Help-Stop-Smoking Site Rankings Drop Out Of Google - Non-Profit site - Please Help!

[GoogleGuy]

Interesting, I didn't realize that SEW was okay with people posting specifics. bobmutch, you're saying that quitsmokingsupport.com is a non-profit site? Here's what I see when I look. Last time I checked, I saw dozens of links to quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com. Oh look, from quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com, I'm able to take care of my other health needs, from friendly vendors such as pheromones-perfume-cologne-attract-woman-man-human-androsterone.com,
attract-woman-man-androsterone-human-pheromone-perfume-cologne.com,
better-orgasms-sexual-dysfunction-libido-enhancement-enhancer.com, and of course diet-pills-natural-fast-weight-loss-supplements-fat-product.com.
That's quite a bit of help. In fact, if I view source, I'm also able to find many other helpful products:
<a class="giffard" href="quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com_sitemap.html">quit smoking quitting smoking stop smoking Site Map</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.smokeshop.com">Online Herbal Smoke Store & Smoking Accessories</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.hair-removal-product-hair-remover.com/">Ultra Hair Away Hair Removal Product Hair Removal Spray</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.better-orgasms-sexual-dysfunction-libido-enhancement-enhancer.com/">Better Orgasm Female Libido & Sex Drive Enhancer</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com/">Stop Smoking Product</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.help-quit-smoking-stop-smoking-quitting-aids.com/">Smoke Away Stop Smoking & Quit Smoking Help Aids</a>

<a class="giffard" href="http://www.better-orgasms-sexual-dysfunction-libido-enhancement-enhancer.com/">Better Orgasm Female Increase Libido</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.blacklightpostersandpictures.com/">Black Light Posters and Pictures</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.affiliate-program-search-engine.com">Webmasters click here for affiliate program</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.black-light-posters-pictures-bulbs.com/">Black Light Posters Pictures and Party Lighting Superstore</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.bob-barefoots-coral-calcium-supreme.com/">Bob Barefoots Coral Calcium Supreme Plus Supplement</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.as-seen-on-tv-products-herbal-enhancement.com/">As Seen on tv Products Store</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.attract-woman-man-androsterone-human-pheromone-perfume-cologne.com/">Euphoria Human Pheromones Perfume and Cologne Products</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.human-pheromones-cologne-perfume.com">Human Pheromones Cologne And Perfume Online</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.diet-pills-natural-fast-weight-loss-supplements-fat-product.com/">Natural Diet Pills & Weight Loss Supplements</a>

<a class="giffard" href="http://www.h-and-h-enterprises.com/">Pepper Spray Mace & Self Defense Products</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.pepperspraymace.com/">Pepper Spray Mace & Stun Gun Superstore</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.pepper-spray-mace-stun-gun.com/">Pepper Spray Mace Stun Gun</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.virility-patch.com">http://www.virility-patch.com</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-smoke.ws">http://www.herbal-smoke.ws</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.pheromones-perfume-cologne-attract-woman-man-human-androsterone.com">human pheromones</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.globalifecash.com">Webmasters Affiliate Program - GlobaLife Cash</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.natural-herbals.com">Diet Fat Loss Pills</a>

<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-smoke-shop.com">http://www.herbal-smoke-shop.com</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-smoke-shack.net">exotic herbal smokes</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.quit-smoking-pill.com">stop smoking pill</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-cigs.net">herbal cigarette</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.weight-loss-patch-diet-patch.com">diet patch</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-smoke-shack.com">exotic smoking blends</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-breast-enhancement-pill.com">Bust Enhancement</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.vp-rx-penis-enhancement-pill.com">penis pill</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-weight-loss-program.com">diet patch</a>

<a class="giffard" href="friends.html">Friends and Additional Links</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbalsmokeshack.com">marijuana alternative</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_product_i.html">stop smoking product</a>
<a class="giffard" href="smoke_away_m.html">smoke away</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_aid_i.html">stop smoking aid</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_aids_i.html">stop smoking aids</a>
<a class="giffard" href="quit_smoking_aids_i.html">quit smoking aids</a>
<a class="giffard" href="quit_smoking_product_i.html">quit smoking product</a>
<a class="giffard" href="smoke_away_i.html">smoke away</a>

<a class="giffard" href="quitting_smoking_i.html">quitting smoking</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_i.html">stop smoking</a>
<a class="giffard" href="quit_smoking_i.html">quit smoking</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_program_i.html">stop smoking program</a>
<a class="giffard" href="quit_smoking_program_i.html">quit smoking program</a>

Hmm, that's strange. class=giffard? What does that mean? I guess I'd better check out their CSS file at http://www.quit-smoking-quitting-smo...linktables.css in order to see what "giffard" means. Oh, here it is:
.giffard means
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 1px;
color: #FCFCFC;
background-color: #FFFFFF;
visibility: hidden;

Wait a second. visibility hidden? font-size is set to 1 pixel? But wouldn't that mean that all those great resource links are hidden to users? Hmm.

Weird. Last time I noticed, there were also lots of links to help-quit-smoking-stop-smoking-quitting-aids.com from pages like http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/refer.htm . Hmm. Looks like the same company doing this?

bobmutch, here's what I'd tell Blair: if you want to run a non-profit, don't link to sites that have hidden text via CSS, especially not on the *footer of practically every page on the site*. Who you link to can affect your ranking. This site seemed to have a lot of links to a lot of very aggressive sites for a non-profit. I'd recommend that he remove all links to these aggressive sites, and then send an email to us requesting reinclusion.

Hope that helps,
GoogleGuy

[David Wallace]

Well there you have it! Thanks, GoogleGuy! Excellent find!

<applauding>

[bobmutch]

GoogleGuy LOL, you are the greatest! I didn't take the time to go as far as you did but you have made me look silly. Thank you very much for your kind help. This is a good lesson in how linking to bad neighbourhood can get you a penalty.

Also it answers another question I had and that is your can get a penalty that will drop the PR of one page a couple of units and not all the way to PR0. The answer is yes!

[pageoneresults]

This is a good lesson in how linking to bad neighbourhood can get you a penalty.

This is actually a good lesson in how today's search engine marketeer needs to be savvy in many areas.

That is absolutey amazing stuff above. There goes one network. Hmmm, I do seem to recall seeing that page naming structure somewhere before. friends.html, eek!

[bobmutch]

pageoneresults: Ya I would say so eh. I have checked out the domains and it would seem that Blair has been above board with me and he only owns 2 of the domains as far as I can see and he declares this so on his site.

Just a case of linking to a bad neighbourhood. I guess some one needs to come up with a program that will scan the pages of the site you have a link to and see if they have spammy content. The site that GG dissected has that same spam in almost all pages on the site.

[pageoneresults]

Ya I would say so eh. I have checked out the domains it would see them Blair has been above board with me and he only owns 2 of the domains as far as I can see and he declares this so on his site.

Hmmm, I've been looking at the above network for the past 30 minutes. I'd say Blair maybe hired the wrong firm to do SEO/SEM services for his site in the past. There are some telltale signs (footprints) all over that network that lead back to one company inparticular. GoogleGuy knows who it is or he would not have posted all that stuff above.

Just go to any of those offsite links above and add /friends.html to the URI.

[orion]

Great finding, GoogleGuy team. It appears more than one got gamed and busted.

Originally Posted by GoogleGuy

Interesting, I didn't realize that SEW was okay with people posting specifics.

Interesting, indeed.

Orion

[GoogleGuy]

Happy to help, bobmutch. I'm of two minds on mentioning specifics. I can respect a policy of never naming specifics--there's many, many good reasons why you don't want members dropping urls all the time. On the other hand, an occasional concrete example can bring home the sort of issues that a site owner or webmaster is going to face (e.g. linking to bad neighborhoods).

[bobmutch]

GoogleGuy: I agree completely! Blair is very busy cleaning house and I have told him that everything that is questionable needs to go. Now I am just wondering your opinion would of this been a hand ban or was it picked up by one of Googles filters and done automatically?

I would also like to know your feeling on quality reciprocal links that enhance the visitors of both sites (closely related to the theme of the both sites). Are we likely to see them being devalued at some point? Personally I am telling my clients more and more to submit their sites to the quality directories.

[mcanerin]

Under the circumstances I think the specifics mentioned here are clear, helpful and useful.

I think this falls under the "useful and appropriate" exception in our no naming sites rule, and I think personally it's a great example of why the Mods and Admins didn't want to outright ban links and specifics.

Keep in mind that the most important thing to get from this is the process of discovery and analysis rather than the specific sites involved - I'm pretty sure everyone involved knows this, but I want to make sure any of you lurkers realize it too.

Excellent discussion.

Ian

[kctipton]

Time to change the thread title to remove "non-profit site". Nonprofit, indeed!

[bobmutch]

kctipton: Well this happens quite often not only on websites but in life generally. There is one (or in this care several) bad apples in the box and they ruin it for others. Blair is just another innocent webmaster that has a pet project that means alot to him. Yes to pay for his hosting he was renting out space to other companies that were out there to making buck. But he had no idea that linking to bad neighbourhood.

The nice thing is that it getting straightened out, then he and email and ask for reinclusion and life will go on.

[Dave Hawley]

Blair is just another innocent webmaster...

Don't they all shout this once caught? I once tried telling a traffic cop I never saw the speed limit sign and so I'm innocent. He laughed while writing the ticket He also told me as a driver on the road, it is my resposibility to know the limits.

[AussieWebmaster]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawley

Don't they all shout this once caught? I once tried telling a traffic cop I never saw the speed limit sign and so I'm innocent. He laughed while writing the ticket He also told me as a driver on the road, it is my resposibility to know the limits.

But sometime you actually miss the sign or briefly pass the speed limit and rail it in only to be in the wrong place at the wrong time....

[Nick W]

Blair is just another innocent webmaster

Words fail me...

[Marcia]

>>Words fail me...

Me too, Nick. What can we say? Yet another innocent victim of the oligarchy, stripped of PR and relegated to the bottom rung in the Google Directory.

[glengara]

Wonder if they'd have got away with it had those links had been visible?

Hard to read which impressed GG less, the actual links, or the fact they were hidden.

[Chris_D]

Good one GG!

Hard to read which impressed GG less, the actual links, or the fact they were hidden.

I think it was the verbosity of the domain names which really sparked GG's interest



A good example of why it pays to read the 'rules' isn't it:

Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's ranking or PageRank. In particular, avoid links to web spammers or "bad neighborhoods" on the web as your own ranking may be affected adversely by those links.

http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html

Note it says 'links to' and nothing about the 'link from'.....

[robwatts]

In particular, avoid links to web spammers or "bad neighborhoods" on the web as your own ranking may be affected adversely by those links

Isn't there a bit of a problem with this don't-link-to-web-spammers-else-we-will-penalise-you logic?

What if for example, you run a web directory, or have a large resources section, or a blog, or a forum etc etc. Think about it, what if you linked to something donkeys years ago, which at the time was perfectly fine. Subsequently, unbeknown to you along came Johhny Spammeister and bought up this domain, and gleefully spammed to kingdom come.

How are you meant to police this? Run a hand review of all the sites you link to?Not really feasible, is it...or am I missing something? Is the safe suggestion to run everything through robots.txt blocked script redirect, only to be captured for something else like the 'pagerank hoarding penalty'

Or would this be mollified by the buy adwords filter?

[powerofeyes]

What if for example, you run a web directory, or have a large resources section, or a blog, or a forum etc etc. Think about it, what if you linked to something donkeys years ago, which at the time was perfectly fine. Subsequently, unbeknown to you along came Johhny Spammeister and bought up this domain, and gleefully spammed to kingdom come.

I think this has been discussed long back Rob, Google's natural spam filter algorithm wont penalize or degrade a directory site based on just one or 2 bad outbound links, It seems they have this sort of system implemented properly, If one or two outbound links per page are bad then it seems to be ignored, but if there is extensive links from a page to bad neighbourhoods then that page is penalized by automated algorithm,

if they go ahead and spam every page that links to bad neighbourhood then most of the Dmoz directory pages would be penalized since so many sites does bad things after being listed in dmoz,

This particular site mentioned above does link to bad sites extensively and it does trigger the google spam filter algo for this site,

GoogleGuy seem to be really patient in digging out these pages and from what I can see it is a natural penalty to this site,