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Old 01-22-2007   #1
atlanta404
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<h5> tags versus <strong> tabs

Hi everyone.

Should I use <strong> tabs for content in my page that I want to be bold, but reserve <h5> tags for content in my page that I want to bold AS WELL as gain recognition by the spiders for being more important than the regular text and <strong> text?

My CSS is set up so that <strong> and <h5> look identical.

Thanks.
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Old 01-22-2007   #2
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And I mean "tags" not "tabs"...

Sorry... It's Monday morning...
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Old 01-24-2007   #3
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Not sure I completely understand the question, but I'll take a stab.

It's my understanding that <strong> has no impact on anything related to the crawler (treated the same as normal text).

Header text is believed to be weighted more heavily, so yes, if you want only certain bolded text to be recognized by the engine, but you want both classes of text to appear the same to the user, your config would work.
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Old 01-24-2007   #4
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Bold and italic tags are taken into account by search engines, as such text is considered important amongst the rest of the content. Heading tags should only be used for menu and content headings, not mid-sentence. I've never used <h5> before, lowest I go down to is <h3>. The more you use them, the more diluted their importance will be.



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Old 01-24-2007   #5
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The bold/italic question was just asked to the Yahoo and Google representatives at SES Chicago, and the answer that I heard (in a round-about-way of course), was: "Use bold and italic to help make your text more readable for your users - it's all just text to us."

Did anyone else hear a different response?
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Old 01-25-2007   #6
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I've seen this make visible (but small) results, emphasising important keywords and topics related to the page. I think that Matt also covered this when talking about <strong> vs. <b> in one of his videos.

Personally I'd take my own proven results over anything a SE rep says, others should do the same with their own testing. Not even Google engineers who tweak the algo know the entire algo.
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Old 01-25-2007   #7
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If your own testing has proven it, then I could be wrong.

I've been duped!!
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Old 01-28-2007   #8
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When will SEO's learn <h> tags have a proper use and it has nothing to do with SEO or formatting text! It is about document structure nothing more nothing less! Use 'em right or not at all! Beyond myself and a few old timers does anyone bother to look at the HTML reference for a tip as to proper use of HTML elements and attributes? Afterall I'm sure those who write the spec couldn't give a damn about search engines but do care how they affect the structure of a document and how that aids users reading/scanning them. Nowhere does it say for any <h> tag this is for formatting text. H1, H2, H3 have specific uses and 4 & 5 are a subset of 3. If you read the spec you might even get half a clue as to why <h> tags are given higher weight in some engines' algos.

Last edited by Webmaster T : 01-28-2007 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 01-28-2007   #9
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WebmasterT is right on about the function of the heading elements.

About whether they're also for SEO, that's a semantic point. Good SEO is, after all, involves building pages that are well organized around their main content. But unless you use Hx elements correctly, it's pointless to use them.

Here's a comment on the same point that I recently posted over at WebmasterWorld...

http://www.webmasterworld.com/search...htm#msg3232528

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Old 01-29-2007   #10
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Like many of the people around here (I presume), I was a developer long before I was an SEO, so I'm well aware of the primary purpose of an <H> tag.

To say that it has nothing to do with SEO is not at all true. That would mean that its use (or misuse) would not have any impact on ranking.

Also, if one would want to start applying that type of logic, it could be applied to every HTML element. For example, the alt tag is meant to provide text for non-graphical users. That doesn't mean that it has no impact on ranking.

Evilgreenmonkey said it best; if the data substantiates it, go with it.
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Old 01-29-2007   #11
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I first wrote about the <h> tag back in one of my first articles back in 96 or 97 and have never been able to prove definitivly that <h> tags are weighted. Only a SE engineer knows that for sure, so... to say it affects ranking is a stretch and is in the realm of conjecture. To say my statement is not true at all, is, well.... not something that most in this forum can verify or provide anything more than conjecture based on little or no concrete facts. Believe me I've tried several times to prove this early theory of mine, but, IMO, it will always be nothing more than conjecture likely because it is weighted even less now then it was in the past.

An <h> tags most important use is for how it breaks up a document into digestable pieces for users who are scanning pages, which, IMO, from a marketing perspective is far more important than any marginal SE ranking gains.

Chriss, If you thought my comment was specificly for you then... it wasn't, or I would have addressed you specifically, not SEO's in general. My point was that SEOs' need to be more concerned with its value to the user experience than some marginal gain in ranking.
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Old 01-29-2007   #12
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WebmasterT, I definitely knew that you weren't just directing your reply to me. Sorry if it came off that way.

I also understand the underlying meaning of your post; that often SEOs get swept up in rankings, and forget about user experience, etc.
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Old 01-30-2007   #13
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Right on Chriss! I was thinking today that SEOs would be well served to remove the SEO hat for a minute, put the marketing hat on, and access the SEO decisions' impact on the marketing side of things. There are always tradeoffs and IMO, that's often what differentiates one vendor from another. Too many seem pre-occupied with or seem to think their job ends when the user arrives at the site, IMO, that's just step one in the three step conversion process.
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Old 09-18-2007   #14
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Re: <h5> tags versus <strong> tabs

Are you talking about white hat techniques ? That's what i think of when you mention SEO.

Last edited by evilgreenmonkey : 09-18-2007 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Spammy signature link
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Old 09-19-2007   #15
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Re: <h5> tags versus <strong> tabs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmaster T View Post
When will SEO's learn <h> tags have a proper use and it has nothing to do with SEO or formatting text! It is about document structure nothing more nothing less! Use 'em right or not at all! Beyond myself and a few old timers does anyone bother to look at the HTML reference for a tip as to proper use of HTML elements and attributes? Afterall I'm sure those who write the spec couldn't give a damn about search engines but do care how they affect the structure of a document and how that aids users reading/scanning them. Nowhere does it say for any <h> tag this is for formatting text. H1, H2, H3 have specific uses and 4 & 5 are a subset of 3. If you read the spec you might even get half a clue as to why <h> tags are given higher weight in some engines' algos.
So true WebmasterT as you know it's been that way since the early days! H1-H6 are good marketing, good for users, provide important information about "importance" as well as structure and should provide important visual clues as they are intended to do!

I don't know how anyone can say that Google is not interested in document structure:
"In this paper, we present Google, a prototype of a large-scale search engine which makes heavy use of the structure present in hypertext."
- Google uses "structure"

"It makes especially heavy use of the additional structure present in hypertext to provide much higher quality search results."
- Google uses "additional structure present in hypertext"

http://infolab.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html


I don't know how anyone can say that an H1 can't be used to format text for presentation purposes:
"Rationale: When elements and attributes are used inappropriately, such as using structural elements for presentation purposes (e.g., H1 to create large, bold face text, or BIG and B to mark a heading),user agents that allow users to navigate through the structurewill be unable to do so properly. Reformatting the page for other media and devices can also be difficult."

www.w3.org/WAI/GL/19980721txt.htm


I don't know how anyone can say that visual presentation is not important to Google:
"...Google keeps track of some visual presentation details such as font size of words. Words in a larger or bolder font are weighted higher than other words."
- Google uses "visual presentation details"

"We use font size relative to the rest of the document because when searching, you do not want to rank otherwise identical documents differently just because one of the documents is in a larger font."
- Google uses "font size relative to the rest of the document"

http://infolab.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html


I don't know how anyone can say that any H is the same as STRONG:
There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones.
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-H1


I don't know how anyone can say that any H is the same as STRONG, especially in the eyes of user-agent Googlebot:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...&gl=us&strip=1

By the way, there seems to be no H1 in SEW's homepage and that is a shame !

Last edited by beu : 09-19-2007 at 01:50 AM.
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