are not too good.

Up untill recently I did not believe much in local European engins would ever again be able to build strong local indexes from crawling. The main problem is, that if you want to build a really good Danish og French index you need to crawl the entire world - and thats a bloody large data set to deal with, to say the least Not all content Danes are looking for is on .dk domains and not everything you find on .dk domains are relevant for danes. Most of what danes would want is probably in Danish, but it could also be in Greenlandic, german, Swedish or English. How would you know? Well, it's not easy, but to begin with you need to know "Danes" (or Frenchmen, if it's a French index you want to make).

Now, I am not sure what to believe anymore ... Maybe, if Google, Yahoo and MSN don't step up and do something serious about their local results maybe, just maybe, some of the new European/local engines might have a chance. But then again, wouldn't it be kind of sad, if the only reason the new engines can compete is because the old ones are getting worse?

This is not a tecnical issue - Google could improve the local search here many times very easily. They have the skills and the right brains. It's a question of money and priorities!

Many of us know great people at Google, Yahoo and MSN and I can personally testify that they have a burning passion for search. Those people will do whatever they can to build the best engines possible but the question is: Do they get the resources assigned that they need? And if not, how long will they stay around ...

Anyway, it's all just guess work from my side and I am, as I said, not even sure what to believe at the moment. One thing is for sure, though, search is changing, and so will users based on what they get - let's just hope it will turn out for the better


Quote:
Government Funded?

That is too bad. If their government is anything like ours, they will have too much red tape to get the thing off the ground. A little competition would be good.
You need to understand the differences in European culture and American - it is very comon for us to have state funded projects like that. We often chose to operate things on a state level rather than on free enterprise and commercial interests. We are used to it
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Old 01-18-2006   #6
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Red face Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel deMib Svendsen
The main problem is, that if you want to build a really good Danish og French index you need to crawl the entire world - and thats a bloody large data set to deal with, to say the least Not all content Danes are looking for is on .dk domains and not everything you find on .dk domains are relevant for danes. Most of what danes would want is probably in Danish, but it could also be in Greenlandic, german, Swedish or English. How would you know? Well, it's not easy, but to begin with you need to know "Danes" (or Frenchmen, if it's a French index you want to make).
Mikkel, first of all, many thanks for airing your opinion, you have been the first person ever to at least acknowledge the issue after almost a year of me telling this to people (well, actually some users in other forums have acknowledged my opinions by throwing abuse and calling me names).

The main problem is that many of the foreign people using the net speak English and don't notice these little things. I wrote a really thorough post in Matt Cutts blog sometime ago about using stemming to differentiating Romance and latin languages (Gallician, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Mirandese, etc) and using Google Sitemaps with XML country and language tags. As you said, in every other country, most developers and thinking minds either host their sites in the US under a .net or .com or post their thoughts in blogger and geocities. There is also the issue of people thinking they are hosting their sites in a national hosting company when in fact their pages are being kept in someone's merchant account in an American company.

This is an excerpt of the post suggesting a set of solutions (they should be used together) to the problem we have:

a. Extend the algorithm to check the content of the page (keywords, addresses, language, etc…) and interpret what country that page belongs to. It can be a bit complicated for multi-national sites hosting pages in several languages side by side, but if big multinational sites can, then the solution might already been in place somewhere just waiting to be rolled out across the globe.

b. Language differentiator chart (stemming). When I was a kid, my father, a Spanish immigrant, used to write down how to say certain words in several languages spoken in the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and Spain). He would start with a word like ‘action’ then by using stemming he would progress from ação to acción then, acció, açon, etc…

Every Latin language has a set of characteristics that differentiate them from each other. I believe Google is already doing something in that sense as we can not see as many Spanish results in Portuguese-only searches as it used to be before.

c. Inbound and outbound links from a certain country. It could give a clue to bots of which country the .com or .net site belongs to.

d. Country opt-in via Google Sitemaps or other XML resources. Extending Google Sitemaps functionality to accommodate XML language/country declarations would be great and also help the algorithm to judge where the page is from.

e. XML namespaces in the HTML tag of the document.

f. Target country meta-tag. HP uses it already:

g. Country hint in the URL. In the same way SE algorithms read keywords in the URL, it could be helpful to extend the algorithm capability to analyse a .net or .com as pertaining to a country via the countries XML abbreviation in the URL. Example:

http:/ / www .foreignsite. net/br/index.html

h. DMOZ indication. Use of DMOZ’s country categorisation as a validator of a site’s origin.
I have no words to describe how happy I am someone else is talking about these things. I really don't care who provides my search results once they are relevant for me and for those in my country who can not speak English.

Best regards,

Luis

Last edited by Luis Morais : 01-18-2006 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 01-18-2006   #7
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I agree that something needs to be done, to improve results for non-english speaking users outside the USA - byt the major ones or ther. And just like you, I don't care if Google does it, a state project or just some other competing engine. As long as it gets better.

In Denmark and Norway we see every day how all the engines mess up between out two languages. I would say (allthough haven't tested in in more details) that 20-40% of all results in Google.dk is Norwegian pages that shuld NOT be there. They are simply not relevant at all.

However, with all respect, I do not agree with many of your suggestions for how to solve it

One large group of your suggestions is fcused on user input - tagging and categorization of pages in varius forms. I don't think that is a realistic solution. Just look at the very simple TITLE and META-tags - in the last study I saw (some years ago) on this, only about 30% actually had those tags in place but out of that 30% most was either filled out wrong (typically using identical information for all pages) or had syntax errors.

Categorizing documents, and tagging them correctly is not easy and most webmasters are lazy or incompetent. Sorry to say, but they are

So, I think engines have to solve this from their end - and don't blame it on the webmasters.
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Old 01-18-2006   #8
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I think Google (and other search engines) think that their algo is language neutral, and therefore should apply regardless of the language and culture involved.

Theoretically, that's probably true. Theoretically, it doesn't matter whether a keyword is in English, Dutch or Klingon. Theoretically.

In the real world, the millions of tiny decisions you make every day are influenced by your culture, location and many other environmental factors. From the coffee you drink to the keyboard you use to the keywords you choose and the order you use them in.

I'd love to see some local search engines pop up. Not "localized" but local. I think you'd see some interesting results.

I've actually had formal training in anthropology, and still find myself making culturally biased decisions and assumptions even when I'm trying not to and have had training in what to look for.

A few of those types of assumptions are in this very thread, which you might expect to be more culturally sensitive given the topic:

1. The assumption that government projects probably work the same way on both sides of the Atlantic

2. The assumption that tagging by country is granular enough. For example, there is a HUGE difference between Quebec and the rest of Canada, for example.

3. The assumption that tagging by language is enough. There are dozens of different types of English, for example, and I can barely understand several of them (Ever try Jamaican English?).

4. Baidu is doing a pretty good job of kicking Google all over the marketplace in China - and it's local. The reason is NOT state sponsorship, or censorship or anything like that - it's understanding the users. There is no reason why Quaero could not do the same, given the right circumstances.

We had a thread here a while ago where it was argued that there should be a Google.us. The responses in that thread pretty much sum up why Americans are generally unqualified to make assumptions and decisions about how search in other countries is perceived, and vice versa.

My opinion,

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Old 01-18-2006   #9
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Ian, I agree with much of what you say, just not this:
Quote:
Theoretically, that's probably true. Theoretically, it doesn't matter whether a keyword is in English, Dutch or Klingon. Theoretically.
For a search engine in 1995 you are right - but not for a search engine in 2006. There are so much linquistics involved now that to a great degree tie into every single language and dialect. let me just give you one very simple example: How to treat hypenated words ...

In English it makes sense to replace a hypen with a space - so car-insurrance becomes car insurrance. In Danish, the oposite is true - the word is "bil-forsikring" wich would become bilforsikring (one word) if you remove the hyphen.

And this is just very basic stuff - I will leave it to Orion to explain in more details some of the other more advanced stuff that goes on that also tie into local language, gramma and dictionaries.

Language also comes into play for spam-detection. Remember when we started seing some problem with files named "guestbook" some years ago? Guess what, files with the Danish word for this: "gaestebog" did not change one bit. We have seen the same with the "non official sandbox" (the one that isn't there hehe) - I have definately seen example of things that could be called a "sandbox" on .com domains - but I have yet to see one single example on .dk sites in Danish.
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Old 01-18-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel deMib Svendsen
However, with all respect, I do not agree with many of your suggestions for how to solve it

Yes, you are right Mikkel. We can not really assume designers and webmasters will follow W3C standards (accessibility, usability) and help SE's, in fact I see that we can end up creating another door for spamming that can be easily exploited and abused.

What I say is food for thought and it is good to hear your frank opinion on the matter.

Cheers,

Luis
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Old 01-18-2006   #11
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Just for the record, in introducing the topic, I wasn't meaning to cast doubt on the project. I am neutral-to-optimistic about its prospects. It's not surprising that government backing is part of the mix on something of this nature. Those who haven't fully drunk the Kool-Aid poured by the successful Silicon Valley entrepreneurs would recognize for example that the economic zones that have launched spinoff technologies have come out of government spending (on the military, for example). Without massively underwriting science and developing a critical mass of cool scientists and technologies in the first place, the environment wouldn't have been there for independent markets to develop.

Way back when, before there was even much money in the world, our Canadian government did crazy things like oversee the construction of telecommunications and railways across a 4,000-mile-wide nation.

Again speaking of Canada, we can be easily lulled into the idea that you can sort of just "tack on" a few local twists and go ahead and enjoy search the same as it is in the US. However, there are a number of problems there. Comparison shopping engines, save for the energetic ShopToIt, are virtually nonexistent. And then there is that 23% of the country that has French as a primary language, with Quebec being considered a French-speaking "nation" by many in the province. On the search front usage has bounced around over the years. Google is probably pulling away now, but there have been indigenous portals that have gained traction (lat Toile) from time to time -- however, these are only as good in the search department as their underlying partnerships and technologies allow. MSN has good traction there also. But if these can't do the job, then French speaking Quebecois will look for more relevant places to search. They've dabbled in things like lycos.fr, even (talk about desperate ). It's not at all out of the question that more government funding might go into a search site for the Quebec "nation" someday, if the major brands aren't deemed relevant to citizens' needs. After all, to protect French language and culture in Quebec from being assimilated by the North American English population, a whole government bureaucracy built up to protect these (Office de la Langue Francaise). This is a large enough society that *if it's deemed a priority*, search could become a target for funding / infrastructure.

That's not to say anything against Google and Microsoft, who have worked hard at getting to where they are internationally. But it seems likely that such indigenous projects will arise wherever there is a major inadequacy in search. As disappointing as this may be to the big brands, it would inject fun back into the job of watching the search sector.

I have a feeling this sort of topic will be a perennial one at future SES's around the globe.
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Old 01-21-2006   #12
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What's a word?

Just a quick point from my days studying linguisitics - what is a word? When you try to define it you find out it's actually impossible to do.

The reason for this is that different family groups treat words in different ways.

Most romance anguages plus English have relatively short words eg football boots

Germanic tend to aggregate their 'ideas' into longer words eg fussballschuhe

Languages with case endings at the end of words (Finnish, Hungarian, Russian, Bulgarian etc) convey a function to a noun depending on its function in the sentence. eg futbolniy obuv (football boots) has a different "football" to "na futbolnom polle" (on the football field).

And that's before we consider Chinese, Japanese....

The point about this is that it's actually pretty difficult to create one universal search engine which puts all the "words" into a bucket and then extracts pages based on those word where the words are acting as a tool to find pages using a comon system.

Mikkel was talking about the Scandinavian languages and there is a project to facilitate multilingual search across scandinavian languages - see Rasmus Sorensen on that here. So quaero is not the only European search initiative.

One of the reasons Yandex is more successful than Google in Russia is because it works linguistically better with the Russian language where "words" perform multiple functions in the same sentence.

Sure Google could do it and it is a question of priorities - but I think we should bear in mind they'd ideally really need to set up a new system and approach for each major language group to be truly successful.

Partly, Google's profitability relies on re-using the same systems across different language types.

I just can't see how that approach can work forever - at some point an organisation will make a step change and take the quality of search up significantly by being 'language-focused' rather than 'character-set-focused'.
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Old 01-21-2006   #13
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The Scandinavian project suffers from two important problems: The funding is not even 1/10th of what they need to finish anything usefull - and even if they did, I doubt it would be usefull at all!

Scandinavia is NOT one country and search users are generally not looking for documents in the other countries here. When danes search for politics, good restaurants and cheap bank loans they are not looking for a Swedish or Norwegian website but a Danish one.

So in a way, this project seems to be doing almost the oposite of what I was talking about: Making better local results. In my mind they will actually make them worse! Instead of having 20-40% Norwegian results in Google.dk we may get 100% with this engine. What a nightmare!

I am sorry to say, but this project looks very much like the usual "university" project where they completely forgot to ask the users what they actually want.

Allthough I appreciate any research done in local search, I don't think this particular project stand a chance of success.
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Old 01-21-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy AtkinsKruger
And that's before we consider Chinese, Japanese....

The point about this is that it's actually pretty difficult to create one universal search engine which puts all the "words" into a bucket and then extracts pages based on those word where the words are acting as a tool to find pages using a comon system.

I just can't see how that approach can work forever - at some point an organisation will make a step change and take the quality of search up significantly by being 'language-focused' rather than 'character-set-focused'.
Andy and Mikkel,

Just to add, Romance languages can be distinguished between each other. I would not expect SE's to distinguish between European and Brazilian Portuguese (actually, I am of the opinion that despite their differences, they should be served together and let the page author have the trouble of helping the SE's to tell which is which via meta-tags).

But if I had to create an algorithm to pick me pages which are written in English I would just need to write three lines:

if word 'and' is present, and
if word 'the' is present,
then document is likely to be English.

Of course this doesn't take into consideration documents written in 2 languages etc... but my point is algorithms just need to pick up whatever is unique of each language and test it against the content.
For example, the main differences between portuguese and spanish:

E: the
P: o, a
S: el, la

E: of the
P: do, da
S: del, de la

E: action, conviction, atraction
P: ação, convicção, atração
S: acción, convicción, atración

If Yahoo just based these three characteristics in searches made in Latin-America their results in Portuguese would get a little better than they are now, the same extends to one or another search engine in Brazil which still doesn't know we speak Portuguese instead of Spanish.

Extending this table to cross-reference every language inside each language family would require the work of a team of linguists, but wouldn't one expect that? If there isn't money there for the investment then why not create the framework for people to create their own local linguistic tables (like the one I did above) and make the results Open Source? Every country, even the poorest have their universities, I don't see how difficult it would be for SE's to just create a framework for linguists and people from all over the world to fill up the gaps. At least that will cut the initial cost of getting people to compile lists and lists of commom words used.

Well, just an idea.
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