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Old 04-09-2005   #1
bobmutch
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Revisiting whether PR is lost when adding pages to a site

Moderator note: Side discussion on another topic split from another thread.
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onedodd: "I currently have a PR5 on my site mainly because of my internal linking structure I believe because I just did not have that many links at all when my first PR came out." Completely impossible. The idea that you can generate toolbar PR from lots of internal links is a complete myth.

The fact of the matter is the more pages you add to your site the more real PR (and hence toolbar PR) is voted away from your home page.

Last edited by Marcia : 04-12-2005 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 04-10-2005   #2
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The fact of the matter is the more pages you add to your site the more real PR (and hence toolbar PR) is voted away from your home page. <snip>
That is *not* a FACT, there was a whole long thread here arguing that point and there are some who heartily disagree with that.

Added: Here is that other thread on this topic

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/...0&page=1&pp=30

It was pretty much fully covered there.

Last edited by Marcia : 04-12-2005 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 04-10-2005   #3
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I totally agree with that Marcia, the PR of ANY page on the web is the result of the number of links that it has, the PR of the linking page and how many other pages have to share that PR.

It can be shown (matter of fact someone somewhere did the calcs as an excercise) that if you have a very large site and arrange your links properly (in general few links outgoing from a page, and one link from every page) that you can build up a healthy PR for that page with mostly just internal links.

And you can do it the other way too, for a real crappy home page PR, build a site with 1000 pages, limit your inbound links to the home page to a single external PR2 and then link out to all those 1000 pages from the home page, but do not link back.

When in doubt do the math, its simple enough.
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Old 04-11-2005   #4
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>The fact of the matter is the more pages you add to your site the more real PR (and hence toolbar PR) is voted away from your home page.

This is not a fact. It is an opinion, and not one shared by many who know what they are talking about. The fact is that adding quality content to a site does not hurt PR unless it is done improperly.

IMO, if adding pages has hurt your PR then you are doing it wrong.
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Old 04-12-2005   #5
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JohnW: "It is an opinion, and not one shared by many who know what they are talking about. The fact is that adding quality content to a site does not hurt PR unless it is done improperly."

No one said anything about hurting PR. You can view my series of diagrams of fully meshed and hierarchically structured models with a 40 iteration calculation and the source to the calculation on my site under the article heading "Page Rank Explained". (My site URL is beside my handle above.)

When you add a new page that has a real PR of 1 to a site there is going to be PR voted to that page on the next real PR update or if you set up a model and code you can see it real time. While the new page (it will have two way link or be an orphan) votes the real PR back some is retained. The retained real PR is "bleed" from the other pages hence the other pages decrease in real PR. This is easily noticed then you use a realistic model where there is inbound links to the home page.

I am not sure who you are referring to about those "who know what they are talking about." Could you produce some names and quotes.

I would suggest you consider Markus Sobek's section "The Reduction of PageRank by Additional Pages" in his article on "A Survey of Google's RageRank" article.

Here is a short quote for that section. "Since adding pages to a site often reduces PageRank for already existing pages, it becomes obvious that the PageRank algorithm tends to privilege smaller web sites."

Another well know name is Phil Craven that has written a good article "Google's PageRank Explained". Here is a quote from that article. "The new page will, of course, aquire PageRank from the site's existing pages. The effect is that, whilst the total PageRank in the site is increased, one or more of the existing pages will suffer a PageRank loss due to the new page making gains."

Both Markus and Phil are well known names and what I would consider PR experts.

JohnW it is been may experience that any one that does know what they are talking when it comes to PR for the most part, holds this position. It takes about 20 lines of code and 30 mins to prove it.

If you have a site structure where you think adding pages will increase the real PR of the home page and the main sub pages post it up and show where you propose to add the pages. I will quickly program up the code with 40 internations that will show the real PR of each page before and after the addition of pages.

I when through this once before with a couple of the regulars here on SEW that held a simular postion as you do. I posted numerous models, calculations and the code to show my point. They just keep on mumbling the same mantra and produced no examples and no code to back up their views.

I have yet to find a site structure that has inbound links to the home page where you can add pages in the site with out bleeding real PR from the home and or sub pages.

The idea that you can increase your site real PR may appear to work on a closed model where there are no inbound links. But as soon as you use a real to life model where there are inbound links it falls apart.

Ian Rogers idea of adding 1000 pages to a site with no inbound links only works on paper. As soon as you add enought links to get Googlebot to crawl those 1000 pages the small amount of real PR that is voted to the home page from those 1000 pages is nothing compared to the real PR that the inbound links vote to the home page.

The idea of going over 1000 links may work on paper also but with Googlebot only reading 101k you can't get much more than 1000 links on a page. Then you have to go to pages that are looped. So if you want to use 10,000 pages you are going to have to run 1000 links off the home page with a 10 deep loop.

Home to 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8 to 9 to 10 to Home. With each page 1 -10 having a link to the home page.

The number of high PR links you will need to point at the home page to induce the Googlebot to read though those 10 deep loops will dwarf the small amount of PR you will get out of the 10,000 pages. And we have not even deal with the issue of orginal content.

I hold that the idea of producting PR by adding pages to a site is a myth and have yet to see any one produce a model (that will function in the real world) with code that works. In fact I havn't even met any one that holds the position you do take the time to try.
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Old 04-12-2005   #6
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I am not sure who you are referring to about those "who know what they are talking about." Could you produce some names and quotes.
Basically, who's being referred to is simply people who study and work out how to optimally structure the internal navigation of sites. There were a few who posted in those long threads on the topic a few months ago who do just that.

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Old 04-12-2005   #7
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Interesting. First, you said:

>The fact of the matter is the more pages you add to your site the more real PR (and hence toolbar PR) is voted away from your home page.

Then, you said:

>No one said anything about hurting PR.

Anyway, let me repeat one thing I said before: if adding pages has hurt your PR then you are doing it wrong. This is starting to give me a déjà vu feeling, did we not put this subject to rest some time ago?
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Old 04-12-2005   #8
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Since adding pages to a site often reduces PageRank for already existing pages, it becomes obvious that the PageRank algorithm tends to privilege smaller web sites.
-- and --

Quote:
I have yet to find a site structure that has inbound links to the home page where you can add pages in the site with out bleeding real PR from the home and or sub pages.
So I disagree entirely. I'll offer up SEW itself as an example. I add lots of pages to it all the time and have done so for years. The PR of the home page has stayed steady between PR7-9 (currently at PR8). Adding content hasn't had any bad impact.

How about the SEW Forums? We have content, and lots of it, added every day. Home page has been steady at PR7 for several months, up from PR3 it had several months before that after launch.

Both sites have links back to the home page. In fact, I find it hard to think of many sites that don't link back to their home page.

How about Amazon? They're like a PR8 or 9 and have been that way as long as I can remember. They link back to their home page. They also add thousands of pages over the course of a month, conservatively speaking.
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Old 04-12-2005   #9
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JohnW: When you add pages to a site, the real PR will be voted to those new pages. The new pages, during a real PR update, will retain some of that real PR. That is just a fact. That is the way PR works. That is not to say that is a bad thing. It is just what happens.
I have never said that any thing "hurts" PR. I have just noted what happens. In fact to those that are not PR hoarders or trying to pump up there home page so they can sell links based on PR it is a good thing. You want there to be PR on all your pages. So I would say it is far from "hurts" PR but it is a natural occurrence that is a good thing.

"This is starting to give me a déjà vu feeling, did we not put this subject to rest some time ago?"
Yes John we did discuss this before. I show diagrams with calculations of the real PR before and after pages were added to differnet site models. It clearly showed what happens to the real PR on the home page and subs when you add additional pages.

These models seemed to be ignored and the mantra continues, "if your home page looses PR you are doing some thing wrong." The fact remains that most smaller sites are fully meshed via the menu system.

Calculation and common sense tells us that when you add a new page to a fully meshed structure all pages will decrease in real PR because a new page starts with a real PR of 1.

dannysullivan: "So I disagree entirely. I'll offer up SEW itself as an example. I'll offer up SEW itself as an example. I add lots of pages to it all the time and have done so for years. The PR of the home page has stayed steady between PR7-9 (currently at PR8). Adding content hasn't had any bad impact."
Yahoo shows over 424,000 IBL into SEW's home page so that is going to off set the bleed of real PR to your 60k or so pages. So all your example shows is that a huge number (424k) of IBL's to your home page will keep the real PR high and hence the toolbar PR high also.

"How about the SEW Forums? We have content, and lots of it, added every day. Home page has been steady at PR7 for several months..."
Again the home page of your forums sub domain is showing over 38k of IBL's in Yahoo which has been enough to keep that sub domains home page at a toolbar PR7 even though you have 19k or so forum pages.

Both these examples really only show us that if you throw enough links at your home page you can off set the real PR bleed to a large number of inside pages.

What you really needs to be done is to create a controlled model where and do the real PR calculation with a number of inside pages and with out those inside pages and see what the addition of the inside pages does to the real PR on the home page and the main sub pages.

This is what I have done and it’s pretty clear what the numbers show, at least with the original PR formula. Of course there is the issue that the original PR formula may have changed.

"Both sites have links back to the home page. In fact, I find it hard to think of many sites that don't link back to their home page."
Linking back to your home page is a good thing, both in navigation and in channeling real PR (during the real PR calculation of course) to your home page. If the objective is to have high PR (and I am not saying it is or should be) on the home page then of course put a link on every page to your home page.

"How about Amazon? They're like a PR8 or 9 and have been that way as long as I can remember. They link back to their home page."
I don't know where you are getting the idea what I or anyone has stated linking back to the home page is not a good think to do if the objective is to have high PR on the home page. Common sense tells us that is a good thing to do.

The issue is not about linking back to the home page. I issue that is being discussed as I see it is that the more pages you add to your site (with no change in the real PR vote to your home page by IBL's) the real PR will be voted and retained by those new pages during a real PR update. This will decrease the real PR on the home page in most cases, and will decrease the real PR on the home page and main sub pages in all cases.

I have not said that is a bad thing or "hurts" anything. It is just the nature of the original PR formula and with 30 minutes and 20 lines of code it can be clearly shown that this is the case - as I have shown in detail with diagrams, programs that run 40 iterations and a copy of the code for each example.
http://www.seocompany.ca/pagerank/pa...umber-of-pages
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Old 04-12-2005   #10
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>The fact remains that smaller sites are fully meshed via the menu system.

If that’s the case, well, it goes to exactly what I said before – they are doing it wrong.

A fully meshed site navigation is not good SEO. (I hope I am not inviting another déjà vu moment, seems like I remember some crackpot ideas floating around on this as well…)

If we are talking about properly built websites, I still say you are missing the boat.
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Old 04-12-2005   #11
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JohnW: "If that’s the case, well, it goes to exactly what I said before – they are doing it wrong."
Personally I think fully meshed navigation is a good structure for smaller sites. It enables a person to go to any page from any page. Perhaps is it "wrong" if you objective is to channel PR to the home page. The only good reason I can think of doing that is if you want to sell links based on the PR of the home page or for bragging rights - "my site is a PR8". What benifits do you see with having higher PR on the home page as far as SEO goes?

"A fully meshed site navigation is not good SEO."
Why is fully meshed not good SEO for smaller sites? I would think that since real PR on longer holds much weight in the ranking algo, that whether the real PR of your home page is a bit higher or a bit lower will not make much differnet, if any, in your rankings and rankings is the main thing SEO is about.

I would think that if PR had weight in the ranking algo you would what it distrubited to the pages that you want to get better rankings on. Not to structure your site to try to channel as much as possible on the home page.
The idea that it's "good SEO" to channel your PR to the home page makes little sense to me. Like I said before, its important for those selling links on their home page.

"If we are talking about properly built websites, I still say you are missing the boat."
Missing the boat? What kind of a comment is that? I havn't even suggested or commented on how to built the structure of a website. I have only noted what happens with the PR vote on different site structures.
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Old 04-12-2005   #12
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>What benifits do you see with having higher PR on the home page as far as SEO goes?

In addition to growing the little green bar, I think we can all agree that getting good links from good pages enhances a pages “ability” (lets call this the authority score or PR) to rank for relevant keywords, and, to affect the authority score of other pages it links to.

And what about the good page that links to it in the first place, what makes it a “good” page? The links that point to it, right? And so forth and so on. So it seems obvious that there is a authority score of some kind, PR, whatever you want to call it, and that it is good to have more of it and bad to have less of it.

Since you can control, though internal links and proper site design, how that authority is moved around within a site and concentrate it on important pages, that is what you would want to do as part of optimization. That’s also why earlier, I said full mesh navigation where every page links to every page, is bad SEO.
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Old 04-12-2005   #13
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Since I was mentioned in this thread, I'll offer my view. To be honest, I haven't read all the long posts, so I don't really know who is saying what.

Adding pages to a site does increase the total PageRank within the site, but they will drain PageRank from the existing pages.

Take a 5 page site as an example. It has sufficient IBLs to give all of its pages some decent PageRank. It doesn't matter which pages receive the IBLs. There is a specific amount of PageRank within the site, and the PageRank of each page is determined by the linkages within the site. Now add 10 pages to the site without adding any additional IBLs, and link the new pages into the existing site. Each of the 10 new pages adds a little PageRank to the site as a whole, but they don't add anywhere near as much as each page already has. Suddenly, the existing PageRank (plus a very small amount for each new page) is spread around 15 pages instead of 5. The new pages have taken some PageRank from the original pages, and the original pages have less than they did before.

The fact of linking the new pages into the site, even if it's via just one link from any of the existing pages, means that the existing pages lose PageRank.

The exception to this is when the new pages don't link back to the originals. Any link to a page that doesn't link out is effectively dropped from the calculations - to all intents and purposes, the link and the page don't exist. So a new section with lots of new pages could be created and linked to, but if it doesn't link back, and if it doesn't link to anywhere else, no PageRank changes will occur within the original site.

So new pages that are incorporated into a site in a normal way, will drain PageRank from the existing pages as a whole. If it matters, then new IBLs are needed to compensate, or the linkages should be arranged to prevent the drain on certain pages.

Quote:
The idea that you can generate toolbar PR from lots of internal links is a complete myth.
It isn't a myth. With the right link structure it is easily done.

Quote:
The fact of the matter is the more pages you add to your site the more real PR (and hence toolbar PR) is voted away from your home page.
New pages take PageRank away from the existing pages, but not necessarily from the home page. With many or most link structures, the home page actually gains.

Last edited by PhilC : 04-13-2005 at 04:29 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 04-13-2005   #14
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Here's an example of a 5 page site where the home page (A) links to all other pages (B, C, D, E), and all other pages link back to the home page. The site has 1 IBL. The extra pages (F, G, H) are not linked in and are completely ignored.

http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank_...s=40&type=real

Note the PageRank values for each of the 5 pages:- 2.83, 0.75, 0.75, 0.75, 0.65

Now add one new page (F), and link it into the site in the same way as the other pages:-

http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank_...s=40&type=real

The PageRanks have changed to 3.29, 0.71, 0.71, 0.71, 0.71

The home page gained and the other pages lost. More pages can be added, and linked into the site in different ways, but the existing pages as a whole will always lose when new pages are added and linked into the site in a normal way, even though one or more of them can be engineered to gain.

Last edited by PhilC : 04-13-2005 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 04-13-2005   #15
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PhilC: Yes my orginal statement should have said when pages are added to the site the home page and/or sub pages loose. I corrected that statement in a later post.

I came up with the same thing in my diagrams as you 2 below examples.
When you use a hierarchically structure the home page gains 1 or 2 real PR for every page you add when you are feeding 1000 real PR into the home page. The sub pages all drop. In the fully meshed site structure (which is the way most smaller sites are) the home page real PR dropps with ever page that is added.

Thanks for adding your comments.
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Old 04-13-2005   #16
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Sorry, I didn't spot your corrected statement, Bob.

I agree - a fully "meshed" (all-to-all) link structure does produce losses on all existing pages for every new page that is added.

An all-to-all link structure can be likened to a family who sit down to dinner. There are 5 family members, and the dinner consists of potatoes and nothing else. There are 15 potatoes in the bowl - 3 potatoes for each person (they each brought 1 potato with them and the rest were provided by "meals on wheels", of course )

But a visitor arrives and sits down to eat with the family. The visitor brings 1 potato and puts it into the bowl. Now there are 16 potatoes to divide equally amongst the 6 people at the table. The result is that each of the 5 original family members gets less to eat than s/he would have had if the extra person hadn't arrived, even though there are more potatoes in the bowl.

If enough extra people arrive, each bringing only 1 potato, then the Toolbar potatoes for the original family members can even be decreased.

The formula for the calculation is:-

1 potato 2 potato 3 potato 4, 5 potato 6 potato 7 potato more

where 'more' is set at 0.85, and is the dampening factor (often called gravy) that prevents the potatoes from drying up and up and up.

Last edited by PhilC : 04-13-2005 at 01:57 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 04-13-2005   #17
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JohnW: >>>What benifits do you see with having higher PR on the home page as far as SEO goes<<< "I think we can all agree that getting good links from good pages enhances a pages “ability” (lets call this the authority score or PR) to rank for relevant keywords, and, to affect the authority score of other pages it links to."
I would agree that when real PR carried more weight in the ranking algo that is was a good thing to have high PR on a page, and as real PR may still carry some ranking weight it is still a good thing. But I think you would agree that if you are targetting 20 or so keywords you are not going to be in most cases targetting them all on the home page. If fact I would say in general 1 main keyword and perhaps 2 or 3 minor keywords targeted per page.

Therefore the idea of channelling real PR to the home page is not the way to do it. You would want to channel you real PR to the pages your have optimized for your keywords.

The idea of pumping the home page up high in real PR so it has a "authority score" and in then in some way that home page is to affected the "authority score" of the other pages linked to it is a concert that I have never read nor heard of.

I would think that real PR should be channelled to all the pages that you have optimized for keywords. Not just to the home page.

If the idea of channelling as much real PR as possible to the home page doesn't make SEO sense for the above reason then the idea that a site structure that bleeds real PR from the home page is faulty falls with it.

"So it seems obvious that there is a authority score of some kind, PR, whatever you want to call it, and that it is good to have more of it and bad to have less of it."
I would say that a site structure that bleeds the real PR off any page and it doesn't go to a page that you have optimized to rank is not good. I would not how ever hold that having a structure that bleeds real PR off the home page to other pages that are optimized to rank for keywords is a bad thing. I would say that is a good structure.

"That’s also why earlier, I said full mesh navigation where every page links to every page, is bad SEO."
If each page within that full mesh is optimized to rank for keywords I would disagree. You have 10 pages and they are all optimized for 2 or 3 keywords each, then you would want the real PR spread around evenly in most cases.

John I just think that the knee jerk reaction that bleeding real PR away from the home page is a bad thing is a faulty reaction. If real PR still has ranking weight it should be channelled to all pages you want to rank with.

Another issue is if you want to pick up the ranking weight of keyword in the URL you usually are not going to be able to do that on the home page. In such a case you are going to want to channel your PR to your this-is-my-may-keyword.html page not to the home page.

Last edited by bobmutch : 04-13-2005 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 04-13-2005   #18
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Oh PhilC you are just to funny. Through working with the PR forumla I found the best way to channel real PR to the home page and at the same time keep a workable navigation is to have 4 main pages fully meshed. Then run a link from those 4 main subs to all your other pages and have those pages link back to the home page only. Then have most of your links come in on your home page. I have done this with my site and it seems to have worked very well.
http://dir.google.com/Top/Computers/...ation_Firms/S/

Last edited by bobmutch : 04-13-2005 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 04-14-2005   #19
dannysullivan
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Let me preface my responses to say that, as always, I'm wary of depending on anything published by Google as proof of exactly how they actually operate. I'm especially wary of relying on the main paper about PageRank that was published years ago. Things have progressed since then. We know they don't count certain types of links. We strongly suspect they weight the PR value of some links depending on the position on a page and repetition as seen on multiple pages (nav links like we have on the left-hand side, looking the same, same anchor text, pointing to the same exact page simply might not be counted for as much).

Next, let me give you the perspective/response I've had when people tell me they are worried about PR "bleed" or losing PageRank by linking to their own pages or to other pages.

I've encountered this directly because at our conferences, Google will do its usual presentation on how classic PageRank calculation works, showing a page that links to five other pages, with each of those other pages getting 1/5th the value of the PageRank score that the page linking to them has. Now make that 25 links, and each link gets less of a share 1/25th.

That's classic PageRank. It says nothing that the page itself that's having all the outbound links is somehow leaking any type of its own PR score. Instead, it's an issue that if you are more selective about what you link to, you are able to better transmit what authority you have to share.

For the search marketer, this is why getting a link on a page with hundreds of links is probably not worthwhile. Each additional link means that all the links have to share less of the PR pie.

Internally, this means you might want to be more selective on how you link to your own pages. Got 1,000 pages? You could have every page carry links to all of them. Do that, and then each page will only pass on 1/1000th of its value to other pages. Be more selective, and you can have a bigger impact.

That's especially important with your home page, which is generally your most important page in the site, carrying the highest PR value. Link to all your pages, and you might be wasting an opportunity to transmit more importance to a few key pages that you are most worried about.

OK, from my view, something to sort of keep in mind but which shouldn't override the dominanting factor. Link to whatever pages you want to link to on your pages, and let what makes sense for your human visitors dictate that. It's bad to have upteen million links on your home page because you aren't giving your human visitor any type of guidance about what's important. Instead, list the stuff that is important -- and don't list everything. As people drill into the site, link to your own content and external content as it makes sense.

So -- does adding pages hurt your PR value? No. Just having more pages doesn't hurt anything, in any way, shape or form that I can see. Search engines don't even know whether you have more pages until they actually find them by following links, which leads to...

What is really meant is whether adding LINKS to your new pages (or other pages) will hurt your PR value. As said, I don't believe that having new links on a page will cause that page to drop in PR value with the key exception of whether Google considers the outbound link to a "bad neighborhood," in which it then might decide to penalize you. Fair to say, I think, this isn't a worry for the very vast majority of people.

Adding links potentially could hurt you in that dumping a ton on a page might cause the existing importance of links to your own pages that previously were there to get diminished/diluted. But then again, external links to those pages might carry a heavier weight. It's impossible to know exactly what might happen. Fair to say, adding a ton of links to any page is probably bad from a human reader perspective, so don't do it at least for that.

Quote:
Both these examples really only show us that if you throw enough links at your home page you can off set the real PR bleed to a large number of inside pages.
I don't agree, sorry. You're making it sound like it's unusual for a site to have inbound links. Yep, SEW has a lot of them. But with any site, inbound links could offset any type of PR bleed you want to lay claim to. As said, I don't feel the page itself bleeds any PR score just by outbound linking, of course. But let's say this is indeed the case. So you've got bleed when you link to more of your pages -- but the degree of that might be minimal, might be offset by inbound links from external pages, might be severe or might change tomorrow.

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I don't know where you are getting the idea what I or anyone has stated linking back to the home page is not a good think to do if the objective is to have high PR on the home page. Common sense tells us that is a good thing to do.
It came from this:

Quote:
I have yet to find a site structure that has inbound links to the home page where you can add pages in the site with out bleeding real PR from the home and or sub pages.
That pretty much made me think you were saying there was no way to have a site that links back to its home page AND adds new pages AND DOES NOT bleed PR. And as said, I've already pointed out SEW and Amazon as just two examples where I think you have a site structure that allows exactly this and which does not hurt the PR score of the home page. If the argument is that inbound links are what offsets that, OK -- but that means any site might have inbound links that could do a similar offset.

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the issue that is being discussed as I see it is that the more pages you add to your site (with no change in the real PR vote to your home page by IBL's) the real PR will be voted and retained by those new pages during a real PR update. This will decrease the real PR on the home page in most cases, and will decrease the real PR on the home page and main sub pages in all cases.
So if all things were frozen in time (which never happens, but I'll roll with it), you add more pages to your site (and correspondingly, more links to those pages from within your site in some type of manner) and thus will cause the internal PR you were totally in control of to be more diluted. OK, maybe that will decrease the PR. Maybe not.

Did you add links to every page? Were the links in navigational areas that might have been ignored? Is Google already ignoring or discounting your internal linking? Did you add new links but perhaps remove some other ones? Were the pages even linking to your home page? All of this and more can have an impact -- and the inbound links are not a factor that freezes in time. They are a factor that potentially far outweights your own internal linkage.

So my worry is that this started with this statement:

Quote:
The fact of the matter is the more pages you add to your site the more real PR (and hence toolbar PR) is voted away from your home page.
That leaves a newbie thinking "oh no," I'd better not add any new pages -- if I do, that's going to hurt me. I don't think that's a fact at all. Indeed, if you're adding good new pages, those pages might attract good new inbound links, which themselves will transmit importance to your other pages based on linking patterns.

That statement came after this, of course:

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Completely impossible. The idea that you can generate toolbar PR from lots of internal links is a complete myth.
And I think that's a point well taken, which puts the earlier statement in better context. I want a high PR score for my home page. Can I just add a bunch of pages and link back to myself to get it? My view is probably not. Those new pages won't have much importance to transmit, if they haven't gained many links to them to begin with. In addition, I strongly feel Google will downplay the value of internal links specifically to prevent people from just whipping up a bunch to get a high PR score. So no, I don't think adding new pages will magically get you a PR spike. But I would add new pages if you've got good content and reason to do them -- and down the line, I'd argue those pages could benefit you overall.
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Old 04-14-2005   #20
PhilC
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I agree that the original PR equation has probably changed since it was published, but I don't agree that it has changed in such a fundamental way as to take account of such things as weighting the PR value of some links. I'm not saying that they don't that; I'm saying that I doubt that they do it because, imo, there are better places to weight certain types of links than in the PR calculations.

Also, remember that Google didn't publish that "main paper about PageRank". It was published by two college kids who had no intention of starting their own search engine at the time. It was part of their college work, so their is no reason to suspect it as being not entirely true. Later they tried to sell their technology, but nobody wanted it, so they started their own engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannysullivan
Can I just add a bunch of pages and link back to myself to get it? My view is probably not.
Actually, you can. The more pages you have in the site, the more PageRank there is in the site, and the more there is to channel to wherever you want it. But it takes an awful lot of new pages to change the Toolbar PR of the target page. I once added over 20,000 pages to a site, which took the home page from PR4 to PR6. I don't know where the thresholds were because the new pages were genuine and I wasn't looking to see how many were needed. And, of course, I had no idea whether the home page started as a strong PR4 or a weak one.

This discussion is about the technicalities of PageRank, but I think the most important thing that should come out of it is *not* to be too concerned about PageRank. It is probably still a small ranking factor, and it doesn't hurt to take account of it, but there are far better ways of moving up the rankings than chasing every ounce of PageRank. Unfortunately, PageRank is still an unreasonably big thing in many people's minds.
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