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Old 09-30-2004   #1
Nick W
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Hosting - Unique IP's and Unique C Blocks

Hi,

A vast majority of SEO type webmasters beleive that not only is it of benefit to have unique dedicated IP addresses for their websites but that it is also beneficial to have different C blocks on those unique IP's.

If you're not sure why that's important, check out msg5 by randfish in this thread titled Is Creating Sites Spamming for a simple explanation.

This gives finding a host company that provides unique IP's on different C blocks almost holy grail status. The cost of hosting say 30 websites all at different host compaines could be quite expensive. The setup fees alone would set you back a pretty penny right? Not to mention the fact that you then have to deal with 30 different C-Panels, 30 different billing systems, levels of support, etc etc etc...

I would like to see some suggestions as to which hosting companies actually provide such services all under one account.

I'll start: <pm me, editd cos somtimes i just dont think....>
Finest host i've ever been with, random C block allocation (i currently have 18 sites with them with only 2 duplicate C blocks) and top notch support. The developer account is probably the one you'll want.

Please add to the list, discuss the benefits of different C blocks or whatever. Im on a fact finding mission

Nick

Last edited by Nick W : 09-30-2004 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 09-30-2004   #2
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A vast majority?

I think not. I certainly don't buy into that at all. ALL search engines go off of "name-based" hosting. Let's face the facts; "many" websites are on virtual servers. They have no dedicated IP.

Arin is "not" randomly handing out IP's these days, let alone different c-blocks. In my opinion Nick, your information sources are wrong.

Let me clarify; If an owner's "intent" is to spam the search engines with multiple domains for pretty much "one" main website, with the goal to achieving higher link popularity, then maybe what your post implies has some merit.

Otherwise, it simply is a fact that Arin is not and does not want to hand out IP's without "good" reason. Ask any top web hosting company in the business, and that is what they would tell you. There is zero need for a dedicated IP these days. You may ask Google as well if you wish.
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Old 09-30-2004   #3
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So, what you're saying, ihelpyou, is that I can have 30 sites all hosted on the same IP address (or even on the same Class C Block), all with unique content and link them all together without any penalty from Google or any of the search engines?
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Old 09-30-2004   #4
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>Let's face the facts; "many" websites are on virtual servers. They have no dedicated IP.

True.

Then again...show me a big site, a best of breed site, a site that not only defines the keyword space it inhabits but dominate's it..show me one of those that uses's "shared hosting"?
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Old 09-30-2004   #5
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bhartzer
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without any penalty from Google or any of the search engines?
May not even be a penalty, it could be just disregarding the links.

ihelpyou
Quote:
Let me clarify; If an owner's "intent" is to spam the search engines with multiple domains for pretty much "one" main website, with the goal to achieving higher link popularity, then maybe what your post implies has some merit.
Now let me clarify: Not all that's intelligent reasoning is to spam, although there's no denying that many of the accomplished spammers out there are more intelligent than the rest of us. More tech-savvy and street-savvy, too.

Once through the Hilltop paper and the text of the Local Rank patent issued last year, and it's clear that c-class can be taken into consideration. And we have no reason to believe that it isn't, hasn't been, or won't be used to devalue or even disregard links from the same IP or c-class. In fact, there's more empirical evidence to the contrary.

The post therefore has much merit, because it's based on intelligent reasoning derived from authoritative sources, which it behooves us all to hearken to and heed, regardless of the source we hear it from.

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Last edited by Marcia : 09-30-2004 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 09-30-2004   #6
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So, what you're saying, ihelpyou, is that I can have 30 sites all hosted on the same IP address (or even on the same Class C Block), all with unique content and link them all together without any penalty from Google or any of the search engines?
Sit back and think about this a minute.

If one owner has 30 sites and they all are different content and different products and/or services; he/she really has no reason to link them all up together, right? They don't pertain to each other as they are all different sites with different products, right?

Now; If that one owner has all of these different sites with unique content, etc, and he "does" link them all up together.... what's the purpose? Is linking them up helping the visitors? They are all different, so no reason to link them up that I can think of.

Now; If that one owner with 30 sites is selling slightly different products, but in the same type industry, then he/she really has no reason to have 30 websites, right? Isn't "one" big site better than 30 separate domains? In my opinion, if this owner with separate products, goes out and buys up 30 different domains to sell "each" product from, he is only asking for trouble with the search engines, no matter if those sites are on different c-blocks or if they are on the same c-block. This is simply all common sense.

I know of many servers out there.... including mine, where they are hosting a few websites, for either clients or just other regular websites, and none of the sites have a dedicated IP. They don't have any reason to be linked up to one another, and all are doing just dandy.

It's more a matter of the intent. I don't worry about stuff like this. The fact is, "most" web hosts out there know how tough Arin has become.... more and more so daily, to get IP's. If a site needs a secure certificate, then that is one reason to have a separate IP. Other than that, there is no reason.
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Old 09-30-2004   #7
NFFC
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>Sit back and think about this a minute.

I have, for a long time too.

Still the same answer though, unique IP's are "better" than shared hosting.

>The fact is, "most" web hosts out there know how tough Arin has become.... more and more so daily, to get IP's

The harder things are to get the more valuable they become.

It is very dangerous to only see things from your own viewpoint especially when you have a responsibility to clients.
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Old 09-30-2004   #8
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Okay, so let's say that is true. Why is that so important in your opinion? And; what possible reason can you give where you absolutely need a dedicated IP, other than the one reason I gave above?
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Old 10-01-2004   #9
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ihelpyou
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what possible reason can you give where you absolutely need a dedicated IP, other than the one reason I gave above?
Take six, for starters.

1. It is entirely possible that one person can have two or more sites that cannot reside within the same domain but would absolutely be of value and interest to visitors of each. By a random walk visitors would most certainly click on a link on one to go to the other. Why should such a valid link not count?

2. There can be sites on the same IP or c-block who legitimately link to the other or others, even without knowing where the respective sites physically reside. Why should such valid links not count?

3. Because the design and development process for constructing a site is much simpler and more efficient wth a unique IP, particularly when absolute URLs, subdomains or sub-directories are used in the navigation structure.

4. Because a web developer may have several clients whose sites can and should legitimately link one to another, in addition to portfolio and design credit links, which are traditonally intrinsic to the trade. Why shouldn't those links count?

And if anyone asks why should a link count? For the same reason any webmaster or seo requests links from other sites in the normal course of conducting business, or advises their clients to do so. For the vote. If anyone disagrees, I'd like them to tell why they don't look for links, and if they do look for links, what their reasons are for doing so.

5. Because hosts and search engines can and do foul up.

6. Because of not knowing who else is sharing the IP. Remember the blacklist of a few years ago?

NFFC:
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It is very dangerous to only see things from your own viewpoint especially when you have a responsibility to clients.
Added, a personal reason:

Because some honest, kind-hearted black hat spammer who has had a kazillion sites banned advised me that it's better and safer for sites to have unique IPs.

Those of us with well-formed theories do well to keep an open mind and learn from those with experience. I personally try to refrain from dogmatic insistence and self-righteous bias, which are both antithetical to knowledge and learning.

Last edited by Marcia : 10-01-2004 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 10-01-2004   #10
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Nice Marcia, i do wish you'd use words a simple man from the country like me can understand though lol!

I've deliberately kept out of this, but i have to congratulate you on your post. It's class. And a good thing too, misinformation can really harm a newbie webmaster.

Check your rep

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Old 10-01-2004   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcia
3. Because the design and development process for constructing a site is much simpler and more efficient wth a unique IP, particularly when absolute URLs, subdomains or sub-directories are used in the navigation structure.
I don't think this is right. There's no reason why an unique IP address makes a difference; especially if you're working with absolute URLs and subdomains.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Google
Another useful test is to ask, "Does this help my users? Would I do this if search engines didn't exist?"
http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html]
I think crosslinking 30 sites is almost certainly a "search engine strategy" rather than one which assists users.

Seeking out unique c-blocks for your website so you can get the most from each link (whether that works or not) is certainly a search engine strategy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward
Why in this day and age does google continue to penalize sites that are virtual hosted? With ip addresses becoming harder to get/justify every day why does google discount the relevance of links that don't come from a unique ip address. Please don't just deny it, I think the Internet community deserves an explanation.
http://interviews.slashdot.org/inter...9.shtml?tid=95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Silverstein
I can't just deny it? What are my other choices? [] Actually, Google handles virtually hosted domains and their links just the same as domains on unique IP addresses. If your ISP does virtual hosting correctly, you'll never see a difference between the two cases. We do see a small percentage of ISPs every month that misconfigure their virtual hosting, which might account for this persistent misperception--thanks for giving me the chance to dispel a myth!

Here's some wild speculation. I quite like this one.
In the future Google will recognise writing styles (Gmail) and you'll loose significance if a page with the same writing style as yours links to you!

Last edited by Wail : 10-01-2004 at 07:13 AM. Reason: Removing a spare square bracket
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Old 10-01-2004   #12
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Do you optimize your website Wail?

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Old 10-01-2004   #13
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It is very dangerous to only see things from your own viewpoint especially when you have a responsibility to clients.
I agree entirely -- and in fairness to ihelpyou, I think he's expressing a viewpoint that others need to acknowledge as well. Doesn't mean you have to agree, but it's another experience to consider.

There's no doubt in my mind many sites do indeed share IPs and yet still do well with search engines. I would never tell someone it was a necessity to have to have your own IP address. They can -- and do -- succeed without them. That's been the case for years. The concerns over a shared IP aren't new -- and despite years of people not getting them, we've still seen lots and lots of people do well.

Having said that, there are very good reasons to consider getting your own IP, if you can do it. I think it revolves more about the particular site and campaign you are running, rather than a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone.

New small mom-and-pop site getting going? Frankly, if it was more hassle and expense to get the dedicated IP, I'd tell them to not worry about it and see how things go without.

Large, well-known and well-linked web site? If they have some of the potential problems with shared IPs, I also suspect the search engines themselves will take a closer look to solve.

Want to get aggressive with your search or link campaign? Yeah, a dedicated IP is probably going to help you.

I've seen the posts about links between the same IP address or class C block not counting. For the record, that's not something the search engines have told me they are actually doing. Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Even if it is, there's likely more going on. You're going to make some big screwups if you solely discount links between sites on a shared IP or same block. Instead, I would imagine you'd count those links by using this and a number of other factors to calculate. In particular, I think that if you saw strong evidence of in-bound links from other non-associated sites, that likely would give you more confidence in trusting these "internal" links.

Frankly, I think a search engine would be much more likely to discount links that look the same everywhere, same style -- same anchor text -- same hyperlink, regardless of location. So people who get the same "Buy Viagra" link across the bottom of a billion pages? I suspect that's discounted.

If you can afford it, if the dedicated IP is easy to obtain -- sure, do it! And the very best reason for that is number 5 on Marcia's list:
Quote:
5. Because hosts and search engines can and do foul up.

Last edited by dannysullivan : 10-01-2004 at 07:43 AM. Reason: fixed bad cut-and-paste at bottom
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Old 10-01-2004   #14
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I don't think it should matter even the in the slightest why someone would do it. It is perfectly legal to register as many domains as you like for whatever reason you like. No one should have to justify or be judged for wanting unique class c's for multiple domains owned by one entity.

This topic has once again drifted into yet one more, " I'm a good guy/you're a bad guy", circular debate when all that was asked was if anyone knew of other hosts besides the one the original poster said he used. WHY? How many of these silly finger-pointing arguments are we all going to get involved in before we finally see the wizard behind the curtain and realize trying to define most discussions as either good or bad is self serving. NOT to the industry or even to the newbies who are usually the ones claimed to being protected, but only to the ones whose survival seems to rely on the perpetuation of possibly the greatest marketing hoax the world has ever seen. I'm referring to the hoax that search engines are all good and would be fine were it not for people "gaming" their system. They need to stop trying to control what webmasters do with vague, self-serving guidelines and then wielding a heavy axe to enforce them and focus instead on what they do. They need to conform to the web and stop trying to force the web to conform to them. They do that and this instantly becomes a better web.

I'm pretty sure I'm about to cause some trouble with this statement but I feel it has to be said.

You know one of the main reasons why SEMPO can't seem to get rolling as an industry association? You know one of the main reasons why several before SEMPO have failed? It's not only because of those groups poor management and lack of setting effective objectives and strategies.

One of the main reasons those associations fail is because the industry itself is not mature enough to support a trade association.

The harsh reality is that many who represent this industry in forums are not business people. At least not in the sense that have any prior experience or education as a business person. That is one reason why we can never seem to get placement techniques, conversion techniques, market analysis and client acquistion techniques discussed, resolved and something of value gained by the participants. Nothing can seem to be looked at solely as a profit/loss question. Everything seems to have to resolve to that is spam, this is spam, he's a spammer, I'm not a spammer. It is juvenile and keeping what should be a multi-billion dollar a year industry from capitalizing on it's promise.

My personal opinion is that we will never truly profit as an industry, we will never be fairly represented by a trade association and we will never see the promise of internet marketing fulfilled by small independent businesses across the globe, until we can find a way to mature as a group and unite for the advancement of the industry.

Maybe a few of us making 7 figures and most of us making 5 is good enough. It is certainly good enough to convince some of us that we are successful and pretty smart. But if we were truly smart and mature enough to discuss things as businessmen, we would realize that we are all one update away from either being out of business or our income drastically reduced. Even for those of us who spend a lot of money on PPC. One meeting behind closed doors with the search engine suits and they have the power to double or triple our costs.

It is not a situation of us against them in any kind of internet sense. This is business and there is real money at stake. It is us against them not because Google hates all spammers, that is silly. It is us agaisnt them in the same sense that it is Ford against Chevrolet. Macdonald's against Burger King and every retail store on the planet against Wal Mart. We are all competeing for the same customer and trying to convince that customer that our service or products offers more value than our competitors.

I truly apologize for making this long post so far off-topic. It's just that I felt it had already gotten far off-topic.

That said, I will not expose who I use but in my opinion anyone who does not accept that any search engine can ban or penalize anyone they want for any reason they want without notice or appeal, and not see that as a risk to your assets and not take steps to protect you and your clients, is not a very good business person at best and at worst --a fool. But that's just me.
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Old 10-01-2004   #15
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I don't think it should matter even the in the slightest why someone would do it. It is perfectly legal to register as many domains as you like for whatever reason you like. No one should have to justify or be judged for wanting unique class c's for multiple domains owned by one entity.
Nick W started out with the statement that "a vast majority of SEO type webmasters" think you need your own IP. It wasn't offtopic for ihelpyou to respond that he didn't believe this to be the case. I certainly don't know if either is right. I've never seen a survey on the subject.

We certainly did get away from the central question -- what companies provide dedicated IPs to clients. Suggestion are welcomed.

Personally, I've found exploring the greater issue of why you might want (or not want) your own IP has been helpful. I haven't read anyone as suggesting it's not something legal. There's a semi-blackhat/whitehat theme going on -- but even ihelpyou's original post, if you go back and read it, is stressing that this is an issue that he believes might impact you more if you are being aggressive with search engines. I tend to agree with that, but as said -- if you can get it cheaply and it's not much trouble, why not get your own IP?

The main reason ihelpyou's statement is resonating with me is because I encounter people new to SEO all the time. They get really, really confused about the myraid of things that can be done -- when they haven't even mastered the basics.

For example, I got a telescope a few years ago for Father's Day. Being me, I went out and immediately got a ton of lenses, a thing that's suppose to track stars automatically, a few other bits and bobs and just stopped short of getting something to hook it up to my computer. But as it turns out, a lot of that was overkill. I really use it to view the planets, and most of the filters and stuff I got never come out.

So the point is, sure -- a class C might be helpful. But that's probably not the first place someone new, who isn't planning to be too aggressive with search engine marketing needs to start out -- especially when they've got lots of other things to be considering, as well. That's my take -- others are free to disagree

Quote:
They need to stop trying to control what webmasters do with vague, self-serving guidelines and then wielding a heavy axe to enforce them and focus instead on what they do.
No one has said that the search engines are saying get a class c or don't.

There's speculation that they might be doing things behind the scenes that make it useful.

There's also speculation that if they do such things, it might cause problems with "regular" sites with no SEO intentions whatsoever -- hence, a thought that it may not be an issue.

For Google's part, as a quote specifically above say (from Google's Craig Silverstein), they say it doesn't matter. If you want your own IP, OK. But you don't have to get one either.

I agree with the overall view that we shouldn't feel like search engine get to dictate what we do, if we think it makes the most sense. Good topic for another thread, if someone wants to fire up. Personally, I find things like "look out who you link to annoying." I'll link to whomever I want -- and I don't want to feel like I've got to watch out for the link police that emerged well AFTER I was already linking.

Quote:
Nothing can seem to be looked at solely as a profit/loss question.
Actually, there's been a lot of that in this very thread. Is it worth the time and effort to get your own IP? People are providing answers, and those seem to be based on the type of activity you are doing -- not that you are doing something wrong or right.

And now I apologize if I've wandered offtopic too much!

Last edited by dannysullivan : 10-01-2004 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 10-01-2004   #16
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Nick W started out with the statement that "a vast majority of SEO type webmasters" think you need your own IP. It wasn't offtopic for ihelpyou to respond that he didn't believe this to be the case. I certainly don't know if either is right. I've never seen a survey on the subject.
Ohhh.. picky picky picky!

hehe..... perhaps i should have said "the vast majority of SEO type webmasters I personally know"

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Old 10-01-2004   #17
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I've personally not seen suggestions that a dedicated IP is of any use to SEO in the modern SEO environment.

As for hosting companies offering Class C's - there's a two-fold sting there - namely, that if you want real control you have to deal with many hosting companies, because most will have limited access to IP ranges, and the big outfits simply are not equipped to care to go scrabbling all over their server IPs.

In that regard, people better know what they're doing with webhosting - and I mean in detail - otherwise you are looking at taking on a major headache. Simply admining lots of IPs ranges is a headache anyway, because network outages, harddrive failures, IP migrations, and Firewall issues, are all a routine daily task once you really start investing in them.

Add to that the fact that many webhosts you find yourself having to work with can be slow and non-communicative with support issues, so good experience of problem-solving within the webhosting environment is going to be pretty necessary.

I'm just lucky, because I was actually experienced enough on the webhosting side to open up my own webhosting services, before I went commercial SEO, anyway.

The second sting is simple, though - the reason for collecting C classes shouldn't be about simply getting C classes - it should be about creating something that looks towards being a natural linkage. And that means you really need a good distribution of IP's, full stop.

C classes in themselves are possibly not a necessity - in fact, it's more of a precaution. But it's a frustrating precaution that probably creates far more work than is possibly necessary.

At the end of the day, the market for selling links on established websites is almost certainly more lucrative than building new sites from scratch for linkage - for example, what Patrick Gaven's doing with text-link-brokers.com.

However, I'm still relatively new to commercial SEO anyway, so take my comments as you will.

Last edited by I, Brian : 10-01-2004 at 01:47 PM. Reason: As usual, terrible typos
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Old 10-01-2004   #18
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Quite honestly, I think its nothing more than a sales pitch from those who are running link brokerage firms to entice more sales. I believe that is where the problem started, not that someone has actually tested the theory. "Get 50 unique IP links here" is all I've seen for some time now.

Quite honestly, who the hell cares if the IP is unique or not, is the content relevant or does the site have a high enough throughput to deliver some relevant traffic if a link, banner, etc of any description is placed.

Honestly, has anyone ever setup a unique IP, a shared IP, linked from both uniquely to some content and measured each result?
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Old 10-04-2004   #19
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>Nick W started out with the statement that "a vast majority of SEO type webmasters" think you need your own IP. It wasn't offtopic<

I did see that as the first statement but I thought this was the actual topic of the post.
>I would like to see some suggestions as to which hosting companies actually provide such services all under one account.<

I too have an interest in that specific question and read the thread with anticipation of some leads. When I "felt" the thread had once again changed direction to a discussion of ethics I was disappointed and made my post from an emotional motivation. My sincere apologies to all.
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Old 10-04-2004   #20
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It PROBABLY doesn't hurt you in google to be on the same C block, but it doesn't help you.

It hurts in other engines if you are on the same c as a spammer. Maybe google soon as well. Even if it doesn't - it certainly makes you easier to find.

Doesn't hurt - might help. I am all for unique IPs. Costs more money, but not that much more.

As far as ARIN goes and hosts using this as an excuse. I know it it a problem for some hosts, but others have figured out ways around this. I got hundreds of IPs on one host for less than $75 a month. Others have given me them for prices around 50 cents a month.
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