Are Non-Regional Ads "Dummy Bidders" At Google When Regional Results Are Selected? [Archive]

GAustralia

10-25-2005, 06:53 AM

In Australia there are two search options: (1) Search the Web, and (2) Pages from Australia.

If Pages from Australia are ticked and the search Virtual Offices is selected, approximately half the sponsored ads are from outside Australia such as London and Hong Kong.

This means, as a sponsor, I have to bid higher amounts against irrelevant offers to obtain position. Dummy Bidders are illegal in Australia for auctions. I say that Google is not being honest in this case and also providing a disservice when a user only wants Pages From Australia that is all they should get. Good search should reduce the clutter. Google can do a much better job. I told them all this in an e-mail and their customer service computer sent me a response thanking me for my input.

I think Google could be open for claims of artificially inflating bidding amounts. What say you? I would just be happy if Google provided as represented: Pages From Australia.

Jenstar

10-25-2005, 10:19 AM

As an advertiser, why should I be excluded from advertising to those from Australia, simply because my website doesn't happen to be from Australia. If my site/product/service etc is applicable to those in Australia, despite the fact I don't happen to be IN Australia, why should Google exclude me from advertising?

Advertisements are based on where the advertiser wants to target...meaning advertisers have chosen to advertise there. It does not make good business sense for Google to exclude me as an advertiser simply because my address says Canada instead of Australia.

And from a surfers perspective, what if I have a product/service/etc that an Australian surfer is looking for, but I have been excluded form advertising to that person because I am not from Australia. That doesn't make for a good user experience, either. If I sell something that someone in Australia can buy, why on earth should my advertisements be excluded from those people?

Chris_D

10-25-2005, 10:40 AM

Hi GAustralia,

Your logic is flawed -the issue is the advertiser - NOT the system.

If Pages from Australia are ticked and the search Virtual Offices is selected, approximately half the sponsored ads are from outside Australia such as London and Hong Kong.I'm an Australian company - what if I want to open a UK 'office'? Do a search (from Google Australia) for 'virtual office london' Try virtual office new york. Try virtual office mars.

Look at all the AUSTRALIAN serviced office companies who are showing their advertisement - who don't have a LONDON/ New York/ Mars virtual office to sell me.

Who are the 'dummy bidders' now????

All you are highlighting with your example is that the people who advertise in that sector apparently don't know how to use Adwords effectively.

The UK virtual offices should try geotargeting their campaigns so they don't show in countries that they don't have an product to sell in; and the Australian advertisers should learn about 'negative keywords'.

Ok - even as a professional - I probably wouldn't have excluded mars. :)

Its the nut behind the wheel that needs tightening.....

Patrick Berry

10-25-2005, 12:47 PM

i think the original poster has something here.

not legal aspect, frankly who cares-.

i mean that the poster has stated that even only pages FROM AUSTRALIA, and these adverts are getting through.

so organic results can be filters to domestic country but ads cannot, even when you are asking to.

interesting observation.

GAustralia

10-25-2005, 06:02 PM

Hello,

I have read your replies.

All global companies may be accessed in Australia by selecting: "search the web."

I am thinking of a better Google search that reduces the clutter when a user only wants Australian companies or companies doing business in Australia. (Perhaps Google could do more with these regional searches offering them globally).

This is why I believe Pages From Australia should only include .com.au and .com.net and ALL THOSE companies who OPT IN - not the clutter that defaults in.

My example still stands. If I am in Australia, and I select PAGES FROM AUSTRALIA and I search Virtual Offices, chances are I am not looking for virtual offices in London, Hong Kong, etc. Then why should I be subjected to such clutter if I selected a more limited search:PAGES FROM AUSTRALIA?

GAustralia

I am not saying that

Marcia

10-25-2005, 07:24 PM

You will get organic results that are .au domain or hosted in Australia which is what the SEARCH preference is. Search preference is for organic, algorithmically determined search.

That is DIFFERENT from paid adverts. One is determined by the algo, the other is determined by who expects a ROI for paying their advertising dollar by targeting that market for customers. Different criteria, different program entirely.

Another thing - you say virtual office. Well, if you mean virtual assistant, the very crux of that service is that that the service can be and usually is remote so physical location of the provider doesn't mean squat. If someone provides the service in a locale then they DO belong in the results. The way the algo works they won't come up in organic search, so they need to do Adwords.

Frankly, it sounds like the bidding is higher than you like so you'd like to eliminate the competition that isn't physically located there. But the service may not warrant it the way you want it to be, and it's satisfying the searchers/customers that's the purpose, they're the ones who pay for the advertising.

This means, as a sponsor, I have to bid higher amounts against irrelevant offers to obtain position.If they provide the service there then they are not irrelevant.

GAustralia

10-26-2005, 06:17 AM

Hello Marcia,

Reply: virtual office offers are irrelevant outside the target area of a potential customer. If a potential customer's target area is global than all global offers are relevant - this is not usually the case.

Some questions for you:

Do you have a business?

Do you believe that the Google engine search is perfect?

Do you believe that there are no issues of clutter when doing searches?

What ways do you think that the Google search can produce more relevant results?

GAustralia

mrwywy

10-26-2005, 11:28 AM

Do I understand correctly? Your saying if I went to say google.ca entered “flights to Australia” and selected only pages from Canada, then Qantas airlines should not be allowed to tell me that they to offer flights from Canada to Australia? I agree the organic results should only return domestic results, but the advertising results should and must return relevant ads, and obviously “flights to Australia” is relevant to the entered quarry regardless from which country you search from or within. I think it’s safe to say that Qantas would like to target their ads to show up in not only all the countries they fly to and from but even the cities.
The same is true for your example, any one offering virtual services would target all regions. On the other hand an Eskimo in the artic who was selling used igloos would not want his ad showing up in local Australian searches and if his ads were showing up then he is wasting his money. (Yes I know unless he was trying to get people from Australia to move into used igloos in the artic.)
Blocking ads from internationals on localized searches would be like banning a local newspaper from running ads for companies outside of its community. I would consider this protectionism and censorship. (This would be very bad luck for the Eskimo especially if had taken a liking to the people in that community)
Perhaps you see Google as something that is not. I know Google likes to come across as a just for you tool always there to lend a hand but in reality it is nothing more then a business and it’s in the business of selling advertisement.

GAustralia

10-26-2005, 05:21 PM

Hello mrwywy,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

If you are in Canada and you wanted a search "flights to Australia" then this may better be served by not using the regional search. You would think that any airline that has flights from Canada to Australia would target Canada in their advertising/webpage.

With my example with Virtual Offices - the industry definition of this includes a phone number. So if your customers are in Canada then it may be contra to your business to list an Australian phone number requiring the customers to dial internationally and to reach the virtual office out of hours when the phone may not be answered in person. And if you were in Canada and you wanted a Canadian based virtual office service, and you select Pages from Canada then you are done a disservice by having half the sponsored results and lots of the organic results from outside the country. If you are a Canadian based provider of Virtual Office services then you must compete against many international providers of the service in the Canadian regional search - bidding more than you should to obtain position.

Do you know the proportion of people who search in Canada: Pages from the web vs. Pages from Canada? The default is Search the Web so this must skew the searches.

YOUR QUOTE: "an Eskimo in the artic who was selling used igloos would not want his ad showing up in local Australian searches and if his ads were showing up then he was wasting his money."
This is part of my point. The eskimo would not be wasting money so much as any Australian based competitors who must bid against the Eskimo for Adword position. Of course in this case there would not be many competitors.

I think lots of companies do not use the Adword facility to target the ads so the effect is that they then advertise globally.

I would not be interested in blocking results/ads - I am interested in reducing the clutter and beleive that Google could do a lot better. I see regional searches as a great idea yet need to further reduce the clutter from outside the region.

I agree with you that Google is a business. I believe that if they do the right thing and reduce clutter it could also mean fewer sponsored ads yet a greater percentage of relevant sponsored listings for any search, and less competition for Adword position - less $ for Google.

GAustralia

GAustralia

10-27-2005, 12:51 AM

From what I have seen Yahoo does a much better job than Google in separating sponsored and organic results on a regional basis. Why can't Google do the same as Yahoo?

GAustralia

splinters

10-27-2005, 01:35 AM

GAustralia, I'm an Australian company with a .com domain and my web site is hosted in the US.

How would you suggest Google allows my sponsored ads to appear when you choose "Pages from Australia", but not display pages from outside Australia?

Patrick Berry

10-27-2005, 03:55 AM

good point splinters, but that is googles problem.

the point raised - and I believe it is a valid point - is that pages from searches include adwords worldwide.

Its an interesting observacion.

splinters

10-27-2005, 04:54 AM

As Jenstar has already pointed out, if I want to advertise in another country and am prepared to pay for those clicks, Google must oblige.

Rynert

10-27-2005, 05:22 AM

If Google should be obliged to show your worldwide (non-local) adds when somebody selects local results only, should we also expect Google to oblige us and show our worldwide (non-local) sites in the organic results of a local search?

Are we saying that just because we pay, we should have something different for the local results?

Irrepsective of the definition of 'local', should it not be one way or the other?

Patrick Berry

10-27-2005, 06:25 AM

Jenstar states:

As an advertiser, why should I be excluded from advertising to those from Australia, simply because my website doesn't happen to be from Australia. If my site/product/service etc is applicable to those in Australia, despite the fact I don't happen to be IN Australia, why should Google exclude me from advertising?

First off, hello Jenstar, I am somewhat reluctant to directly respond to one of your posts, since your reputation proceeds you but, here goes anyway !

I as the searcher have made a decision that I only wont pages servered from Australia (in this example). The advertiser is been excluded by the searcher. Not the search engine. Thats a big differnece.

I believe that Google is a successfull business because it has sustained its focus on its principal objectives, organizing the worlds information in a manner that facilitates the searchers task. I think this is a clear example were this is not occurring. The searcher makes a decision. Chooses to filter the results, but this filter is not applied to the ads.

On a side note: personally I am happy this is not occurring, I am based in Spain, and have a couple of US destined sites hosted here in Spain.

splinters

10-27-2005, 07:47 AM

If Google should be obliged to show your worldwide (non-local) adds when somebody selects local results only, should we also expect Google to oblige us and show our worldwide (non-local) sites in the organic results of a local search?

Are we saying that just because we pay, we should have something different for the local results?

Absolutely. The expectations of someone who pays Google nothing to be listed (organic) shouldn't be the same as those of someone who pays.
In any case, there's no guarantee that organic listings will be truly local anyway when you choose local results.

Rynert

10-27-2005, 07:56 AM

But isn't it the expectations of the searcher that should be foremost, not the advertiser?

Therefore the results should be consistant, or at the very least it should be transparant to the searcher that the adverts displayed take no notice of their choice to have local results only displayed?

strategicrankings

10-27-2005, 08:12 AM

The problem is with the libel; should read "Pages targeting Australia" instead of "Pages from Australia" and be less confusing.

Marcia

10-27-2005, 11:23 AM

The organic search and the paid adverts are two completely different programs with different criteria and mindsets. Searchers ARE getting au results in the organic search, so their preference is being honored. But advertising is a different matter - if people want to PAY to advertise in the space accompanying the search, as long as it's appropriate to the topic, then it's their money and their loss if the searchers don't convert and give them ROI.

Providing search and selling advertising are two different things and the "preference" is only for search, not for the advertising. Adverts are NOT search results - they're ads.

AussieWebmaster

10-27-2005, 11:29 AM

The interesting part of this is that it is all open for interpretation.

Pages From Australia if defined for both organic and PPC would mean only advertisers who Google interprets as "from Australia" - that could be a .au or an Australian IP or an Australian address in the registry (they have access now) or even an Australian address in the PPC account info.

But it appears that Pages From Australia means organic search even though it has been observed that every country gets slightly weighted results for sites from their country anyway in the organic results.

My question is what happens if you go for the Local approach - use Sydney Vitrual Office etc. - try both broad and exact matching and see how the results are returned....

Also use Keyword Inserts - Sydney Virtual Offices etc. will get a higher CTR and thus move you up at a lower CPC. I would recommend using a local approach:
even if the person is typing in virtual office by creating groups of local areas to send different ads specific to the area will increase your CTR and lower your CPC.

rogerd

10-27-2005, 12:52 PM

Location is increasingly meaningless these days - a domain can be registered in one country, can belong to a company incorporated in another country, and may be hosted in a third country (with a failover server in a fourth), and ship from a fulfillment firm in yet another country... what counts is the relevance of the ads to the searcher. If I search for "buy diamond bracelet" and select Australian results, I'd hope to get PPC ads from companies that will deliver a bracelet to my Australian address with a minimum of hassle. Where any portion of their business or web presence might be located is irrelevant.

It strikes me that this is a self-correcting problem. If an advertiser is foolish enough to target a region where they can't deliver their product or service, their conversion rate will be awful, their ROI will be negative, and they'll either stop the ads or go out of business.

sunnymonkey

10-27-2005, 01:30 PM

This can be cleared up quite simply...

Imagine you are on www.myinformationsite.com, and this website was talking about stuff from somewhere.

Down the right hand side of the page this information site shows some google ads and these ads are from the world over.

----

Now think of the google search. Google search is a search engine for searching organic and indexed pages from the world or from a particular place. Down the right hand side they display ads. You do not search ads, you do not filter ads, they are simply ads that happen to appear on the google search engine. They also appear in gmail, on other peoples websites, blogs etc.

When you select to view pages / sites from a particular country or even a particluar domain, that does not have anything to do with the adverts that will be displayed.

It is advertisers choice where they show, google and site owners display ads and can choose which ones they show.

So there is no issue here really except that google advertise on their search engine. :)

AussieWebmaster

10-27-2005, 02:30 PM

The CTR may not be effected it is as was pointed out the ROI... but too many people are looking at Google spends as a whole and thus could be losing money on certain searches and not tweak it...

Remember more than 50% of advertisers do not track past getting to the site.

joeduck

10-28-2005, 02:47 AM

hello Jenstar, I am somewhat reluctant to directly respond to one of your posts, since your reputation proceeds you.

Jen I knew you were good but I didn't realize you were....dangerous!

GAustralia - I agree with Jenstar and Marcia. You seem to be suggesting an adjustment to adwords that would *usually* hurt the advertiser and the user. Note that if people are NOT clicking on the ads they'll appear lower in ranks or not at all - it's not simply who bids the most, it's also how popular the ad is. The clutter you are talking about probably is seen as 'good stuff' to some users. Unlike straight bidding (where irrelevant sites can dominate), Adwords forces relevancy.

GAustralia

10-28-2005, 06:59 AM

Hello Joeduck,

I disagree with you. What I propose would help the user by reducing the clutter and the time required to wade through what is out there. It would also help advertisers of irrelevant, out of the customer's target area, by not exposing them to clicks that will have a low ROI. It would help the local advertiser gain position as those advertisers who are out of the customer's target area would be excluded. Wins all around.

I did suggest a way to further limit the results in the regional search. I am not saying it is perfect but what I am saying is that the Google results could be more targeted. Perhaps you need to be in a region to fully appreciate the appeal of a highly relevant regional search. Australia is more isoloated than most countries as Australia is an island/continent nation.

I do like Rynert's comment: "Isn't the expectations of the searcher that should be foremost, not the advertiser." The whole idea is to help searchers get to what they are after more quickly - that is how Google will keep and gain further market share.

Strategicrankings has a good point of changing the name "Pages from Australia" to "Pages targeting Australia. This would present the least challenge to Google but would better match what the search currently does.

From what I see of Yahoo they do a better job isolating regional results (although they seem to really mix up the Australian and New Zealand results). No one has addressed this point.

Why wouldn't Google offer these regional searches globally? If I only really wanted services & products from Canada, a Canadian regional search may be a way to really get to the point. If there is a really local oriented Canadian site they may not plaster themselves with "Canada" so as to attract attention in a general web search with the phrase Canada in it.

Thanks for all the comments.

GAustralia

AussieWebmaster

10-28-2005, 07:41 PM

The ads are a bit more eglatarian... best example is 1-800-flowers they do not have offices everywhere the are a co-op type set-up... apart from the stupid advertisers there is always the ability for people to network and make money writing good ads etc. and take the percentage to more than compensate the ad costs....

joeduck

10-29-2005, 12:15 AM

GAustralia -

If users are clicking on those ads they are, basically by definition, desirable.
If users are NOT clicking at least 2% (plus or minus depending on some other factors) then Google removes the ads. At least they say they do and I've seen this happen for my own bids where my clicks were insufficient to keep the listing.

GAustralia

10-30-2005, 03:53 AM

Dummy bidders at home auctions in New South Wales Australia will face fines of up to $27,500 under new laws.

In any auction dummy bidders have the potential to distort market forces and artificially raise prices. All Google sponsors have an interest in fair auctions free from irrelevant offers to keep the costs of clicks from being artificially inflated. One of my points is that I believe Google is too liberal in "broadly matching" searches with sponsors. I have provided "Pages from Australia" as a key example of this.

Another example was when an uniformed and much larger competitor of my business - Servcorp - pursued my company because they believed I used their trademarked terms among my Adwords. Their legal firm sent me a letter stating that I flagrantly violated their trademark and asked for damages and threatened legal action if I did not respond within a week. I could not duplicate their "evidence" which contained 13+ other entities with sponsored ads. I had to provide my company confidential adword report to disprove them and send them away. Google admitted that the search "evidence" resulted from their "broad matching" facility. Something like Servcorp's trademarked term had the word "office" in it as did one of my Adwords.

Another point, from a region, is that I believe Adwords defaults with content partners selection ticked. I looked at the content partners such as AOL and Sprint and noted that they were predominately US based. I could get some customers from there, however, I thought that I could risk lots of irrelevant clicks. Put your ads infront of millions and someone is bound to click on them - spammer philosophy. Other companies with more regionally based products and services would do better to opt out of content partners - Google does not provide much information about this in their sign up form.

Joeduck -

Interesting point. Searchers could also find these sponsored ads under "Search the web."

Aussiewebmaster-

Location is an issue. I am still saying Google could do better - if Google is challenged then their technical gurus may come up with something.

Regards, GAustralia.

mcanerin

10-30-2005, 05:29 PM

GAustralia,

I think you have a point, but there is a catch. I would hate to be an Australian company that marketed globally, and since I didn't expressly target only Australia, was not considered to be Australian.

Scenario 1: What if I'm an Australian affiliate of Amazon.com? Should the ad be considered Australian or US? Where is the line drawn? The end product or the purchaser of the ad?

Scenario 2: What if I hire a UK based PPC company to manage my PPC for me? Very often, they pay the AdWords fees directly, then add their management markup and then bill me. This means the "owner" of the account is UK, not AU, if Google were to look it up based on who is paying.

So, you can't trust the final site as indicative of whether someone is local or not (as in the Affiliate case) and you can't trust the purchaser/payer (as in the third party PPC case), how does one determine whether you should be "local" or not?

Finally. Let's say that, in the process of attempting to weed out non-AU advertisers, they kick out some legitimate Australians. How would that go over?

My personal experiences with Australians so far lead me to suspect that Google would hear about that in no uncertain terms - and quickly ;) I could be wrong, but that's been my experience.

What if I went out and bought a com.au domain and parked it on an Australian subsection of my (very Canadian) website? Those pages show up as Australian, that's what. And it would be a good response because it's a clear indication that the intent of those pages are to appeal to Australia, just as if I choose to target an AdWords campaign towards Australia.

I agree that I would prefer the clarification be better. Here are some possible choices:

"Pages Related to Australia"
"Pages Targeting Australia"
"Pages Relevant to Australia"
"Pages Geolocated to Australia"

I don't like "Pages From Australia" because it doesn't matter where a page is from, what matters is where it's targeting and who it's relevant to. "From" is "old school" thinking - that websites in a certain country only matter to that country. If my .ca is hosted in South Africa, it still counts as Canadian (and should). Where it's "from" is just a hosting issue.

I could even live with "Australian Pages", since it implies more of a relationship, rather than purely a source. Thinking more about it, I like "Australian Pages" a lot.

"Pages From ______" is misleading, and I'd like to take this opportunity to call upon Google to fix it - for ALL local results pages.

Ian

GAustralia

11-02-2005, 06:53 AM

Hello Ian,

Google does a lot better job in terms of relevancy in the regional search with organic results - these tend to be "Pages from Australia." The regional sponsored results tend to be "Pages Targeting Australia."

I still believe Google spreads the sponsored ads too broadly to maximise competion between sponsors with the interest of profits first and searcher finding relevant pages second. I believe all the sponsored ads targeting Australia should show in the "search the web" default option. If they also show in the "Pages from Australia" search option this is duplicative and not serving the interest of both the searcher who is seeking a narrower search and regional sponsor. The Google results are bias in favour of the global multinationals.

In the "Pages from Australia" search option the sponsored results should undergo more filtering - as to how this is done exactly is in need of Google technical gurus - a number of issues have been raised in this thread.

No one has answered my question of if Yahoo can limit the sponsored results by region then why not Google. It can be done.

GAustralia

projectphp

11-02-2005, 07:37 AM

I still believe Google spreads the sponsored ads too broadly to maximise competion between sponsors with the interest of profits first and searcher finding relevant pages second.
No way. No way. Sites selling advertising are in it for the money? What next: no weapons of Mass desctruction in Iraq? The tooth fairy was just my mum? Santa Claus not being real?

I am stunned by this revelation, and am off now to protest by by complaining, grandpa simpson style, about the depiction of old people on TV.

The Google results are bias in favour of the global multinationals.
What, not the freemasons? Google is turning into a TV station, what with their failure to show my ads in primetime with unrealistic prices...

Seriously now (no really, I have a serious point) Google's website, Google's goals come first. I am sure your primary motivation in having a website isn't to provide a fair assessment of your competitors but rather an attempt to promote your own business agenda. Is it unfair that Google to do the same??

IMHO, the solution you are looking for ios seperate CTR for each region. That solves all the issues, and actually works better for Google (gets them nore revenue).

GAustralia

11-04-2005, 06:59 AM

Hello Projecthp,

I like your input and challenge. Well stated. Yes I have not addressed Google's profitability and assumed that Google is very interested in the end user.

However, in your argument you imply, in my opinion, that perhaps Google has progressed to a more mature stage of developement where they are focused less on customers and more on profit. I disagree with you and have more faith in Google management that they are still very focused on the customer.

Google must have placed customer first or very high in relation to profit from the begining. If they had started out flooding their search results with sponsored ads from everywhere, or providing irrelevant search results then they would not have risen to the position they now hold. They have risen to the #1 market position in search because their search outdid the competition in the eyes of the end user.

I have heard Bill Gates say that Microsofts's main markets are very competitive and that competitors may spring from anywhere. I believe that what Bill Gates says is more true for Google than for Microsoft as what Bill sells is more imbedded in PC's, what Google sells is a shortcut away. Any year, a competitor may challenge what Google does and be the next Google. I believe that Google fully recognises this and that while they are profit focused they can not afford to be any less than totally customer focused.

Projecthp, what I believe that what you are implying is that Google may be beyond the customer focused stage to a very profit focused stage of development. This is a stage that innovation is only progressed to the extent that competitors or government forces it.

I had mentioned that another Google could pop out any year and believe Google recognises it. Just look how Google poped out.

Governement. I have lived in the US. I know that in Australia that there is more focus on being PC - "politically correct." As a reflection of this the government regulator - the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) is much more proactive than US bodies, in my view, at enforcing correct advertising/product representation. I have worked in relatively large Australian companies. From my experience the legal departments of these companies would not approve of providing a service option with the combination of : 1) stating that search results will be "Pages from Australia", 2) flooding the sponsored results of Pages from Australia with advertisements from around the globe, and 3) forcing regional Australian advertisers to bid higher amounts in the option Pages from Australia for position against these global offers.

Why I beleive Australian legal review would not approve:
1) Risk of scrutany of the ACCC in regards to The Trade Practices Act with potential of extra expense to modify services under government mandate and pay fines.
2) Risk of competitors complaining to the ACCC in regards to this practice.
3) Risk of end users complaining to the ACCC in regards to this practice.
4) Risk of negative publicity caused by action of the ACCC.

Projecthp, please encourage me more. Maybe those legal deparments in the firms I worked for were "blowing smoke" and the companies were paying for overkill in the legal department. Maybe we will find out what the ACCC view is of my claim of Google placing "dummy bidders" in regional auctions and the misrepresentation presented through the search option "Pages from Australia."

GAustralia

GAustralia

11-04-2005, 07:12 AM

Hello SearchEngineWatch.

First, I wish to thank you for providing this forum.

Next, I have issue with the quote you have picked to place under "Featured Discussions". Also thanks for placing this thread under featured discussions.

Quote:

As an advertiser, why should I be excluded from advertising to users from a country, simply because my website doesn't happen to be from that country? Join this thread to see more on this HOT topic.

SearchEngineWatch - via this quote, what you are implying is that what I am after is the above - exclusion. To clarify, there are two search options available from Australia: 1) Search the web(the default option) under which there are no exclusions, and 2) Pages from Australia - under which Google is implying that there are exclusions. My issue is with Google to provide what they imply: Pages From Australia - including exclusion of Global Sponsored offers. This is how Yahoo works. Google can deliver on what they imply.

GAustralia

Marcia

11-04-2005, 07:34 AM

My issue is with Google to provide what they imply: Pages From Australia - including exclusion of Global Sponsored offers.For *search* - yes. But I would challenge any legislative body or judiary to mandate an algorithm for advertising which is a different matter altogether from search. They would have to WRITE the algo which would have to be used. Good luck.

GAustralia

11-04-2005, 08:38 AM

Yahoo does it. Maybe Google could ask for the alogorithm from Yahoo.

projectphp

11-04-2005, 09:14 AM

Seriously (man, I gotta stop writing that), if you do take Google on legally, you won't hear me complain! Not a single bit. I like a good stoush as much, if not more, than the next guy. You have some very valid points, although I am sure an (expensive) lawyer could think of some equally valid counterpoints, and if you have the $$ to pull it off, more power to you.

If you need me to gee you up to do it, just let me know. I can dare, double dare, heck, I'll even physical challenge you if it helps.

Marcia

11-04-2005, 09:47 AM

For some reason I was under the impression that the success of business policies was dependent on the satisfaction of their customers - in the case of search engines, that would be their visitors/searchers.

Why would a company make changes because one disgruntled or under-capitalized person resents or can't afford paying a higher price for advertising because there's too much competition?

Since when do governments tell companies how they should run their businesses? And which ones, where?

GAustralia

11-04-2005, 07:03 PM

Projecthp,

"Peace Brother" SearchEngineWatch should have the icon for Peace! There is not enough Peace in the world.

Projecthp, when I look at the personal cost/benefit of pursuing Google on my issue of Dummy Bidding the potential benefit does not support much more than presenting and clarifing my point on the net. Yes I am paying more to compete in a regional search with global offers but maybe it is 10 cents here a dollar there - it does not add up to mega bucks for me personally. However, a regulator might have a view of the impact on the market as a whole and the cumulative impact on a range of companies.

My presentation and clarification of the dummy bidding issue is based more on principal rather than $ to myself.

Other questions I have when trying to figure out the $ impact of my dummy bidding issue are:

1) What are the percentage of people in Australia who select "Search the Web" vs. those who select "Pages from Australia" when they really only want Australian based services? My guess is that the majority go with the default option "Search the Web."

2) If someone wants Australian services are they more likely to use Search The Web and then also include "Australia," "Sydney," or some other Australian subregion in the phrase, or are they more likely to select Pages From Australia for their search without listing Australian geography in the phrase?

Google allows lots of targetting options. Perhaps other options could be Regional search only and Search The Web only. Sponsors may find benefit in tailoring campaigns based on which search option is selected. SearchWatchEngine - I could use a Lightbulb icon here.

Marcia-

I agree with you in the importance of customer satisfaction and that Google should stop the flood of Global sponsored offers in the regional search, to keep relevancy and satisfaction high.

A company like Google would implement a good idea from a single person as they are constantly searching for ways to keep relevancy and satisfaction high.

Governments tell businesses what to do all the time. It is called government regulation. Some big examples are when the old ATT were told that they must split into 7 odd companies, cigarette companies were banned from advertising on TV, Microsoft was told that they could not force only the use of their browser (at the exclusion of Netscape and others) when their operating system or Office package was used. A company can not build a nuclear power plant right next to someone's house, etc.

GAustralia

Chris_D

11-06-2005, 08:27 AM

GAustralia - I'm really getting confused at what you are trying to achieve here?

I've already pointed out several times that mostly - the dummies are the bidders themselves:

http://www.google.com.au/sponsoredlinks?hl=en&c2coff=1&q=serviced+offices+uranus

http://www.google.com.au/sponsoredlinks?hl=en&c2coff=1&q=serviced+offices+hobart

Think about what the 'perfect' prospect for your business looks like. What should someone be typing into a search engine to find your company? Maybe something like: http://www.google.com.au/sponsoredlinks?hl=en&c2coff=1&q=serviced+offices+gordon&btnG=Search+Sponsored+Links

Focus on your business model. How are clients going to find you?

Should you pay more for a prospect looking for a serviced office in uranus than you do looking for a serviced office in Gordon? The same? No bid for uranus?

Worry today about what you can fix today; change today the things over which you have the power to change - and with the time you have left over today pray that someday you'll have a say on the other stuff over which you have no control today......

joeduck

11-06-2005, 01:36 PM

GAustralia -

Kudos to you for your persistence and diplomacy coming under attack from what appear to be the "capitalism rules" folks like me. I'm often surprised how hard it is here in the USA to suggest that Corporations have many responsibilities *outside of pure profit making* without being accused of being a socialist or communist. Ironically you find the "corporations have responsibilities" sentiment more among the big players like Bill Gates and Google founders Brin and Page than among the little guys.

I realized today after reviewing the thread that you may be describing a process that Google may have made immune to the "minimum clickthrough" requirements I was talking about.

If they have done that (apply no/low standard of relevancy to big advertisers) then I agree with you that you MAY have something that approaches a "dummy bidder" case here - though I'm guessing you'll find Google's addressed this in some technical way.

In fact I'd encourage you to ask Google directly through the google.com feedback system using "legal issues".

G'day from USA

projectphp

11-06-2005, 08:56 PM

Since when do governments tell companies how they should run their businesses?
They always have! Some examples:
1. Advertising Cigarettes anywhere is banned in Australia.
2. Monopolistic practices are banned, in (most) countries (see various Microsoft law suits).

The rules a company is forced to play within are defined by the government. And gambling ads are banned on Google after all, so some pressure has been successfully exerted already.

Still, there is a line. What is a company / business's right to choose what to do with their business, and what is the law's right to define boudaries? An (expensive) lawyer knows the answer to that better than I, and I think gas bagging about law suits against a multi-billion $ companies is like threatening to shoot an Elephant with a spitball.

Besides which, this specific problem has several possible solutions, from Ian's "Australian Pages" (taking away the "from" makes sense) to making CTR country dependant.

Personally, it is a non-issue. AdWords allows smart bidders to do very well indeed, so any inflation from foreign, poorly targetted competition is irrelevant.

Chris_D

11-06-2005, 10:13 PM

AdWords allows smart bidders to do very well indeed, so any inflation from foreign, poorly targetted competition is irrelevant.

......because it affects their clickthrough rate - and therefore the position of their advertisement.

GAustralia

11-07-2005, 05:37 AM

Hello Chris -

You provide some interesting searches. "Serviced Offices Uranus"

My ad shows up in that one - your examples - as does a number of sponsors that obviously do not offer such a service. In my view this is just another instance of Google placing too many clickable ads in places they don't belong. If I was the only serviced office in Uranus I would end up bidding against a range of other companies under the Google broad matching facility - basically everyone else who has serviced offices in their adwords - even if my only adword was "serviced offices Uranus." I would argue that this is certainly not a service to the searcher. And if there was a regional search for Uranus I would not appreaciate the flood of other sponsors who Google would stick in there. Nor would the Uranus regional searcher.

Generally I think Google is great.

Thanks for the advice/philosophy. And thanks for the bidding advice.

GAustralia

Chris_D

11-07-2005, 06:23 AM

In my view this is just another instance of Google placing too many clickable ads in places they don't belong.
No - Google is doing what the Advertisers asked them to do. You selected broad match. You got it.

You've broad matched a term - and NOT tailored your message to your specific target market. What about appending Hobart, Parramatta, or Brisbane to your search? Does your ad show?

As I've said many times in this thread - learn how to use the Adwords system. Its full of tools to help you target the campaigns.

Have a look at Negative matching on your broad match phrases - or - alternatively - look at exact matching for what you do offer.

mcanerin

11-07-2005, 01:17 PM

As an advertiser, if you select broadmatch with no -KW on a topic, then you pretty much get hosed, at least 80% of the time. It's good for research (or really low traffic or inherently specific terms) but otherwise the law of the jungle will be along shortly to straighten things out, I think.

A broad match on "serviced offices" would just as easily match "serviced offices australia", "serviced offices uranus" and even "serviced offices owned by american imperialists that I can firebomb".

You want to talk about a bad SERP to be showing up in...

Ian

GAustralia

11-07-2005, 03:54 PM

Chris, mcanerin,

Point made on Exact Matching. With Exact Matching you can avoid your clickable ads in places where they may not belong. (Also Negetative Keywords helps this.) (Also may help increase CTR and ad placement).

However, if you Exact Match then you still must compete against the Broad Matchers.

Also, I am getting the impression that when advertisers select Broad Match this defeats points made several times in this thread on CTR. Point made is that if CTR is not there the ad will go away. If the ad is Broad Match then there may be relevant clicks on it but the ad will not be removed from the irrelevant not clicked presentations of the ad - it gets "subsidised" in those instances.

I also have the impression that Broad Matching is supported across Search The Web and regional options. My original example of "dummy bidders" remain. No the irrelevant ads will not go away themselves.

I believe Google defaults to Broad Match.

GAustralia

GAustralia

11-07-2005, 04:23 PM

Proposal: That the Google search for Adwords (and I also believe organic search) should automatically present a mix of exact searching and broad searching. Exact first.

It should only be fair that if I have a business on Uranus and one of my keywords is Serviced Offices Uranus then this ad should be given some priority over the Broad Matching Sponsors who do not use this exact phrase.

Some may say that the searcher could search with "exact search match" or that many searchers do not know exactly what they are looking for. I say that this Exact Search Option is a bit hidden in the Google interface, many don't know about it, and the end user in many cases may not be served by the existing search default setup.

Perhaps Google could weight results something like 25% exact and 75% broad in the searches. Maybe the adjustment of these percentages can be an "advanced option."

GAustralia

GAustralia

11-08-2005, 07:04 AM

Hello Mcanerin -

Peace brother! Where is that SearchEngineWatch Peace smiley when you could use it.

GAustralia

dannysullivan

11-08-2005, 10:26 AM

First of all, GAustralia, you keep addressing a member called SearchEngineWatch, but we have no one by that name :)

Secondly, some clarification fo how Google and Yahoo do regional targeting is probably in order. Someone come along and correct me, if I'm wrong.

Want to advertise to Australia through Yahoo? You've got to open a Yahoo Australia/Oveture Australia account in addition to having a US one, if that's what you are currently doing. The same is true for any country you want to go after. The logistics of opening all these accounts is one reason why you should see fewer ads from those outside Australia. Again, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but that's how I still believe things work.

With Google, through one single account, you can target anywhere. Now you personally seem to have two issues with this. You feel like those bidding outside the country are somehow "dummy" bidders pushing up the rate. You also feel like these ads are irrelevant, especially if you've chosen to see pages "from Australia."

Let's take the relevancy side, first. I looked, and Google doesn't seem to have any editorial guidelines I could find about targeting in other countries. I believe Yahoo used to say something like you couldn't advertise in a country unless you could sell goods to it. Fair to say, Google ought to do something similar. You shouldn't be seeing ads that are irrelevant to you. If I search for "mortgages" in the UK, I don't want ads from the US, Australia or anywhere else for that matter that won't help me. But if I search for "US mortgages," then I may very well want to get ads from outside the UK, maybe from specialty brokers who help those in the UK get mortgages for second homes in the US. And -- even if I push the "UK pages only" button, such ads might be relevant to me, as well.

The ultimate relevancy police here is the cost to the advertiser, which you are entirely overlooking. If the ads don't get clicks, Google will drop them. If they do get clicks, they cost the advertiser money. The advertiser will only keep spending that money if the clicks are converting. If they are converting, then the ad is pretty likely relevant. If they don't convert, the advertiser stops spending and the ad goes away. You have a correcting system in place.

I suppose you could have a button to say "pages and ads only from Australia," but I don't see how that's workable. As others have explained, there are perfectly good reasons why someone not based in Australia may advertise in the country. And what do you do about major institutions in Australia that aren't owned by someone in the country? Do they get barred? German BMW owns Mini -- so can they not advertise Minis in the UK? What rule book will we go by?

As long as an ad really can provide a service that Australias or anyone in a particular country can purchase, I don't see the issue. Guidelines to say that sites that target internationally need to ensure they can properly take orders internationally would help, of course -- that might eliminate the problem of going to a form and not seeing where you can put in your country or your phone number outside of a US format.

As for dummy buyers, I guess you don't win with me on that front. I think it's fair for Google to let people target various country, indeed, it's essential this be allowed.

AussieWebmaster

11-08-2005, 12:38 PM

GAustralia

11-10-2005, 03:27 AM

Hello AussieWebmaster -

Changing the Google organic search/sponsored ads from a default broad search to a mix of exact and broad search would not only save you and me some money but would be in the interests of all sponsors and to the benefit of end users who would get a search result with more relevancy.

Seems like a good idea to me.

To the forum: Any confirmations or holes to shoot through the following:

I am getting the impression that when advertisers select Broad Match this defeats points made several times in this thread on CTR. Point made is that if CTR is not there the ad will go away. If the ad is Broad Match then there may be relevant clicks on it but the ad will not be removed from the irrelevant not clicked presentations of the ad - it gets "subsidised" in those instances.

It seems like there is not much sympathy for good regional search results in this forum. I suppose you need to be in a Region to appreciate a regional search. I would like to satisfy my curiosity about the regional searches and ask that Google let me run separate campaigns in the regional search and Search The Web Searches.

GAustralia

dannysullivan

11-10-2005, 05:08 AM

With respect, the US is a region. I've been in the US and seen ads targeted at me badly there. I live in the UK and get bad ads. I get bad ads that are prefectly regionally correct but are mistargeted for other reasons.

There's sympathy for good, organic results with everyone.

There's a desire for good ad results from many, but plenty care less about this because they depend on ads less.

In the end, if the ads are bad, Google either doesn't make money or the advertiser doesn't make money, and that quickly should put an end to them.

projectphp

11-10-2005, 08:51 AM

I know the following trivia:
1. Super absorbent material and wings are apparently properties that influence the choice of "feminine hygiene" products.
2. They are so effective, in fact, that women can go to the beach and frollic in water.
3. These products come in a range of colours, in cute little packets.
4. "Carefree" is the most ironicly named brand in history. Carefree my butt. I actually had a PMT propelled bottle of tomato sauce fly past my head the other day!

And don't even get me started on menopause, incontinence or "erection problems" (none of which I suffer from. I swear! Though I am getting hot flushes lately.. menopause maybe?)...

So, how targetted where those ads, given I am "in my twenties" (for one last summer) and male? What stops advertisers from ever advertising innapropriately, and when has the onus been on the provider? If advertisers perceive value, they will spend. If not, they should stop. Darwinian economics at its proudest.

... ask that Google let me run separate campaigns in the regional search and Search The Web Searches...
But Google already do. Your ability to target isn't the suppossed problem here. Or did I miss something? Your problem was untargetted ads innapropriately showing under specific country searches. You can personally target wherever you like, and Google is by far and away the best at this.

GAustralia

11-10-2005, 11:16 PM

Hello-

Re: Companies target ads inappropriately though all mediums, those that target poorly will go out of business. Google is no different [yes different - see below].

Good point projecthp.

Counterpoint: Google is contributing to poor ad targeting - something they have some control over.

1) Example: Adword for Serviced Offices Uranus by only provider on Uranus. If someone types in Serviced Offices Uranus then this adword ad should appear 1st if it the only adword purchased for the exact phrase "serviced office uranus." Instead, Google forces the Serviced Office Uranus operator to compete with every company who is broad matching the word Serviced Office - almost as if "Uranus" was not a special and unique location. And, Google forces a flood of irrelevant sponsored pages infront of the searcher.

2) If someone in a region wants to search whe www then they use Search the Web - and receive all sponsored ads targeting that country. If they only really want something from a region -and they want to narrow the search -then they may select something like Pages From Australia. Here Google still likes to flood the sponsored ads with offers from eveywhere. Virtual Offices was my example earlier - something like 50 results and half clearly overseas offers. Yahoo does better filtering why can't Google? Google has some control here but they do not use it.

Re: 'companies who target poorly will go out of business'. Projecthp I believe you are using the case of a web based company who lives and dies by the clicks that come in. Most companies are not throughly web dependent. Some are bigger than others and have big budgets and spend lots on advertising other than Google Adwords - if the targetting is poor or not, it does not really matter for them. They could also be a poor Adword targeter via the shootgun method but as they shoot everywhere they manage to bring in a few customers - thus they may believe that the activity is worthwhile.

Google contributes to poor targeting by: 1) not respecting some formula for exact search matching Adwords, 2) Loosely interpreting regional boarders in regional searches.

The Broad Matching facility does not help as some of the appearance of an ad may get good CTR while other appearances don't get any clicks, and therefore the ad will never be removed from those completely irrelevant appearances of the ad.

Projecthp: re trivia. Some examples you refer to are results of bombardment advertising. Google and Adwords is different. You actually have someone providing some indication/direction as to what they would like to receive. Google would do even better to further respect what the enduser wants and do better at delivering it to him or her.

GAustralia

projectphp

11-11-2005, 01:32 AM

Serviced Offices Uranus
But what about if the searcher had selected "Pages From Neptune" on google.com.nep ;)

Chris_D

11-11-2005, 02:55 AM

GAustralia - here's a question that only you can answer.

Why were you showing your advertisment in responses to searches for 'serviced office uranus'; 'serviced office alice springs'; 'serviced office hobart' and 'serviced office melbourne'

BTW - your adverts still show for 'serviced offices pluto' :)

Was it because you didn't understand negative match and/or specific match, and dedicate enough time to managing your advertising campaign?

Google gives you self service tools to allow you to manage your own account. It gives you the option of having a GAP professional manage your account.

It seems to me that your major complaint is that your competitors don't understand how to manage their own accounts.

Whose fault is that?

GAustralia

11-11-2005, 04:40 AM

Hello Chris -

You seem to have a knack of encouraging me to draw my points out further.

I have implemented negative keywords a few days ago as the result of your recent advice (also will pursue my web designer with your comments in hand). :)

POINT: I can not negative keyword everything irrelevant to my offer. My webpage not only comes up under Serviced Offices Pluto but also Serviced Offices New York.

What do you advise? I could just use exact match.

What do you think of this?
REMEDY: Google should offer a negative keyword, geography, facility such that if I have not already put a geography as part of my Keywords then the ads get excluded, if option selected. (Let Google figure out a database of Geography names).

The GAP Professional sounds interesting.

Main Complaints so far sumarised:

1) Google does not mix exact match with broad match in the organic and sponsored results. If I am the only one with Serviced Offices Pluto in my adword I should have priority placement over all the broadmatchers out there broadmatching "Serviced Offices."

2) Google is too loose in their definition of Regional and they flood in lots of sponsored ads from outside of a region - maybe they could do some negative keywording themselves.

Yes I am complaining about the competitors ads everywhere which I believe 1 and 2 above would help fix.

GAustralia