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Old 07-30-2004   #1
BruceClay
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Code of Conduct

Quote:
MODERATOR NOTE. THREAD SPLIT OFF FROM An SEM Code Of Conduct?, and also see this original post from Bruce on his toolset as it relates to a code of conduct.
Released: http://www.seotoolset.com

Code: http://www.seotoolset.com/seo/conduct.html

Comments welcome

Last edited by dannysullivan : 08-12-2004 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 07-30-2004   #2
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Definately a better setup than Sempo. Just can't find the fees?
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Old 07-30-2004   #3
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceClay
I think the fact that there are already big Bruce Clay ads on the site would make one assume the idea is more for self promotion than promotion of the industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bethabernathy
Definately a better setup than Sempo. Just can't find the fees?
starting at $750 from what I saw. I guess that means its not for everyone.
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Old 08-01-2004   #4
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Franchise training?

Quote:
Additionally, Bruce can also look at it a creating a superior competitor - providing insight into what they current don't know or do. In that -- it's better for the client, better for the industry, and at a mere $750 it could well induce a major return on the investment.
Bruce seemed to indicate in his first post that his certification was for his proprietary system and products. So my question would be is this like McDonald's University? It may well be valuable but is this really going to set up competitors or franchises?

Next, being associated with industry leaders is all fine and dandy, but these are just people. Better to be assocated with an institution that will survive long past the lifespan of any one man or woman. That is exactly why we build universities and write constitutions - to create institutions of lasting value. This holds for both reputation and economic value. None of that means that Bruce's course is bad per se. But it is something that has to be considered, and if Bruce retires will it survive?
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Old 08-04-2004   #5
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Sorry not to have answered sooner... Google dance...

The $750 covers not only a course (which is in person, face-to-face, with the associated costs), but several tries at a test, as well as audits of the practices of the Certified Analyst. At least 5 times (once at the beginning and 4 random times) a human will audit the work of the members to detect any violation of the Code, and if an issue then we intervene which takes several hours per incident. Also, any person can cause random audits as well by issuing a complaint against a member. I figure that at any reasonable consulting rate that my cost of managing a year of this, including a year of my tools, training, audits, included technical support, costs of the web site, a full time instructor, etc... the cost will easily come close to $750. I will see if it works, but in my opinion I am at risk of losing money.

I also did not want the whole world to sign up on the first day... I have had forms in my SES booth and we have many registrations for the whole thing already, and not one gripe over cost. When it is explained the people hearing it wonder why it is so inexpensive. I agree, not everyone can afford to invest in this program if they are losing money, but not everyone can pay $1600 to attend SES either.

As for the slot reserved for ads... I am installing rotating ads for Certified Organizations in this area as a part of their fees and only on the main site. The site never show a competitors ads when you are in the tools themselves, and the tools even drop navigation to the main site pages so that they remain "separate". But since I ate the cost of developing this program, and I wanted to protect the advertisment turf, it seemed fair that I occupy the space reserved for the rotating ads on day one. This was never intended to be a loss leader or to guarantee it will be non-profit... otherwise it is not viable. At launch I just need to cover my costs, and that was a SWAG calculation. I have been here a long time, and I do not plan on going anywhere. But as I said earlier, this is a voluntary membership program, and you are welcome to contribute (I'll listen), join, or not. But the journey starts with a step and nobody else was willing to lead.

Booth 301 at SES.

Sidebar... ad area is surrounded with <advertisment>...</advertisment> tags. But that is another thread...
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Old 08-04-2004   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceClay
Sorry not to have answered sooner... Google dance...

The $750 covers not only a course (which is in person, face-to-face, with the associated costs), but several tries at a test, as well as audits of the practices of the Certified Analyst. At least 5 times (once at the beginning and 4 random times) a human will audit the work of the members to detect any violation of the Code, and if an issue then we intervene which takes several hours per incident. Also, any person can cause random audits as well by issuing a complaint against a member. I figure that at any reasonable consulting rate that my cost of managing a year of this, including a year of my tools, training, audits, included technical support, costs of the web site, a full time instructor, etc... the cost will easily come close to $750. I will see if it works, but in my opinion I am at risk of losing money.

I also did not want the whole world to sign up on the first day... I have had forms in my SES booth and we have many registrations for the whole thing already, and not one gripe over cost. When it is explained the people hearing it wonder why it is so inexpensive. I agree, not everyone can afford to invest in this program if they are losing money, but not everyone can pay $1600 to attend SES either.

As for the slot reserved for ads... I am installing rotating ads for Certified Organizations in this area as a part of their fees and only on the main site. The site never show a competitors ads when you are in the tools themselves, and the tools even drop navigation to the main site pages so that they remain "separate". But since I ate the cost of developing this program, and I wanted to protect the advertisment turf, it seemed fair that I occupy the space reserved for the rotating ads on day one. This was never intended to be a loss leader or to guarantee it will be non-profit... otherwise it is not viable. At launch I just need to cover my costs, and that was a SWAG calculation. I have been here a long time, and I do not plan on going anywhere. But as I said earlier, this is a voluntary membership program, and you are welcome to contribute (I'll listen), join, or not. But the journey starts with a step and nobody else was willing to lead.
the cost is really cheap for an in person course. especially with all the other stuff. its hard to find anything that will be truely scalable and affordable...that is just how this industry works.

the face to face thing adds value, but again that adds to the scalability problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceClay
Sidebar... ad area is surrounded with <advertisment>...</advertisment> tags. But that is another thread...
I did not know that the was eventually going to shift to a community ad. I still think it likely hurts you more in the eyes of new people to see your ads there than just leaving that area blank.

you can have something that says "brought to you by" and I think that would be fine, but that ad looked like it was trying to sell your serives IMHO.

best of luck with your site. it will be a hard road.
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Old 08-07-2004   #7
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Thumbs up SEOToolSet

Bruce, you are doing a good thing for the industry and it takes guts to stand out while many out there are just giving opinions but not doing anything about the industry. I support your program as I mentioned to you in person, but also wanted to take time to let everyone know that here "en mi casa".

----------------------------------

Regardless if BruceClay rules of conduct A through Z written in one language and Organization X has it in another. As long as the code of ethics are right, being part of one or in multiple ones is a good thing and your clients will reward you for it in the long run.

My 2 cents.
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Old 08-10-2004   #8
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If the industry is to have a code of ethics & certification - I do not see why it has to use BC tools in order to do so.

Also, if we are talking cost then http://www.seotoolset.com/support/ce...formation.html.
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Old 08-10-2004   #9
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I agree. That is why I am not trying to set an industry standard.

As I discussed in my original post (page 2), I announced a personal code of conduct centered on my personal offerings (much like Microsoft Certifications). My intent is to publish mine as a way to start the ball rolling. But I believe that there are so many personal interpretations that simply publishing a code is worthless unless you can also teach and enforce it (just look at how well the search engines have done against spam). My offering is reputation, branding, leadership, strategic and tactical training, methodology, comprehensive tools, audits, and enforcement. I do not think that many in this industry are able to put together the package needed to do it right, and I know that simply publishing a code is not going to do it.

Yes, I know that there are many that are senior SEO's that have their own way and tools, and they are not obligated to do things my way just like they are not obligated to get my certification. But if you want to be certified by me (and I am putting a great deal on the line here) they need to use my methods and tools.

I also know that many SEO’s have been self-taught and have fought their way to a lucrative career and do not want their competition trained. They hate the idea (and think I am crazy) to teach other SEO’s how to do what I do. I am sure that many of you are making money and do not need better trained competitors. BUT I think that if spammers were eliminated that the amount of work for those of us left standing would exceed our wildest dreams, so I want to train clients to only use ethical trained SEO’s. I also think that there are a great many believers that simply need leadership and they will bandwagon this program to the top. I believe in this industry and this is my chance to contribute. Just imagine what could be if clients know that they have an alternative to spam, and who to call...

I will keep you posted on how this goes... the classes are 3/4 full for the next 3 months just from SES.
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Old 08-10-2004   #10
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"so I want to train clients to only use ethical trained SEO’s"
Bruce - I wish you well (I know you will do well anyway) but my point is merely that the way some of the wording reads right now on your website seems to be a little "my way or the highway". Training clients to think that only SEO's coming up through your ranks are any good is reading just a little bit like (or even worse than) the Google guidelines SEO page... (which we all know could be worded better).

Hopefully my words assist you in some small way... Give a mention to those rare gems out there that do it differently but ethically and it will feel better.
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Old 08-10-2004   #11
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>much like Microsoft Certifications

I'm sorry but I can't let that pass, words are powerful etc etc.

No doubt you are considered a name in the industry, a speaker at SES and holding down a 10 ten spot for the "industry" term for a long while. Whilst I accept that slowly shaking off the Bruce the cloaker Clay term and moving on from, shall we say, the unfortuinate page jacking incidents may give grounds for a new beginning it does not make your code of conduct in any way whatsoever like Microsoft Certifications, trust me on that.

I think it depends on whose approval you are looking for. If its the SE's I feel you may be out of luck ["Bruce, the cloaker guy, has a code of conduct?"] if its other SEO's ["Bruce the page jacker, has a code of conduct?"] same result with maybe a few more LOL's.

If on the other hand its the approval of clients shown by contributing to your bottom line I think you are on a winner, and from my heart I wish you the best of luck in your new business venture.
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Old 08-10-2004   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFFC
If on the other hand its the approval of clients shown by contributing to your bottom line I think you are on a winner, and from my heart I wish you the best of luck in your new business venture.
Its seems as though you cut to the chase more than just about anyone else I know.
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Old 08-10-2004   #13
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Originally Posted by NFFC

I think it depends on whose approval you are looking for. If its the SE's I feel you may be out of luck ["Bruce, the cloaker guy, has a code of conduct?"] if its other SEO's ["Bruce the page jacker, has a code of conduct?"] same result with maybe a few more LOL's.

If on the other hand its the approval of clients shown by contributing to your bottom line I think you are on a winner, and from my heart I wish you the best of luck in your new business venture.
First, I have NEVER used cloaking. Second, I am not a pagejacker, and only had a single issue due to a well documented programming error in test software ONCE long, long ago, which was explained repeatedly and corrected immediately. I am not and never have been a spammer. I earn results the hard way -- I play clean. I have never hidden from accusations designed to falsely accuse me, discredit me, or otherwise cause bias, and I have always owned up to and even documented my errors for all to see when they have occurred. IMO, those raising long dead issues are only trying to confuse this issue and distract this thread from its real purpose and should leave.

I am not here to set a standard, simply to offer an option for those that want it. If anyone feels that what I say and do is evil, then simply do not participate. If anyone thinks that hiring full-time instructors (which I have done), offering 3 days of face-to-face training (hotel space is not free), a years worth of tools, at least 5 audits to assure compliance, free technical support on the tools (I have 2 dedicated people in my support department), and more is not worth $2000 (what an small SEO firm earns in a few days), then you should simply go elsewhere. I do not see anyone else doing all of this for less, do you?

As for the Code… do better and I will support you. But lead or contribute or get out of the way.

Last edited by BruceClay : 08-10-2004 at 11:10 PM. Reason: last line clarification
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Old 08-11-2004   #14
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Question

No one knows how to SEO.

Okay, people on these forums are good - some, including Bruce, are very good at SEO.

But no one knows for sure how to SEO. The algorithms are a secret. We don't know, to the character, how much you can put in an h1 tag before it's spammy. We don't know what Googlebot/test was really up to. Some people swear true about sandboxes and over optimisation penalities and others laugh at the suggestion.

We've pretty good ideas and we're sure enough to run businesses based on them. That's one thing. I think offering certification on something you're only able to make best-guess on is an other issue entirely.
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Old 08-11-2004   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wail
I think offering certification on something you're only able to make best-guess on is an other issue entirely.
Bcomm degrees are based on the same "best guess" philosophy yet it is a neccessity in mainstream business recruitment. I mean - if you hire a person with the "wall sticker" does that actually guarantee your company will now succeed, or just have a better change at succeeding?

Intangible products and services are knowledge-based. They don't offer net value that you can simply touch and feel... but they do offer a major competitive advantage "if" the methodology is used correctly, strategically, and with steadfast resolve.

Additionally, "all certification programs right up to PhD" only give you the ability to think for yourself rather than relying on others to do all the thinking for you. If gives you the right to be "accountability" rather than "well that's what some guy at SEW told me will work... and he knows what he is talking about - I think?"
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Old 08-11-2004   #16
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No, no, damn it, that is against the rules!

In response to Bruce Clay I just have two quick things to say.

1. 'SEO Standards' is a contradiction in terms. The very phrase makes absolutely no sense. It is like having standards for a street fight. You stick to your standard blocks, punches and other standard rules of engagement and I'll whip your ass in a fight in 4 seconds.(metaphor of course)

2. As one of those who was pagejacked I know for a fact that it was a lot more than one page, you probably had at least 400 of my pages alone. And the stuff you were jacking was completely machine generated garbage.
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Old 08-11-2004   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleman
1. 'SEO Standards' is a contradiction in terms. The very phrase makes absolutely no sense. It is like having standards for a street fight. You stick to your standard blocks, punches and other standard rules of engagement and I'll whip your ass in a fight in 4 seconds.(metaphor of course)
great metaphor

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleman
2. As one of those who was pagejacked I know for a fact that it was a lot more than one page, you probably had at least 400 of my pages alone. And the stuff you were jacking was completely machine generated garbage.
memories tend to be a bit more vivid and clear when you were the offendie vice the offender
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Old 08-11-2004   #18
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1) Standards are quite different from a code of conduct. Without a reasonably similar code of conduct we would not be a society. But, boy are there differing standards. When I considered how to do this, I realized that nobody could dictate an industry standard. But I can teach people how to do what I do, and I could offer a certification of my own on that specific training and practice, and that is all I could do (or that the industry could or would tolerate). I have the knowledge and resources to do it, I have the desire to help us all move forward, and I am frustrated at those that keep us from making progress. So I am taking a step. I hope to have followers... at least until something better comes along. I think this is a step forward, not backward.

2) Littleman, since you remember it all from years ago, do you also recall that I explained myself openly and quickly, that I did not hide at all, and when the error was detected that I immediately corrected it? Do you not recall that it was a programming bug and that I explained how it occurred in technical specifics, and that I apologized about a zillion times for my mistake? I think you will agree that error never resurfaced. I would hope that each of us making an error would behave as responsibly.

But this leads back to my intent... ANY code of conduct should allow for converts -- people that want to go straight regardless of their prior life. If everyone converted to being a follower of a social code then it might succeed. If having "sinned" once will forever make you evil and nobody wants to help you do it right, then a clear majority of SEO's in this world are doomed.

As for "how to SEO", I am only certifying people on the use of my tools, following my code, and playing by my guidelines. Others may consider it worthless, but I have raised the bar and consider that a valid first step. I think that this single act is of value to us all. So "how to SEO like me" does fit what I am doing even if “how to SEO” does not. How many others are willing to teach their competitors how to succeed?

This is not a thread about me, it is about moving towards consensus. I simply expressed my opinions, and told you what action (versus rhetoric) I was committed to providing. Action speaks louder than words. I hope you give it a chance, and support the attempt.
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Old 08-11-2004   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceClay
I have the knowledge and resources to do it, I have the desire to help us all move forward, and I am frustrated at those that keep us from making progress.
who are these people who frustrate you and when have you spoke of your frustrations prior to marketing your new program or your Bruce Clay SEO code of ethics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceClay
How many others are willing to teach their competitors how to succeed?
perhaps the hundreds of people posting in SEO forums every day, not just around the timeframe when they are promoting their new product.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceClay
This is not a thread about me, it is about moving towards consensus. I simply expressed my opinions, and told you what action (versus rhetoric) I was committed to providing.
so people who do not agree with your idea or offer feedback and suggestions are speaking rhetoric. that should be a good way to get followers. where do I sign up for your program?
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Last edited by seobook : 08-11-2004 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 08-11-2004   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceClay
But I can teach people how to do what I do, and I could offer a certification of my own on that specific training and practice, and that is all I could do (or that the industry could or would tolerate). I have the knowledge and resources to do it, I have the desire to help us all move forward, and I am frustrated at those that keep us from making progress.
So are there standards by some commercial company on how to advertise and market tv commercials? I really don't know but enlighten me if there is one. Is there a commercial company that certifies people or entities on how to advertise on tv according to rules? Again, I don't know but please search and prove me wrong.

Sorry pal but standards are what the FTC or other agencies are for, not some commercial SEM company. If the gov wants to step in fine, but don't preach to us about your tactics to benefit yourself.

To everyone else: Why is it that these thick skulled SEM people can't get it into their heads that they are not the ones to create standards? Come on give me a valid response to that question. All of this talk is really boring me.

Search results belong to the search engine companies. Its their game, its their rules, its their programs, its their data, and they have their own reasons for what is allowable. Anything else to regulate-that is up to the government. Why is it that some SEM company or SEMPO organization has to set some rule for what others do? Answer that too while you are at it. Seems that the common answer is some false statement to blind people in order for the said company to profit from it. But that's business right?
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