SEM Hiring 101

[Joseph Morin]

Great article by Internet Retailer on Searching for Searchers (http://internetretailer.com/article.asp?id=16566) and the difficulties with hiring in-house for search expertise.

In-house guys, are you finding that this article is true? I actually think that the numbers quoted are very low judging from my own experience in California trying to hire experienced SEMs.

[Elisabeth]

Interesting that they use Overstock as one example.

I've met doug briefly before at an SES, and he's a good guy, but from what I have heard and seen, the salaries being offered over there are NOT close to touching some of those figures mentioned. They are decent salaries, don't get me wrong, particularly for those just out of school, or with less than 3-5 years experience - but anything above that, I think they are missing the boat on more qualified applicants.

Granted, cost of living here in SLC is pretty low, so you don't really need a lot to live well- but anyone with some solid SEO skills has the potential for much more, either just consulting, creating AdSense/YPN content sites or affiliate marketing.

[Marketing Guy]

In the UK, most the agency based work seems to be in London where the salaries are naturally higher - there does appear to be a vast shortage of skills - I rarely see people come through the door with any SEO experience at all, let alone years of experience!

I still don't think it's quite the seller's market in the UK that the article suggests it is in the US - agencies can pick graduates cheap and train them easily enough. Perhaps things will change when the industry matures a little more in the UK - I think the US SEM industry is farther ahead in terms of being a more established industry.

To be honest though, some of the vacancies I've seen haven't come close to offering what I could probably earn in a 10 hour week from Adsense if I put my mind to it.

It's hard to quantify the value of an experienced SEO when you have an established company in place which is able to train inexperienced staff on the day to day processes. The problem is you can learn 80% of the job in a week, but spend years learning the other 20%. And sometimes 80% is enough to get by.

[shor]

In-house guys, are you finding that this article is true? I actually think that the numbers quoted are very low judging from my own experience in California trying to hire experienced SEMs.

In Australia, the shortage of experienced SEMs (3+ years) is acute. It's a very small community where everyone in the industry knows each other and most of the vets run their own agencies or have been already snapped up to head SEM at more savvy corporations.

This is exacerbated by the relatively low prominence of SEM in Australia. While we have many talented SEO/SEMs in Australia (quite a few who inhabit SEW), AU generally lags far behind the US and European markets in ability and experience (For example, just about all of the final candidates for a recent high-level SEM role that we screened for were headhunted from the UK).

MarketingGuy, while I agree with the point you are making, I think Joseph was leaning more towards the middle-to-high end of SEM in-house recruitment, where it really is a seller's market trying to entice veterans to move in-house.

[tomslick]

The salary ranges quoted seem low to me as well. My experience is that you need to be above what was quoted to acquire good mid-level talent. However, I have been able to hire sharp online marketing analysts and teach them SEM in a relatively short period of time. Price tag is generally lower and they can help out in other areas, too.

But this tactic only works for SEM not SEO personnel.

[Phoenix]

a specialist promoted from within who will write search copy and track keyword density and site optimization



This shows some of the inexperience that people in-house can also have. Keyword density?? Maybe a couple years ago, but today its a different ball game. Yet the articles says that sometimes its better to recruit from within. Pros and cons to that argument. You get the benefit of someone already understanding your company, but the downside that they probably don't know that much. Pro is you can probably pay them less if you recruit from within the company, and Con is they may not be that motivated.

People I have met who were recruited in house or started doing SEO because they had too, I don't really qualify as so much as search marketing professionals but instead emergency response search marketing interns. They are called in because someone had to be there to do something about that search stuff that is so confusing. The investment though is in sticking with someone for a long time and leveraging the gained knowledge to help the company do well in the search space.

[domain]

Having run a job board for the last 12 months that specialises in the search engine industry, www.jobsinsearch.com, my view is that salaries quoted by companies are going up.

This is in part due to the jobs being seen as more "vaulable" as companies understand the benefits and ROI of search, plus the fact that there are not enough people with experience to go around.

Mike Taylor

[SearchCommands]

In the UK, most the agency based work seems to be in London where the salaries are naturally higher - there does appear to be a vast shortage of skills - I rarely see people come through the door with any SEO experience at all, let alone years of experience!

Yes and no. Name one London agency with a good reputation for organic SEO. The best I can do is think of Scottish or Cornish agencies with London offices.

[Marketing Guy]

Yes and no. Name one London agency with a good reputation for organic SEO. The best I can do is think of Scottish or Cornish agencies with London offices.

Touche! :)

[Carlos Chacón]

...I actually think that the numbers quoted are very low judging from my own experience in California trying to hire experienced SEMs.

Maybe in the United States you’re right.
But in my country, the starting annual base pay for mid-level search engine professionals is $9.000 to $12.000. Really good SEO marketing professionals working as department managers (we’re just a few here) are making $30.000 to $40.000.
:(

[Discovery]

I would tend to agree with Marketing Guy's point. Most of us who work as "Internet marketers" understand that we can generate a lot more income on our own than getting stuck in a salaried position. I don't want to come off cocky here, but six figures would hardly be acceptable unless it came with a large number of stock GRANTS in a promising company.

What I frequently find is a hybrid position. The professional either consults or has a long term contract with a company, yet is allowed to continue with his/her outside business projects so long as there is no conflict of interest.
This provides a stable income for the marketer and expertise for the company, it also provides a way for the marketer to take on more lucrative projects to attain the total income they desire.

And one more point, a solid Internet Marketing Professional needs to have experience in SEM, Application Development, and Analytics. Although they might not need to personally perform each duty, they need to know how to build the system, work the system and analyze the data.

[webconnoisseur]

I agree that $45-60k seems low, especially for SEO professionals. At that pay, anyone with moderate SEO skills would be better off running their own sites.

I do agree that it is a seller's market. When I took my current in-house SEO job last April, I received job offers from all three companies that I applied for. It feels like the market for SEO/SEMs was just warming up back then. Now I get at least one company a week contacting me out of the blue--I'm not even in the job market!

If I were a company hiring for SEO, I would want someone with:
-an SEO track record of at least 3 years
-a strong background that includes marketing, writing, and analytics
-a decent understanding of all aspects of a site (HTML, servers, etc.)
-a good personality and the ability to get others to buy into the SEO cause (this is particularly important for in-house SEOs where the ability to work with various departments and cut through red-tape is key)

Finding all those characteristics in one individual is tough, but skimping on any of them would be a waste of time and money.

[Adam C]

Yes and no. Name one London agency with a good reputation for organic SEO. The best I can do is think of Scottish or Cornish agencies with London offices.

I am biased as a former employee of a London agency - however in my time there we produced some outstanding results for clients large and small, and in some of the most competitive verticals including travel, gambling and finance. Amongst the best of the large UK agencies, I would have thought.

And I know they still have some quality there in terms of SEO consultants.

[Adam C]

I should also say that (first) finding and (then) hiring skilled SEO consultants is a very difficult task these days. It is liekly to become easier as the market matures, but for the time being people with the right credentials can command good salaries.

I recall this thread (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=5286) from a while back where NFFC asked "What is an SEO worth [in cold hard cash]" and likened the SEO consultancy model to that of the lawyer. Much of this rings true to me, and can be used as a yard stick for what competant SEO's can earn as a consultant, and hence how they should be paid as an in-house SEO.

Of course it begs the question: does a consultant require a different skill set to an in-house SEO?

webconnoisseur speaking from the perspective of the in-house SEO:

I do agree that it is a seller's market. When I took my current in-house SEO job last April, I received job offers from all three companies that I applied for. It feels like the market for SEO/SEMs was just warming up back then. Now I get at least one company a week contacting me out of the blue--I'm not even in the job market!

If I were a company hiring for SEO, I would want someone with:
-an SEO track record of at least 3 years
-a strong background that includes marketing, writing, and analytics
-a decent understanding of all aspects of a site (HTML, servers, etc.)
-a good personality and the ability to get others to buy into the SEO cause (this is particularly important for in-house SEOs where the ability to work with various departments and cut through red-tape is key)


The last 3 points are just as important for a consultant, particularly the latter. Hard to put a time/experience figure on things. Some learn quicker than others.

[Joseph Morin]

And it seems that the SEO/SEM hiring situation is only getting worse. (http://www.marketingsherpa.com/sample.cfm?contentID=3200)

Has the situation improved or worsened since we started this thread?

[Black_Knight]

Has the situation improved or worsened since we started this thread?
I think that depends on who you ask. :)

Seriously, some companies have seen the problem, and yet have done nothing to adapt to the situation they have seen. The 'jobs offered' section of these very forums are full of offers and very few have made any real effort to market the opening. It really is a basic marketing problem that many of those vacancies show:

Take alook at the posts in the Jobs Offered section, and it is surprising many haven't even thought to put a location in the title. Far worse is that almost all of the posts are self-centric - all about what the company wants from applicants, and no thought for what the prospective applicant will want from a company.

Anyway, to get back to the major point, the smart operators have adapted to the market conditions as they are. They have realised that the market is more competitive and that they have to 'sell' the vacancy to get attention from a relatively small pool of prospective applicants.

More than that though, the really smart companies are realising that they need to be producing their own pipeline of future experts by taking in more trainees and bringing them up to the required level of expertise. Its more about development and the future now.

The other companies who fail to adapt will have to continue to pick at the diminishing pool of folks who can't make it alone, aren't able or willing to make a good living from affiliate programs, and aren't preferring to be with a more forward-thinking and proactive company that looks to develop its staff, rather than merely recruit them.

[Joseph Morin]

Take alook at the posts in the Jobs Offered section, and it is surprising many haven't even thought to put a location in the title. Far worse is that almost all of the posts are self-centric - all about what the company wants from applicants, and no thought for what the prospective applicant will want from a company.

Ammon, I think you hit the nail on the head. In our industry, it really is a job seekers market if there is any talent there. Being a former in house Director of Search I constantly get calls from recruiters who tell me of year long vacancies that they cannot fill in my area and it took over a year to fill my old post. Then they want to send me over an application, and my thought is "Wait, what makes you so sure I want to work with you"? Lets talk about the position first, where it is and how you can accomodate me. For instance will I be allowed to work on my own projects? Can I work from home?

I dont know of one single in-house search marketer who doesn't have at least a small consulting practice on the side. All of my fellow panelists on Big Brand SEO or In-House Search at the conferences do and even the in-house guys I know that are specifically NOT allowed to - do anyway. Another thing I simply do not understand is the mentality that you have to come to their office everyday 9 - 5. Sure a few days a week for meetings perhaps but the corporate world is behind in their thinking by asking us to have to be there, that one I really don't get. Might as well be up front with the hiring company and tell them what you want.

[shor]

More than that though, the really smart companies are realising that they need to be producing their own pipeline of future experts by taking in more trainees and bringing them up to the required level of expertise. Its more about development and the future now.

The other companies who fail to adapt will have to continue to pick at the diminishing pool of folks who can't make it alone, aren't able or willing to make a good living from affiliate programs, and aren't preferring to be with a more forward-thinking and proactive company that looks to develop its staff, rather than merely recruit them.

Absolutely Ammon. On the big three Australian jobsites the market for online marketing jobs has grown substantially within the last year and a half. I have also noticed an increasing number of trainee and junior positions whereas previously everyone was scrambling to recruit mid-senior level employees with 3-5+ years experience. Many of these companies have realised the 'vets' don't come cheap (or don't come at all - since so many are o/s based!) and have opted to build from the grassroots level.

[cline]

Worsened. One of my staffing-company clients has a bunch of unfilled job orders for SEMs. They cannot be found.

[dannysullivan]

I split the new discusson on salaries over to here: SEM Salaries - What People Are Paying (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=10543).

[Discovery]

This is definately the best solution for companies looking to take their online marketing to a new level.

An in-house SEM will not only develop the skills necessary to market effectively, but will also understand the very fine nuances of the company's products and services. Even more important, and this goes to the why can't I work from home issue, is that the day to day fluctuations in consumer behavior can't always be detected by online campaign stats. They are also reflected in the opinions and experiences of the sales reps that sell the product. This obviously applies to a company that does not directly sell their products or services online. By having your in-house SEM being involved directly with the sales force they can develop an excellent sense for what is working both within a campaign and on the sales floor.

With that said, your SEM should have VERY flexible hours. As we all know our campaigns run 24/7 and thus we work our campaigns 24/7. If you want to keep an SEM all star in-house and happy allow him/her as much flexibility in their hours as possible. Sometimes that flexibility is worth more to the SEM than a 10% increase in salary.

And man are you all right. If any company out there thinks their SEM is not making some coin on the side they are very niave. Be honest and open about this issue and set your guidelines about outside work up front.

Cheers

Discovery

[spider ninja]

it is always a problem finding geniuses of course...they're too busy having fun on their own :D

[Black_Knight]

Anyone interested in revisiting this topic now, almost a year after it began, and seeing what has changed, and whether for better or worse?

[Discovery]

Not much has changed in my view Black Night. Except perhaps that there are even more opportunities for good SEM's thus keeping them happy at an in-house position will be even more difficult. I would think that most good SEM's would require a piece of the back end, not just a good salary and/or flex time.

Discovery

[Black_Knight]

Yes, I've not noticed any real change in the balance of things over the past year either. It is still a huge challenge for the average company to find skilled SEM staff.

However, I think that lack of change is the remarkable part. The situation ought to be expected to have gotten far, far worse.

That it hasn't become crtical and crippling yet is, I believe, a sign that many changes have been made. One change is that more SEOs are entering the field all the time (what can I say, its perhaps the hottest new job in marketing. ;) ), and this influx of talent is helping keep increasing demand checked. Another change is that more and more SEO companies are offering some form of training course, and/or consultancy services.

However, my view is that it will take more. The increased influx of people seeking a career in SEO/SEM is not an experienced workforce. Many of the training options I have seen are frankly insufficient to make someone a bona-fide skilled SEO, and instead bare minimum competency seems too often to be the end product. I think that perhaps some training options are of too low quality and practicality. Unless we can find a way as an industry to improve training, to impart better professional skills and experience, then I fear we'll see a gap between the 'Premier League' SEOs and the numerical majority of SEO companies widen beyond recall.

That will lead to a majority of SMEs (small and medium businesses) getting a poorer level of SEO service, and that rocking their faith in SEO for the future. That's bad for the whole industry.

[RichyP]

Just joined up with the forums and I have found this thread a very interesting read.

Having come from the UK to Australia I have noticed how the SEM/SEO market here is a few years behind the UK. I get the impression that business here is now only beginning to realise that they should dedicate resources to SEM and even then they are reluctant unless they have offered a 100% guarantee that they will have x improvement over current SERP.

From my experience I have noticed more and more positions being offered by organisations for SE related positions whereas a year or so ago you would be hard pressed to find a position solely dedicated to this field. As mentioned above the salaries do not seem to be up there yet but it is a start to get more dedicated positions being advertised and as time goes by I would expect to see the salaries increase if SEO related staff start to deliver.

Unless we can find a way as an industry to improve training, to impart better professional skills and experience, then I fear we'll see a gap between the 'Premier League' SEOs and the numerical majority of SEO companies widen beyond recall.

I think the problem here is that a lot of Premier League SEOs have traditionally been reluctant to impart the 'holy grail' knowledge of SEO. That’s not good for the industry as a whole in the long term but it keeps the top dogs earning the big bucks in short term. :(

Rich.

[Black_Knight]

a lot of Premier League SEOs have traditionally been reluctant to impart the 'holy grail' knowledge of SEO
Welcome to the forum RichyP.

I don't expect SEOs to give away their hard-earned knowledge for nothing. I'm talking about taking staff training more seriously, rather than posting more stuff in forums. After all, I'd say that 90% of the writable techniques of SEO are already out there in forums now (which is why I see literally dozens of new 'SEOs' appearing in any given week), but that the techniques aren't the differentiator.

Yes, there are also loopholes and ultra-specific things that work great but that won't be posted in forums. Obvious reason for that, of course, since posting a loophole is the fastest way of closing it. But just knowing the loopholes of the day is no differentiator either.

Experience and judgement are often the real differentiators between a top-notch SEO and a so-so (or worse) SEO. The experience to tell fact from fiction. The experience-based judgement to know which of the huge array of options for any project will be optimal, not only in terms of result, but also in efficiency for the client and project. The experience to find new loopholes, and the judgement to know which loopholes have ROI, and which could close in a damaging manner.

Let's just look back for a moment and one of the posts in this thread that actually spelled out what they'd want from an SEO.
If I were a company hiring for SEO, I would want someone with:
-an SEO track record of at least 3 years
-a strong background that includes marketing, writing, and analytics
-a decent understanding of all aspects of a site (HTML, servers, etc.)
-a good personality and the ability to get others to buy into the SEO cause (this is particularly important for in-house SEOs where the ability to work with various departments and cut through red-tape is key)
From all the job ads I have seen, and the recruitment tasks I myself have dealt with, that desire for experience - a track record - is point one of every offer. It is right that it be so, because experience is one of the key elements of professional level SEO. The other is the ability to adapt over time (usually through active research and predictive ability). Track record is a good indicator of an SEO with the experience and adaptability to have long term value. It helps to rule out the people who have only learned by rote, and only have tricks for todays algo, and nothing up their sleeve for tomorrow.

[Discovery]

I dont mean to be demeaning in saying this; from what I have experienced I believe that there are a lot of "SEM's" that are one trick ponies. They may be good at one thing, usually SEO, but are not a complete package. The experience many are lacking is the ability to create a full circle analysis system. I see many SEM's managing campaigns only from a CPL standpoint. This is because they are not able to create the reporting system necessary to manage from a CPA (Cost Per Acquisition) or Profit Margin standpoint.

A good in-house marketer should be able to gear all of their marketing efforts to the company's objectives and make changes to meet new business objectives in short order when necessary.

For the SEM position to gain value and grow it needs to be demonstrated with hard data to the CxO level that their efforts have a clear and direct impact on the companies bottom line. Again proper data collection and reporting is essential in doing this.

SEM's have an advantage over traditional marketing - We have a higher degree of control over the data we collect and the analysis we can draw from that data is far less ambiguous. Not to mention it can be real time and our ability to adapt to change is unmatched.

just my 2 cents

Discovery

[SEO Montreal]

Well if anyone is interested, I'd be happy to volunteer as an intern with someone's established SEM agency/in-house team. My interest is in learning the skills hands on before I spend my own money on ads.
Incidentally, I'm a good SEO with a year's experience, especially in politics and economics/finance.

[cryptblade]

I wanna chime in on this topic. I was recently hired for SEO sales - a departure from doing SEO. I experienced a lot of SMBs trying to hire SEOs and the bottom line is that they either can't afford one or have NO IDEA what they need.

I suspect companies large and small actually need help defining what they need first instead of throwing it out there that they need "SEO" or "SEM".

For example, I had one mortgage company advertise for "SEO/IT". I applied anyway. In the interview, I specifically told them that I am not an IT person and would not do any IT work - that the SEO work is plenty enough.

They countered that "SEO" will only take so much time - whatever. But after I named my price, they countered with an offer $10,000 less - and gave me 24 hours to decide. Needless to say I didnt take the job at all.

But it illustrated to me that the problem isn't just in finding quality candidates. In my experience, too many companies STILL have no clue about what SEO is, how specialized the skill is, and what value to place on it.

I think just like many companies call on SEO companies - and are STUNNED that SEO jobs can take thousands instead hundreds of dollars - many are ignorant of the valuation to place on quality SEO talent.

I had offers at $36,000 and $40,000 - even though my resume shows that I've got 3 years of SEO experience.

I even had one that recruited me - then scoffed at me because my experience was mostly in SEO instead of "SEM" (PPC).

Now I get recruiting offers from companies skipping SEO - and looking for "interactive marketing" professionals.

I honestly think that a lot of companies, their HR departments, and the recruiters are completely clueless - all contributing to their problems of filling positions.

[AaronShear]

It is a shame that a business would offer 40k for someone to drive what could be their largest profit center in the business.

They should offer a much higher base and a bonus package to drive you to succeed.

[shahid]

I agree that $45-60k seems low, especially for SEO professionals. At that pay, anyone with moderate SEO skills would be better off running their own sites.

I do agree that it is a seller's market. When I took my current in-house SEO job last April, I received job offers from all three companies that I applied for. It feels like the market for SEO/SEMs was just warming up back then. Now I get at least one company a week contacting me out of the blue--I'm not even in the job market!

If I were a company hiring for SEO, I would want someone with:
-an SEO track record of at least 3 years
-a strong background that includes marketing, writing, and analytics
-a decent understanding of all aspects of a site (HTML, servers, etc.)
-a good personality and the ability to get others to buy into the SEO cause (this is particularly important for in-house SEOs where the ability to work with various departments and cut through red-tape is key)

Finding all those characteristics in one individual is tough, but skimping on any of them would be a waste of time and money.

Agreed, it is very difficult, or let me re-phrase, find an SEO person with the right mix of skills. Plenty of general SEO marketers, but finding SEO people with web development backgrounds seems to be a problem with recruiters....or so my previous boss is telling me since I moved onto a better paid role.... :)

[beu]

Agreed, it is very difficult, or let me re-phrase, find an SEO person with the right mix of skills. Plenty of general SEO marketers, but finding SEO people with web development backgrounds seems to be a problem with recruiters....or so my previous boss is telling me since I moved onto a better paid role.... :)

So true! I've seen clients incomes increase by as much as $50,000 per month after implementing basic SEO services.

[netidme]

However, my view is that it will take more. The increased influx of people seeking a career in SEO/SEM is not an experienced workforce. Many of the training options I have seen are frankly insufficient to make someone a bona-fide skilled SEO, and instead bare minimum competency seems too often to be the end product. I think that perhaps some training options are of too low quality and practicality. Unless we can find a way as an industry to improve training, to impart better professional skills and experience, then I fear we'll see a gap between the 'Premier League' SEOs and the numerical majority of SEO companies widen beyond recall.

That will lead to a majority of SMEs (small and medium businesses) getting a poorer level of SEO service, and that rocking their faith in SEO for the future. That's bad for the whole industry.

I think this is a very good point. As an SEO client, (just aiming to learn the basics), I had previously employed an SEO consultant who claimed to have the req. skills & experience, but in reality, knew little more than me. My mistake I know, and I am happily working with a seasoned expert now - but I must admit that the experience did taint my opinion of the SEO industry for a while, & I often come across web designers who claim to know SEO, but in reality know the bare minimum, or worse, suggest black hat techniques for their clients.

[caugas]

Interesting that they use Overstock as one example.

I've met doug briefly before at an SES, and he's a good guy, but from what I have heard and seen, the salaries being offered over there are NOT close to touching some of those figures mentioned. They are decent salaries, don't get me wrong, particularly for those just out of school, or with less than 3-5 years experience - but anything above that, I think they are missing the boat on more qualified applicants.

Granted, cost of living here in SLC is pretty low, so you don't really need a lot to live well- but anyone with some solid SEO skills has the potential for much more, either just consulting, creating AdSense/YPN content sites or affiliate marketing.

You are dead on Elisabeth, I know Doug personally and I know alot of the folks at OSTK, they are underpaid in "industry terms" hands down. I know a few people who worked in there affiliate program and they were also underpaid in my opinion. The whole marketing staff at OSTK is pretty sharpe, they need to be due to low margin products and high MKT cost. Pertaining to cost of living in SLC, rent is cheap, but that about all, I lived there for 5 years. Best, guess, is that OSTK makes good with stock.

[cryptblade]

With Doubleclick now owned by Google, Right Media by Yahoo, and now aQuantive by MSN, do you think SEM jobs become more "commoditized" under giant ad-agency bureaucracy? Or more valued? I know personally, aQuantive/Avenue A/Razorfish frequently tried to recruitment me almost every 3 months. And from different recruiters....

What do you all think?