Conversion VS. Optimization

[ConversionCat]

Conversion and optimization work against each other and ultimately battle for your time and attention. So where should you spend your time? What's more important? What should you do first?

Let’s face it, these two worlds are completely different. If you add 200 words to your home page (more often that not it will help your SEO standing); but what does 200 superfluous words do to your conversion metric? I can tell ya, it will cause it to plummet.

So ideally one should test their landing pages and conversion opportunities in the PPC world and serve the knowledge to an SEO professional to complete the loop. So long as the SEO professional does not tweak the core elements of the page that preserve your high submission percentage, you will benefit from smarter marketing.

This sounds all well in good in theory, but would my peers go as far as to call it a best practice?

[AussieWebmaster]

Conversion and optimization work against each other and ultimately battle for your time and attention. So where should you spend your time? What's more important? What should you do first?

Let’s face it, these two worlds are completely different. If you add 200 words to your home page (more often that not it will help your SEO standing); but what does 200 superfluous words do to your conversion metric? I can tell ya, it will cause it to plummet.

So ideally one should test their landing pages and conversion opportunities in the PPC world and serve the knowledge to an SEO professional to complete the loop. So long as the SEO professional does not tweak the core elements of the page that preserve your high submission percentage, you will benefit from smarter marketing.

This sounds all well in good in theory, but would my peers go as far as to call it a best practice?

You can do both if you use the occasional image box to push users to where you want them once they have come from organic search for a page.

Also by doing effective optimization you are using the terms that attract the traffic and should be written in such a way as to convert also.

If you are talking about PPC conversion that can be done with specific landing pages that can also be used to link to in the other pages.

[James Colborn]

This would be easier to discuss if we had definitions of both conversion and optimization and the types of search we are talking about. For me optimizing a campaign (be in PPC, PFI or Organic) is improving it's conversion rate in many instances... I'm not entirely sure what 'work against each other means'.

If you could elaborate here then I think it opens up the discussion.

Thanks. :)

[AussieWebmaster]

This would be easier to discuss if we had definitions of both conversion and optimization and the types of search we are talking about. For me optimizing a campaign (be in PPC, PFI or Organic) is improving it's conversion rate in many instances... I'm not entirely sure what 'work against each other means'.

If you could elaborate here then I think it opens up the discussion.

Thanks. :)

Definitions are always good for clarification of conversation.

[donut]

Conversion and optimization work against each other and ultimately battle for your time and attention.

That is the statement of someone who understands neither how to sell or how to optimize. It is possible and not terribly hard to write great copy that is keyword rich- you just can't hack up things for the search engines.

There are some very good SEO copywriters out there- consider hiring one before "optimizing" a page that makes it worse for users.

[ihelpyou]

but what does 200 superfluous words do to your conversion metric? I can tell ya, it will cause it to plummet.
That is false. As donut said, good copy will often raise ROI. People like to read to learn if the site knows the product it's offering. You don't sound like someone who understands SEO. Even if you are talking about PPC, a landing page specific to PPC can be implemented so you can tweak any copy or images or anything else.

A good SEO also implements a Professional SEO copywriter. That person knows how to write for 'your' visitors and also write for engines. Not toooo many in the world can do that well.

[ihelpyou]

Let me revise my comment; You are correct in that "many" seo's don't use a "Professional SEO copywriter". Let me repeat; many don't. So in that sense, I can see why you might think that. Only a few I know of actually will spend up to 300 bucks just to have one page of real good copy written. Most seo's write the copy themselves and have no business doing so.

[AussieWebmaster]

I agree writing solid copy that uses slect keywords and synonyms is tricky, but hopefully after a few people read this they will add the idea to their work.
It is however, more than just the restrictions of SEOs that make the job tough. Many times the senior company people have opinions and slow the process or in some cases sidetrack it by miles.
Then the SEO has to show the benefit of the suggestions and slowly convert the corporate mindset to what unrestricted and sucessful optimization can achieve. I have been working for 14 months and am just now getting to the point where meetings are held on a weekly basis between design, sales and SEM.
Maybe with another 14 we will be fully there on the organic side to compliment the serious committment that we have to PPC.

[ConversionCat]

Before I defend my original statement I must say a couple of you have taken my argument for face value. I am not trying to argue that keyword copy doesn’t convert. I am trying to say that the PPC environment is a better venue for testing conversion practices, and one should test key page elements in a flexible environment and then once you have proven statistics, make the changes on the SEO end.

I would be pretty surprised if people consider SEO a more favorable environment to test for ‘conversion’ than PPC. Let’s face it, PPC is incredibly flexible and precise. And when changing multiple page variables at once (with products like Optimost.com) SEO is virtually impossible to hold your positions.

The keyword example, was obviously a bad example to try and make this point. But I challenge you to see passed my short sided example, and take the theory for what its worth.

So my statement holds, take a landing page and test it in the PPC world first. Once you have identified what variables have the best conversion, implement them into your pages that are optimized pages without changing the balance of your page.

People are very naïve to think you can simply put a big image on the page displaying in the SERPS and have all that traffic make it to your landing page.

[ihelpyou]

What does optimost.com have to do with your post? Is that your site?

Oh sure, a page strictly up for PPC is certainly better at testing, but that was not your original comment in your first post. You said that SEO and conversions don't jive, or something to that affect. I agreed with you that "many" seo's don't know how to write and I gave an alternative for that.

If now your question is if a PPC landing page is better at testing than a regular organic website page, then yes it is, is my answer. That's common sense stuff.

[ConversionCat]

How many SEM's do you know that take out PPC ads for their clients to test for Conversion and then implement their findings into their site?

In my experience, NOT MANY. You may say common sense, but I say you will be lucky if 10% of so called experts conduct themselves in this manner.

[ihelpyou]

If you are good and know your copywriter is good and the record shows as such, no need to 'take out' a ppc ad just to test.

If this is somehow to advertise your optimost.com 'test' site, then no thanks to that as well. :)

[ConversionCat]

I don't know why you think I have an angle here. I am not trying to advertising optimost.com. I work for a firm that uses their solution and I have found it to be critical to conversion testing, and I thought I would share. If I were going to advertising anything it would be my site. http://integralimpressions.com

[ihelpyou]

hey, link drop if you wish. If they allow it here, good for you.

IMO, people can see your site in your profile so no need to drop the link.

I simply don't see the need for testing on PPC ads if you already know that a good conversion rate is going to happen if the content is wrote by a good seo copywriter.

I can see using your theory if the seo does not use a real copywriter.

[ConversionCat]

Its not just copy though. Graphics, Submit Button Text, Layout, Page Elements, Header Copy, Body Copy, Progress Indicator... all these can dramatically affect your conversion. If you increase your overall site conversion by just 10-20% you can signficiantly increase you bottom line.

I did a really poor job at executing the point I wanted to make, but nonetheless I think its valid.

[AussieWebmaster]

Come on Guys let's keep this on topic... debate is a great way to learn but flames are a waste of time....

[ihelpyou]

Tell me Aussie, where do you see a flame?

I see a couple of link drops, but no flames. Yes, keep it on topic please. No need to call something a flame as that is off topic and not pertinent.

[rustybrick]

:) - respect each other, or act to respect each other.

[AussieWebmaster]

The comment was not necessarily intended for you (ihelpyou).
I love debate but there were a few comments that were mere rebukes of a person's skills or sense.
On a separate note check your home page look in Netscape (the nav bar and copy are a little off) that method of nav bar fairs poorly in Netscape.

[projectphp]

How many SEM's do you know that take out PPC ads for their clients to test for Conversion and then implement their findings into their site?
I think it all depends on what role any person plays in another's site. Some SEOs do nothing but offer advice. Decisions on what to implement, and the actual implementation, is left to the client to work out. In such a circumstance, the method you propose is superfluous.

Its not just copy though. Graphics, Submit Button Text, Layout, Page Elements, Header Copy, Body Copy, Progress Indicator... all these can dramatically affect your conversion. If you increase your overall site conversion by just 10-20% you can signficiantly increase you bottom line.
Absolutely agree. That is the problem with so much of the internet: boundaries. Where does an SEO's responsibility end? Do SEMs that deal exclusively in PPC have the right to make SEO comments?

Really, what you are talking about ConversionCat is not SEM/O but complete website optimisation. A great gig if you can get it, but chances are most often the gig will include one area or another.

I did a really poor job at executing the point I wanted to make, but nonetheless I think its valid.
Maybe (well, probably :)) Nonetheless, I think conversion rates, how to test them and what tools are available a fascinating topic.

I really love grok dot com (http://www.grokdotcom.com), and this arrticle by Bryan Eisenberg (http://www.clickz.com/experts/design/traffic/article.php/3353241) is another great area to look at, if you haven't already.

[ConversionCat]

I think it all depends on what role any person plays in another's site. Some SEOs do nothing but offer advice. Decisions on what to implement, and the actual implementation, is left to the client to work out. In such a circumstance, the method you propose is superfluous.
The trouble is, most SEOs see the world optimized out. They first look through the lens of optimization, and then worry about conversion later (if at all).
In my humble opinion, I beleive the marketer needs to be savvy in all aspects of Internet marketing (from capture to conversion).
A great gig if you can get it
Call me crazy, but I am trying to build a business around getting those gigs. Wish me luck.

Oh yea, I'm a BIG fan of The Grok. Their new blog is pretty good. I love the way they write. I also like http://MarketingSherpa.com.

[enhancedconcepts]

Hi everyone. I am new to this forum. What a great discussion.

I agree with ConversionCat and with Ihelpyou.

Interestingily though experience has shown me that each traffic strategy converts differently even when using the same keyword. Recent research I believe in MarketingSherpa suggested that organic listings actually convert better than PPC.

So although I setup PPC first followed by SEO for my clients, ultimately they need to be treated separately when determining conversion strategies.

Outside conversion differences, PPC is a great way to test landing page conversion but I wouldn't assume that an effective landing page for PPC will achieve the same results for SEO. It seems that user click behavior differs between paid listings and organic listings.

We could have an outstanding discussion on the pros and cons of developing a marketing plan that most effectively uses SEO and PPC.

[fathom]

The trouble is, most SEOs see the world optimized out. They first look through the lens of optimization, and then worry about conversion later (if at all).
In my humble opinion, I beleive the marketer needs to be savvy in all aspects of Internet marketing (from capture to conversion).

As there is a vast assortment of SEO(M) out there I doubt anyone can assume "most".

I qualify SEO(M) as not design companies that offers value added services... but where the company's primary revenue is from "search" as opposed to design.

As a fair margin "only rank" sites and don't concern themselves with "visitation" the "conversion of" (I assume sales as per PPC topic) is even less of a concern.

The fact that this model is widely used in all advertising/promotion segments e.g. newspapers guarantee circulation (not ad eyeballs) thus again conversions is of little concern and internal staff usually include marketing personnel with far more experience in the niche than an SEO.

Another group ventures together "traffic conversions" yet this is still a world away from "sales conversions"... and if we are truly talking about "converting sales" and in "all industries" and "all markets" complete with cultural diversity - that's a bit of a stretch.

You are (must be) highly specialized to be outside of a business's specific model and be able to induce "better sales" and more likely than not targeting only niche segments... or at the very least have limited experience outside of a small number of segments.

Additionally, if you are servicing one man/mom & pop operations (e.g. no marketing personnel) well this isn't servicing the industry either just a small part of it.

I have "some" clients that are commission based - as I have a great deal of inside knowledge in their specific niche - but by no means is this inclusive for all industries.

However, organic and PPC actually does have a meeting place -- the title/snippet vs. text ad copy and both can improve "traffic ROI" via solid ad copy to get the eyeballs, and by proxy higher sales potential... this is still just "conversion potential" and not conversions themselves.

Be that as it may - going beyond the "market awareness" and "market interest" level (that is inducing the click) and actually inducing "and categorically" better conversions you are likely under charging your services... as there is no other media marketer that can "absolutely" remove this risk from the client -- and all clients. :-)