SEMPO Meeting at SES San Jose 2004

[rustybrick]

There has been some interesting discussion in the Mike Grehan Stirs Up SEMPO Controversy (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=775) thread. It might just be the most popular topic in this forum to date. The moderators at SEW have decided to close that thread and start a new one based on SEMPO's response. Let me first summarize the issues brought up in the SEW thread.

- Barbara's salary
- Lake of communication to members
- What is SEMPO doing for the industry?
- SEMPO's goals are unclear
- Board member elections
- the list goes on

Please check out the Mike Grehan Stirs Up SEMPO Controversy (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=775) thread for more details.

I will follow up this post with my coverage on SEMPO's San Jose 2004 meeting at SES. Feel free to continue the discussion at this thread based on my notes from the members only meeting. Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors.

[rustybrick]

First, they checked everyone who walked in to make sure they are a SEMPO member - this was not done at the Chicago meeting. They locked and closed the doors right when they started. The room is packed, a lot more members since the last meeting I attended in Chicago in December 2003.

Dana Todd said we are going to be very formal but hold all questions until the end. Lots of tension in the air. She introduced Barbara Coll as our fearless leader. Coll started off stating that she has looked back and SEMPO accomplishments and she is proud of what is done.

- Formed a 501c(6)
- 249 members
- 9 press releases (half a million impressions from this)
- numerous mentions online and offline
- sempo site referenced often as a resource.

She says UK is the second largest member base. She talks about how to improve international awareness. Raise awareness of SEM is a goal of year two. They launched an advertising campaign today which they will go into later. Lobbying for SEM panels at advertising and marketing conferences to get SEMPO mentioned (example AdTech had one SEM panel and next time they will have 5 panels). Press campaigns. The new SEMPO tag line is "Top of Search = Top of Mind." SEMPO has 50+ volunteers, 9 subcommittees (they want someone in the UK, they need someone to stand up and do it), interim executive director role established, new committees and new chairs and they still need more resources. They promised to clean up their act in member communications. They said it was an oversight and they apologize. In March they looked at the budget and saw they can afford an executive director. She said that in March they decided to hire an interim executive director. The board offered to pay Barbara for 2 hours per day ($300/hour) because she was really spending 5 hours per day. They are going to bring someone new in but she is just temporary. They are going to ask us who we want to have as our board. She said, "there was no reason for not telling you (sempo members), they were sloppy." Barbara doesn't want to be in this role, they want someone with experience with non-profits to run it. But they can not afford a $350,000 salary but they will do their best.

They raised $266,830 to date. Members bring in 77% of the income and sponsors only bring in 23%. They admit they are not good at creating value for their members.

Year One Accomplishments:
- They established themselves
- Research started
- Marketing plan and campaign outlines
- Formal budget for 04-05
- Press and visibility worldwide
- SEMPO public site
- Member site with job listings, RFP postings and restricted content
- Discounts on tools, research and conferences.

Year Two Goals:
- Better membership communications
- Executive Director hire no later then December 04
- Public elections
- Staggered replacement/election for BOD in 2005
- Offline ads
- Heavy press activities
- Defining Best Business Practices
- Increase membership by 100%
- Increase sponsorship by 200%

That covers Barbara's speech, she introduces Dan Boberg from Overture.

Dan Boberg from Overture: He discussed overture's network and product suite. They support SEM (were the first to support SEMs) and they support SEMPO. Overture has an "Ambassador Program", and about ten of the reps stood up to show they are here. He introduced them all and told us how to work with them for more info.

Darrin Rayner from Verizon SuperPages was next up, they are a new SEMPO sponsor. I personally don't have a good history with Verizon SuperPages or AOL Yellow Pages, they just did not perform for me. But that doesn't mean it won't perform for you. They joined SEMPO to get feedback from us and they know they are far from where they need to be to make it worthwhile for SEMs. They want to develop a communication with us to build a better product. Verizon says they power local search (i.e. MSN local). In March 2004 they launched a new site with natural search, category taxonomy and more. They clapped him off the stage because we all want to hear from SEMPO more, not Verizon.

Dana Todd now is discussing the marketing committee. They created a creative platform and marketing strategy. They defined their target audience as marketing decision makers and budget controllers. They built a new tag line. The 2004 budget for marketing is $110,000. They advertising flight schedule is Aug. 1 - Sept. 30 for first wave tests and Sept. 1 - Nove. 15 for second wave ads. the venues are AdWeek/Brandweek/MediaWeek, ClickZ Network, CoolNews, Other considerations such as fortune and others. They showed us their banner ads for AdWeek and other areas. They developed quite a few creatives, all from volunteers. They need (1) more money, (2) print ads, direct mail, (3) need more volunteers, (4) need new content for site, (5) make banners for members to put on their site, (6) members to do "booth duty", and (7) an international campaign "desired" in 2005.

Research Committee discussion from Rick Bruner (Executive Summary Consulting). We pay this guy to do our research, he does research for Amex, Gillette, MSN, etc. Key research objectives include size the search marketing section, distribution of industry spending, key industry trends, and key industry issues SEMPO should address.

SEMPO Japan, they call him 'K' (Koichiro Fukasawa) from Wasabi communications. He is launching the SEMPO Japan committee. She discussed the size of the Japan market (in 2004 $300 million so far and growing). Internet popularity is growing as well. Japan needs SEMPO because they are lacking information. http://www.sempo.jp/ to be launched the 19th of this month.

Barbara is going to complete the session with a finance discussion. Financials will posted through March 30, 04 on the Web site. Budget Q3 and Q4 will be broken out mostly to infrastructure and marketing. Three board members will be elected by members and we will be emailed next week. They want people to step up and elect themselves.

Q & A Now managed by Noel:

Q: What are members getting in return from the membership fees?
A: Noel responded saying that if your asking what is in it for me, then your missing the point of SEMPO. What you put into SEMPO is what you get. Dana Todd said that you are posting in forums but tell us what you want. Coll asked how many of you feel we did something, she asked for applause and she got them.

Q: Is SEMPO thinking about "collaborative marketing"?
A: It seemed to me that the panel were surprised, they said "they loved it". They now welcome it.

Some more statements were made to support sempo but nothing too interesting to note on.

Q: Barry Lloyd was given the mic. Does SEMPO have a constitution or by-laws? Do the members have a say in that?
A: SEMPO does have by-laws that were signed off in March. They couldn't afford an attorney so they are not so professional. They want to improve them.

Barbara is going to close the meeting. She said she admits she was nervous. Give us feedback she says, it will make for a better organization.

[orion]

Hello, there. Yes, here is my feedback.

Why we have to findout about this Netapplications.com endorsement in which she is quoted as wearing two hats in a marketing promo?

http://www.netapplications.com/sempo/

They are using the following marketing material and I quote:

"Private Label Programs for SEMPO Members

"As a Co-Branded Reseller of Hitslink I can extend my brand by offering this indispensable product to my clients. They trust WebMama.com as their search engine marketing firm to recommend tools like website statistics to ensure that their marketing campaigns are succeeding." Barbara Coll, CEO of WebMama.com (www.webmama.com) & President of Search Engine Marketing Professional Organization (www.sempo.org). "

Note they are quoting this as an endorsement of Barbara Coll, by name and by the two hats she wears. They also add this to the marketing material and I quote:

"As a SEMPO member, when you sign up as a private label partner you get a free stats account to use for your own business.* See below for details..."

Again, why SEMPO let a commercial site to play the branding game involving WebMama.com and SEMPO names and let her use the two hats in the above promo? We found out webmama.com also has a business relationship with netapplications and the endorsed product. (http://webmama.hitslink.com/support.aspx)

Sloppy, lack of judgement? I bet is conflict of interests and self-promotion. The industry does not need this kind of temporary leadership. She must resign, the sooner the better. Do we have to keep digging and finding things like these? I'm sure SEMPO members can spot better leadership within the audience. Someone at SEMPO please, step in, now.

Orion

[rustybrick]

For some reason, the majority of the sempo members are not as upset as you are. There was an overwhelming sign of support for Barbara Coll and the current board. The board did however make sure to point out that there will be a new board elected by the members. They also said the need to replace Coll with an experienced person who can run a non-profit.

[orion]

Rusty, I'm upset at the facts that are outthere, no more, no less. Feel free to revisit the links provided. I accept their decision and respect it.

Orion

[rustybrick]

I am not arguing with you, they were not 'diplomatic' decisions made by "SEMPO's fearless leader'. But its a new role for her and its obviously a position she should not be in at this point. I am pretty sure she understands this and looking to get out asap. But she can't just step out without having someone to step in. (maybe she can but I personally think that would be a bad decision for the betterment of SEMPO's future)

I think threads like these have helped SEMPO greatly.

[orion]

Rusty, I know you are not arguing.

The outcome sounds reasonable to me. I applaud this outcome and give her credit for stepping down in the near future. I also give you credit.


Orion

[stever]

The room is packed, a lot more members since the last meeting I attended in Chicago in December 2003.

...

- 249 members

the majority of the sempo members

From your estimate then, most of the members were at the meeting?

[rustybrick]

Orion, I shy away from making an opinion on SEMPO, so I deserve no credit.

Steve, there were obviously non-members allowed it. When I walked in, they stopped me to make sure I was a member (they had a list and checked my badge). Maybe they also allowed "press", "exhibitors" and others in. Maybe people stopped manning the door. I don't know.

I just report what I saw.

[stever]

I wasn't trying to make any point to you, rustybrick - just to get a picture (for example, if most SEMPO members attended the meeting and if the majority of SEMPO members attend an SES in California).

Thanks for your report.

[rustybrick]

Steve, I really don't know. "SEMPO Only meeting" but there were more then 300 people in the room (at least I think there were). Is that possible based on there only being ~250 members? Obviously not. So they must of let others in. I hope someone else who was there can comment on this.

[Mel]

It may be that these early shortcoming were merely errors of judgement by inexperienced but well intentioned individuals but the plugs for the individual businesses seem to continue even in the latest Press Releases. This is not the hallmark of a professional organizations who will often provide a biography of a person when they are appointed to a position, but do not continue to provide links to that persons company in Press Releases etc.

In my opinion I see SEMPO setting themselves up as the voice for the entire SEM community, but having a membership of perhaps less than 1% of that community, and being perceived by many in that community as an organization mostly to foster the affairs of the top circle members. Having closed meetings does not help this impression at all, and what is the point if there is nothing to hide? How do they expect to attract new members if thier meetings are not open to all?

I sincerely hope that SEMPO can reinvent itself into an organization which serves all in the community it purports to represent, and this IMO will require that all memberships and privelges are offered on an equal opportunity basis.

I agree that Ms Coll is to be applauded for the beginnings that have been made, but I really doubt that setting her salary on a $300 per hour basis is rational at all. This would equate to $624,000 per year for a full time position, and this is simply unreasonable for a nonprofit organization with 249 members. Anyone competent company manager would have no trouble at all filling this position (full time) at a salary well below $100,000 per year, so IMO this is either incompent management or profiteering.

[pleeker]

Well said, Mel.

Great reports, Barry -- thanks for being the eyes and ears for all who can't be there. Perhaps it's a good thing this all hit the proverbial fan in many forums, because it sounds like there wasn't much of a stink raised in person....

Noel responded saying that if your asking what is in it for me, then your missing the point of SEMPO.
See, that's the problem. Seems like many in the industry don't see the point of SEMPO, other than to benefit those who are in SEMPO. Kind of a Catch-22. They need to either REALLY focus on serving the industry as a whole, or change the mission statement to become a group that benefits its members.

Give us feedback she says, it will make for a better organization.
Well, feedback alone won't do anything. Action will. Transparency, communication, integrity, focus on serving all -- the meeting is over and now it's time for deeds. I really do hope SEMPO can flourish for everyone's benefit and that these are just growing pains.

[bethabernathy]

I agree that Ms Coll is to be applauded for the beginnings that have been made, but I really doubt that setting her salary on a $300 per hour basis is rational at all.

Hi There - I went to the meeting. It is $150.00 per hour at a maximum of 2 hours a day for Barbara. Just to clarify.

In my impression, the meeting was chaotic. I attended several sessions where speakers where very eloquent and well organized. This was not the case at this meeting. Maybe I am just new to Internet Trade groups (as they coin Sempo). I am not sure.

I do appreciate B. Coll acknowledging that she does not have a strong background in starting up a non profit org and that she does not want to be the Executive Director.

I do think, perhaps the original board. may have been the right "Face" people to get the organization going, but at this point, the organization's image is at a crux. There has been no Due Diligence, the $ in your face deal, is just ugly. Forcing people to applaud in a meeting is just weird in my opinion.

But, that said, all in all, I think if they have the time, to focus on a well thought out transition, perhaps, Sempo can be a great trade association for this industry. That is yet to be seen, but they have asked for help and the question is will they take it without resentment.

Again about the $ thing, it was everywhere. No money, can you give me money, no money for lawyers, I had to get paid as I was working too many hours ... blah, blah, blah. This is highly unprofessional for a 1 year anniversary meeting that was subject to a fairly major scandal. This meeting should have been conducted and coordinated with the so called new Go Forward Attitude, not the past attitude. And that it was not!! But ... time will tell and I wish them the best.

Short of a back link, it is not a group that I would say, give Sempo a call and they can provide you with all the research, details and more related to the professionals and SEM. Frankly, I think if I did that I would lose a potential client. Sorry, just being honest.

Happy back in Tahoe with my pups and I hope to Go Forward very soon on this one. :)

[Chris_D]

Thanks for the updates Barry and Beth. Sincerely.

Barry - why don't you offer your services as official minute taker to Sempo? The more I think about it, the more annoying it is that Sempo hold meetings - and appears to have the attitude that 'if you weren't there - you don't care'. I'll be waiting with baited breath to see if there are any minutes of this meeting emailed to members - especially non USA based members.

Why don't Sempo hold their next meeting at the 2005 Sydney Australia Search Engine Summit conference?

[bethabernathy]

The more I think about it, the more annoying it is that Sempo hold meetings - and appears to have the attitude that 'if you weren't there - you don't care'.

Very apparent at this meeting, move the ownership of the problem onto your members. It is almost text book. There is a nice Coyote howling outside my window.

[Mel]

Bit of a disparity there, Rustys notes say 2 hours per day at $300 per hour and you are saying 2 hours per day at $150 Per Hour, but regardless even at the $150 per hour rate that is exhorbitant for any non profit with less than 250 members, and which has raised a total of just over $250,000 as its total income for the year, so at least 30% of its total income goes to paying for the services of a part time CEO.

I know of no well run business or non profit who spend 30 % of thier total income on salary for the CEO. By way of comparasion that would work out to a CEOs salary of $300,000,000 based on Googles projected 2004 earnings, and even if you divide that among the three top officers you can be sure they are not spending money like that.

[Brad]

rustybrick, nice job on the reporting of the meeting. Thanks for doing that.

It seems like all they really are going to do is try to communicate better. Frankly is sounds like the same underlying problems spelled out by Mike will still exist.

>>by-laws

Good to know they actually have some. By-laws should have, at least, been posted in a members area on the website immediately after ratification. No excuses - those by-laws belong to the members not just the annointed few. By-laws can tell members all sorts of things about an organization. (Gee, and they say they need content...)

Q: Is SEMPO thinking about "collaborative marketing"?

What do they mean by collaborative marketing?

[DianeV]

Year Two Goals:
<snip>
- Defining Best Business Practices

What do they mean by this, how do they propose to go about it, and what will they they do with it?

[qwerty]

And what will become of those members who fail to meet the standards set by such definitions?

[ihelpyou]

This 'best practice' issue would not be able to be resolved by SEMPO in any circumstances. That is not their mission. They have lost focus on what the true mission is. It should be a two-prong mission that run parallel. Right now, it's just a few big agencies scrambling to figure out how they got themselves into this position.

They need to start from scratch with an action plan.

If they asked me, I could put together that plan. It would be detailed and step by step. My way of donating without being a member. By following this plan, thousands would jump on-board and SEMPO would truly be an organization the SEM Industry could be proud of. If you go down the same path by scratching the surface with "band-aide" solutions, you will quickly realize that the majority of firms in this industry will not buy it.

[thejenn]

To step in and address the issue on establishing best practices, Barbara made sure to mention that the board understands the firestorm that could potentially be associated with that move. THe most likely course of action that SEMPO would take would be to set up a business ethics requirement along the lines of the full disclosure issue.

In other words, if you are using risky tactics, you need to disclose the potential risk of those tactics and let your client make the decision on whether or not you would use them. While it's not the ideal way to do things, it would certainly up the credibility of SEMPO in my eyes. I prefer a white hat style ethics line, but understand the difficulties in both setting up, keeping updated and enforcing such a line, thus, from the very beginning, I've suggested a "full disclosure" requirement as an alternative. I'm happy to hear that they are now considering adding one.

Also, I must state that I was personally dissapointed that the bulk of the meeting time was taken up by "salesy" presentations by Overture and Verizon. Combined, those two companies took up about 35-40 minutes of a meeting that was supposed to last about an hour. Since both companies have booths and networking parties during the week, I would have much rather seen that time cut in half and the remaining time added to the Q&A session at the end of the meeting.

And yes, they did let some press into the room, which is how I got there.

[ihelpyou]

In other words, if you are using risky tactics, you need to disclose the potential risk of those tactics and let your client make the decision on whether or not you would use them.
Yes, and what exactly would be a good disclosure, would be one question. Second: How would they know that firm is actually disclosing anything?

Besides, IMO, that form of ethics is useless. They don't have much of a clue as to what direction they want to go.
Also, I must state that I was personally dissapointed that the bulk of the meeting time was taken up by "salesy" presentations by Overture and Verizon. Combined, those two companies took up about 35-40 minutes of a meeting that was supposed to last about an hour. Since both companies have booths and networking parties during the week, I would have much rather seen that time cut in half and the remaining time added to the Q&A session at the end of the meeting.
Goes to show exactly what 'things' are really about. Since it's obvious the real mission is "promote the few, and promote PPC", then they should state it forcefully and go from there. I would also suggest they drop the non-profit status.

[thejenn]

Besides, IMO, that form of ethics is useless. They don't have much of a clue as to what direction they want to go.

The "IMO" being the key point there Doug. ;)

The reality is that they are not going to make everyone, or even most people happy with whatever they decide. I for one am just happy to see them even start to talk about setting up some type of ethics and or business practice requirements. It's a start...

You never have all the details figured out when you start to plan something, that's why it's starting to plan and not launching.

I'm willing to give them some time to see what they come up with and then to take a look at it and reconsider joining, since that was my primary reason for not doing so in the first place.

[bethabernathy]

>>by-laws

Good to know they actually have some. By-laws should have, at least, been posted in a members area on the website immediately after ratification. No excuses - those by-laws belong to the members not just the annointed few. By-laws can tell members all sorts of things about an organization. (Gee, and they say they need content...)


B. Coll stated that the By-Laws will be made available to the members upon request, but they are not to be shared (something of that nature). Although Dana Todd said that the By-Laws were put together like a cut and paste deal as they couldn't afford a lawyer.

They also provided an email address for contact of info@sempo.com.

[qwerty]

They also provided an email address for contact of info@sempo.com. Not .org? I know they own the .com domain, but it redirects to the .org, and all the addresses on their contact page are user@sempo.org.

[Brad]

B. Coll stated that the By-Laws will be made available to the members upon request, but they are not to be shared (something of that nature).

That sounds like an evasion to me. It means 'don't bother us.' In reading through a lot of threads on SEMPO both old and new, at several fourms, evasion from SEMPO seems to be the the one consistant theme.

I think SEMPO lost their best chance to be a worthwhile institution at this meeting. IMHO they are just waiting for this to die down and for you-all to go away so that they can go back to SEMPO business as usual.

Let the buyer beware.

[bethabernathy]

I had thought that was strange, but I sent and email to them requesting a copy of the By-Laws a minute ago and it hasn't bounced.

They have a booth set up at SES today, so I am sure they are busy, but what else is new. I think they need some real help. They need to get someone in their office full time to answer phones, emails, get paperwork organized, etc.

I am still interested in who is the owner of SEMPO, are they a DBA and I would like their annual report. I have requested that, so I am hoping they will send it to me.

[NFFC]

>They need to get someone in their office full time to answer phones, emails, get paperwork organized, etc.

Easier said than done, thats $350,000 a year job "minimum".

Maybe they should contact Tom Ridge, he is Homeland Security Secretary and charged with defending the US from terrorist attacks, only earns $175,000 a year. The grapevine says he is on the lookout for a better paid job, he could find it at SEMPO, maybe the additional responsibility will put him off though?

[ihelpyou]

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=775

I think SEMPO needs to read that thread from start to finish. Then, they need to address "all" the issues as these are pretty much the same issues in many other fora. I don't see when or how or where they do much of explaining the "why" of all of this. We get PR-Guy doing a good job of 'fixing" things in press releases, but after the fact. We also get other board members blowing smoke with no real answers to much of anything.

Danny S. suggested to do things pretty much "now". They have seemed to ignore that completely by stating that things will be changed "at end of year". That's ridiculous. These problems are now, not in 6 months.

Do they honestly expect all businesses in SEM sign on to this mess? What, we give you our money so you can promote the few big businesses? You are not getting it.

The idea that 40 minutes of a SEMPO was taken up by Overture is truly pathetic. All the problems that fora around the world have raised concerns over since over one year, and you all brush it off as business as usual? What's up with that?

[ihelpyou]

Easier said than done, thats $350,000 a year job "minimum".
Goodness. What does George W. Bush earn per year? Not that salary.

They are not living in reality. I know capable people who would do a secretaries job for $30,000 per year, and happily do so from home.

This is not rocket science.

[thejenn]

The idea that 40 minutes of a SEMPO was taken up by Overture is truly pathetic.

Just to make sure the facts are straight, Overture spoke for 15-20 minutes max. Verizon Super Pages also spoke. I said that between the two of them, I estimate they spoke for 35-40 minutes. Yes, your point still stands, but it wasn't all Overture.

[bethabernathy]

Related to my phone person idea. I am thinking more of a secretary/receptionist. That couldn't be much more than $35K or so. They could get a student from Stanford or Menlo college even part time. I am talking about someone to make copies, etc. Secretarial position.

That said, I am now very upset. I checked my bank account and when I signed up for membership I put in my credit card number. Now I see two Sempo transactions on my account for $299. It is this sort of thing that they need someone in the office for. I have tried to call and it just says leave a message. So, I am being charged the 2nd transaction, what is going on. This is bad.

[The PR Guy]

The vast majority of the reporting on last night's SEMPO meeting has been factually accurate. However, I need to make a couple of corrections.

First, Barbara Coll is not being paid $300 an hour. SEMPO is paying her $150 an hour for two hours a day, five days a week. That's $1,500 a week. She did say last night that her normal consulting rate is $300 an hour, but she isn't billing SEMPO at her normal rate. She also said that she is working on SEMPO business more than two hours a day, but isn't billing for more than two-hours.

Second, the SEMPO board decided to make Barbara the acting executive director in March 2004, but this didn't begin until May.

These are the facts. While I am tempted to add some color commentary, I'll stick with the facts. I know, I know, this isn't what you'd expect from the PR guy. But according to a press release issued by Meredith A.C. Roth, I'm "the bearded guy you'd vote least-likely-to-be-in-public relations." Go to http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb144533.htm to read it for yourself. Meredith also called me "sartorially challenged" and one of the 10 "worst dressed" people at the Search Engine Strategies. These are also facts. I don't dispute them.

[NFFC]

>Related to my phone person idea. I am thinking more of a secretary/receptionist. That couldn't be much more than $35K or so. They could get a student from Stanford or Menlo college even part time. I am talking about someone to make copies, etc. Secretarial position.

Make copies as well? You are crazy, you can't get that expertise for less than $600,000 a year.

Next you will be asking for someone that actually answers emails from potential members, you will push the price point to over $1 million with that kind of job spec. ;)

[ihelpyou]

First, Barbara Coll is not being paid $300 an hour. SEMPO is paying her $150 an hour for two hours a day, five days a week. That's $1,500 a week.
The facts are now known by research exactly what she did.
She did say last night that her normal consulting rate is $300 an hour, but she isn't billing SEMPO at her normal rate. She also said that she is working on SEMPO business more than two hours a day, but isn't billing for more than two-hours.
Fact; SEMPO has zero to do with webmamma.com. (we thought) I fail to see the correlation between the two. We thought SEMPO was non-profit, and while non-profits "do" pay their directors, I don't see what that has to do with her SEM business.

[bethabernathy]

Wow! I did get a very hurried call from I think it was Melissa Jordan related to my credit card issue. I told her about the double billing and she said "well you know we're all here at the conference ... this really isn't what I do." I said then can you please have the person who does handle these matters look into this and call me back. I was very direct and can be a bit scary (that's the lawfirm background) and she quickly agreed and hung up. I checked back on my back account and now there is a credit for the 2nd charge. I am sure it was nothing related to the banking, but the customer service was horrible. These are very simple items that should not be escalating, I think they need to get a student in to handle this stuff A.S.A.P.

[Jill Whalen]

My thoughts from the meeting last night:

I don't know what meeting RustyBrick was at, but when I was going in, I didn't see them checking badges, names or membership status. Nor did I see the doors being locked. People were freely coming and and leaving at will.

The meeting was the absolute most boring thing I've ever heard. I was begging for someone to put me out of my misery -- seriously. I took to playing games on my cell phone.

The ad speeches for Overture and Verizon were simply terrible, terrible, terrible. To subject the members to 20 minute ads from the sponsors was simply wrong, imo. I was really pissed about that, and probably would have left but I wanted to hear the Q&A that they promised at the beginning. However, if that's what future meetings are going to be like, I will not be attending any more of them.

They did mention best practices, but specifically said it would be in a "tell the client the risk" kind of thing. Meaning no best practices at all, as far as I'm concerned. (I'm sure that makes many of you happy, but it does nothing for me.)

The members at the meeting seem to be happy with SEMPO as they are, and I don't think the posts at forums concern them much. They did sincerely apologize for the bad communication in the past and said they would strive to do better in the future. This seemed to appease most members in the audience.

It appeared by the comments being made in the audience that many members joined knowing full well that the only benefit was to show to clients that they belong to this "professional org" and that is all they want out of it. I spoke with a few members that are happy with the organization, and they are content with that as their benefit. They find it is very valuable in securing new work. To me, that is just a sad commentary on clients doing their due diligence, but if it works, to secure business, then it works. (Which speaks to one of Doug's concerns.)

I'm debating whether I'll be renewing my membership next year, but if mine were up today, I have to say that I wouldn't at this time.

[NFFC]

>They did mention best practices, but specifically said it would be in a "tell the client the risk" kind of thing. Meaning no best practices at all, as far as I'm concerned. (I'm sure that makes many of you happy, but it does nothing for me.)

Just makes me think of glass houses and stones.

<-------- goes to find ignore feature

[DanThies]

I am a member, I was at the meeting, and I am satisfied with what I heard.

I am satisfied because I've never expected SEMPO to be anything more than what they're trying to be. The mission of the organization, in a nutshell, is to convince the larger marketing and advertising world that "search" is a great channel. That's it. That's all of it.

I hope that they avoid any kind of stance on standards other than "don't break the law." Partly because I have no confidence in anyone's ability to create an industry-wide consensus on standards, but more so because they'll be forced to create standards that all of their members (especially those funding the majority of the enterprise) can live with.

If you create standards that 90% of SEMPO members are willing to live up to, by definition your standards are far below those of the average person working in the business. In fact, you've created standards that are at least a shade below what 90% of the members believe in.

IMHO, SEMPO should stay the heck away from standards, period. SEMPO needs member due$ to fund market research, marketing, and advertising. SEMPO won't make strict standards because they don't want to lose half (or more) of their members. If any board members are reading this, please just stick to the mission, guys.

[seobook]

They did mention best practices, but specifically said it would be in a "tell the client the risk" kind of thing. Meaning no best practices at all, as far as I'm concerned. (I'm sure that makes many of you happy, but it does nothing for me.)

When you think about it the only thing you can do is say there are risks. The search engines set their own guidelines which can change at any moment. Even if you perfectly comply with them today there is nothing to say that they will not change the verbiage or algorithm tomorrow.

Last November I got a ton of phone calls from various webmasters who despite doing "nothing wrong" still lost their rankings.

[bethabernathy]

They have until 8/15/04 to file their 990 Annual Return (& they can get up to a 6 month extension). You can make a request for to obtain a copy of their complete Application for Tax Exemption that should include Form 1024 by contacting:

IRS
P.O. Box 192
Covington, KY 41012

Fax: 513-263-3756

There is no fee for the record production. Another hole, they are not registered with the State of California. They may have filed their articles of incorporation with another State. After that is done, they must qualify as a Corporation to do business in California. That is not on file with the State at this point (916-657-3537) as far as I can see (this is just initial research).

There is alot of money flying around here. These issues are very important to get in order. They could face severe consequences and liability if they step in the wrong direction another time (i.e. the stipend issue). It is important to get this all in order so that they and our industry can be properly protected from a base business operation standpoint.

The stipend issue most likely won't reach the general public. But, since their next step is print advertising, they may become known and things like this could really scar this industry. Alot of people have no respect for this industry. If they are our representatives, I really hope they can get their act together and form a real working trade association. Use the existing money to create a foundation that is not just hype.

[rustybrick]

Jill, they checked my badge when I walked in about 10 minutes before the meeting began. I guess they stopped sometime after they checked my badge. I'll ask others but they checked me.

[Jill Whalen]

Dan, I agree with you, and they've never claimed to be anything other than what they are. And that is fine! I just am realizing more and more that I personally don't have a need for what they are at this time.

But the members that were there, for the most part, were happy with what SEMPO is and what it wants to become, and that's all that matters!

RustyBrick, I was just talking to Greg Jarboe, and he said that yes, they were indeed checking names and badges. I just pretty much snuck through I guess cuz they knew me, so I didn't realize they were checking that closely.

Greg also told me that the reason why there were so many people in the room who were all members is because many organizations had more than one person with them, which made sense.

NFFC, I don't know who you are or why you hate me, but I'm glad you're putting me on ignore so you won't be replying with your nastiness to me any more. Thank you for that.

[DanThies]

Although it was a members-only meeting, press were allowed in. I think Mike Grehan was in there as "press." :D The folks at the door already knew many of the members in attendance personally, so it was kind of relaxed, but they did have a list of member firms and individuals.

I think it's more clear than ever that no matter what is done to improve SEMPO, "something else" is needed to represent SEO, especially the small operators.

[qwerty]

Dan, I'd like to agree with you. Your view of SEMPO seems to be pretty similar to mine, and that's why I choose not to join -- they don't represent me. I just wish SEMPO would stay on message so that people didn't get the impression that they represented the entire SEO/SEM industry.

For example, their site contains an article by Barbara Coll on Making a Living as a Search Marketing Professional (http://www.sempo.org/articles/living.php). Only one paragraph of that article deals with PPC. The rest of it is about general SEO (the sort I do). I'd prefer it if they'd leave resources like that off their site so people wouldn't confuse what they're promoting with what I'm doing.

Maybe they should change their name to Search Engine Advertising Professionals Organization.

[steve sardell]

The members at the meeting seem to be happy with SEMPO as they are, and I don't think the posts at forums concern them much. They did sincerely apologize for the bad communication in the past and said they would strive to do better in the future. This seemed to appease most members in the audience.I understand the members sentiment, and frankly, expected it. The posts on this forum and others would be of no concern and not made if they were not purporting to represent the whole industry. If they want an inner circle so be it, but an inner circle has restricted growth. To improve communication in the future all they will need to do is answer emails once in a awhile. A sledge hammer does not need to graze my head too many times to comprehend SEMpo's membership desires.

Dan, I believe your statement threads the needle, I think it's more clear than ever that no matter what is done to improve SEMPO, "something else" is needed to represent SEO, especially the small operators.

If they are our representatives, I really hope they can get their act together and form a real working trade association.Beth, IMO, this is just wishful thinking. It appears they are nor caring to represent you and me, and it is probably best we go another direction. There are indeed, some members who would like to represent the industry as a whole, but group actions or rather inactions can easily squelch this minority.

[ihelpyou]

Jill wrote:
The meeting was the absolute most boring thing I've ever heard. I was begging for someone to put me out of my misery -- seriously. I took to playing games on my cell phone.
That's sad for people who 'know' there are numerous problems.

Jill wrote:
The ad speeches for Overture and Verizon were simply terrible, terrible, terrible. To subject the members to 20 minute ads from the sponsors was simply wrong, imo.
More sad. SEMPO should come clean about 'who' they represent and stop treating "OUR" industry like dirt.

Jill wrote:
They did mention best practices, but specifically said it would be in a "tell the client the risk" kind of thing.
That will do our industry much more harm than good. Actually, a whole lot more harm.

Jill wrote:
The members at the meeting seem to be happy with SEMPO as they are, and I don't think the posts at forums concern them much.
Seems SES people have their heads in the sand and in another world somewhere. Read this thread again people. oops, no, the other thread with the Mike Grehan concerns.

Jill wrote:
It appeared by the comments being made in the audience that many members joined knowing full well that the only benefit was to show to clients that they belong to this "professional org" and that is all they want out of it.
That's a fact. Phone conversations and email correspondence bears that fact out. No dispute there. That was obvious from the first announcement of this new group.

"Why aren't you a member of SEMPO?"
"But how can you deny me a listing? I'm a SEMPO Circle Member!" "Don't ya know I'm great?"

Pathetic

Dan wrote:
The mission of the organization, in a nutshell, is to convince the larger marketing and advertising world that "search" is a great channel. That's it. That's all of it.
That's fine. They need to tell the world all they care about is Big Business and PPC campaigns. If they would be straight with everyone, all these concerns would not be concerns. Since so far they are claiming to represent an industry that has been my "only" source of income for 7 years, I'm not happy that leadership is full of hot air.

I want Danny Sullivan to write what he "honestly" thought about the meeting and the direction. I would like him to tell our industry the straight scoop as I do believe he is the only one that could possibly get through to these people.

[rcjordan]

Incorporated in Delaware, so it appears, but located in California.
https://sos-res.state.de.us/tin/GINameSearch.jsp

As mentioned before, most small 501's don't have a clue about reporting/compliance issues. ...Nor the nitty-gritty as to how detailed (and in some cases, assinine) the conflict-of-interest requirements can be.

501's are meant to be held to public scrutiny. BTW, my accounting firm sends this site link: http://www.guidestar.org/

[Jill Whalen]

Doug, I think Danny's a little bit busy right now, but I'm sure he'll post here when he can!

[ihelpyou]

Oh, I know.

He's the only one that can change the mission statement of SEMPO to be what it actually is.

If something is not done, I'll bet some lawyers would be willing to do something since business has been lost to SEMPO Circle members, and only because they are members and misrepresenting themselves.

[Jill Whalen]

Can't agree with you there, Doug. If people (potential clients) want to put stock in a SEMPO logo as meaning anything more than it means, then that's too bad for them. They get what they deserve, imo.

[bethabernathy]

Incorporated in Delaware, so it appears, but located in California.
https://sos-res.state.de.us/tin/GINameSearch.jsp

As mentioned before, most small 501's don't have a clue about reporting/compliance issues. ...Nor the nitty-gritty as to how detailed (and in some cases, assinine) the conflict-of-interest requirements can be.

501's are meant to be held to public scrutiny. BTW, my accounting firm sends this site link: http://www.guidestar.org/

Thanks for the link, apparently Sempo is operating as a "Religious Non-Profit". Which when read futher reads "
R - Religious Non-profit - This description type refers to a corporation that sets forth in it's certificate of incorporation or subsequent documents that it is a non-profit corporation. The "Religious" literal does not infer that, in every case, the corporation is for Religious purposes only. The intent is to define the corporation as Non-Profit, charitable corporation which maybe formed for Religious purposes."

Very weird, but i'll have to read more. They haven't applied to Qualify to Operate in California as an out of State corporation.

[DianeV]

SEMPO is a non-profit, tax-exempt organization; Federal Tax ID #14-1891138. The organization is a 501(c)(6) chartered in the state of California.

http://www.sempo.org/faq.php#legal

[ihelpyou]

Can't agree with you there, Doug. If people (potential clients) want to put stock in a SEMPO logo as meaning anything more than it means, then that's too bad for them. They get what they deserve, imo.
If it was just a logo on Circle Member Sites, I would not have a problem. It's when "content" is written that is VERY misleading that I have a problem with, and others have already looked at it as a problem as well.

“White Hat” Search Engine Optimization Methods
We're proud Circle members of SEMPO, so we're not about to ruin our good reputation by using cloaking, keyword spamming and stuffing, or other non-standard methods of affecting search engine placement. We keep current on what is considered “safe”, as well as “aggressive” search engine optimization techniques.

If you wish to try more aggressive techniques, and are apprised of the risks of potential blacklisting, we can still help you out by recommending one of our partner companies who specialize in pushing SEO to the edge. But, we ask that you try the legitimate way first -— most companies can achieve considerable improvement in ranking just by making strategic changes to their Website design.
That "IS" misrepresenting what SEMPO is.

<edited>Do not want to get into the spammer issue.</edited>

[bethabernathy]

SEMPO is a non-profit, tax-exempt organization; Federal Tax ID #14-1891138. The organization is a 501(c)(6) chartered in the state of California. http://www.sempo.org/faq.php#legal

Well whatever chartered means, the State of California has no record of them as far I am can see so far. I am still interested in what charity they are offering? And ... what religion are we?

[DanThies]

They haven't applied to Qualify to Operate in California as an out of State corporation.
You state this as a fact, how do you know this?

A "religious non profit" does not mean religion is involved.

[bethabernathy]

I contacted both the County of Santa Clara (408-299-5670) and the State of California (916-657-3537). But, I am going to follow-up further. Their status in Delaware is also listed as "THIS IS NOT A STATEMENT OF GOOD STANDING". This can be obtained "You can retrieve Status for a fee of $10.00".

[orion]

I believe SEMPO must stop once for all rumors about its incorporation and legal status now before is too late. For those interested, these links may help to dissect incorporation and legal issues in connection with the State of California:

1. This spits it all. It covers 3 types of incorporations and defines what is/is not a nonprofit RELIGIOUS corporation. The link is about California nonprofit, nonstock corporations interested in doing business in the state and organized for religious, charitable, social, educational, recreational or similar purposes.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/corp/corp_artsnpinf.htm

2. To determine (search) if an entity is currently registered with the Secretary of State (California, results updated weekly) Note: A search for SEMPO, Inc. returns two records unrelated to the search engine marketing entity in question.
http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/list.html

3. For corporate records see
http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/corp/corp_irc.htm

My take on all this is that their members are sincere and well intentioned and I give them credit for that. They voted and I respect that vote. Still, is hard for me to be so kind about their leaders, especially with those co-promoting their two hats here and there. The more we research the two hats issues, the more we find. The industry doesn't need this kind of leadership.

To be fair, we don't need hidden agendas either, from supporters or detractors of SEMPO. I'm not mad at anyone inside or outside the little experiment. I'm mad at the things we keep finding about the exp. I'm still trying to be fair with the good members and volunteers that have put so much hard work in this project. But each time we keep finding things not so good.

I'm going to speak my heart again. Honestly, those that put together this organization should have researched carefully how to put in place this little experiment called SEMPO. What they are saying are committed to do now, in terms of programmatic goals and milestone and "want to do", "nice to do", and "must do" driven by 80/20-Paretto Rule, are things they were suppose to planning a year before right from the get-go.

They should have researched and searched well the topic in sites like the managementhelp.org site (http://www.managementhelp.org/org_thry/np_thry/np_intro.htm) and similar sites. After all, this little experiment is connected with "searches". Ironies of life.

It appears to me they rushed to put in place this little experiment with the right members but unfortunately with the wrong leadership and human resources and with no clear goals or objectives in mind. Claiming now that they were merely sloppy or have lack of knowledge on how to run a non profit is simply not an excuse.

Anything bad that comes from all this is well deserved. And to be fair with them, anything good that comes from all this is well deserved and should be recognized, too. You can disagree with me or not, but I sincerely believe that looking for a particular individual to save the act may be quite late. I would not be surprise if a new organization emerges in 1 or 2 years from Today (or before).

Orion

[bethabernathy]

I am not sure how to quote an entire post, but I agree entirely with Orion's last post. Sorry to be the big Sister, which I have been all my life, but, read through my posts and you will see that I am simply pointing out what needs to be fixed. And .. these are not just things that you can say maybe next month we will deal with. I have provided phone numbers, etc. for you to contact to take care of on an expedited basis. In the future, calendar renewals and deadlines. These are critical binding basic things that need attention.

It is very important that SEMPO is in Good status in California right now and Going Forward. Put it on your calendar. It isn't that hard.

By the way, they are set in Delaware. I checked on that. Which is very good news.

[ihelpyou]

I do think sempo should at least consider my two posts in that other thread. If you had 'one' level of membership with 'no' front page listings, the need for best practice guidelines would not be there.

As it is now, no way could you ever think about having any guidelines for membership. Guidelines would only hurt the SEM industry even more than the setup sempo has right now. You have Circle Members touting their status as Circle members as some type of Gawd and Expert. They ain't that and some of those firms will never be that.

My ideas, if taken at face value, give you an org that ALL websites on the internet should join. The RFP's that are received right now could also be submitted by that lawyer who is looking for a SEM and is also a member of sempo. My vision about this is clear in my head.

BTW, there seems to be a ground-swell of support for another organization to development with the lessons learned from SEMPO. You can find the discussion here:
http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13190&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I've not made any posts over there as the thread was pointed out to me. If SEMPO does not drastically change it's structure, you can be assured another org of the same dimensions will emerge. You all will be on the outside looking in if this org does happen. There are hundreds more small SEM firms than there are large SEM firms. Our individual voices might be small to you, but put together thousands of individual "small" voices, and you have an organization which would be a strong competitor to SEMPO.

[seobook]

I do think sempo should at least consider my two posts in that other thread. If you had 'one' level of membership with 'no' front page listings, the need for best practice guidelines would not be there.
yes but then circle members would just be members :(

As it is now, no way could you ever think about having any guidelines for membership. Guidelines would only hurt the SEM industry even more than the setup sempo has right now.
totally agree.

You have Circle Members touting their status as Circle members as some type of Gawd and Expert. They ain't that and some of those firms will never be that.
totally agree again. circle member = I have $5,000 to throw into marketing (or I got in free because I got in early). nothing more, nothing less. in the past I may have even been spammed by a circle member (or someone posing to be a certain company now in the circle) who asked me to add a their seo site to my seo forums page via automated spam bot. I think my reply to that email was the rudest email I have ever sent anyone.

BTW, there seems to be a ground-swell of support for another organization to development with the lessons learned from SEMPO. You can find the discussion here:
http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13190&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I am prettymuch a blind supporter of Peter D and some of those guys there. Just about all their ideas look good, especially when compared to something like SEMPO.

I've not made any posts over there as the thread was pointed out to me. If SEMPO does not drastically change it's structure, you can be assured another org of the same dimensions will emerge.
go Peter D...

You all will be on the outside looking in if this org does happen. There are hundreds more small SEM firms than there are large SEM firms. Our individual voices might be small to you, but put together thousands of individual "small" voices, and you have an organization which would be a strong competitor to SEMPO.
yes but for the brief while when some people bought off on SEMPO it sure was good marketing for circle members.

[ihelpyou]

es but then circle members would just be members
Yes exactly. That way the leadership would not be spending their time thinking up more ways to promote any Circle member (old boys club). A level field with zero member promotion is the only way to have an organization with a mission to get the word out about SEM. Nothing else will suffice. Any sponsorships or 5000 grand investments could be turned into a ''donation" after a yearly fee is taken out.

Putting it this way, SEMPO either drastically re-structures, or another organization will develop to do things right.

[seobook]

Yes exactly. That way the leadership would not be spending their time thinking up more ways to promote any Circle member (old boys club). A level field with zero member promotion is the only way to have an organization with a mission to get the word out about SEM. Nothing else will suffice. Any sponsorships or 5000 grand investments could be turned into a ''donation" after a yearly fee is taken out.

Putting it this way, SEMPO either drastically re-structures, or another organization will develop to do things right.

I think the mission statement of SEMPO has already been made by their (perhaps lack of) reaction to the questions that were brought up.

Its fine if its just a good old boys club. They would probably get a bunch more respect for their peers if they just came out and said it though.

[Matt B]

I think the mission statement of SEMPO has already been made by their (perhaps lack of) reaction to the questions that were brought up.

That is a very good point. One that has been discussed for months prior to any of this coming out. From my perspective, I was disappointed about the attitude that members should not expect any benefit from joining SEMPO, other than the warm glow of association. Sadly, the joke around SES has been "ask not what SEMPO can do for you, as what you can do for SEMPO!"

I'm very sorry to see this happen. I think the need for any organization to survive is respect and a common goal. SEMPO seems to have lost both, at least among those who they need, which are the active and (very) vocal SEO's with the ability to communicate to far more members than they, via forums, chats and lists. Those are the people they need to create grassroots support and increase membership. The only reason I could see NOT to reach these people, is if the goal is to get more corporate membership, not SEO's.

Kudos to you Doug, for some very insightful and well-thought out posts.

edited for spelling and lack of general grammatical principles

[bethabernathy]

I thought it was interesting that at the meeting one man stood up and said he was very happy being a Sempo Circle member as it lead to something like $10 to $20K in business.

In addition, I contacted the State of Delaware and they did file their Annual Report on 3/1/04. So, it should be made available to the anyone who would like a copy.

[seobook]

I thought it was interesting that at the meeting one man stood up and said he was very happy being a Sempo Circle member as it lead to something like $10 to $20K in business.

of course it works well for some Circle members. that seems to be the lure of the concept.

looking at it on a grand scale there are a bunch of huge companies who are not doing seo properly. you only need to get one of them to hire you to pay for $5 K in advertising.

[ihelpyou]

LOL I'd love to know which firm that 'man' represented.

Ya see? Ya got lots of bucks to invest, you too can be a Circle member.

Tell me again exactly what the mission of SEMPO is?

Ain't it the truth? I know of some of those "elite" members who jumped online one year ago or less and now claim expert status. Believe me, having lots of money for your start-up business does not equate to being an expert at anything at all. That's the biggest reason most of us see the "current" organization as quite a joke.

Sorry, but those are the facts.

These people need to start listening to those of us that have been there awhile, and get off their high-horse.

Jill said the members did not really have any concern for forum posts. Wake up people. The loudest voices, and in general, the core majority of this industry, (and sharpest) can be found posting at about 10 different SEO forums on the internet. You either listen to some real great advice in here and elsewhere, or you certainly will not succeed. I don't care how big or how much money you have.

[bethabernathy]

I sat next to a man at the conference who said, he is sure this will all die down and be forgotten and they will succeed.

Short of that I have mailed my request to the IRS and the State of Delaware to obtain complete documentation related to their operations. So, I will be following up related to that.

[ihelpyou]

More thoughts to think about:

Let's say you are a potential client looking for SEM services of 'some' type.

Put yourself on the outside looking in for a minute.

Would you rather find a "small' OR a "large" firm where the actual owner/founder of that firm started as a 'true' SEO, or would you like that firm to have started as a offline advertising agency, a direct marketing agency, a PPC agency, or 'any' other type of agency?

Think about that a moment. I do think any website owner in the world would want the firm to know the SEO sides of things inside and out. Those firms who don't, and are now pushing SEM services, are either outsourcing the actual SEO services, or hiring someone 'inhouse' to cover it.

We all know it's much tougher to acquire SEO skills and knowledge. Heck, I still learn daily and will never stop learning. It's true, you learn daily about PPC, but anyone with skills of placing ads can learn to do PPC fairly well and quickly. That is not the case with SEO.

Further: If you are an agency that all the sudden decides to offer SEO services as well as all other SEM services, and you outsource those services, how do you have one clue as to what kind of SEO the firm is that you are outsourcing to? If you don't know the basics about SEO, let alone all other techniques, how good could your firm be, or how credible could it be?

The answer to the first question is without a doubt:

The firm large or small, with the original background in SEO, is going to be the choice of any website owner who knows that choice.

That in essence, is why SEMPO in it's current form will 'not' succeed.

I sat next to a man at the conference who said, he is sure this will all die down and be forgotten and they will succeed.
He is very mistaken.

[bethabernathy]

I am running a newsletter to about 1750 people in the Bay Area / Silicon Valley related to this (it will be objective) and am going to track the interest via click throughs and reads. If anyone would like to help me prepare it that would be great. Again, it will be very objective and the recipients are primarily located in California.

[orion]

Ms. Barbara Coll's Two Hats, Revisited:


1. http://www.corporemglobal.com/sempo.html
Another finding! This is a Corporem Global article signed by Ms Coll and describing SEMPO mission. Ms Coll starts writing

"Corporem Global joined SEMPO (www.sempo.org) as a Circle member in June 2004, one of only three UK companies to do so."

Then she talks about SEMPO. Finally she signs

"Barbara Coll
CEO, WebMama.com Inc"

The piece is about SEMPO mission, so she has no business promoting her Webmama's hat by signing in this way. Why Corporem Global, a SEMPO Circle member, promotes her two hats?

2. http://www.sempo.org/case-studies/onfoot.php
This is a case study presented in the SEMPO's Resources >> Case Studies page and signed by Lisa Ashe from WebMama.com (hot link pointing to WebMama The article ends with an "About WebMama" footer describing (once again, WebMama business enterprise). There is no reason for injecting this in a SEMPO page about case studies. How often Webmama is quoted in the SEMPO site? Can we see a parttern?

3. http://www.netapplications.com/sempo/
Why SEMPO allows a business partner of Ms Coll let both get away with commercial endorsements? Isn't commercial endorsements in which the president of a nonprofit co-brands his/her business hat and nonprofit hat a possible violation of the Laws of the State of California or Delaware regarding nonprofit organizations? Even if is not illegal, it doesn't look ethical.

The more we dig, the more we find... This is very sad.

Orion

[bethabernathy]

Well since there is so much dual advertising going it is good that her website is back up.

[Marcia]

The fact is that there are needs that exist that are not being met, and if SEMPO doesn't meet those needs that are shared by many independent webmasters and SEM/SEO professionals then some other entity will pick up the slack to meet those needs. That's how a free economy works.

If SEMPO is meeting the needs of those who support it, I say let them be - it's their choice, for better or worse. There have been many voices expressing what people are needing and thinking and the ball is now in their court to respond. If they don't, there are others who will heed the voices and come up with something that will meet the unmet needs.

Beyond that, now that it's all out in the open and they've been figuratively caught with their pants down, I can't see any sense in continuing to beat up on their butts and wave their dirty underwear around out in public.

[bethabernathy]

In March they looked at the budget and saw they can afford an executive director. She said that in March they decided to hire an interim executive director. The board offered to pay Barbara for 2 hours per day ($300/hour) because she was really spending 5 hours per day. They are going to bring someone new in but she is just temporary

Interesting it was after they filed their Annual Report with the State of Delaware, that is supposed to disclose extensive financials, that they make this decision. Although, it may be that they came to this conclusion as they had analyzed their financials.

[Marcia]

Who knows what who thought except those who thought it and made the decisions? Idle speculation is nothing more than an exercise in futility - far too much like old women twittering and gossiping over their back fences while hanging out their wash.

There are a number of "forum stereotypes" and I long ago figured out that I'm not among those who fancy themselves to be Carnac the Mind Reader. It' usually the search engines' motivations they expound on - now it seems there's a new hot topic for the Carnac's of the forum circuit. The spoken and written statements and policies that have been made speak for themselves. There's really no need to invent anything further that's irrelevant to the core issues - or to pick on details that without question will be handled by the very capable business people at the helm. They've got a lot more at stake in this than we wash-women do.

Meantime, "the people" have spoken and have been heard and it's up to those who think and decide whether they'll listen to "the people" or ignore them.

[Mel]

Yes Marcia the spoken and written statements stand, but SEMPO have chosen to not make any spoken or written statements about the things discussed here, and thus we can only speculate as to thier intentions regarding them.

This is a group which is perceived to speak for the community, and thus it is IMO correct to be concerned about their actions.

If they would only make it clear that this is actually the the Old SEO Boys Benevolant Association, instead of a concerned industry wide grouping, I suspect that this thread would dry up rather quickly.

[steve sardell]

There's really no need to invent anything further that's irrelevant to the core issues - or to pick on details that without question will be handled by the very capable business people at the helm. The majority of points made throughout this thread have demonstrated a genuine concern by a cross section of the SEO/SEM industry, and in no way are these points invented. Facts have been presented and issues have been raised.These facts and issues have diminished the word capable.
Meantime, "the people" have spoken and have been heard and it's up to those who think and decide whether they'll listen to "the people" or ignore them. I agree with the above save for two words.
If they would only make it clear that this is actually the the Old SEO Boys Benevolant Association, instead of a concerned industry wide grouping, I suspect that this thread would dry up rather quickly.Unfortunately Mel we have been raising the same concerns for sometime now, and I fully agree it may be time for SEMpo to state they do not represent the industry. Apparently, the general membership is satisfied with the status quo, now all that is left to do is for them to truthfully state who they do serve, and it is not the industry.

[bethabernathy]

it may be time for SEMpo to state they do not represent the industry. Apparently, the general membership is satisfied with the status quo, now all that is left to do is for them to truthfully state who they do serve, and it is not the industry.

That would be ideal!! As I cannot realistically use my membership for any real biz purpose at this point in time. But they have said it is up for the members to make it work. We'll they have gotten someone on board who will find some way to, make at, a minimum something work.

[Marcia]

Trust me, I know all about the "Good Ole Boys Club" - believe me I do. But do they really see themselves as being that? If not, then what is there to fess up to?

There are different perspectives depending on the vantage point, and I'm certain the powers that be feel they are looking after the benefit of the industry - qualified by it being the industry from their particular perspective.

There are all kinds of cries about representing and looking after the little guy - but how? Exactly what would comprise looking after the little guy - like Fred_SEO working from his back bedroom in the Midwest in his socks and working solo for $50-$100 per hour?

I'm hearing all kinds of accusations and demands and seeiing some noble attempts at grand-standing, but I'm seeing very few concrete details and specifics. You go first and then I'll tell who I believe has really been serving Fred_SEO and those in the SEO community like him, and what I believe Fred and those like him (us) need.

You first. :)

[projectphp]

You go first
http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showpost.php?p=7589&postcount=260 - is a pretty good list of stuff.
http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7143&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105 is also excellent, and quite specific.

I'll tell who I believe...
Your turn :)

[ihelpyou]

I fail to see or understand what you are going on about Marcia. You could not have more proof of bad behavior in this thread if the leaders actually tried to be bad. This thread shows more proof of guilt than some things on TV right now.

There have been numerous and detailed suggestions in here and throughout the internet. You should get out sometime.

I realize some out there are buddy-buddy with the leadership, but the facts are the facts.

If sempo doesn't make numerous changes, they are done. I'm willing to see if they do, but from what the meeting produced, I highly doubt it.

[andrewgoodman]

There are all kinds of cries about representing and looking after the little guy - but how? Exactly what would comprise looking after the little guy - like Fred_SEO working from his back bedroom in the Midwest in his socks and working solo for $50-$100 per hour?


As far as I could tell, that's precisely what some of the Circle members were before they borrowed $5,000 from the house to join SEMPO... and still are. The benefit of SEMPO to some was obvious: join and gain instant legitimacy. For those who already were legitimate in their own right, though, this wasn't what we wanted to see. We wanted to see our entire industry gain legitimacy. Did that happen? Or just the opposite?

So as for what concretely ought to be "done," among other things I would suggest eliminating these absurd Circle memberships and claims of referrals being funneled to them. A *professional* organization can raise a middling amount of money ($149/yr. from a wider base), *if* it first gains the trust of the membership. That takes a plan, and time. That helps "Fred SEO" and larger SEM's alike without making us all look silly with infighting and confusion.

But as for discussions of what the membership levels mean, and why we have them... to have them now is a year too late. The fact is, anyone who raised such issues in the past simply wasn't listened to.

SEMPO would have fared better had it adopted the philosophy of "Mama" of the legendary "Mama's cafe (http://www.greektravel.com/testimonials/greektravel5.htm)" on the island of Santorini:

Love all
Serve all

(Except for spammers.)

[bethabernathy]

Hi - It was said at the meeting that they had openings for 3 new board Members. There were applications or forms to complete. "Three board members will be elected by members and we will be emailed next week. They want people to step up and elect themselves."

I am assuming that I should receive an email next week related to my vote related to the election. Does anyone know if this is correct? This will be the 1st test related to better communication and I am looking forward to complete information.

[ihelpyou]

I could not find if this article was posted yet, so here it is. Barb and Dana lay out what they 'believe' are fixes to sempo:

http://www.clickz.com/news/article.php/3390761

hmm. Do they attend the same planet?

[bethabernathy]

When is Sempo's next meeting? Search Engine Strategies - Stockholm
October 27 - 28, 2004 Stockhold, Sweden ? Whenever it is I would like to know and also it would be helpful if they could set up a telephone conference call # to dial in to listen and perhaps participate. If they can't do this, perhaps a web seminar.

Also, I still don't see the Executive Director position listed on their job board.

[pleeker]

Also, I still don't see the Executive Director position listed on their job board.

Well, jeez ... they're all still in San Jose, y'know? Give 'em time. Didn't they just form the search committee Monday night? Hopefully (for their sake) they'll take an appropriate amount of time to write up an excellent job description with appropriate qualifications, job duties, etc., so that they can be sure to find the most qualified and 'correct' person for the job.

[bethabernathy]

sounds fair, although I work at the speed of light. :D

[Marcia]

There's been a lot of input on how people think it should be set up, but how it's set up has little to do with what it should do. I still haven't seen specifics about what the actual, practical needs of the independent web professional are - in other words what substantial programs and support services could be provided for them by being part of an industry organization that they can't accomplish on their own.

ihelpyou
I realize some out there are buddy-buddy with the leadership
Meaning?

[bethabernathy]

Although they have said: it is not about what SEmpo can do for you, it is about what you can do for SEmpo. Just a reminder. :)

[seobook]

I realize some out there are buddy-buddy with the leadership
Meaning?
Likely some would be willing to downplay recent events as non events. If I am a crazy whiner then perhaps everything is ok with SEMPO and I am the person who is at fault.

The web is full of cross promotion, especially amongst marketers. Our words and opinions are sometimes dictated by friendships and business partners whether or not we realize or admit it.

[bethabernathy]

That's why I just changed my tag line.

[rustybrick]

I had the opportunity to speak with Mike Grehan (the 'algorithm junky') and one of the things we talked about was SEMPO (duh).

He was not happy with the presentation nor with the way the meeting was handled. He did not feel he received the answers to his questions (all of his questions). So he is not yet satisfied.

He is personal and professional friends with most of people involved with SEMPO but he said "it had to be done."

In my opinion, Mike's overall goal with his article was to help the industry. Fortunately, he has the reach and the name to make a difference. One thing he did was get people thinking. Now, its up to SEMPO to take the next step.

I don't think SEMPO should rush into anything. I think they should make calculated and careful steps in the upcoming months. I know some of you want changes now, but quick is not always best.

My 2 cents.

[seobook]

That's why I just changed my tag line.

I do not recommend using search engine positions in your tag unless you are absolutely sure it is a term you dominate and that the positions will not change.

sites 2 & 3 are two different sites right now on my Google search for "reputable search engine optimization."

I could use the term "seo book" in my tag because it is my domain name and I have thousands and thousands of links pointing at me with those words in them. There is nobody else targeting that phrase anywhere near as much as I am.

Starbucks could likely do the same thing with "coffee" but in my opinion its not a good thing to do unless you know you blow the competition out of the water for that term.

also it is better to do with shorter terms than longer ones. something like 'Just search Google for "SEO"' would be a more impressive tag line.

[NFFC]

>Our words and opinions are sometimes dictated by friendships and business partners whether or not we realize or admit it.

Admit it?

Embrace it, become one with it, learn to love it. Support those who support you, help each other, nothing wrong with that.

As long as everybody is honest about it.

What we have here with the SEMPOGATE situation, impho, is a group [it ain't about one person the whole board is culpable] that seem to be economical with the actuality.

Does that make them bad people? Maybe, maybe not. What it does make them is people not fit to serve on the board of a non-profit org.

[seobook]

Now, its up to SEMPO to take the next step.

I don't think SEMPO should rush into anything. I think they should make calculated and careful steps in the upcoming months. I know some of you want changes now, but quick is not always best.

Nobody is asking them to rush into anything. Heck, I can create them a blog in 20 minutes, but the trick is to occasionally use it. Throwing a blog on the site is not a huge commitment. Its a decision "do I want to create feedback loops and have the backing of my industy" or "would I rather ignore them and have no support."

Pretty simple stuff.

Rob Frankel has a blog. He has posted 4 times in about a half year, but he still has one. http://robfrankel.blogspot.com/ (of course he also has other feedback loops too but the key is to have some. live at the meeting is not a legitimate feedback loop.)

[bethabernathy]

Well the search term has done absolutely nothing for me. I pulled it off of a wordtracker report. Nothing in my stats to indicate it does anything. But .. if you don't like it, i'll take it off. No problem.

[Marcia]

>>Our words and opinions are sometimes dictated by friendships and business partners whether or not we realize or admit it.

I haven't seen that at all in this discussion; rather I've seen balanced and logical reasoning with the good of the industry in mind. Hence the need for clarification of Doug's cryptic remark; and as someone who has been acquainted with him for over 4 years I can personally verify that he's well capable of speaking for himself. So it still stands:

>>>Meaning?<<<

rustybrick
He is personal and professional friends with most of people involved with SEMPO but he said "it had to be done."

In my opinion, Mike's overall goal with his article was to help the industry. Fortunately, he has the reach and the name to make a difference. One thing he did was get people thinking. Now, its up to SEMPO to take the next step.
I believe that 100%.

rustybrick
I don't think SEMPO should rush into anything. I think they should make calculated and careful steps in the upcoming months. I know some of you want changes now, but quick is not always best.
That's the sensible and rational way, giving time to study valuable input they've received and gather more on how to best meet the needs of all members and serve the entire industry.

[seobook]

Well the search term has done absolutely nothing for me. I pulled it off of a wordtracker report. Nothing in my stats to indicate it does anything. But .. if you don't like it, i'll take it off. No problem.

I am not saying whether or not I like it. And your marketing should not be based on my opinion. I am just saying that the particular technique you were using appears effective if you flat out own a term. Much less effective if you are one of many. Also shifts in rankings can confuse people and you may be marketing some of your competitors for free with your tagline.

[rustybrick]

SEMPO has a blog, they put one up a week or so before the meeting. They are currently populating it with content. I think they want to announce it soon.

It was mentioned at the meeting, not sure if I included that in my coverage.

[Marcia]

NFFC:
As long as everybody is honest about it.
I think that's what everyone isl looking for - honesty and candor.

<sidebar>
Shouldn't Beth's tagline be a separate topic with its own thread and title?
</sidebar>

[seobook]

Our words and opinions are sometimes dictated by friendships and business partners whether or not we realize or admit it.

I haven't seen that at all in this discussion; rather I've seen balanced and logical reasoning with the good of the industry in mind.

I was not talking about this thread in particular, but more about all threads in general.

Hence the need for clarification of Doug's cryptic remark; and as someone who has been acquainted with him for over 4 years I can personally verify that he's well capable of speaking for himself. So it still stands:

I did not think what Doug said was particulary cryptic or confusing. I was just trying to clarify what I though I saw.

I also was not trying to speak for Doug in particular and am sure (based on what I know of him) that he likely will soon comment on your comment :)

[NFFC]

>SEMPO has a blog, they put one up a week or so before the meeting.

Sure they did.

>They are currently populating it with content.

I don't think they quite grasp the blog concept, what do you think?

[seobook]

>SEMPO has a blog, they put one up a week or so before the meeting.

Sure they did.

>They are currently populating it with content.

I don't think they quite grasp the blog concept, what do you think?

the whole idea of blog is spontanious. populating a blog with content means that they may be using blog software to create it, but its not really a blog.

a single post starting off wiith "oops, we should have made this a long time ago..."

would go really far for SEMpo right now, but if they want to take the time to populate it then perhaps they could read a book or two about blogging while they are populating their blog.

The Weblog Handbook would perhaps be a good start.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/073820756X/002-5373204-4051207?v=glance

[Brad]

>They are currently populating it with content.

I don't think they quite grasp the blog concept, what do you think?

I have the feeling you are right.

I get the feeling they like everything carefully controlled and orchestrated.
:D

[rustybrick]

NFFC, you made me laugh. Good laugh.

Anyway, I recently posted on the blog session at SES San Jose. A blog is turning into a "personal content management system."

I didn't really announce my blog until I have several posts in there.

[seobook]

I didn't really announce my blog until I have several posts in there.

but you did not have a bunch of SEroundtable critics prior to creating your blog. and your blog is not representing an organization. totally different concepts.

the whole point of a blog is that not everything is perfect. blog is more about honest than perfect.

even while being somewhat orchestrated the official Google weblog will likely have a more personal tone than what SEMpo puts out.
http://www.google.com/googleblog/

[rustybrick]

seobook, could be. you might be right. I actually want to see them succeed, maybe that is why I am so 'forgiving'.

[bethabernathy]

Well Seobook, we should talk about this in another thread. Thank you for the information. I appreciate it. I can use all the help I can get. :)

[Marcia]

rustybrick
I actually want to see them succeed, maybe that is why I am so 'forgiving'.
Beyond forgiving, while in this industry there are irreconcilable differences (promoting adware for one) so that certain issues have to be excluded, there is a genuine demand and need for an industry organization, or there wouldn't have been the kind of widespread interest that's been generated.

Without any doubt, the interests of some at the exclusion of the majority has been in evidence. There hasn't been one shred of evidence to the contrary. But that doesn't lessen the fact that there's a need and a demand. It isn't hard at all to find out what the concerns of the rank and file are - there are forums FULL of pertinent discussions going back several years that very plainly and clearly show what the concerns and needs are for all to see.

That is the kind of research that needs (and needed) to be done if it's not to be (or continue to be) an exclusionary "good ole' boys club" catering to one segment alone. Anyone who had listened to concerns and ideas expressed over a year ago and been interested enough could have easily found out. Some likely already knew - but none of the needs of the rank and file was ever addressed - and still haven't been, even though they're out in the open for all to see. If they care (or cared). That anyone did isn't evidenced in any way.

An independent professional with proven ethics and experience in administration of a non-profit, or even a trade association without that status, who doesn't belong to any of the special interest groups and can be trusted not to favor one sector over another sounds about right if there's to be trust and credibility regained.

It matters little *how* it's organized and run unless there's a legitimate purpose and justification for its existence in the first place. Else it's putting the cart before the horse without even knowing what road it needs to go down.

There are a number of industry organizations for individual practitioners. Here's just one example of one that's been running successfully and respectably for several years and is highly esteemed among the community within the industry. Some of what's on the site pertains to *all* individual proprietors regardless of industry.

Graphic Artists Guild (http://www.gag.org/)

[ihelpyou]

Marcia; I get the feeling you took that sentence the wrong way. SEMPO was the child of JM, DS, and BC from what I understand. It so happens that all board members also attend all conferences as well..most anyway. The facts are that all are good friends. There is "nothing" wrong with friends getting together to create new org. That ain't the problem. The problem is that since April of 2003 many people and forums have been pointing out concerns and problems and major flaws with the actual concept. All were ignored except for when they responded with a disclaimer. That was good.

All else was ignored. Now with research, the rest of the concerns came to be also. Members promoted members using SEMPO to do so, blah, blah, blah, blah. If that was the mission of this org, then they should have answered all the concerns about that issue along time ago. They did not. This 3 tier system of membership is the major flaw from day one, and they were told about it at my place in April of 2003. It was ignored. Now we know just how much a problem SEMPO has had since then trying to justify more benefits to those who coughed up 5 grand. It's been a never ending problem for them. So much so that the whole focus of what Danny 'thought' the org to be, lost it's focus and real mission and will not be able to get it back under this 3 tier system. The org was never suppose to be about it's members, but about how to get the word out about SEM.

[ihelpyou]

You know, I go brain dead sometimes in forums and may ask a question that I knew already. But I tell ya, I've read questions a few times from people who portray leadership roles in this industry that has something to be desired.

http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7139

You all actually pay this person? A person with not a blot of experience with a non-profit and everything else we all now know?

Let me say this; The idea of a non-profit basing the salary of a director of that non-profit on whatever that director makes per hour in their SEM business is ludicrous, and actually, down-right fraudulent. This was stated in this thread earlier.

I am demanding SEMPO quits paying this director salary until they find a REAL Director of this non-profit organization.

I'm not joking sempo, so you better not ignore this post. Okay?

I'm a little tee'd off right now about this whole mess. SEMPO has stated they are representing "OUR" sem industry. They are NOT representing my business any way, shape, or form, and they "never" have represented my business, not ever. Don't even think about posting that my business is not a member of sempo so I don't have any say. That's crap. I do have a say, and I think I can safely say I speak for many out there who actually feel cheated by the audacity and elitism this org has displayed for well over one year.

My 2 cents... well, maybe 5.

[steve sardell]

I thought I was done with this thread and my silly nitpicking, but apparently there are a couple of things still festering, and want to get them out of my mind.


I don't think SEMPO should rush into anything. I think they should make calculated and careful steps in the upcoming months. I know some of you want changes now, but quick is not always best.

That's the sensible and rational way, giving time to study valuable input they've received and gather more on how to best meet the needs of all members and serve the entire industry.
I do agree for some things the methodical approach is best, however, there are some items that need immediate attention. How much time is needed? Greg J realized quickly the *two hats* was not in the best interest and dilligently corrected the press releases. I applaud him for his speedy action. He is a professional and nothing less would have been expected. But, a major point of consternation remains. I do not understand why the links on the bottom of this page (http://www.sempo.org/about-sempo.php) remain. This is a twenty second correction. The only logical answer is the president believes there is nothing wrong with this style of self promotion. Is it any wonder one link leads to a business web site using the same colour scheme as the SEMpo site?

The longer items like the above linger the rustier the SEMpo image becomes, and corrosion begins.

Anyone who had listened to concerns and ideas expressed over a year ago and been interested enough could have easily found out. Some likely already knew - but none of the needs of the rank and file was ever addressed - and still haven't been, even though they're out in the open for all to see. If they care (or cared). That anyone did isn't evidenced in any way.

Unfortunately true, the concerns have been there since March 2003. But rank concerns do appear to have little bearing. It has taken *one like Mike* ( maybe I should coin that phrase) with a high profile to step forward and get the many peons in the industry riled. It was excellent timing on his part.

Like Barry, I would like to see this org succeed, but not in its present format. There is my sibilance for the day.

[bethabernathy]

I just received my 1st Sempo Newsletter. It seemed very organized. This was my main interest:

"Stated objectives for 2004 include:

- Membership nomination and election of three new board seats to be completed by the end of the year (additional details will be sent to all members shortly)

- Search for an Executive Director to be started this month with the goal of having a director in place by December, 2004. Members will be offered an opportunity to provide feedback on experience and skill-set required for this position, as well as recommendations for potential candidates. Please send questions or suggestions to execcommittee@sempo.org"

[ihelpyou]

If they think making a couple of changes to a board and a new director is going to change much at all, they'd be mistaken. The concept is flawed and will continue to be flawed. I disagree about the notion that changes should not be made now. They should be.

An actual plan with multiple changes should be done. No plan was ever wrote when the org was formed, so now would be a good time to have a plan. One level of membership with a low entrance fee would be a good first start. NO promotion of members in any way would be second. Reverse them if you wish.

No "change of face" is going to affect the flawed concept at all as it stands.

[bethabernathy]

I was unclear at the meeting what they meant by this: "in March they decided to hire an interim executive director. The board offered to pay Barbara for 2 hours per day ($300/hour) because she was really spending 5 hours per day. They are going to bring someone new in but she is just temporary."

What is this temporary position. In a way it sounds like an interim temporary Executive Director position. Ooops. This must be what B. Coll is doing.

Also, the newsletter did not mention anything about making meetings available via conference call etc.

I do agree the memberships should be less expensive and the Circle memberships should be perhaps only for those who have made notable charitable contributions and perhaps this group should be renamed to indicate that this is only a monitary contribution group, not called Circle Members.

[AussieWebmaster]

What do they mean by this, how do they propose to go about it, and what will they they do with it?
Best Practices also covers the list of actions that an SEO should cover when optimizing... the methods and actions.

[ihelpyou]

SEMPO stating a list of ethics or best practices would be an even bigger joke than sempo is right now.

"inform the client of risks"

That's telling all other website owners that it's perfectly fine to spam as long as you don't get caught, and also giving a green light to the SEM industry that spam is just dandy as long as you inform the client of risks. :)

Besides all of that; who does this 'ethics' enforcing, and how would you do it? Oh I know, you simply take the word of the spammer who might be a Circle Member, right?

"Oh yes your leadership, I inform my clients of the risks of my techniques, and they are okay with those risks".

LOL What would you expect them to say to you about this type of ethics statement? Do you honestly think they would tell you they "don't" inform their clients?

Goodness. I feel I'm watching re-runs of the larry, curly, and moe shows.

Further; you state some kind of ethics Bologna, and you will further manage to damage the SEM reputation even more, if that is possible.

[rustybrick]

FYI - just got a members email from SEMPO. A day after the conference, that is pretty good effort. It summarized the meetings and future goals. Also talked about how to elect new members.

That is all for now from me.

[ihelpyou]

So?

I guess they deserve a mom's best cookie or something.




oh, oh.. further still: Many of the Circle members actually "outsource" SEO services to firms that are not a sempo member. How does that play into this ethics statement? You see, no kind of ethics can be had for them as the org stands right now. Actually, if you wanted to represent 'all' the industry, no statement of best practices or ethics could ever be had. That's for another type of organization altogether with a different mission and goals.

[bethabernathy]

Mine didn't say anything about how to elect new members it said this:

- Membership nomination and election of three new board seats to be completed by the end of the year (additional details will be sent to all members shortly)

[rustybrick]

It said if you want to participate, please email them at some address.

[bethabernathy]

That was related to the Executive Director position. Anyway, it looks like they are going to try, but long term follow through is the key. Here is the email:

"Greetings members,

It has been an eventful week for SEMPO! SEMPO was launched last year during the SES show in San Jose, and the first year anniversary was marked with much publicity in numerous industry forums, our members meeting in San Jose, the launch of our SEM advertising campaign, and the announcements of SEMPO Japan and a new SEMPO-sponsored research study.

Members Meeting

The meeting held on August 2nd was the largest meeting to date; over 200 members and sponsors. (In the future, we hope to leverage webcast technology to allow even more members to participate in these meetings.) Presentations and minutes from the member meeting are now posted on the member-only section of sempo.org - please log-in at http://www.sempo.org/sempo-members-login.php .

The meeting agenda included an overview of SEMPO’s objectives and accomplishments over the first year, recognition of objectives that fell short and how the organization and board will address these concerns, and the exciting goals for year two. SEMPO sponsors Overture and Verizon SuperPages.com presented information on their SEM client services and their respective presentations can be viewed at sempo.org.

The other meeting presentations included:

- Introduction of SEMPO-sponsored research - Rick E. Bruner, of Executive Summary Consulting, is conducting a comprehensive study to estimate the size of U.S. advertiser spending on search engine marketing and critical trends about the SEM sector. See related press release at http://www.sempo.org/press/research.php and Rick’s presentation for more details

- Launch of SEMPO Japan - see related press release at http://www.sempo.org/press/japan.php

- Launch of the on-line advertising campaign - examples of the ads can be seen at http://www.sempo.org/ads.php



Stated objectives for 2004 include:

- Membership nomination and election of three new board seats to be completed by the end of the year (additional details will be sent to all members shortly)

- Search for an Executive Director to be started this month with the goal of having a director in place by December, 2004. Members will be offered an opportunity to provide feedback on experience and skill-set required for this position, as well as recommendations for potential candidates. Please send questions or suggestions to execcommittee@sempo.org

- Definition of best business practices (with input from members)

- Increased focus on member communication, including the creation of forums on sempo.org

- Increased publicity and press activities to promote SEM to traditional advertisers and brand managers


Volunteers are needed for the following committees:

- Elections

- Executive Director Search

- UK

- Trade Association Liaison

- Finance

- Membership

- Japan

Send an e-mail to membership@sempo.org to get involved!

More information on related and other topics soon to follow. PLEASE update your member profiles as needed to ensure receipt of member communications for yourself and others in your organization.


Please send any questions or concerns to info@sempo.org.

We thank you for your support of the mission of SEMPO!"

[Marcia]

At this point it might be a good idea to point something out that seems to have gone by un-noticed - even in the midst of much "legal furor" and commentary.

Copyright Applies on the Internet

Don't think that just because it is easy to copy email messages, images, or other documents, that it is necessarily legal to do so. It could be a violation to post another person's paper, image, or even email message without first obtaining that person's permission. You can, however, feel free to link to page or document that is already on the web, as long as the owner of the page doesn't specifically forbid the creation of links.
http://scilib.ucsd.edu/howto/guides/CopyrightTips.html

Aside from legal considerations, which are of highest priority, in many instances it's also a matter of ethical behavior with respect to matters of privacy and privileged communications. Unfortunately, that's one of the less pleasant considerations that have to be dealt by forum mods, admins and owners with regard to public forum posts, but in some instances not heeding can eventually come back to bite.

[bethabernathy]

Hi Marcia - Great to hear from you. ;) If they intended the email to be private they should have simply added a small disclaimer on the bottom (which a few of my clients do) like the following:

"This email message and all attachments transmitted with it are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited."

But ... you may be correct in some way or another?? The above could just avoid it from the onset. Maybe forward them the text above. :) Other than that the content is pretty much just restating what RustyBrick said in the 1st or 2nd post on this thread.

There must be some reason why the IRS is mailing me their complete Application for Tax Exemption, Articles of Incorporation and form 1024 at no charge. Then also the State of Delaware is mailing me their Annual Report and their Certificate of Incorporation. Some items related to a non-profit are public knowledge. More details later.