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Old 01-07-2005   #1
ThouShaltSeo
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Duplicate Content Penalty Timespan or 302 Redirect

so I delete the pages that linked to me either via 302 or refresh, one about 2 months ago and the other 2 weeks ago, yet the serps didn't change. My pages are all indexed but might as well not be since I get zero traffic. I used to get a fresh tag daily, now I get it about 2X a month. GB stops daily but in most days it grabs 2-10 pages when before it used to grab a few hundred each day.

What's worrying me is that Google did an update during this time and nothing happened. I search for my homepage (with different sentences) and there's no dupes anymore yet with &filter=0 I do great of a few popular keywords. Without it I'm about #50.

Googleguy, if you're reading this please advise on what to do. Does the dupe penalty stay for a certain amount of time regardless, or, does it disappear when the "dupe" pages are removed? Can we ask to have it removed if it was for no fault of our own, but because of faulty redirect handling?

I'm really hurting here, it has been like this since August!!!

I asked the owner of the site that linked to place the disallow on the robots.txt and I submited that url for deletion (via Google's site) and it was deleted around Dec 20th. I really don't know what else to do.

This site had very good rankings and I have plenty of incoming links from all types of sites /PR and the site is at least 6 years old.

Last edited by ThouShaltSeo : 01-07-2005 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 01-08-2005   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThouShaltSeo
Does the dupe penalty stay for a certain amount of time regardless, or, does it disappear when the "dupe" pages are removed?
A dup penalty timespan is based on your offense.

1st Offense: 30 days

2nd Offense: 60 days

3rd Offense: 90 days

So 'if' [for example] you had a 1st Offense and change something and Google detected that and then later found other dup content - you would go to a 2nd Offense timespan.

Quote:
Can we ask to have it removed if it was for no fault of our own, but because of faulty redirect handling?
As this is automatic - I doubt it would be handed removed.

Quote:
I'm really hurting here, it has been like this since August!!!
Be sure that obscure and forgotten pages are not causing you continuing problems.

Quote:
I asked the owner of the site that linked to place the disallow on the robots.txt and I submited that url for deletion (via Google's site) and it was deleted around Dec 20th. I really don't know what else to do.

This site had very good rankings and I have plenty of incoming links from all types of sites /PR and the site is at least 6 years old.
In many instances where GG has publicly aided forum members to appreciate 'cause & effect' something else has materialized to be the offending problem. Just because you had 'dup content' and now removed doesn't mean this was your only problem.

While I am not GG - If you wish to PM forward the url I'll take a look... many times fresh eyes can see what someone with imtimate knowledge can't.
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Old 01-08-2005   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom
A dup penalty timespan is based on your offense.

1st Offense: 30 days

2nd Offense: 60 days

3rd Offense: 90 days

So 'if' [for example] you had a 1st Offense and change something and Google detected that and then later found other dup content - you would go to a 2nd Offense timespan.
Hi Fanthom,
do you this for a fact or ...? If you do, how did you find out?

as far as being automatic: it probably is automatic unless someone intervenes. I doubt that they have a system that no one can correct.
Forgotten pages: I have deleted almost all and changed the path a while back just in case and I search and see nothing as a dupe. Also, domain.com goes to www.domain.com and everything.

This is not just for me (although I'd take since this site pays --or paid-- for my school and supports my parents), a lot of webmasters have been hurt by this issue. Having the penalty continue it's adding insult to injury. I got lucky enough to have the pages deleted and I fear that by the time the penalty expires, more 302 redirects will pop in and the cycle goes on.
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Old 01-08-2005   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThouShaltSeo
Hi Fathom,
do you this for a fact or ...? If you do, how did you find out?

as far as being automatic: it probably is automatic unless someone intervenes. I doubt that they have a system that no one can correct.
Forgotten pages: I have deleted almost all and changed the path a while back just in case and I search and see nothing as a dupe. Also, domain.com goes to www.domain.com and everything.

This is not just for me (although I'd take since this site pays --or paid-- for my school and supports my parents), a lot of webmasters have been hurt by this issue. Having the penalty continue it's adding insult to injury. I got lucky enough to have the pages deleted and I fear that by the time the penalty expires, more 302 redirects will pop in and the cycle goes on.
you 'should' 301 domain.com to www.domain.com but more for usability - I have never actually seen a penalty with this 'unless' you have absolute urls in the website code some to www.domain.com/*and others domain.com/* ...

As www.domain.com is seen as a separate website to domain.com there is no 'dup' 'they DO NOT LINK TO EACH OTHER' unless by accident [noting my previous comment]

however - without seeing the website - this discussiion is purely academic - it could be anything.
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Old 01-08-2005   #5
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the domain.com has been 301 redirecting to the www for months now. How do you know about the duration of the dupe penalties ?

thanks,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom
you 'should' 301 domain.com to www.domain.com but more for usability - I have never actually seen a penalty with this 'unless' you have absolute urls in the website code some to www.domain.com/*and others domain.com/* ...
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Old 01-08-2005   #6
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Yeah I am kinda curious as well. I am familiar with what he says but didn't know it was 30,60,90.
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Old 01-08-2005   #7
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Matt Cutt specifically said this at a WMW PubCon - however, after reviewing your website - this isn't the problem, nor is the www.domain.com / domain.com

If you can take a unique snippet of text from a page 'quote it' in Google and find that page in results - that page isn't penalized - "what-so-ever"...

e.g. "many benefits a search engine optimization campaign can have for your company or website"

Your mainpage is in Google.

Unfortunately, your mainpage is the only page of your website - and this is [more likely than not] your problem.

I've reviewed your 'only' page via all search engines... the fact that Google reports more backlinks for your only page than any other search engine means... all you need is more unique content on adjacent pages and Google will reward you.

Don't go back down the doorway page route - it's nothing but a headache and you know this. Spend a few days coming up with some content ideas, write them, add as new pages, and link them from your mainpage in your grey nav bar on right side.

Also get in the habit of 'something new every day' - you will see the results and be happy with your labor.
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Old 01-12-2005   #8
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Outstanding thread guys! I hope you don't mind, but we had to change the title to "Duplicate Content Penalty Timespan" since the old one was way to long to feature on the SEWF homepage.

Keep up the great discussion and please don't forget to use the "Rate this Thread" and "Rate this Post" features. Your feedback counts a lot!
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Old 01-13-2005   #9
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walkman asks, in a thread November 23, 2004

Quote:
what penalties does Google offer for:

3. Duplicate content
symptoms:
length of penalty:
Brett Tabke's response

Quote:
3- perm as long as the other dupe content is out there. Recovery time: 3-6 months
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/26805.htm

That's about normal recovery time for some other things as well, between re-crawling and PR being updated. It took about that for even a site that slipped out from being down for several days with a server move.
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Old 01-13-2005   #10
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How does Google know a page is a duplicate? With 8 Billion + out there, where would it even start. I can see how/why it would do a dupe check on one domain , but how can it cross-check 8 Billion pages on x million domains?

Isn't a 'mirror site' acceptable for server load and up-time consistency? Google don't seem to mention them as being outside their guidelines.
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Old 01-13-2005   #11
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this is so not fair. First we suffer from a Google bug and then from a penalty because of the bug. Double screwed. With my luck, another site will link me a week before my 3-6 months are up.

Here's a new victim: http://forums.seochat.com/t21098/s.html. How many don't know yet what hit them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcia
walkman asks, in a thread November 23, 2004
Brett Tabke's response
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/26805.htm
That's about normal recovery time for some other things as well, between re-crawling and PR being updated. It took about that for even a site that slipped out from being down for several days with a server move.

Last edited by ThouShaltSeo : 01-13-2005 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 01-13-2005   #12
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I would be more concerned with 'other factors'.

With 'dup'ed content' pages are penalized 'not websites'.

The linking structure can affect this - say a dup'ed page is also a top hierarchical page and much of your other pages link to it... the 'votes' for a penalized page gives the appearance that the penalty is a 'site penalty' when it isn't.

However, in your case it wasn't just 'dup'ed' that caused problems - the 302 also play a part as being 'deceptive'.

I would suspect a 'spam report' went in and a hand removal occurred.

Plead your case to Google.

Last edited by fathom : 01-13-2005 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 01-13-2005   #13
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I would suspect you're 100% wrong.

Nothing has been "removed", just pushed back into no man's land, unless I use &filter=0. If it was manually removed, I wouldn't see anything. And my index page is the one suffering this "dupe" thing, so if that is penalized so is the entire site since almost all inbound links point to it.

And I was linked with a 302, so nothing deceptive about it on my part, just a Google bug that has gone on for way too long. It is inexcusable for a search engine with this much influence and power not to fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom
I would be more concerned with 'other factors'.

With 'dup'ed content' pages are penalized 'not websites'.

The linking structure can affect this - say a dup'ed page is also a top hierarchical page and much of your other pages link to it... the 'votes' for a penalized page gives the appearance that the penalty is a 'site penalty' when it isn't.

However, in your case it wasn't just 'dup'ed' that caused problems - the 302 also play a part as being 'deceptive'.

I would suspect a 'spam report' went in and a hand removal occurred.

Plead your case to Google.

Last edited by ThouShaltSeo : 01-13-2005 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 01-13-2005   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThouShaltSeo
I would suspect you're 100% wrong.

Nothing has been "removed", just pushed back into no man's land, unless I use &filter=0. If it was manually removed, I wouldn't see anything. And my index page is the one suffering this "dupe" thing, so if that is penalized so is the entire site since almost all inbound links point to it.

And I was linked with a 302, so nothing deceptive about it on my part, just a Google bug that has gone on for way too long. It is inexcusable for a search engine with this much influence and power not to fix it.
Sorry ThouShaltSeo not attempting to sound condiscending or judge you - I'm only pointing out what you may not have thought of or other possibilities to look into.
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Old 01-13-2005   #15
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maybe I sounded like a d-ck. Sorry too. Didn't mean to, it's just fustrating since I'm still updating the site daily (many hours of work) and seeing no retun or a glimmer of hope. After a many months it starts to really suck


Quote:
Originally Posted by fathom
Sorry ThouShaltSeo not attempting to sound condiscending or judge you - I'm only pointing out what you may not have thought of or other possibilities to look into.
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Old 01-13-2005   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThouShaltSeo
maybe I sounded like a d-ck. Sorry too. Didn't mean to, it's just fustrating since I'm still updating the site daily (many hours of work) and seeing no retun or a glimmer of hope. After a many months it starts to really suck
Hey no problem... I completely understand the frustration.
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Old 01-13-2005   #17
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most sites likely in some way to not comply with best practices and if you get a human review things like an invisible counter link and spammed up meta description tags and other small little things might become more important.

always worth taking a peak before pleading your case
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Old 01-13-2005   #18
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that's a good point. I'm probably an angel compare to most of those who are topping SEs on my field but that said, very few commercial site owners can comfortably say: "here's my site Google, check it out".

GoogleGuy himself said that any URL or example sent regarding 302 redirects would ONLY be used for this purpose (to identify and correct any mistakes caused by it) and not to manually dish out spam or other related penalties. Like the cops ignoring that joint you have if you tell them where the child molester is hiding

"I'll promise that no spam-related action will be taken based on the reports. If months later, the domain comes up for review for an unrelated reason, then that's a different matter, but I'll instruct whoever collects the feedback to only use it to check out how we pick canonical pages."
I have to take him at his word.


Quote:
Originally Posted by seobook
most sites likely in some way to not comply with best practices and if you get a human review things like an invisible counter link and spammed up meta description tags and other small little things might become more important.

always worth taking a peak before pleading your case

Last edited by ThouShaltSeo : 01-13-2005 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 01-13-2005   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThouShaltSeo
GoogleGuy himself said that any URL or example sent regarding 302 redirects would ONLY be used for this purpose (to identify and correct any mistakes caused by it) and not to manually dish out spam or other related penalties. I have to take him at his word.
was that in reference to others hijacking your site -or- on doing your own 302 redirects on yourself. not sure if it was that broad sweeping as any 302 sent to us has amnisty.
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Old 01-13-2005   #20
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It makes it very difficult to follow along with a "site review" when no one else has seen the site; it isn't possible to know what's being discussed.

>>I would suspect you're 100% wrong.
>>Nothing has been "removed", just pushed back into no man's land,

Removed from the index is another matter - then the site just isn't in there any more. Google is very good at detecting dups - and needs to be.

With duplicates, all that happens is that the first is what counts and others are ignored.

Getting hijacked by a 302 is a different story. I've got a site hit by that tracker2.php thing and it's just tough luck on me for now. Not fair, but it'll have wait for Google to get their act together on it. Sites just need to survive on MSN & Yahoo in the meantime if that happens.
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