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Old 06-30-2005   #1
NoMass
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Thumbs down white hat now in the cesspool

Is it me, or have white hat techniques gone down the drain lately? Let’s say my site deals in Widgeting (as a service). The top 10 sites for my target keywords are all awful pages with no structure. For the keywords Corporate Widgeting & Widgeting Services the top site doesn't even have both words in its title. I go to the page and there are no H1 tags. Nothing. and Keyword density is VERY low. Now, before you all shout out about linking, I've checked backlinking and the keywords are not in linking text. I'm coming to the conclusion that, although i've always being an advocate for white hat techniques, it simply doesn’t work any more. I like my pages to have good structure (H1 tags..etc) but at this point i really can’t afford the lost traffic. It's almost as if G has implemented an Over Optimization filter.
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Old 06-30-2005   #2
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i agree completely

if whitehat techniques, which i abandonded well over a year ago, were at all effective, this forum would not exist.

i don't know when the rest of the world is going to catch on to this.

maybe all the other blackhats are too busy counting their money to post about how unfair the search engines are!
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Old 06-30-2005   #3
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Is it me, or have white hat techniques gone down the drain lately?
White hat still works just fine, and Google is not the only search engine in town. Yahoo and MSN love white hat sites if they're relevant and well optimized.
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Old 06-30-2005   #4
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we've got plenty of white-hatted sites still ranking fine in Google. This forum does just fine with all kinds of hats, thank you very much.
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Old 07-01-2005   #5
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Every single site I've ever done is WH, and they are doing quite well, thank you, (including one of the largest internet pharmacies). And I sleep well knowing that I've minimized the risks for my clients as much as possible while doing it.

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Old 07-01-2005   #6
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Post Over Optimization Filter absurdity.

I was merely trying to illustrate that it might be a good idea to actually remove some of the "logical" and structural elements to avoid a (possible) Over Optimization Filter. Further more, i wanted to highlight how absurd the whole situation is: Google is penalizing for doing things in the right way. Obviously, they are doing this to keep their SERPs relevant and not cluttered with spam; at this point, it seems as if this is a typical cat and mouse game.
And yes, i know there are other search engines like Yahoo and MSN, but let’s be realistic. I don't give a dam about those engines. And looking at my log files, it seems as if 93% of my customers don't either.
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Old 07-01-2005   #7
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Thumbs up

White hat has been extremely profitable for me lately.
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Old 07-01-2005   #8
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Your log files don't tell you who buys. Only where they came from!

WH working wonders for me and all my clients.
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Old 07-01-2005   #9
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Blackhat is kicking butts

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Old 07-01-2005   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summerherekids
maybe all the other blackhats are too busy counting their money to post about how unfair the search engines are!
Or maybe they are too busy trying to recover from the losses, when their sites have been suddenly filtered off from Google...
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Old 07-01-2005   #11
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Originally Posted by NoMass
And yes, i know there are other search engines like Yahoo and MSN, but let’s be realistic. I don't give a dam about those engines. And looking at my log files, it seems as if 93% of my customers don't either.
Maybe if those sites were optimized a little better, you'd be getting traffic from more than just one site.

There's a lot of search traffic out there, and it ain't all Google.
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Old 07-01-2005   #12
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Although it has always been debated what exactly are white hat and black hat techniques, what I consider and practice to be white hat is working great for our clients. Of course many black hatters will testify to the same thing.

I think that if your marketing strategy is smart and well thought out, it can work either way. The opposite is also true in that if you do not develop a well-planned and strategic optimization campaign, it will struggle or fail no matter what color hat you try to put on.
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Old 07-01-2005   #13
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All our WH SEO techniques are performing quite well on the top 5 engines. Don't see any problems with over optimization either.

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Google is penalizing for doing things in the right way.
Cute, but, ah... no.
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Old 07-01-2005   #14
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>Every single site I've ever done is WH, and they are doing quite well, thank you, (including one of the largest internet pharmacies)

With respect I think you will find most of the playas in that keyword space moved on some time ago. It may just be me but it seems that our comrades who find guidelines hard to comply with find complaince with the law more natural.
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Old 07-01-2005   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMass
Google is penalizing for doing things in the right way.
Somehow I can't see where you came up with that statement. Maybe you should consider the realm of requirements for G placement. Afterall, unless you work for G, I highly doubt you know for sure what is going on in the alg. It sounds to me IMO that you are concentrating on one or two possible characteristics in the alg. Just keep in mind that there are so many different characteristcs and don't forget about the big update G just went through. Word from some of folks at G say, that one won't calm down completely until the end of the summer.
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Old 07-01-2005   #16
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I think I agree though. We have always used white hat but are no longer competitive.
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Old 07-01-2005   #17
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Originally Posted by JanuaryGem
Somehow I can't see where you came up with that statement. Maybe you should consider the realm of requirements for G placement. Afterall, unless you work for G, I highly doubt you know for sure what is going on in the alg. It sounds to me IMO that you are concentrating on one or two possible characteristics in the alg. Just keep in mind that there are so many different characteristcs and don't forget about the big update G just went through. Word from some of folks at G say, that one won't calm down completely until the end of the summer.
If you have a pipeline into Google then perhaps you know something that others don't, but what I see is that the current Google SERPs have dropped many relevant sites who have not used blackhat techniques out of the top 100 rankings and replaced them with less than relevant sites. Its not the first time that Google have messed up big time with a new update.
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Old 07-01-2005   #18
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Yes don't know what they have done but our site has always prided itself on being honest and informative but we are just no where in the rankings now.
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Old 07-01-2005   #19
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Just look at the full picture...

All I'm saying is look at the full picture not just a piece of the puzzle. There has to be something that no one is looking at. Obviously I don't know your stats or records, but in my experience many people who think they are doing everything whitehat find out through research that they are accidentally implementing a few black hat tricks. I use the research I have.. the experience I have... and use white seo. Even just into this most recent update 98% of my clientele have seen major increases in the SERP's. So... one would ask the question: If it is true that G is punishing white hats.. then why are they seeing such high results when using tactics suggested by reports from G and the other SE's?

That's all I ask.. look at the whole piece of the pie. As I tell my clients everyday.. you can't assume anything with the SERP's. There has to be a reason and it is usually found hidden in the background but it must be true for ALL cases in order for it to stand alone as fact.
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Old 07-02-2005   #20
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I go to the page and there are no H1 tags.
When did H1 tags become an SEO technique?

As far as I know, those are something to do with page design and structure not rankings. Not surprising that high ranking pages aren't using them.
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