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Old 10-25-2005   #1
GAustralia
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Angry Are Non-Regional Ads "Dummy Bidders" At Google When Regional Results Are Selected?

In Australia there are two search options: (1) Search the Web, and (2) Pages from Australia.

If Pages from Australia are ticked and the search Virtual Offices is selected, approximately half the sponsored ads are from outside Australia such as London and Hong Kong.

This means, as a sponsor, I have to bid higher amounts against irrelevant offers to obtain position. Dummy Bidders are illegal in Australia for auctions. I say that Google is not being honest in this case and also providing a disservice when a user only wants Pages From Australia that is all they should get. Good search should reduce the clutter. Google can do a much better job. I told them all this in an e-mail and their customer service computer sent me a response thanking me for my input.

I think Google could be open for claims of artificially inflating bidding amounts. What say you? I would just be happy if Google provided as represented: Pages From Australia.
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Old 10-25-2005   #2
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As an advertiser, why should I be excluded from advertising to those from Australia, simply because my website doesn't happen to be from Australia. If my site/product/service etc is applicable to those in Australia, despite the fact I don't happen to be IN Australia, why should Google exclude me from advertising?

Advertisements are based on where the advertiser wants to target...meaning advertisers have chosen to advertise there. It does not make good business sense for Google to exclude me as an advertiser simply because my address says Canada instead of Australia.

And from a surfers perspective, what if I have a product/service/etc that an Australian surfer is looking for, but I have been excluded form advertising to that person because I am not from Australia. That doesn't make for a good user experience, either. If I sell something that someone in Australia can buy, why on earth should my advertisements be excluded from those people?
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Old 10-25-2005   #3
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Hi GAustralia,

Your logic is flawed -the issue is the advertiser - NOT the system.

Quote:
If Pages from Australia are ticked and the search Virtual Offices is selected, approximately half the sponsored ads are from outside Australia such as London and Hong Kong.
I'm an Australian company - what if I want to open a UK 'office'? Do a search (from Google Australia) for 'virtual office london' Try virtual office new york. Try virtual office mars.

Look at all the AUSTRALIAN serviced office companies who are showing their advertisement - who don't have a LONDON/ New York/ Mars virtual office to sell me.

Who are the 'dummy bidders' now????

All you are highlighting with your example is that the people who advertise in that sector apparently don't know how to use Adwords effectively.

The UK virtual offices should try geotargeting their campaigns so they don't show in countries that they don't have an product to sell in; and the Australian advertisers should learn about 'negative keywords'.

Ok - even as a professional - I probably wouldn't have excluded mars.

Its the nut behind the wheel that needs tightening.....

Last edited by Chris_D : 10-25-2005 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 10-25-2005   #4
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i think the original poster has something here.

not legal aspect, frankly who cares-.

i mean that the poster has stated that even only pages FROM AUSTRALIA, and these adverts are getting through.

so organic results can be filters to domestic country but ads cannot, even when you are asking to.

interesting observation.
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Old 10-25-2005   #5
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Reply: to overseas Australian Companie

Hello,

I have read your replies.

All global companies may be accessed in Australia by selecting: "search the web."

I am thinking of a better Google search that reduces the clutter when a user only wants Australian companies or companies doing business in Australia. (Perhaps Google could do more with these regional searches offering them globally).

This is why I believe Pages From Australia should only include .com.au and .com.net and ALL THOSE companies who OPT IN - not the clutter that defaults in.

My example still stands. If I am in Australia, and I select PAGES FROM AUSTRALIA and I search Virtual Offices, chances are I am not looking for virtual offices in London, Hong Kong, etc. Then why should I be subjected to such clutter if I selected a more limited search:PAGES FROM AUSTRALIA?

GAustralia









I am not saying that
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Old 10-25-2005   #6
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You will get organic results that are .au domain or hosted in Australia which is what the SEARCH preference is. Search preference is for organic, algorithmically determined search.

That is DIFFERENT from paid adverts. One is determined by the algo, the other is determined by who expects a ROI for paying their advertising dollar by targeting that market for customers. Different criteria, different program entirely.

Another thing - you say virtual office. Well, if you mean virtual assistant, the very crux of that service is that that the service can be and usually is remote so physical location of the provider doesn't mean squat. If someone provides the service in a locale then they DO belong in the results. The way the algo works they won't come up in organic search, so they need to do Adwords.

Frankly, it sounds like the bidding is higher than you like so you'd like to eliminate the competition that isn't physically located there. But the service may not warrant it the way you want it to be, and it's satisfying the searchers/customers that's the purpose, they're the ones who pay for the advertising.

Quote:
This means, as a sponsor, I have to bid higher amounts against irrelevant offers to obtain position.
If they provide the service there then they are not irrelevant.

Last edited by Marcia : 10-25-2005 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 10-26-2005   #7
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Reply to Marcia

Hello Marcia,

Reply: virtual office offers are irrelevant outside the target area of a potential customer. If a potential customer's target area is global than all global offers are relevant - this is not usually the case.

Some questions for you:

Do you have a business?

Do you believe that the Google engine search is perfect?

Do you believe that there are no issues of clutter when doing searches?

What ways do you think that the Google search can produce more relevant results?

GAustralia
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Old 10-26-2005   #8
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Talking

Do I understand correctly? Your saying if I went to say google.ca entered “flights to Australia” and selected only pages from Canada, then Qantas airlines should not be allowed to tell me that they to offer flights from Canada to Australia? I agree the organic results should only return domestic results, but the advertising results should and must return relevant ads, and obviously “flights to Australia” is relevant to the entered quarry regardless from which country you search from or within. I think it’s safe to say that Qantas would like to target their ads to show up in not only all the countries they fly to and from but even the cities.
The same is true for your example, any one offering virtual services would target all regions. On the other hand an Eskimo in the artic who was selling used igloos would not want his ad showing up in local Australian searches and if his ads were showing up then he is wasting his money. (Yes I know unless he was trying to get people from Australia to move into used igloos in the artic.)
Blocking ads from internationals on localized searches would be like banning a local newspaper from running ads for companies outside of its community. I would consider this protectionism and censorship. (This would be very bad luck for the Eskimo especially if had taken a liking to the people in that community)
Perhaps you see Google as something that is not. I know Google likes to come across as a just for you tool always there to lend a hand but in reality it is nothing more then a business and it’s in the business of selling advertisement.
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Old 10-26-2005   #9
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Hello mrwywy,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

If you are in Canada and you wanted a search "flights to Australia" then this may better be served by not using the regional search. You would think that any airline that has flights from Canada to Australia would target Canada in their advertising/webpage.

With my example with Virtual Offices - the industry definition of this includes a phone number. So if your customers are in Canada then it may be contra to your business to list an Australian phone number requiring the customers to dial internationally and to reach the virtual office out of hours when the phone may not be answered in person. And if you were in Canada and you wanted a Canadian based virtual office service, and you select Pages from Canada then you are done a disservice by having half the sponsored results and lots of the organic results from outside the country. If you are a Canadian based provider of Virtual Office services then you must compete against many international providers of the service in the Canadian regional search - bidding more than you should to obtain position.

Do you know the proportion of people who search in Canada: Pages from the web vs. Pages from Canada? The default is Search the Web so this must skew the searches.

YOUR QUOTE: "an Eskimo in the artic who was selling used igloos would not want his ad showing up in local Australian searches and if his ads were showing up then he was wasting his money."
This is part of my point. The eskimo would not be wasting money so much as any Australian based competitors who must bid against the Eskimo for Adword position. Of course in this case there would not be many competitors.

I think lots of companies do not use the Adword facility to target the ads so the effect is that they then advertise globally.

I would not be interested in blocking results/ads - I am interested in reducing the clutter and beleive that Google could do a lot better. I see regional searches as a great idea yet need to further reduce the clutter from outside the region.

I agree with you that Google is a business. I believe that if they do the right thing and reduce clutter it could also mean fewer sponsored ads yet a greater percentage of relevant sponsored listings for any search, and less competition for Adword position - less $ for Google.

GAustralia
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Old 10-26-2005   #10
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Google vs. Yahoo

From what I have seen Yahoo does a much better job than Google in separating sponsored and organic results on a regional basis. Why can't Google do the same as Yahoo?

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Old 10-27-2005   #11
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GAustralia, I'm an Australian company with a .com domain and my web site is hosted in the US.

How would you suggest Google allows my sponsored ads to appear when you choose "Pages from Australia", but not display pages from outside Australia?
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Old 10-27-2005   #12
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good point splinters, but that is googles problem.

the point raised - and I believe it is a valid point - is that pages from searches include adwords worldwide.

Its an interesting observacion.
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Old 10-27-2005   #13
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As Jenstar has already pointed out, if I want to advertise in another country and am prepared to pay for those clicks, Google must oblige.
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Old 10-27-2005   #14
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If Google should be obliged to show your worldwide (non-local) adds when somebody selects local results only, should we also expect Google to oblige us and show our worldwide (non-local) sites in the organic results of a local search?

Are we saying that just because we pay, we should have something different for the local results?

Irrepsective of the definition of 'local', should it not be one way or the other?
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Old 10-27-2005   #15
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Jenstar states:

Quote:
As an advertiser, why should I be excluded from advertising to those from Australia, simply because my website doesn't happen to be from Australia. If my site/product/service etc is applicable to those in Australia, despite the fact I don't happen to be IN Australia, why should Google exclude me from advertising?
First off, hello Jenstar, I am somewhat reluctant to directly respond to one of your posts, since your reputation proceeds you but, here goes anyway !

I as the searcher have made a decision that I only wont pages servered from Australia (in this example). The advertiser is been excluded by the searcher. Not the search engine. Thats a big differnece.

I believe that Google is a successfull business because it has sustained its focus on its principal objectives, organizing the worlds information in a manner that facilitates the searchers task. I think this is a clear example were this is not occurring. The searcher makes a decision. Chooses to filter the results, but this filter is not applied to the ads.

On a side note: personally I am happy this is not occurring, I am based in Spain, and have a couple of US destined sites hosted here in Spain.
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Old 10-27-2005   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rynert
If Google should be obliged to show your worldwide (non-local) adds when somebody selects local results only, should we also expect Google to oblige us and show our worldwide (non-local) sites in the organic results of a local search?

Are we saying that just because we pay, we should have something different for the local results?
Absolutely. The expectations of someone who pays Google nothing to be listed (organic) shouldn't be the same as those of someone who pays.
In any case, there's no guarantee that organic listings will be truly local anyway when you choose local results.
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Old 10-27-2005   #17
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But isn't it the expectations of the searcher that should be foremost, not the advertiser?

Therefore the results should be consistant, or at the very least it should be transparant to the searcher that the adverts displayed take no notice of their choice to have local results only displayed?
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Old 10-27-2005   #18
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The problem is with the libel; should read "Pages targeting Australia" instead of "Pages from Australia" and be less confusing.
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Old 10-27-2005   #19
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The organic search and the paid adverts are two completely different programs with different criteria and mindsets. Searchers ARE getting au results in the organic search, so their preference is being honored. But advertising is a different matter - if people want to PAY to advertise in the space accompanying the search, as long as it's appropriate to the topic, then it's their money and their loss if the searchers don't convert and give them ROI.

Providing search and selling advertising are two different things and the "preference" is only for search, not for the advertising. Adverts are NOT search results - they're ads.
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Old 10-27-2005   #20
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The interesting part of this is that it is all open for interpretation.

Pages From Australia if defined for both organic and PPC would mean only advertisers who Google interprets as "from Australia" - that could be a .au or an Australian IP or an Australian address in the registry (they have access now) or even an Australian address in the PPC account info.

But it appears that Pages From Australia means organic search even though it has been observed that every country gets slightly weighted results for sites from their country anyway in the organic results.

My question is what happens if you go for the Local approach - use Sydney Vitrual Office etc. - try both broad and exact matching and see how the results are returned....

Also use Keyword Inserts - Sydney Virtual Offices etc. will get a higher CTR and thus move you up at a lower CPC. I would recommend using a local approach:
even if the person is typing in virtual office by creating groups of local areas to send different ads specific to the area will increase your CTR and lower your CPC.
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