Can Adding Pages To A Site Cause A Drop In Toolbar PR?

[bobmutch]

My position is that adding pages to site "can" cause a drop in the toolbar PR. I am breaking this question off from the Examining Reasons Why Page Rank Can Drop or Change thread and want to open it up for discuss so the above thread will not hijacked by this issue and also to give this question a post title and expost it to more input.


For an example. When page5 is added by a 2 ways link to page1 of a 4 page site where the pages are all toolbar PR8 (in this example page1 has 4 PR9s pointed at it) the addition of real PR of 1 that is added to the site by page5, doesn't offset the voted real PR from page1 that is retain by page5 and not voted by page1 to the other 3 pages.

The more pages you add the more real PR that is voted to and retained by these new pages. As you add each additional page the real PR value drops on the original 4 pages and at some point the real PR value that was once within the toolbar PR8 range now falls to the toolbar PR7 range and on the next toolbar PR update your original 4 pages will have a toolbar PR7 not 8.

Where do the PR Experts stand on this one?

Note: I changed the above example slightly to make for clarity.

[Marcia]

Where do the PR Experts stand on this one?

They are in Mountain View and they are not telling.

I personally don't think the overall total PR of a site is all that important, but how the PageRank is distributed throughout a site. No, adding pages to a site will NOT diminish the PR of the homepage one iota as far as I'm concerned. It's how the internal site navigation is handled that will determine the PR of the interior pages.

When a page is added to a 4 page site where the pages are all toolbar PR8 the addition of real PR of 1 that is added to the site, doesn't offset the transfer of real PR from the other 4 pages to this new page.

Huh? The addition of what for how much?

[bobmutch]

Marcia: "Huh? The addition of what for how much?."

I used for an example adding 1 page to a 4 page site where each of the 4 pages has a toolbar PR8. Each page you add to your site adds the real PR value of 1 to the site. But when that page is added the other pages that are linked to that page will vote some of there PR to that new page. The over all result will be that the site has increased in real PR by 1 but the 4 original pages will decrease in real PR as some of the real PR those 4 pages have will be voted to the new page.

[Marcia]

Each page you add to your site adds the real PR value of 1 to the site.

That's the concept that I think is problematic. How are you defining "real PR value"? And adding a page adds 1 to what?

To be honest, I think someone with a PR4 site could take that to mean that if they have a PR4, adding a page will add 1 and make it a PR5, which is hogwash, even though some may interpret it that way.

Can Adding Pages To A Site Cause A Drop In Toolbar PR?

Adding pages to a site will cause the PR of *which page* to drop? The homepage or another one? Let's be perfectlyl clear if we're propogating an assumption.

My position is that adding pages to site "can" cause a drop in the toolbar PR.

Again - a drop for which page? Frankly, I don't think that adding pages to a site will cause the homepage PR to drop. I think that's carrying "PR leak" a bit too far and is an erroneous assumption based on a severely flawed supposition.

[Dave Hawley]

If this were true, which I don't believe for a moment, why do sites like this one, my site and hundreds of thousands of others that have active forums (some adding a thousand+ new pages per day), not constantly lose home page PR?

Can Adding Pages To A Site Cause A Drop In Toolbar PR?

No.

[Mel]

While I agree that you can postulate situations where this might happen, this should not be intrepreted as a general rule.

In general adding more pages gives you more PR to distribute around your site, and if you pay attention to your internal site linkage, your important pages should show a small rise in PR, though it probably cannot be measured by coarse tools like the toolbar.

If you choose to ignore or mismanage your internal site linking it should be readily apparent that it is not the added pages that are causing the PR drop, its the webmaster.

But if we are discussing something as trivial as can I postulate certain situations, where in unique circumstances thus and such might happen, then I suspect the greater good would be served by simply closing the thread.

[Anthony Parsons]

Bob, are you maybe getting confused with the value of addition vs. the placement of a page?

If a page is placed within folders, of folders of folders, then each time it reduces to the new page for how far the page is away from the homepage in depth, but not how many pages are included. That is a Google thing anyway on how they derived page importance, not about numbers. You must keep the thinking on track that it is relative to each page, nothing more. How Google parse it internally and dilute it is no more than what we know, ref mentioned above, how far away it from the homepage. It is based on links. Links go up, PageRank goes up. Links go down, PageRank goes down. As mentioned about the internal linking structure.

You must remember how PageRank is derived! Backlinks! Do the math on the algorithm by adding pages to a site, then getting their true PR value that Google assigns, then using that within the equation, and your actual PR should begin to rise under normal circumstances. Mathematically speaking.

[dannysullivan]

I used for an example adding 1 page to a 4 page site where each of the 4 pages has a toolbar PR8. Each page you add to your site adds the real PR value of 1 to the site.

Not to my understanding. Search engines, every time I ask them on this, continue to say that ranking is done on a page-by-page basis. With Google, this means your entire site doesn't have a PR score. Your home page does. Potentially, it should be possible to find a site where an internal page has a higher PR score than the home page.

[steve sardell]

adding pages to a site will NOT diminish the PR of the homepage one iota as far as I'm concerned...I don't think that adding pages to a site will cause the homepage PR to drop... I think that's carrying "PR leak" a bit too far

Bob, IMHO Marcia has nailed it. When you add new site pages, you may find some interior pages do lose PR. This , however, is not due to the fact the new pages have been added, but rather there is a fixed amount of home page PR to be passed.The addition of the new page diminishes the amount passed from the home page to each interior page. I do not see how this will mathematically affect the home page's PR.

[bobmutch]

Marcia: "How are you defining "real PR value"? And adding a page adds 1 to what?"
Real PR is the PR that is used for Ranking weight, the PR that one page votes to another page. Went I stated "real PR value" I am refering to the real PR value that each page starts out with which is 1.

"I think someone with a PR4 site could take that to mean that if they have a PR4, adding a page will add 1 and make it a PR5"
The only people that will do that is those that don't understand the difference between real PR and toolbar PR.

"Adding pages to a site will cause the PR of *which page* to drop?"
In the example that I used it it will cause the real PR of all the pages to drop even if it is only linked to anyone of the 4 pages only.

"I don't think that adding pages to a site will cause the homepage PR to drop. I think that's carrying "PR leak" a bit too far and is an erroneous assumption based on a severely flawed supposition."
I will explain how this happens. In my original example the site has 4 pages fully meshed. When page5 is added to the site and it is linked to page1 this page5 will now receive 1/4 of the real PR that Page1 has available to vote. The other 3 pages that before were getting each 1/3rd of the available PR Page1 has to vote will now only get 1/4th of the available real PR that Page1 votes.

While page5 will vote part of the real PR that is voted from Page1 back it retains a portions of it.

The additonal real PR of 1 that Page5 starts with will have no bearing on the matter as the real PR of a PR8 is some where in the milllions.

Marcia I also changed the description of the orgainal example so it is clearly. Thanks for pointing this out. Sometimes I forget people can't read my mind : )

Dave: "why do sites like this one, my site and hundreds of thousands of others that have active forums (some adding a thousand+ new pages per day), not constantly lose home page PR? "
Because the 1000's of pages are not linked to the home page. They are linked a general forms page.

Mel: "In general adding more pages gives you more PR to distribute around your site"
A new page only has a real PR of 1. In the over all scheme of things that is nothing when it comes to a site that has toolbar PR8 pages. The idea that you can increase toolbar PR by adding pages to your site is a myth. Unless of course you don't have any inbound links and you are trying to get a toolbar PR1.

Anthony: "Bob, are you maybe getting confused with the value of addition vs. the placement of a page?" Not at all. As noted in my above answer to Marcia even if you add a page and don't fully mesh it with all pages it is going to "drain" real PR from the other 4 pages.

"You must remember how PageRank is derived! Backlinks! Do the math on the algorithm by adding pages to a site, then getting their true PR value that Google assigns, then using that within the equation, and your actual PR should begin to rise under normal circumstances. Mathematically speaking."
I am very clear on how real PR is voted to a page. I have done the math using the algorithm when a new page is added to a site. In the above sample to Marcia I clearly noted that the new page has a real PR of 1 but it will receive 1/4 of the real PR available voted from Page1 but retains a certian amount when it votes back to Page1.

The other 3 pages in the site will now only get 1/4th of the available voted PR from Page1 where they were getting 1/3rd before the addition of page5. Yes real PR will rise if is you are looking at the total real PR all 5 pages have. But only by real PR of 1.

While the total real PR of all 5 pages raises by one this total real PR is now divided (not equally as the page that has the inbounds links providing the real PR will always be higher than the other pages) by 5 pages instead of 4 pages. The results will be that the orgainal 4 pages now have less real PR.

As you continue to add pages there will come a time when the real PR is diluted from the orginial 4 pages to the point where the real PR value they have will no longer be in the toolbar PR8 range and one or more of the orginial 4 pages real PR will drop into the range that is covered by the toolbar PR7.

dannysullivan: "Not to my understanding. Search engines, every time I ask them on this, continue to say that ranking is done on a page-by-page basis."
I agree that each page is ranked on a page by page basis.
But when people start claiming that you can increase the toolbar PR of your site by adding pages we have to look at the site as a whole and see what is happening when pages are added. Ian Rogers and Phil Cavens good articles, diagrams and calculations show how this works very clearly.


"Potentially, it should be possible to find a site where an internal page has a higher PR score than the home page."
In fact my on my seocompany.ca site the seo-tools.html internal page has a higher toolbar PR than my home page because I have lots of inbound links coming to that page and I have seen other sites in my travels that are the same.

Steve Sardell: "When you add new site pages, you may find some interior pages do lose PR."
I am not discussing interior pages. In my sample I have used a very simple 4 page site with a fully meshed link structure. I maintain when a page with a 2 way link is added to any of those 4 pages that all pages will have a drop in real PR.

Note:
I would like to state that the voting and passing of real PR and the changes in value don't happen real time. This all happens when a PR update is done. When a real PR update is done the real PR values change and when a toolbar PR update is done the toolbar PR changes. These used to both be done monthly but it looks like the toolbar PR update is gone quartely while the real PR update is still done monthly in my opinion.

[Dave Hawley]

Bob, over the course of the last year I have added at least 500 static URL pages all of which link to my Home page. This has at least doubled the size of my site, excluding the forum. In the last year I would been about static on incoming links and PR being passed, but I will err on the side of caution and say I have got an increase of 1-2 on my Toolbar PR.

My home page Toolbar PR was 5 it is now 7. How can this be, if adding pages that link to the home page, reduce Toolbar PR? This is not accounting for the fact that my Forum has added over 15,000 pages all which have a link to my home page in the header.

[Mel]

Sorry Bob but you are terribly confused on this issue.

First off you don't know what the real PR value of any page is, you are only guessing at it and calculations done using guessed at values are worthless when it comes to using the results thereof to prove something, especially when these guessed at values may be off by many orders of magnitude.

All we know is that the average of all PR values is one, and this being the case when a page is added to a site it is adding an average value equal to most other pages on the web. Note that this also implies that the average value of most web pages indexed by Google is less than one, not in the millions or billions. Thus the range of True PR could be in the range of 0 to 10 or it could be in the range of 0 to ten billion, we have no way of knowing except to guess.

As I have stated repeatedly in this thread, the PR value of any page on a site is a combination of the number and PR value of inbound links, plus the way this PR is managed internally within the site.

As a stupid example, but IMO just as valid as yours, let me assume that I have a one page site with a true PR value of one due to an inbound link and I then add another page and link that page to and from the home page. The PR value of the first page will now increase. Were I to follow your example I could now say that this proves that adding Pages to a site increases PR, but I won't go that far.

Your example assumption of a 4 page site with PR8 pages is so far from average that I have to question that as a unbiased example, but certainly using an unlikely site such as this together with calculations based on guessed at values proves exactly nothing.

Sorry to be so blunt Bob, but it seems the only way to get the point across clearly.

[bobmutch]

Mel: You have the right to your opinion and if you want to think that others that differ with you are "terribly confused" fill your boots. While I personally don't think you are terribly confused I will give you a heads up for what ever it is worth to you. If you start following around all my threads and make it your duty to correct me where ever you can and start with your "terribly confused" attacks on this forum you will find yourself on ignore the same way I have had to put you on ignore on 3 other forums where you followed my threads around taking a wack where ever you could.

I am here to help and learn. I disagree with many positions you take and not only your positions but the positions that others take also. I have never felt the need to tell people they are out to lunch, don't know what they are talking about, that they are terribly confused or other such language. In my opinion you have alot of head knowledge are well read and your are an asset on what ever forum you visit. I welcome any constructive posts from you but I will not respond to deriding posts.

[bobmutch]

Dave: "Bob, over the course of the last year I have added at least 500 static URL pages all of which link to my Home page."Ok will that will certianly not bleed any PR away from your site. I am talking about adding 2 way links to the home page. Not just pointing links to your home page.

"if adding pages that link to the home page, reduce Toolbar PR?" You may want to read abit closer. I have never forwarded this view.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by bobmutch

Mel: You have the right to your opinion and if you want to think that others that differ with you are "terribly confused" fill your boots. While I personally don't think you are terribly confused I will give you a heads up for what ever it is worth to you. If you start following around all my threads and make it your duty to correct me where ever you can and start with your "terribly confused" attacks on this forum you will find yourself on ignore the same way I have had to put you on ignore on 3 other forums where you followed my threads around taking a wack where ever you could.

I am here to help and learn. I disagree with many positions you take and not only your positions but the positions that others take also. I have never felt the need to tell people they are out to lunch, don't know what they are talking about, that they are terribly confused or other such language. In my opinion you have alot of head knowledge are well read and your are an asset on what ever forum you visit. I welcome any constructive posts from you but I will not respond to deriding posts.

Then by all means respond to the facts posted in my provious post:

1. You do not know the true PR of any page, nor do you know how the toolbar PR is arrived at.
True or false?
2. The average PR of all pages on the web is one.
True or false?
3. The math in my one page going to two pages site is correct.
True or false?

By all means put me on ignore, which you have effectively done by failing to respond to anything but the confused comment in my last post, but I will continue to point out errors and misconceptions whenever I feel that it is in the best interest of the forum and its viewers to do so. I do not think that all who disagree with me are terribly confused Bob, only that you are on this particular topic.

[bobmutch]

Mel: Consider yourself on ignore then. I am interested in constuctive conversations.

[Dave Hawley]

Ok Bob, but it still doesn't add up. I have, in addition to what I stated, I also added a top level type site map to my home page. Why hasn't this done as you say? In other words, my home page has more link to inner pages now than 12 months ago. Are you also saying that if I removed 95% of these, my home page toolbar PR would increase?

I bet I could add another 100 links (Of course I wont though) and and no Toolbar PR drop would occur.

[bobmutch]

Dave: I haven't stated that adding pages to your home page will reduce your toolbar PR every time. I stated that it "can" reduce your home page toolbar PR. I have stated that it does reduce your home page real PR.
[doesn't corrected]

No I didn't say or don't hold that in all cases adding pages or reducing pages will change the toolbar PR. It will how ever change the real PR.

You have added another 100 pages to the home page and have no toolbar PR drop? What is your URL.

[Dave Hawley]

I state that it can reduce your home page toolbar PR

Yes I know and I don't see this happening based on what I stated.

BTW, you are now saying something about adding pages to the home page. How on earth is that done?

I state that it can reduce your home page toolbar PR. I have stated that it doesn't reduce your home page real PR.

Followed by;

No I didn't say or don't hold that in all cases adding pages or reducing pages will change the toolbar PR. It will how ever change the real PR.

You have lost me Bob. No matter though as I really cannot see any point in this anyway. Carry on without me Bob....please.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by bobmutch

[b]... I state that it can reduce your home page toolbar PR. I have stated that it doesn't reduce your home page real PR...

This is what I mean about confused, there must be a relationship between Real PR and Toobar PR even if we don't know what it is, and it follows that the toolbar PR can only drop if the real PR drops.