Search Engine Watch
SEO News

Go Back   Search Engine Watch Forums > Search Engines & Directories > MSN Search
FAQ Members List Calendar Forum Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-02-2004   #1
ShootinBlanks
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Beautiful British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 6
ShootinBlanks is on a distinguished road
Is MSN tougher about 'over optimization' than Google?

My site ranks very well on Google, but MSN seems to be penalyzing it because it ranks much lower for my prime KW. I've been pretty careful about the OOP aspect, but have used several <Hx> tags with the keyword in them. Has anyone else noticed similar differences between the two sites?
ShootinBlanks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004   #2
Anthony Parsons
Rubbing the shine of the knobs who think they're better than everyone else...
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 478
Anthony Parsons will become famous soon enough
Mate, quite honestly, it is normal. If you rank well in Google, then you won't do so well in Yahoo / MSN and vice versa. There are methods to counter this and achieve similar rankings across all. They are generally just called, great SEO.
Anthony Parsons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2004   #3
seobook
I'm blogging this
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: we are Penn State!
Posts: 1,943
seobook is a name known to allseobook is a name known to allseobook is a name known to allseobook is a name known to allseobook is a name known to allseobook is a name known to all
I think people are too quick to call bad rankings a penalty. You should look at rankings as a sum of parts. Certain algorithms weight different things differently.

On page factors can only go so far to improve rankings
http://chriseo.com/modules.php?op=mo...rder=0&thold=0
and then at some point links become the driving factor

The best way to rank well in all engines is to build a site that naturally inspires inbound links and help boost that by getting whatever other links you can.
__________________
The SEO Book
seobook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2004   #4
AussieWebmaster
Forums Editor, SearchEngineWatch
 
AussieWebmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,154
AussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant future
optimizing

Quote:
Originally Posted by seobook
I think people are too quick to call bad rankings a penalty. You should look at rankings as a sum of parts. Certain algorithms weight different things differently.

On page factors can only go so far to improve rankings
http://chriseo.com/modules.php?op=mo...rder=0&thold=0
and then at some point links become the driving factor

The best way to rank well in all engines is to build a site that naturally inspires inbound links and help boost that by getting whatever other links you can.
Yes MSN uses a different alogorythm and is enough of a difference to warrant the extra work.
Try looking at sites that can be found ranking well for both sites. Remember MSN is using Inktomi and even a few stray LookSmart listings... look for the impact of paid inclusion and a comparison to Yahoo results.
I don't have an Inktomi optimizing link handy but it is covered in SEW... so look around at the nav bar to the left.
AussieWebmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2004   #5
Dodger
Honorary Member
 
Dodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Central US
Posts: 349
Dodger has a spectacular aura aboutDodger has a spectacular aura aboutDodger has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieWebmaster
Remember MSN is using Inktomi and even a few stray LookSmart listings... look for the impact of paid inclusion and a comparison to Yahoo results.
I don't have an Inktomi optimizing link handy but it is covered in SEW... so look around at the nav bar to the left.
Right now they are using Inktomi results, but they will not be coming up here very shortly. The MSNbot has been a busy little devil from what I have seen and heard from others. Right now those indexed pages are not included in the MSN Search results.

Also, why do the work to optimize for Inktomi when you know that MSN is going to change the landscape pretty soon anyway? And nobody knows exactly what those changes are going to be when they do cut loose of those Inktomi results and show the world their definition of an algorithm (which may stink, may not, nobody knows). Best to sit tight and save yourself some time and headache.
__________________
I am Ronnie
Dodger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2004   #6
AussieWebmaster
Forums Editor, SearchEngineWatch
 
AussieWebmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,154
AussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
Right now they are using Inktomi results, but they will not be coming up here very shortly. The MSNbot has been a busy little devil from what I have seen and heard from others. Right now those indexed pages are not included in the MSN Search results.

Also, why do the work to optimize for Inktomi when you know that MSN is going to change the landscape pretty soon anyway? And nobody knows exactly what those changes are going to be when they do cut loose of those Inktomi results and show the world their definition of an algorithm (which may stink, may not, nobody knows). Best to sit tight and save yourself some time and headache.
As Alec Baldwin so eloquently put it in "GlenGary GlenRoss"..
ABC... Always Be Closing

I love when people say they are waiting... just means my job in the short term is less competitive. I will take the potential 10s of thousands of hits anyone does not want for a month or two.
AussieWebmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2004   #7
Mel
Just the facts ma'm
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 793
Mel is just really niceMel is just really niceMel is just really niceMel is just really nice
I find that optimized-for-Google pages often do well on MSN, but if close attention is not paid to the on page factors they will drop on MSN.

I remember seeing a post by Makemetop on MSN optimization at SEW last year that was spot on (as Barry usually is).
__________________
Mel Nelson
Expert SEO Dont settle for average SEO
Singapore Search Engine Optimization and web design
Mel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2004   #8
AussieWebmaster
Forums Editor, SearchEngineWatch
 
AussieWebmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,154
AussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
I find that optimized-for-Google pages often do well on MSN, but if close attention is not paid to the on page factors they will drop on MSN.

I remember seeing a post by Makemetop on MSN optimization at SEW last year that was spot on (as Barry usually is).
Okay will have to reread that and see....
AussieWebmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2004   #9
dlux
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: the dirt fields
Posts: 14
dlux is on a distinguished road
anyone dare to venture a guess at what they expect to see?
dlux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2004   #10
MakeMeTop
Complete SEO Dunce!
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 28
MakeMeTop will become famous soon enough
Amazingly, even with the changes on Yahoo/Ink - there hasn't been really any change on optimising for MSN/Ink since I wrote that article. I do the same, wack them in Sitematch and get first page listings more often than not first time around.

Now, if only Google were that easy!
MakeMeTop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2004   #11
seomike
Md_Rewrite Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas but forever a Floridian!
Posts: 627
seomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to behold
Can someone define over optimization for me? Wouldn't that be spam?

I thought over optimization was just a post Florida wives tale. I still remember when people were dropping their links pages left and right and writing all their link partners to take them off etc etc all under the name of over optimization.

Just curious how it's being defined now
seomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2004   #12
David Wallace
 
David Wallace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 887
David Wallace is a splendid one to beholdDavid Wallace is a splendid one to beholdDavid Wallace is a splendid one to beholdDavid Wallace is a splendid one to beholdDavid Wallace is a splendid one to beholdDavid Wallace is a splendid one to beholdDavid Wallace is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by seomike
I thought over optimization was just a post Florida wives tale.
I think so too but I have seen examples of what people call "over-optimizing" to be where they use the keyword or phrase they are trying to target too much of they place sentences and paragraphs in every alt attribute or something along those lines. I don't think there is such a thing as "over-optimizing" however. I think you can definitely over do something but to call it "over-optimizing" ... I don't know.
David Wallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2004   #13
seomike
Md_Rewrite Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas but forever a Floridian!
Posts: 627
seomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to behold
Why can't it be called like "crappy seo" then. LOL just kidding.

I say the best rule of thumb is to optimized like a drunk guy would. Don't leave a pattern.

Atleast thats how I see it.

I think if you can tell an SEO did the page you've failed.
seomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2004   #14
AussieWebmaster
Forums Editor, SearchEngineWatch
 
AussieWebmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,154
AussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant futureAussieWebmaster has a brilliant future
lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by seomike
Why can't it be called like "crappy seo" then. LOL just kidding.

I say the best rule of thumb is to optimized like a drunk guy would. Don't leave a pattern.

Atleast thats how I see it.

I think if you can tell an SEO did the page you've failed.
I always optimize like a drunk person... since I am very rarely sober!
AussieWebmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2004   #15
seomike
Md_Rewrite Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas but forever a Floridian!
Posts: 627
seomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to behold
See there ya go I bet you have some good success

If people haven't noticed Google and other search engines can pick out patterns pretty quick. When everyone and their mom had a page called links.html Google knew it was time to get tougher on what counted as a good backward link.

If there is a rule sheet for doing SEO and out ranking sites in competition with yours then you'll know that those techniques will be depreciated in the next round of updates. Google says clearly Don't try and game our system. I'm sure Yahoo and MSN feel the same way.

Google takes it more to the extreme by making up their own rules for the internet and ignoring the W3C standard. That's why my test pages I have out there have Italic tags out weighing h1 tags for the same term.

Why would Google do that? Because for years the first rule was optimize your Title, metas, and h1 tags put your main keyword in all of them yada yada. You could make pages rank all day in G if you followed those terms even with little bit of link pop. That's why people that still go by that rule are dominating Y! instead of G LOL. Yahoo ranks pages like Google did a year ago

You can get your sites to rank for both just make sure you have good semantics and heavy duty link pop for Google. and Good title metas and h1 and h3 tags for Inktomi fed engines. Just mix it all up though don't make it a pattern. have some pages that aren't 100% by the book optimized. The more the merrier.

by the way here is the test I was talking about. It's the same keyword placed in different tags to see what is promminent. Notice that an h1 doesn't even rank. pretty fun test

Last edited by seomike : 06-07-2004 at 04:37 PM.
seomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2004   #16
dannysullivan
Editor, SearchEngineLand.com (Info, Great Columns & Daily Recap Of Search News!)
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Search Engine Land
Posts: 2,085
dannysullivan has much to be proud ofdannysullivan has much to be proud ofdannysullivan has much to be proud ofdannysullivan has much to be proud ofdannysullivan has much to be proud ofdannysullivan has much to be proud ofdannysullivan has much to be proud ofdannysullivan has much to be proud of
One thing complicating MSN and Yahoo is that while they are both using the same core search engine, Yahoo Search Technology, Yahoo appears to be doing things differently on its own site.

In particular, it looks like Yahoo may be hitting a larger database on its own site than those its powers are allowed to hit. These partners include MSN or Yahoo-owned AltaVista and AllTheWeb, or Lycos-owned HotBot when using the "HotBot" button.

Consider these counts:

cars
YH - 71,900,000
ATW - 19,773,733
MSN - 15,692,974
AV - 15,670,590
HB - 15,496,939

oranges
YH - 2,330,000
AV - 639,415
ATW - 595,285
MSN - 497,477
HB - 492,864

The smaller numbers suggest a smaller database is being hit - shades of what used to happen back in the old days when we still had an Inktomi and it powered other people. The smaller database alone will produce ranking differences. Beyond this, Yahoo seems to be using ranking tweaks on its own site that partners may not be able to do.

Overall, I'd be wary of trying to optimize too much specifically for MSN. That's a moving target. At some point in the next six to nine months, we should see MSN's own crawler come into play. Instead, I'd focus more on doing well with Yahoo and hoping that some of that will also carry through on some of Yahoo-powered results at MSN.

Last edited by dannysullivan : 07-01-2004 at 07:55 AM. Reason: removed my mistaken comment on new look at msn
dannysullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2004   #17
Dodger
Honorary Member
 
Dodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Central US
Posts: 349
Dodger has a spectacular aura aboutDodger has a spectacular aura aboutDodger has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannysullivan
In particular, it looks like Yahoo may be hitting a larger database on its own site than those its powers are allowed to hit. These partners include MSN or Yahoo-owned AltaVista and AllTheWeb, or Lycos-owned HotBot when using the "HotBot" button.
You know sometimes it appears that way. For instance, I can do the domain: query at MSN and it will not bring up nearly as many pages as the site: query at Yahoo will...not by a long shot. Again, it appears that MSN is working from a smaller set of pages to work with.

But, you can do certain queries at MSN and it will show results to pages that never were shown in that domain: query too. It could be that all of the sites have the same amount of pages to work with ... but they are working with different indices to those pages perhaps (or they are outdated).
__________________
I am Ronnie
Dodger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2004   #18
Mike
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 52
Mike is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by seomike
by the way here is the test I was talking about. It's the same keyword placed in different tags to see what is promminent. Notice that an h1 doesn't even rank. pretty fun test

that is extremely interesting and surprising to me. regardless of whether the tag got overused by SEO's or not, it's still a way that websites emphasize their terms -- and now google is ignoring emphasis? this is a natural way to emphasize something.

I find that very frustrating. engines should focus on ignoring the bad things that sites are doing for optimization, not the good things. hidden text, repeating phrases, etc etc, those are bad. emphasizing your phrases so the engines see what is most important on your page? that's not bad at all
Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2004   #19
Dodger
Honorary Member
 
Dodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Central US
Posts: 349
Dodger has a spectacular aura aboutDodger has a spectacular aura aboutDodger has a spectacular aura about
Actually, the more I look at that test ... the more it looks wrong to me. It is actually not a valid test that I can see.

For one ... the Hx tags appear at the end of the document. In normal usage of Hx tags, they appear toward the beginning of sections of content.

Another problem with the test is that all of the document Titles are different ... in order to nullify the Title from influencing Body elements, the Title (and all other Head elements) should be exactly the same.
__________________
I am Ronnie
Dodger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2004   #20
seomike
Md_Rewrite Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas but forever a Floridian!
Posts: 627
seomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to beholdseomike is a splendid one to behold
Dodger the entire point of the test was to NOT match a title and a tag. The test you are refering to with matching title and tag is here Another cool test

Once again you'll see that google likes to make up it's own rules when it comes to W3C promminence.

And might I add if you monitor these test like I have done. You'll see that they change around about every other week. They been up and indexed since January of this year. Some will drop out then come back. I would say the most promminent tag has been the Italic tag. Go figure...

Does this mean go change your page?? No

This was just a simple little test. It doesn't include linkpop or crosslinking etc etc. These pages only compete against themselves. I just wanted to see if Google was playing by the book or was making it's own rules.

Also wanted to prove the point that tags are a depreciated optimization zone when it comes to google. After reading the quote by GoogleGuy over in wmw where he stated that "certain things don't count as much anymore" in response to the updates late '03. I think these test hint to the veracity of his statement.

Matching Titles metas and hx tags have always been an optimization zone. and also and overly abused optimization zone. In G it's depreciated if you still believe that content is king. You might be interested to know that it's more like content is linkpops b***.

This is why people that have sites that do good in Yahoo but don't do good in Google.

Since Yahoo still scores pages well for title, meta, and h1 or h3 keyword promminence you can see why people that have that structure can compete quite well in yahoo. They only have a chance at google if they inflate their linkpop which IMHO is too easily abused.

The more I look at it though the more I understand how google messes with SEOs and the more they make their results prone to spam.

Last edited by seomike : 06-08-2004 at 01:49 PM.
seomike is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off