1 All Encompassing Site vs. Many niche sites

[jcarey]

I have a site that deals with a very broad range of items. As an example, lets say my site deals with all different types of widgets. If my most popular items are blue widgets, yellow widgets, and green widgets, would it be to my benefit to create 3 smaller niche sites along with my all-encompassing site for my three most popular items.

My domain names would be the following:
widgets.com
blue-widgets.com
yellow-widgets.com
green-widgets.com

Would you recommend creating a template through which I can create smaller niche focused sites that I can highlight by top performing items on or is it better to stick with optimizing my broader all-encompasing site? Please assume that I will create unique content for each as to avoid duplicate problems.

[beu]

Stick with the broader all-encompasing site but target those "long tail" terms would be my vote.

[vayapues]

Definitely niche sites. I am in a very similar situation. I deal with a number of topics for kids. I do much better by creating specific sites, and then cross promoting them. Even better if you can get different ip addresses for each site.

I would create a template, but change the names of all images and files on each site to your keywords. Also, change the alt text on each image to correspond to the topic.

Another issue is the domain name. You get credit for your domain name in searches. ie, a keyword in the domain name is very helpful. Individual sites allows you to pick domains with keywords for each topic.

You will do much better if each site is specific / authoritative to a specific topic, then trying to encompass everything under one site. At least that has been my experience.

[Ryan L]

http://www.seomoz.org/blog/why-it-pa...an-small-niche

When in doubt, do what Rand says?

BTW i think this is basically what your looking for.
widget.com
with subdomains
redwidget.widgets.com
bluewidget.widgets.com
greenwidget.widgets.com

[vayapues]

Ryan,

Thanks for the link. There are some good points made here, but I disagree at the conclusions.

First, branding is everything. You can have the number one spot, and still never get clicked on. wikipedia may come up on just about every search known to man, but how often do you actually click on them? Users are more likely to click on 'www.this-is-what-i-want.com' then on 'www.everything-on-earth.com'.

Also, I have found personally that the benefits of having my keywords in my domain out weigh the advantages with inbound links over the long haul. I get more inbound links by having separate domains. Users often link to several of my sites all on the same page, where as, if I just had one site, I would only have received one link.

I have also found that it is easier to get the coveted super listing from google at the top of the serps, or the listing where they show several of your pages, if you have a domain with key words in it.

Networks like Jupiter Media, and ClickZ don't lump all their sites into one massive website, because they all address different niches. Users feel better when they feel like they are where they belong.

jmho of course.

[Ryan L]

the address to this domain is forums.searchenginewatch.com and blogs at SEW are at blogs.searchenginewatch.com???

As for branding I am all for a uniform theme throughout.

I am a copy cat I pretty much follow the herd

[vayapues]

I agree (to an extent) with you on having a uniform theme throughout. It takes so much energy to build brand awareness that it usually does not make sense to do it any other way.

Where it does make sense to use a different theme, is when the niche is different. In this case, I am not using the word 'niche' as we thus been using it in this discussion. Rather, I mean when the target audience is different. Different audiences respond to different colors, and themes differently. Thus ClickZ will have more success with a particular theme on their SEO site, while the same layout might completely flop on another niche site.

Having said that, a uniform theme is not the same thing as a single domain. You can have a uniform theme, and separate domains.

I think you make some very compelling arguments Ryan. You have presented them very well, and I have to admit that you have made me think.

I still feel strongly that micro sites are better for a variety of reasons, but I certainly can see that there are valid reasons to go the other way.

[jcarey]

thanks vayapues,

you are one of the first people to say what i wanted to hear . i read rand's article over at seomoz an i'm wondering if his topic was driven from my question that i asked in the premium members section two days ago. his article he talked about how it is important to use incoming links to bolster your main site while not worrying about developing niche sites. that seems like good advice... but if i was trying to rank well for blue widgets, wouldn't i be able to rank better if i had a site that had twenty or so pages of unique content? most people on these forums say that page rank doesn't affect your rankings in the serps as much as "content/relevancy".

i agree with your viewpoint vayapues, it will always depend on the niche you are trying to rank well for.

This is my plan for expanding my widgets site...

1. Buy keyword rich domains such as blue-widgets.com
2. Create unique content for each of my niche sites using highly optimized niche related keywords
3. Obtain incoming links from sites related to my niche sites

Let me know if you have any other suggestions on how to market my niche sites.

[Ryan L]

let us know how it turns out?

I think it really comes down to how varied your content is:

I mean are we talking

Dairy Cows
-guernseys
-holstiens
-jersey
-brown swiss

or

Domestic Farm Animals
-cows
-pigs
-chickens

[jcarey]

It's more like the farm animals. Has anyone seen an actual case study of someone branching out into niche sites?

Thanks

[beu]

widgets.com
blue-widgets.com
yellow-widgets.com
green-widgets.com

is not the same as

widgets.com
blue.widgets.com
yellow.widgets.com
green.widgets.com

The second example is the same "site" in terms of branded domain name. I'm sticking with what I said earlier and with Rand's post.

Don't know of a good case study (wonder why) but worth pointing out a few URLs: video.google.com, mail.google.com, ipod.com or iphone.com (both redirect to apple.com)

Sub or folder keep it at one domain!

[cryptblade]

Jcarey, I wonder if anyone actually asked you the question - were you asking your original question about niche sites in regards to SEO or in regards to specific advertising campaigns?

If for advertising, then I say you should run with your idea. If you are advertising, it helps to have a microsite with its own domain - something you can advertise easily (like Scion vs. Toyota's Scion or Toyota Urban Market Car Company...)

If for SEO, then as Rand and others (except vayapues) have already said, it is better to have 1 dominant, authoritative site.

In SEO, HORDING is the name of the game. You want to HORDE authority - links, content, etc. Therefore, if you are asking about microsites vs. dominant sites for SEO, then stick with 1 dominant site.

In advertising, you want people to RECALL. Thusly, memorable names that serve a specific purpose (website) would be better. But remember, if you are doing microsites, you have to do MORE advertising and can't get the same impact with SEO. But that's the trade off.

[johnnycat]

i came across this situation about a year ago. one big deathstar site...vs many satellite sites. obviously your particular widgets and situation have everything to do with answering this question. context. so i thought i would throw out my particular situation and final solution...using specifics, not widgets or farm animals. anyway, my scenario played out like this.

private plastic surgery practice -> all types of surgical and non-surgical procedures...from breasts to tummy tucks to face lifts to botox etc.

most surgeons have one site that optimizes to all the related keywords to all these procedures...usually long tail for their particular region/state. they have basic information about the procedures...everyone (most surgeons) have basically the same content...regurgitated.

we decided to have many websites different ip's, domains...for each area of emphasis. site for breast augmentation. site for plastic surgery and plastic surgeon related keywords. site for facial surgery terms. site for buttock augmentation. site for genital surgery. etc. etc.

we found it more advantageous to build on many foundations rather than one. we are constantly adding more content and would rather spread it across all sites covering very longtail keywords related to these niche sites. we wanted to come up with content outside the norm...more detailed specific information. instead of a short paragraph on eyelid surgery...we get into what to do for a specific type of bump on your eyelid. this kind of thing. seems that in this situation...its best to own a whole city block w/ many buildings (eventually turning them into skyscrapers)...rather than one skyscraper surrounded by many others. also, our brand is the surgeons name...period. he is the product we are selling/marketing. we love to see him listed 3-5 times on the first page of google for one keyword...different domains.

so in our situation...i think this was the right choice. what do you all think. this is my first post here. long time listener...first time caller. thanks for all your great info.

[beu]

Welcome to SEW johnnycat!

I've pondered this idea myself and seen it in action more than a few times. Currently in some industries this method may work and work very well but it's only a matter of time. The biggest advantage of using this method is pushing out other sites but only in the short term.

we are constantly adding more content and would rather spread it across all sites covering very longtail keywords related to these niche sites.

With this method you are also spreading or thinning the importance, trust as well as PageRank of each site. By creating multiple sites you are not actually covering one "long tail" but rather you are making lots of "short tails".

we wanted to come up with content outside the norm...more detailed specific information. instead of a short paragraph on eyelid surgery...we get into what to do for a specific type of bump on your eyelid. this kind of thing..

Why couldn't you do this at one domain name? Wikipedia, Ebay, Forbes and others have lots of different yet very detailed information at one domain and at the same time they rank well. With the right architecture, this can be done on one site.

best to own a whole city block w/ many buildings (eventually turning them into skyscrapers)

It seems like the situation you describe is more like buying lots of city blocks with few buildings and no skyscrapers.

we love to see him listed 3-5 times on the first page of google for one keyword...different domains.

This is a short term advantage but how many times does he rank top 3? What is the average PageRank for each site?

Branding is about being consistent so customers identify with and by products. It seems like different domains would lack the consistency necessary for building one brand.

Also, safe to say this is at least a $500k per year project before any "marketing" cost comes into play? Maintaining all these sites, writing content, photos/images, legal and all other must be a royal pain from a content management stand point not to mention it being a long process! All for a site that I guess does "nothing" but provide information. Point being, not everyone has pockets, profit margins and/or is willing to pay like a bunch of plastic surgeons. To pull this off and keep it up year after year, you need lots of $!

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad this has worked for you and your client but, I think you may be the exception more than the rule.

One tip, be sure all of your sites are not registered with ICANN to the same person or at the same address or list the same phone number!

Best of luck and again welcome to SEW!

[vayapues]

that is a good point Beu. I too enjoy doing a search, and finding that I own all the sites that come up in the SERPs above the fold.

This is something that wouldn't happen on a megasite. Increases your real estate on the page, and the liklihood that a visitor will end up on one of your sites.

[Ryan L]

Originally Posted by vayapues

that is a good point Beu. I too enjoy doing a search, and finding that I own all the sites that come up in the SERPs above the fold.

This is something that wouldn't happen on a megasite. Increases your real estate on the page, and the liklihood that a visitor will end up on one of your sites.

Searchers are getting smarter and smarter every day; thanks to over zealous spamming of blackhat MFA's, many searchers have caught on to the fact that some pages are really nothing more than a black hole. They will quickly pick up that multiple sites are all feeding back to the same entity if only one or a few individuals/brands/products whatever are essentially featured. I am assuming that your pages feature the Surgeons name prominently since you said he is the "Brand". Some searchers may actually be ticked off and go elsewhere, feeling that they have been manipulated. Obviously at this point that doesn't out weigh the benefits (exposure) for your surgeon.

I think having multiple pages show above the fold has its pros and cons. Its both a safe move and a risky move at the same time. Like beu said you are diluting your "juice"; both your search engine pixie dust and your time/resources.

But it is also can afford a bit of a hedge;if you have the sites properly distanced.
ie but not limited to:
different registrars
different site architecture
different content
different link neighborhoods
different LSI --- guess I really just me jargon

If those suckers are totally separate in the eyes of the search engines than you might be able to employ some "greyish" tactics on the under-performing site with out putting all your eggs in one basket.

Obviously the big con is that if google changes the Algo and figures out your sites aren't really distinct, your could be wiped off in one fail swoop. Thats why all the black hatters were so scared about the google godaddy deal.

If it works for you, keep on keepin on!

[johnnycat]

you guys are great...thanks for all the input. good topic. i have never considered this really...to be a grey hat area of seo...but i ponder the thought. i suppose it is in some ways.

i should say...the surgeon likes the idea of someone who is looking for a breast augmentation surgeon, to find breast augmentation information...packaged in one site, portraying him as a "specialist" in that particular area. although i could veto his opinions on the matter i decided to go with his approach...damn give and take...you know how it is. everyones an expert.

the sites are all completely different...layouts, graphics, images, text content. i am trying to be very careful about duplicate content. right now we are ranking number 1 for our main keyword...plastic surgery "region", and rank top 3 for most all of our procedures (in addition to adwords). the surgeon is adamant about doing whatever it takes to keep the top spot for ppc.

i take into account all that you have said...and i do consider the opposite approach, even though it would be an incredible undertaking...to bring all the sites under one roof. one thing that kind of played a very important role in all of this - he already had all these domains and mini sites registered and indexed before i entered the picture. his sites had already been around for years as far as hosting and dns...so i had to keep that in mind.

i have read a lot about PR dilution and whatnot...so this does worry me.

BTW...on a seperate note. Yahoo has reshuffled in a big way. previously we only had google love...and now we get all kinds of attention from Yahoo...just in the last week.

Again...thanks for all the valuable knowledge. i love to share information...and i don't like industry secrets...per se' You will be seeing me around. Aloha...heheh

[RobHughes]

This is a great discussion! This is very much related...here's what I'm considering...

1.) CompanyName.com - OLD domain - has domain authority/trustrank, secondary pages with PR6
2.) ProductName.com - NEW domain - Domain includes keywords, improved architecture, use of keywords/phrases in folders/page names, etc...

I would like to use the new domain to develop strong rankings for the PRODUCT itself - AS WELL as have the ability to develop smaller niche sites to target specific audiences (different age groups, etc) as someone else pointed out above.

I am considering using the old domain as a corporate presence with 301's to the new site.

Any thoughts, does anyone see value in this??

[beu]

Originally Posted by RobHughes

This is a great discussion! This is very much related...here's what I'm considering...

1.) CompanyName.com - OLD domain - has domain authority/trustrank, secondary pages with PR6
2.) ProductName.com - NEW domain - Domain includes keywords, improved architecture, use of keywords/phrases in folders/page names, etc...

I would like to use the new domain to develop strong rankings for the PRODUCT itself - AS WELL as have the ability to develop smaller niche sites to target specific audiences (different age groups, etc) as someone else pointed out above.

I am considering using the old domain as a corporate presence with 301's to the new site.

Any thoughts, does anyone see value in this??

My first thought is why start all over again? I would keep the company name dot com site and all it offers.

Create a "product name" category and do what you want to do there. Also worth pointing out this is the best option from a branding point of view unless your product is a brand all it's own. (ie viagra, post-it-notes) Even then, such actions hurt brands.

To illustrate:

Did Apple kill apple.com when the iPhone and/or iPod came out? Did Google kill google.com when Gmail came out?

Check out gmail.com, iphone.com and or ipod.com and see what happens!

[cryptblade]

I see a dilution of this thread; it seems to be disintegrating into drivel.

Niche sites are great for marketing/advertising. They have recall. The user will remember www. newwidget. com better than newwidget. widget. com. You can advertise www. newwidget. com better than newwidget. widget. com.

But, if you add the SEO factor into this, then you need them all under 1 roof. Otherwise, you are reinventing the wheel all over again...and again...and again.

I've worked with clients who had all of these multiple sites. Because each site marketed a totally different brand - and because they had money to burn on each one - they were willing to market each site separately. But, they still used the same basic website design template - customized to each product. They did NOT reinvent each website design.

The same thing applies to SEO - in fact more so. As Beu pointed out, with each new site, you have to do the SEO all over again. One SEO does not carry to the other. If you think you are clever by linking one to another - you are not.

The SEO solution is, use those domains. Redirect them to a subdomain of the main site. As Beu pointed out, if you type in www. gmail. com, you get redirected to mail. google. com. So if you do the same thing, you would still get the same user experience AND the same SEO benefit.

If they look different from the main site, it's OK. The user will be influenced by the memorable brand domain name.

For SEO, hording everything into one thing is the best use of time and effort (and money).

Remember, Search Engines still operate as information archivers. How they rank and all that stuff is still based on this principle that they are archiving information and looking for the most authoritative sources of information.

If you want SEO benefit from using multiple domains, the SEO way is to horde it all into 1 main site.

You COULD still get good results by diluting everything to multiple sites - but that's mostly creating more work for yourself.

Don't know about you all, but I'd rather do less work - and make more money.