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Old 02-19-2005   #1
newreality
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duplicate pgs vs many links to same pg.

I'm in a situation with a site having many forms. These forms are mostly one step away from the home page.

There at 270+ seperate links to the same form (links of different names, each link passing different variables to the forms) and with 30 or 40 on a single page at times.

My question is, with this # of links to the same form is it better to save the form with different file extensions or to have all links all going to the same form? (assuming that I'm not optimizing)

Is the worst thing that could happen if multiple saved page(s) are seen as duplicated content by the search engines; that these pages only won't get indexed? It wouldn't hurt my other pages would it?

But what could happen if far too many links lead to the same page/form?
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Old 02-20-2005   #2
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i would recommend just creating 1 if possible. what do you gain by creating many?
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Old 02-20-2005   #3
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i would recommend just creating 1 if possible. what do you gain by creating many?
If having only 1 could be a possible danger, which is my main concern, when having so many links leading to the single page, avoiding that. (Also if done in seperate pages each individual page could contain its own product number/variable that is inserted into the database table. So there would not be a concern about passing variables on a rather complex structure - more ease of design).

I've seen a competitor optimize form pages on 275+ form pages, with probably less than 5% text variation page to page. These pages are coming up under Google, very top serps. Must be their link recips going into the millions. Of course they're also funnneling traffic from dozens of sites.

As a one man show I probably haven't the time to optimize this number of form pages.
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Old 02-21-2005   #4
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I think a large part of the potential problem is intent, which may not be clear and easy for robots and editors alike to be able to understand.

IMHO if you do go the multi page route you do not necissarily need to optimize those pages... just get enough link popularity into your site and those pages should rank well. plus you can pull that data from a database right?

I think another thing you need to look at is the user of your site. if they land on those contact forms or whatever do those pages provide enough info to actually convert?

many well known SEOs recommend creating various pages for slightly difference audience and query types, but you usually want to keep the end user in mind.
http://searchengineblog.com/columns/...timisation.htm
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Old 02-21-2005   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newreality
I've seen a competitor optimize form pages on 275+ form pages, with probably less than 5% text variation page to page. These pages are coming up under Google, very top serps. Must be their link recips going into the millions. Of course they're also funnneling traffic from dozens of sites.
Multiple pages allow you to optimize for multiple phrases or variations on those phrases. That is classic search engine spamming.

And, no, I seriously doubt they have millions of links. You get to the top on content, not on links, despite what many people believe.

Links will break a tie in an otherwise evenly matched distribution of documents relevant to a searcher's query.
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Old 02-21-2005   #6
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Originally Posted by Michael Martinez
Multiple pages allow you to optimize for multiple phrases or variations on those phrases. That is classic search engine spamming.
if the search engines did not exist people would still
- create similar documents targeted at different personality types and different motivators / personal triggers
- create similar documents with different marketing strategies to target different consumer bases.
- create similar documents in different languages or with slang to target different people.

the myth of the single ideal searcher or web user is just that. a myth

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And, no, I seriously doubt they have millions of links. You get to the top on content, not on links, despite what many people believe.
it is not either or and to say one is all that matters and the other is just a tie breaker is intentionally misleading or naive.
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Old 02-21-2005   #7
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And, no, I seriously doubt they have millions of links
Michael don't know what makes you doubt but they do have millions. Only I'd rather not name them.

Too their links are very well organized, overlapping and several layers deep.
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Old 02-21-2005   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seobook
if the search engines did not exist people would still
- create similar documents targeted at different personality types and different motivators / personal triggers
- create similar documents with different marketing strategies to target different consumer bases.
- create similar documents in different languages or with slang to target different people.
I never saw content like that back in 1975 and 1976, when I was first getting onto the Web (and when the Web was small enough for people to rely upon their bookmarks and Yahoo!).

I'm not interested in a single idea surfer. But before you start creating content for different personality types, you need to get those personality types to visit your Web site.

Most people are relying on the search engines to do that, and the ones who create numerous doorways are going after the search terms people use, not their personalities.
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Old 02-21-2005   #9
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Originally Posted by newreality
Michael don't know what makes you doubt but they do have millions. Only I'd rather not name them.

Too their links are very well organized, overlapping and several layers deep.
Yes, well, I can point you to a very few sites that actually have millions of backlinks. I have about 40-50,000 backlinks myself.

And I know where they come from. Most inbound links for large sites come from those sites themselves. People get all anxious about earning links from other sites and they don't understand how important internal linkage can be.

Trust me. Unless your site is named Google, or Yahoo!, or Microsoft, CNN, or NBC, or something like that, you aren't likely to ever have millions of sites linking to you. You CAN create millions of links to yourself. There are numerous large document archives out there which do just that. Many old Web forums with a million pages or more of archived discussion also have millions of links.

So, I cannot say you're right or wrong without knowing what site you are referring to, but I can say that most of the sites with millions of links are huge archives that link to themselves internally.

That is no big deal.

Most sites don't need many links to rank well. I don't know about your situation. If I were going up against Yahoo! or Google or Microsoft, then I would probably want at least a million links in my ballpark before getting started.

Last edited by Michael Martinez : 02-21-2005 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 02-21-2005   #10
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Actually they have more links than microsoft and cnn. I really don't think this is a matter trust. If the numbers are there, they're simply there.

Do you really think I want to hear my most major competitor has links in the millions?
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Old 02-21-2005   #11
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Don't know what to tell you. Just looking at your forum name, I guessed what industry you might be in. Typing in a fairly generic search phrase, I came up with a list of domains, one of which seems to share your name.

Checking backlinks on Google, I don't find anyone (outside of the group I mentioned above) with a million of them, much less more than Microsoft's 8 million.

The most popular one I found was a sub-domain of Yahoo!, with 1.6 million backlinks.

However, many of those backlinks seem to be coming from dynamic pages filtering search engine results and offering a lot of paid advertisements.

If you're competing with Yahoo!, forget it. You don't stand a chance, as far as creating 1.7 million credible backlinks goes.

If you want to compete with whomever is generating all the pseudo-directory listings, well, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

There are a handful of industries which are notorious for search engine spam. Yours is one of them. You have to have a lot of big guns on your side to clear a path to the top.

It's a vicious, cut-throat field of continuous battle for some people.
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Old 02-21-2005   #12
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Don't know what to tell you. Just looking at your forum name, I guessed what industry you might be in. Typing in a fairly generic search phrase, I came up with a list of domains, one of which seems to share your name.
Huh? You mean the forum name? You're guessing my business based on my forum handle? Well you certainly use groundbreaking methods.

Quote:
There are a handful of industries which are notorious for search engine spam. Yours is one of them.
This is confusing. And clear at the same time. Are you saying you "can tell" what business I'm in? Now I'm not saying this can't be done, in fact it probably can, but would you care to reveal what line of business I am in?

One omission on my part, and I do apologize since most take backlinks to mean Google automatically, is that these are backlinks based on Yahoo.
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Old 02-21-2005   #13
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Originally Posted by newreality
Huh? You mean the forum name? You're guessing my business based on my forum handle? Well you certainly use groundbreaking methods.

This is confusing. And clear at the same time. Are you saying you "can tell" what business I'm in? Now I'm not saying this can't be done, in fact it probably can, but would you care to reveal what line of business I am in?
I can only make a guess, and statistically it's not a very good method for figuring out what people do.

My guess is only as good as whatever connection you made between your forum name and your business.

I guessed "real estate".

Quote:
One omission on my part, and I do apologize since most take backlinks to mean Google automatically, is that these are backlinks based on Yahoo.
Well, if you're not in Real Estate, then I don't have any way of checking your numbers. I am not seeing any significant difference in Yahoo! from Google, except that the reported backlinks for the sites I checked are fewer, not greater.


LOL! I just looked at your name more closely. I only just now saw the "i". You're not NEWREALTY, but New Reality!

Oh well!
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Old 02-22-2005   #14
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Originally Posted by Michael Martinez
But before you start creating content for different personality types, you need to get those personality types to visit your Web site.

Most people are relying on the search engines to do that, and the ones who create numerous doorways are going after the search terms people use, not their personalities.
I agree that effective SEO's used to create doorways for particular keywords. However that is not enough now that SE's have advanced. It is almost too transparent, unlike 3 years ago when this strategy may have worked. Now the content and "perceived target" has become much more important.

One client we have is targeting a particular industry related to many aspects of personal hygiene. This client will have different sites that target many of the same keywords; however, they are modified differently with terms such as “African American,” or “Asian.” I know this is slightly different, but I would think the same could be said for “personalities” as demographics in relation to the ability to narrow down a target market. Will this client do better having a million links pointing to the “mother site,” or will the 25-30 niche sites working together do better than the sub domain of Yahoo! That you mention? We shall see within a few months…
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