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Old 07-19-2007   #1
Big Juice
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Danny Sullivan Allegedly Succumbs to Wikipedian Bullying

Recently Durova, a Wikipedia administrator, wrote an article for Danny Sullivan’s Search Engine Land web site entitled SEO Tips & Tactics From A Wikipedia Insider. Given Durova’s history as an administrator this brought on some comments by various people, some in favor of Wikipedia and some – not so much.

One of the comments was by some self appointed Durova watchdog that goes by the name DurovaWatch and actually posts on the subject at http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Durova. Personally I haven’t read it but I did read his comments. Now aside from calling this Durova person out on a couple of her positions I didn’t read anything that looked all that bad, just one persons opinion.

Soon after posting his comments one of the Wikipedian champions, JEHochman, came forward and all but told Danny to turn off the comments and went even further to call the person commenting a troll. Once again, from what I read, it was just some person who questions Durova’s tactics as an administrator over at Wikipedia.

A few other comments were left by various people and the one that strikes me is the one left by Gregory Kohs who posts on SEL by the handle of thekohser. He seems to be rightfully offended by JEHochman’s expressed thoughts on him being DurovaWatch. From where I sit it is JEHochman who overstepped the bounds of good taste in the comments.

After a few more posts, some by Danny himself cautioning people to play nice, and from what I have read they were, DurovaWatch posts a couple of more comments and once again nothing slanderous, Danny elects to shut off the comments. I don’t know for the life of me what DurovaWatch had said in his last comments that could have prompted this overreaction, perhaps it was how he accurately called out JEHochman by writing and I quote “If you are interested in extending WP:RULES off wiki, you just violated WP:NPA (no personal attacks), WP:CIVIL, as well as implying that content is subject to censure.”

From where I sit it would appear that Danny Sullivan has succumbed to the will of a Wikipedian bully by shutting off the comments on this story but what I don’t get is why? If you are going to pull down the comments from your site because some of the favoured few don’t like being called out, how can the people who go to your site continue to trust your objectivity?
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Old 07-19-2007   #2
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I didn't pull any comments. You're making an untrue, incorrect statement. Neither did I edit any comments, for that matter. If I remove or edit comments, in the few rare cases that has to be done, I almost always note this within the thread where it happened.

I did close the comments. I did that after we had 17 comments and counter-comments that happened after a full 24 hours. Things got a bit heated, and they seemed to stay that way even after I warned people to keep things civil in keeping with our guidelines (which by the way, are similar to the same guidelines here, standard be respectful but make your points behavior). Saying "there is something really wrong with her," isn't exactly civil, nor is calling someone a "troll" if they raise some factual disputes or issues with an author. I had issues with how both "sides" in the debate that erupted were acting.

You suggest someone made me do this. No one did that. I received no such request to close the comments. No one said that.

You say, "all but told Danny to turn off comments." No. JE Hochman said:

"Danny, would you be so kind as to block this troll for violating your comments policy."

That's not at all the same thing as closing comments entirely. That's a request to block one person, which I did not do. Instead, what I did was post to everyone (not any individual, but everyone) to remain civil, as I explained above.

There were some more go rounds, none of which seemed to be furthering the discussion but rather just seemed to be extending the hostility. That's why I closed the comments. And to be clear, no one was banned -- no one was edited, I simply said:

"Appreciate the comments all around, but I'm closing comments because it's getting a bit heated, points have been made, and we're short people to be watching over the comments closely here, sorry."

Shutting down comments like this is rare, but it's not some specific thing I've done just because a Wikipedia "bully" has some magic over me. For example, look here when people started getting a bit out of hand after the Zunch bankruptcy news came out:

http://searchengineland.com/070427-085646.php

I closed comments there as well. I actually edited a few of them that simply got too personal -- but with the Wikipedia thread, I did no edits. By the way, closing down comments is something I did here on the odd occasion when I ran SEWF. For all I know, occasionally threads might still get closed for purposes of preserving order rather than some attempt to be biased.

I hope this additional information helps.
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Old 07-19-2007   #3
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I'll add a few things to Danny's response. Some of the responses to that thread had nothing to do with the substance of the article. Gregory Kohs has been banned from Wikipedia. Since the comments closed at the SEL article I've extended him an offer: if he'd like to raise his grievances at Wikipedia arbitration I'll give him a limited unblock for that purpose. I have no need to make that offer and nothing to gain from it. I'm just doing my best to be fair.

Jonathan Hochman was correct in identifying one post as trolling, although it appears he was mistaken in his guess about who was responsible. He apologized as soon as he was corrected. The link the troll provided was to an attack site that has been the focus of a Wikipedia arbitration case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped...itration/MONGO

This sort of thing comes with the territory of being a Wikipedia administrator. Usually the attack sites have gone pretty easy on me in the past, but it's all water off a duck's back. This is the Internet after all.
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Old 07-20-2007   #4
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Durova, I'll remind you that essentially the reason I was most recently blocked from Wikipedia (after Jimmy Wales, the sole founder had UNblocked me) was thanks to you interpreting as a "legal threat" my polite request for more information about your defamatory comment. I don't lie to journalists. That's why I took offense when you said I "gave misleading information to journalists".

If it requires an "arbitration case" on Wikipedia to get you to just talk with me like a decent human being, then I'd welcome that opportunity. How the heck do we get this arbitration going, then? (Reminder, I've said before, and I'll say it again, I admire 98% of your contributions to Wikipedia -- I'm just having some problem with you calling me a liar.*)

Look at how silly this is. I asked you to just e-mail me your evidence of my "misleading information" that I "gave to journalists", but months later, we're brokering the discussion on an SEO message board.

*At least in so many words.
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Old 07-20-2007   #5
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Actually it was Samuel Blanning who reimposed Gregory Kohs's most recent siteban from Wikipedia, and the reason for banning was legal threats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...er:M yWikiBiz

The reason he remained sitebanned is because none of Wikipedia's 1278 administrators was willing to give him yet another chance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped...administrators
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BAN#Community_ban

Last edited by Durova : 07-20-2007 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 07-20-2007   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thekohser
Look at how silly this is. I asked you to just e-mail me your evidence of my "misleading information" that I "gave to journalists", but months later, we're brokering the discussion on an SEO message board.
See how nice SEOs are to let you argue in our house? Anyway, about those nofollows....
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Old 07-20-2007   #7
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This is actually pretty funny.

WikiFight!!!
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Old 07-20-2007   #8
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Heh -- I think the continuing fight says all I need to say about closing comments on that thread. Now when you have to close this thread Rob, I'll wait for Big Juice to accuse you of being biased
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Old 07-20-2007   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durova
Actually it was Samuel Blanning who reimposed Gregory Kohs's most recent siteban from Wikipedia, and the reason for banning was legal threats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...er:M yWikiBiz

The reason he remained sitebanned is because none of Wikipedia's 1278 administrators was willing to give him yet another chance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped...administrators
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BAN#Community_ban
Sigh. I'm really, honestly, not trying to make this into a "wiki fight". But, here's my situation right now.

Durova has reached out to me through a third-party on the Wikipedia Review forum, indicating that I now have a temporary unblock, but if I would be so kind, tone down my criticisms of her off-Wikipedia. That's fine.

But then I see here that she's still (at least in my interpretation) spinning the story to make herself look saintly, and me look like a goat. I don't care (and the rest of the world shouldn't care) whether it was Samuel Blanning who reimposed my ban on Wikipedia. The MOTIVATION for him doing that was because I had asked Durova to provide some evidence for why she said I "gave misleading information to journalists", which I consider to be a defamatory statement about my reputation. As soon as the Wikifaithful saw that word "defamatory", they went Wikinuts in a scramble to ban me again, and Blanning happened to be the first admin to get to the button. I truly hope that Durova doesn't think she was some independent, non-influential agent at the time of my most recent siteban.

Secondly, it seems odd to say that "none of Wikipedia's 1278 administrators was willing to give him yet another chance", when in fact just a week prior to the most recent siteban, both User:Cyde and User:Jimbo Wales had extended some effort on my behalf to lift the block. You can see Jimmy's comment at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...er:M yWikiBiz
"He asked nicely, I think the issue is completed", on March 23, 2007. A founder of Wikipedia thought it appropriate to unblock me, yet 6 days later, Blanning felt it appropriate to reblock me, purportedly because of a legal threat. Here are the things I said to Durova that were construed as legal threats:

* In sum, I'm not trying to drag you into court. I'm not trying to expose your true identity. In fact, I'm trying to reduce the need or desire for either of those processes.

and

* The word defamatory merely means 'harmful and often untrue; tending to discredit or malign'. It is not exclusively a legal term.

and

* You can stop any level of concern or paranoia that I am threatening a legal action.

and

* I, too, respect and commend almost all of your contributions to Wikipedia! Heck, only one of them is sticking in my craw. ;-) I'll look forward to your e-mail.

Now, I can already pre-empt what Durova is going to say in response to this. She's going to say that when Jimbo unblocked my account on March 23rd, he was not aware that I had been participating in Wikipedia via sockpuppet accounts for the preceding 6 months, so when he was made aware of that, he agreed that I should be re-banned. If you, dear reader, believe that story, then I can't possibly win you over.

So, I'm now temporarily unblocked by Durova. That's great. I'm going to comment there. It's at "User_talk:Thekohser" on Wikipedia, so we can end the hijack of this forum (which HAS been kind to let this discussion play out without "banning the trolls").
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Old 07-20-2007   #10
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Actually Jimbo and I didn't discuss Mr. Kohs's ban evasion at all, although Greg makes a good point that's another good reason he should have stayed sitebanned. Here's the policy statement about that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SOCK

Actually what I pointed out were some cynical statements Mr. Kohs made concurrent with Jimbo's good faith unblock. Jimbo wasn't pleased to see them.

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=7624

Anyway, I've gone ahead and unblocked one of Greg Kohs's accounts. I'm surprised he finds time to post again here because Greg claims he's "far too busy right now to pursue" arbitration at Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=145859602

Greg, if you feel like walking the walk, go ahead and open a request for arbitration and inform the committee when you'll be available. They've kept cases on hold for editors before, although I don't know whether they'll decide your grievance is meritorious enough to arbitrate. I think you're afraid to go through with this because you know as well as I do that your claims don't hold up to scrutiny.
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Old 07-20-2007   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durova
I think you're afraid to go through with this because you know as well as I do that your claims don't hold up to scrutiny.
Wow. Says the double-secret anonymous Wikipedia administrator to the real-world person with a real name, real job, and real family. Does anyone else here in the real world find it incredulous that this kind of taunting is not only acceptable, but par for the course among Wikipedia's cabal-like pseudonymous leadership?

I didn't make the claim, Durova, you did! I'm asking you to support your bogus defamatory claim with evidence, which you refuse to do except in the protective sphere of a kangaroo court adjudicated by your friends. Maybe I'll get a pearl of wisdom from the Arbitration Committee like "banned users are banned for good reasons" (one of my favorite quotes from Wikipedia). I'm sure they'll take seriously my concern about you defaming my reputation from behind an anonymous shield. Is this this same ArbCom to which Jimbo appointed a known academic dropout grossly lying about his resume, which he later defended by saying "I don't really have a problem with it"? Yeah, it sounds like I better prepare for a couple of weeks before I enter my plea to that esteemed council.

Finally, that link to my post on Wikipedia Review that apparently upset Jimbo when you ran to him like a schoolgirl tattletale -- that's one of my favorite posts!

I'm tempted to ask the hosts of this fine web forum to post a poll here, among real-world people whose brains haven't been washed by the Wikijuice, to rate the sanity of each of us, on a scale of 1 to 100. I may be a little off my rocker, but anonymous Durova, I think you've left the rocker on the porch, donned your silly goo-goo spring eyeglasses, put on a pink and maroon feather boa, and you're doing handsprings down the road to Loonyville.
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Old 07-20-2007   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannysullivan
Now when you have to close this thread Rob, I'll wait for Big Juice to accuse you of being biased
To be honest I was tempted to close the thread as soon as I saw it, but thought that they may get the impression that I give a hoot about Wiki politics. On the positive side, I managed to spam a lot more Wikipedia pages during the squabble I'm bored now though, so the next person to act like an idiot will get reported for Wiki abuse from 100 aged user accounts.

Now lets all sing along:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvgINs2bVHo
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Old 07-20-2007   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilgreenmonkey
Billy Reid is the funniest guy on YouTube! Thank you, Mr. Monkey, for pointing out his masterpiece video. Others to check out are "Lip Synching to the Song" and "White Chicks and Gang Signs". Great stuff, especially if you grew up listening to Devo.

Greg

Last edited by thekohser : 07-20-2007 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 07-20-2007   #14
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Oh my, that video is wonderful. Had no idea who he was, and now I've gotta watch more.
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Old 07-20-2007   #15
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I'd like to see a ding dang WikiMud Wrestling match settle this!

http://images.google.com/images?q=mud+wrestling
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Old 07-20-2007   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beu
I'd like to see a ding dang WikiMud Wrestling match settle this!

http://images.google.com/images?q=mud+wrestling
I would consent to that, and even wrassle with my right arm tied behind my back, since Durova is a lady, of course.

Greg
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Old 07-20-2007   #17
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Thanks for the chuckle. Or we could be like Medieval lords and settle this by joust.

<snip>

Last edited by evilgreenmonkey : 07-20-2007 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Your initial post was fine, then you spoilt it by trying to get the last word in.
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Old 07-20-2007   #18
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Closing thread. I'm so glad I don't manage Wiki, it's like having squabbling kids high on sugar in the back of a mini-van for 10 hours!
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Old 07-25-2007   #19
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Re: Danny Sullivan Allegedly Succumbs to Wikipedian Bullying

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannysullivan View Post
I didn't pull any comments. You're making an untrue, incorrect statement. Neither did I edit any comments, for that matter. If I remove or edit comments, in the few rare cases that has to be done, I almost always note this within the thread where it happened.

I did close the comments. I did that after we had 17 comments and counter-comments that happened after a full 24 hours. Things got a bit heated, and they seemed to stay that way even after I warned people to keep things civil in keeping with our guidelines (which by the way, are similar to the same guidelines here, standard be respectful but make your points behavior). Saying "there is something really wrong with her," isn't exactly civil, nor is calling someone a "troll" if they raise some factual disputes or issues with an author. I had issues with how both "sides" in the debate that erupted were acting.

You suggest someone made me do this. No one did that. I received no such request to close the comments. No one said that.

You say, "all but told Danny to turn off comments." No. JE Hochman said:

"Danny, would you be so kind as to block this troll for violating your comments policy."

That's not at all the same thing as closing comments entirely. That's a request to block one person, which I did not do. Instead, what I did was post to everyone (not any individual, but everyone) to remain civil, as I explained above.

There were some more go rounds, none of which seemed to be furthering the discussion but rather just seemed to be extending the hostility. That's why I closed the comments. And to be clear, no one was banned -- no one was edited, I simply said:

"Appreciate the comments all around, but I'm closing comments because it's getting a bit heated, points have been made, and we're short people to be watching over the comments closely here, sorry."

Shutting down comments like this is rare, but it's not some specific thing I've done just because a Wikipedia "bully" has some magic over me. For example, look here when people started getting a bit out of hand after the Zunch bankruptcy news came out:

http://searchengineland.com/070427-085646.php

I closed comments there as well. I actually edited a few of them that simply got too personal -- but with the Wikipedia thread, I did no edits. By the way, closing down comments is something I did here on the odd occasion when I ran SEWF. For all I know, occasionally threads might still get closed for purposes of preserving order rather than some attempt to be biased.

I hope this additional information helps.
The threads do still get closed occasionally here.

Also I have known Danny for a bunch of years and he is not one to be intimidated...
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