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Old 03-15-2005   #1
inthedark
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Does google attempt to put terms in context?

One for the experts here:

How intelligent is google when putting terms in the correct context?

As an example, If I have a page about wristwatches, "Wristwatches" is in the page title, H1's, Links to the site, etc..

I then add a link on my site with the anchor text "Citizen"

Will google "understand" that the link is for Citizen wristwatches and not "becoming a US citizen" or something else that could be imagined when not putting the anchor in context

or..

does google need the anchor to say "Citizen wristwatches" to "get it"?

Thanks,
Frank
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Old 03-15-2005   #2
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Interesting question. I'm as interested in any answers as you are.

Off the top of my head....

Google attributes link text to the target page - it's as though the text is on the page. So it seems to me that the page will come up for "citizen wristwatches", though not highly because the words are not adjacent or even in close proximity. The page will is also likely to come up for "US citizen", though it may not make it into the top 1000.

However, to target "citizen wristwatches" you really need to be fully targeting it on the page and in the link text, if for no other reason but that other people are doing it, and you have to compete with them.
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Old 03-15-2005   #3
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so the algorithm does not, for example:

1. Take terms the important page elements (title, headers, inbound link text, etc) contain and assign the page to a "neighborhood" (the subset of webpages focused on wristwatches)

2. Attempt to see if onpage anchor text forms meaningful terms (when combined with onpage elements) based upon commonly used terms in that neighborhood

3. If the term then becomes meaningful given the context frequently used in that subset of the web you are assigned to, give your page weight for that term (citizen wristwatches) even though it is not explicit?

ty
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Old 03-15-2005   #4
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Not to my knowledge it doean't. Google has a number of patents for various methods of ranking pages, and people usually trot them out when a significant change occurs in the rankings. I've done it myself. But I haven't seen anyone produce compelling evidence that any of them are actually being used. I think that people tend to absorb these things over time, and eventually assume that they must be implemented by now. That's the way I see it, anyway

It seems to me that the "neighborhoods" idea is along those lines.

I don't know if your question is to do with your planned optimization but, if it is, I would suggest sticking to what's known to work right now - on and off page optimization for specific searchterms. If the neighborhoods idea is actually in use, then putting the whole searchterm on and off the page will make sure that the page isn't overlooked.
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Old 03-15-2005   #5
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I just really not want to qualify all of the anchor text on my pages with "wristwatches" (page is not about watches but you get the idea) as it makes the page look silly to a person
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Old 03-15-2005   #6
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I understand what you mean. A long list of "<this city> hotels", "<that city> hotels", "<another city> hotels", etc. doesn't look very nice, but it's what many people do.

If the topics are not all that competitive, you could try it out the way you described - just the suitable words in the list of links (e.g. "citizen"), but optimize each target page for the full phrase, and make sure that there is some text about "watches" around the links.
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Old 03-15-2005   #7
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As for your example by having the anchor text Citizen and making your main keyword on the site as Citizen Wristwatches is totally normal. What will happen is Google will give you credit for the keyword "Citizen" and as long as you have that keyword on the page which you are targeting it to it will rank both "Citizen" and "Citizen Wristwatches".

Now what you should try and do is also have some links on your website pointing to that page contain the anchor text "Citizen Wristwatches" also the inbound links which you are getting from other sites should ready "Citizen Wristwatches" and if you have a large number of links comming from other sites then you should switch those up to so that they are not ALL the same. So have some that have "Citizen" and some that have "Citizen Wristwatches" within the anchortext.

My 2 cents
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Old 03-15-2005   #8
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makes sense...also all of the threads I see with people complaining that they rank 1000 for a term even though they have it in their anchor text 100 times and in thousands of incoming links and the #1 serp does not mention the term at all or in any of their links gives hope that there are other ways to gain relevance :-)
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Old 03-16-2005   #9
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Try a little test. Surround a few inbound links with kw's in text that are not related to the anchor text of the link. Wait 2-3 months and watch what happens. ;-)

PS, I don't know if this means that they 'understand' ... in fact I'm fairly certain they don't. But it means that the algo not only takes note of in-proximity terms, but measures their importance, and includes them in rankings determinations.
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Old 03-16-2005   #10
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Never underestimate the power of Google

I personally think that should be their slogan hehe, aside from that note I believe Google has the knowledge and the ability to associate words with other to almost any extent.

Their skilled group of developers and the vast large amounts of data provides them with that ability. When we look at what Google is currently doing within their labs we have the Site-Flavored Google Search which is currently in beta testing. This tool allows you to enter a domain name and by using the data pulled from that site it places you in a pre-populated category.

They may already have this technology implemented within the search engine but from my research they "DO NOT' apply it to their BL's.

My 2 cents.
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Old 03-16-2005   #11
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What I find interesting was all the past speculation on Latent Semantic Analysis recently. What inthedark os referring to, is a lot like LSA/LSI.

If you look at the thread, our PhD's at the forum all conclude that it would be impractical for Google or any other engines, at this time, to deploy LSI. It would just be too computational to do so.

But what i want you to do is try Google Suggest out. Type in "citizen", as you start typing it in, it will suggest popular searches. You will notice that the 3rd suggestion is, in fact, citizen watches. Makes you wonder, of course, the computational requirements of looking at each term on a document, and figuring out "suggested" words would be huge.
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Old 03-16-2005   #12
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by inthedark
One for the experts here:

How intelligent is google when putting terms in the correct context?
There is no true intelligence involved in Google's analysis of relationships between text on different pages. If they find the word "citizen" on Page A and the word "Citizen" on Page B, they may decide the pages are similar if they share other words.

A link from Page A to Page B need not use the word "Citizen" in the anchor text for that relationship to be established.

Google determines the relevance of a page to specific keywords on the basis of numerous criteria (linking relationships are only one of those criteria). In determining a relationship between two pages, it also looks for relevance between the pages.

Here is an example:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=horse

I searched for "horse". The highest result (at this time) is the listing for Dark Horse Comics. If you click on the Similar Pages link, you'll get:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...rkhorse. com/

Dark Horse Comics comes in first, but you'll also see Marvel, DC, Fantagraphics, etc.

These guys are NOT linking to Dark Horse. But they DO include the word "horse" in their content, and they ARE comic book companies.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...cs.co m+horse

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...el.com+ horse

You can look at the second result in my original search (at this time, horseweb.com) and note a similar relevance between it and its "Similar Sites". In this case, Google brings up horse directories, guides, etc. which do not link to horseweb.com.

Google seems to be capable of establishing that a site is or is not a directory, and it may be capable of other types of categorization. The categorization helps them to cluster sites together as "similar" to one another, and it seems to be driven in part by both on-page content (shared keywords that are not necessarily used together) and content organization.
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Old 03-16-2005   #13
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I wrote a blog entry covering this thread. Later on, randfish commented on my entry mentioning a thread at SEO Chat where he summarizes an 11 minute presenation given by "Jeff Dean, a former Univ. of Washington student and current Google search technology employee", the video can be downloaded at rand's blog. Pretty much explains how Google can use clustering to make this happen, very interesting video, btw.
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Old 03-17-2005   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustybrick
What I find interesting was all the past speculation on Latent Semantic Analysis recently. What inthedark os referring to, is a lot like LSA/LSI.
I don't think I am referring to LSI which, as I understand it is more of a synonym for synonyms :-) -- one example I read on this board being baby clothes, infant outfits, etc all essentially being the same

I am wondering if google uses AI (I tend to agree with the strong AI argument more than the weak) to determine the meaning of a word based upon its context (ie, the page it is on, who links to that page, who links to you, words in the title)

I suppose LSI is a part of this as if you explain something in a fews ways deriving context becomes easier

However, I also posted this question in another forum and then clicked on a sig link on another thread there that pretty much told me google is not doing this (or at least, not well)

http://www.seo-scoop.com

Why has adsense taken the word "scoop" out of context here and decided to display ads for ice cream?

They were actually displaying baskin robbins ads yesterday, dont see those today, but see one for a cuisinart ice cream maker
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Old 03-17-2005   #15
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Since this thread has attracted the interest of those who appear to be SEO experts (have a high PR page about SEO) I will talk about my specific issue...

Here is the story:
-I am a commodity trader and computer geek, so naturally I started a hobby page about software for commodity trading at www commodity-trading-software com

-The term "commodity trading" means different things in different circles
-The most common meaning is "one who speculates in commodities". Akin to stock trading (say trading Goog stock as a speculator), I think most people understand this given the large number of day traders that surfaced during the dot com boom
-To be 100% technically correct I should use the term "commodity futures trading" as the only way to trade commodities publicly is through futures contracts, but no one uses that term outside of academia...everyone says "commodity trading"
-Commodity trading can also mean the large scale buying and selling of a physical commodity (not necessarily a futures contract on the commodity) done by corporations. Crude oil is a commodity. Exxon trades crude oil and uses software to do so. Exxon would also call the software apps "Commodity Trading Software".

-Now, the software applications small speculators use for commodity trading are very different than the software Exxon uses. They are both termed "commodity trading software" in their respective circles.

My question boils down to will Google, and other SEs, see that I link out to all the apps that small specs use, I have articles on speculation in commodities, brokers for speculative trading of commodity futures link to me, therefore "Commodity Trading Software" at my page refers to software for the speculative trading of commodity futures

and not

Large scale, back end trading systems used by Exxon for Oil, or say Maxwell House for coffee.

ty
Frank

Last edited by inthedark : 03-17-2005 at 02:20 PM.
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