Keyword Stuffers - Is There Any Limit??

[margarita]

I have worked for years on a site that we legitimately got excellent ranking on in Google's organic results. Our top search phrase was used on our site effectively and carefully, thereby maintaining the site's integrity as well as our company's credibility. Now, suddenly, here comes a company that has stuffed 32 (yes 32) instances of this phrase into their home page. Of course they've beat us out for positioning.

What are my choices? Do I start using the same illegitimate and dirty practices they are using to beat them at their own game?

I was under the impression that Google's algorithms would be much more effective at weeding these sites out! This is really demoralizing and frustrating.

[JohnW]

I doubt if the keyword stuffing is what helped them. It could even be hurting them a little if it's blatant enough. None of this may matter very much because they probably have beaten you by getting more/better links. I bet if you compare your backlinks to theirs you will see what's up.

[margarita]

Just to get an updated count, I checked again. Our site has a lot more links, quality links, not link farms. So, that can't be it.

[JohnW]

Where did you get the data?

[margarita]

I used various link checking strategies in Google. I know that using link:www.site.com isn't effective anymore so I search for the domain names in various forms to get a better feel. Of course I have the most accurate info in the Google Webmaster Tools but I don't have access to their info.

Do you know of any better methods?

[Marcia]

Yahoo Site Explorer is the best.

link:http://www.example.com for links to individual pages and
linkdomain:example.com for links to the entire domain, including sub-domains.

[margarita]

Results using Yahoo Site Explorer for our domain: 3,472. Their domain: 1,554.

[Marcia]

It isn't strictly numbers though, there's a lot more to link analysis than just that. Over 200 factors go into the scoring, altogether.

[margarita]

It seems then, that I really can't do anything about this, since I can't properly analyze why they have surpassed me. After working in the market I'm in for nearly 10 years and analyzing my competitors and their behavior, I've been outdone by a company that has less business, less resources, less market share and is willing to put 32 instances of the same phrase on their home page. Uggh, I just tried to play the game fairly!

[JohnW]

>It seems then, that I really can't do anything about this

Don't give up yet ;-) Tell me, how do these sites compare with allinanchor: searches?

[margarita]

For the phrase I'm concerned about here, I rank second in an allinanchor search, and the site that has surpassed me ranks third.

The site that comes in first place in the allinanchor search is placing third in regular searches for the same phrase, where I am coming in second.

[Marcia]

margarita, it isn't at all likely that the number of occurrences of the keywords is what's giving them their rankings, not at all. Algos change over time, and sometimes what worked for #1 for a long time simply doesn't carry the same amount of weight as other factors that have come into play.

You have to look at how keywords are used on a page, and within and throughout a site, and also how the links are placed on the pages that are linking to the sites, as well as their topical relevance and also - co-occurring keyword phrases and not least of all, freshness factors.

A newer site might just have more scoring advantage with freshness factors, both with on-site content and with their inbound link profile. You can't discount any of that, but rather have to see how sites compare related to scoring factors that carry weight today that might not have, or at least not as much, a while back.

[AussieWebmaster]

One there is a chance it will only be there for a week or so... if it truely is a new site - Google has the welcome to the neighborhood ranking that drops fast.... but I would use something like seoelite to check inbound links and the anchor text being used

they may have better internal link structure.... they may not bleed PR... they may have those one or two authority sites for your overall niche not just that keyword

I would reverse engineer what they have coming to the site, look at their domain name, their title and description etc and make changes to your site based on that info

maybe a bunch of your links have been negated

[margarita]

Originally Posted by Marcia

A newer site might just have more scoring advantage with freshness factors, both with on-site content and with their inbound link profile.

How do I find out about these scoring advantages and freshness factors? Are they documented anywhere?

[margarita]

Originally Posted by AussieWebmaster

I would use something like seoelite to check inbound links and the anchor text being used

I used to use an SEO software but haven't in a while. I think it was WebPosition or something like that. Is SEOelite the best out there now?

Also I'm not being snobby but our site is the authority site for our niche, so that's why I'm so blown away that this small site that is packed with keywords and has very little content is now surpassing us.

I have seen many instances of keyword stuffing working on Google in our niche - this isn't the only one, that's for sure. So I'm actually surprised that you folks say it's not an issue. I'm not saying that you all aren't correct as I believe you are all much more on top of SEO than I am - but it's just a surprise to me.

[JohnW]

Originally Posted by margarita

For the phrase I'm concerned about here, I rank second in an allinanchor search, and the site that has surpassed me ranks third.

The site that comes in first place in the allinanchor search is placing third in regular searches for the same phrase, where I am coming in second.

I'd say that when there are no penalties or technical difficulties and the allin and the search results are different like this, onpage factors are where you are getting beaten. Can't say much more about this without knowing a lot more. Also what may look like stuffing to you may not look like stuffing to the next person, or to Google. 32 instances is not automatically too much, depending.

One last question - how is the keyphrase used in the title tags, are there stop words, is it the first words?

[Marcia]

they've beat us out for positioning

Where have your rankings been (#1 for years?), and for how long? Where are you now and where are they now?

Also: when did you first notice them for the search, where did they start ranking (1st page? 2nd page?), and how long has their site been online altogether, as far as you can tell? Check their whois, for one thing, and the internet archive, also.

[damon]

I'm still a beginner SEO, but I have been noticing as a searcher that a lot of searches on Google are turning up new or recent pages. Maybe you need to get some fresh links, a little buzz...

[beu]

Freshness if part of the reason why Google teamed up with Yahoo and MSN on the Sitemaps protocol used in Webmaster Tools.

"Sitemaps protocol will enable Google, Yahoo! and Microsoft to provide more comprehensive and fresh search results"
- http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/...temapsorg.html

Users like fresh content in search results and by having fresh content, engines visit your site more often.

When was the last time you updated content on your homepage and/or other pages? Does your server support IF-Modified-Since? Do you buy and/or sell links? Is your server in the same country as your target audience? Have you tried this query on other computers? Is your competitor using the target keyword/s in an H1,H2,H3? Who has a smaller page in terms of k? Does your site offer an xml sitemap and site map for users? (some issues to investigate)

If there are "indented results" (two results from the same URL one indented under the other) in the SERPs, you might try adding &num=1 to the URL to see which page really ranks #1. To see the top two results, change &num=1 to &num=2 and so on. You might also put the keyword phrase for which you wish to rank in quotes and see who ranks #1 for that exact phrase.

I don't believe WebPosition Gold checks inbound links from sites or anchor text for inbound links. Instead I believe WebPosition Gold checks search engine rankings which isn't helping improve anything but, I'm not sure because I don't use it. By the way, products like WebPosition Gold violate Google's terms of service.

Also, if you would like to report your competitor you can do so in Google Webmaster Tools.

[Marcia]

Originally Posted by beu

Also, if you would like to report your competitor you can do so in Google Webmaster Tools.

Why? Report them for what?