Mike Grehan Stirs Up SEMPO Controversy [Archive]

Incubator

07-27-2004, 02:47 PM

Interesting article. To me I don’t really see the point off some of the statements i read. I do not know Ms.Coll at all, but if that’s a SEMPO business decision who are we to make controversy out of it. Obliviously Ms.Coll is very qualified for the position , whether she has another full time income is irrelevant...she’s qualified

As for SEMPO, they have the right to run their business the way they choose to better the organizations look and impression on people, if MS.Coll can deliver this outline with good conversions then, yes, the fee paid to her is justified in SEMPO's mind
Not being involved with SEMPO myself and really do not see a Canadian content factor in their plan (I COULD BE WRONG since I think i have been to the site once or twice a long time ago)

As any business, their decisions are hopefully made from proper direction, It is always hard for small organizations to add a second "pipe" to thier business model/plan when it looks like the "damn" is going to bust...so to speak

If that added salary is the problem, I’m sure SEMPO can justify it in their business direction
From what I also read....the board at SEMPO has some heavy weights on it, these professionals do take the time to make SEMPO a part of their work, should they be paid...well....how much work are they losing by providing this service. Once again look at this list of Directors, they are "movers and shakers" in some peoples eyes

More power to you SEMPO, hope you benefit in that direction your are following to make SEMPO more credible and recognized

My 2 cents

Cheers

WC

Nick W

07-27-2004, 02:51 PM

After parting with my cash I waited patiently for my welcome pack and my newsletter and frequent pinging about events and happening stuff and... Not a sausage.

That's quite damning also. Sounds like many members may feel the same way?

Nick

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-27-2004, 03:14 PM

A while back, I worked for a firm that signed up as a member to SIMPER :)

I got a few spam emails, some affiliate offers, etc...complete with tracking codes!

Nothing substantial...and, I've been predicting this move (eg, that Barbara gets paid by SIMPER) for a while now.

Nobody - repeat, NOBODY, is going to go & crusade for the industry without some direct (and or easily trackable indirect) compensation.

>>>not a sausage

That's good.

>>>board members

Dam st8 they should get paid! I happen to know one or three of those guys, and IMHO, they should be getting some serious $$$ since they hopped on board and in many ways legitimized the whole thing. If it weren't for Kevin, Danny, etc al (Fred & company too) they Barbara would have been standing alone, running a flag up the pole on an island by herself, with nobody heading or caring about the cattle call to 'action'.

NFFC

07-27-2004, 05:00 PM

I think the $ thing is a side issue, of course people deserve compensation for their efforts.

To me the greater point is that thus far they have done nothing for nobody but themselves. I don't see that changing.

The day they close the joke down will be a happy day for SEO's, imho.

seobook

07-27-2004, 05:09 PM

As for SEMPO, they have the right to run their business the way they choose to better the organizations look and impression on people, if MS.Coll can deliver this outline with good conversions then, yes, the fee paid to her is justified in SEMPO's mind

The whole concept of non profit is that everybody gives. The fact that board members got a free $5000 / year inclusion is adequate compensation in my mind.

The whole idea is that everybody gives something and as a whole our industry does better. $78,000 is a bunch of money.

Nobody - repeat, NOBODY, is going to go & crusade for the industry without some direct (and or easily trackable indirect) compensation.

I completely disagree with that statement. If and when I get more successful I would like to help out the SEO industry for free. Hopefully that is what many of our forum posts do anyway.

Incubator

07-27-2004, 05:23 PM

The whole concept of non profit is that everybody gives. The fact that board members got a free $5000 / year inclusion is adequate compensation in my mind.

The whole idea is that everybody gives something and as a whole our industry does better. $78,000 is a bunch of money

A $5000.00 media buy wont deliver as much as you think, since it seems like SEMPO fee at that price delivers more then just PR pass, I saw alot more info that might be useful to companies that may help them on thier in house effects, if nothing else that might be a savings in outsourcing SEO. Dont get me wrong I am fully behind outsourcing SEO once a company properly understands that in house may become more then a one person job.

The 78k is irrelevant cash amount, that would be an SEO account spread over a year at $6500k a month. Im sure Ms.Coll would treat that as a client type of payment structure area or maybe not, I dont know the nature of her pricing and I really dont want to as well

Sometimes it costs money to make money, and offer a service that is trying to become an industry standard does take alot of time and money

Instead of hearing posts like "is cloaking bad " do meta tags work? and all the other negative information surrounding SEO, at least SEMPO seems to be trying to bring it into the over deserved attention it needs

But then again im still also looking for Canadian inclusion factors before I would be a member

Cheers

WC

Elisabeth

07-27-2004, 05:25 PM

The whole concept of non profit is that everybody gives.

not exactly. grass roots maybe, smaller organizations. Plenty non-profit organizations employ and pay executives (more than adequately).

It may seem like a lot of money, but it does depend on how many hours per week a person puts into the organization, and you definitely have to consider those hours as lost billable time- it's a trade off - you can only 'donate' so many free hours to any cause. and you also have to consider Barbara's standard hourly rate, which is at the top of the SEO scale.

i'm not saying I agree or disagree with the idea.

but it will be very interesting to see all the reactions to this.

seobook

07-27-2004, 05:33 PM

A $5000.00 media buy wont deliver as much as you think, since it seems like SEMPO fee at that price delivers more then just PR pass, I saw alot more info that might be useful to companies that may help them on thier in house effects, if nothing else that might be a savings in outsourcing SEO. Dont get me wrong I am fully behind outsourcing SEO once a company properly understands that in house may become more then a one person job.

So far money spent promoting my 8 month old SEO Book site is slightly less than $5,000 and last I checked it was a top 10 ranking site for "seo" on both Yahoo! and Google (it just went up to 10 on Google recently but may shift some back and forth). That $5,000 does not count my time, but to me if you are serious about changing stuff you can donate your time.

It is not like those placements are without payment either. I remember at a conference (I think NY SES) Kevin Lee stated that he tracks his traffic and that they have seen conversions come from SEMPO.

The 78k is irrelevant cash amount, that would be an SEO account spread over a year at $6500k a month. Im sure Ms.Coll would treat that as a client type of payment structure area or maybe not, I dont know the nature of her pricing and I really dont want to as well

That is easy for you to say, but some people do not make that much. I could probably promote a site for "online casino" or "buy viagra online" for well under $78,000. That is a ton of money in the SEO field.

Sometimes it costs money to make money, and offer a service that is trying to become an industry standard does take alot of time and money
I have no problem donating my time.

Instead of hearing posts like "is cloaking bad " do meta tags work? and all the other negative information surrounding SEO, at least SEMPO seems to be trying to bring it into the over deserved attention it needs
But is it???? I certainly hear a bunch more about Traffic Power than SEMPO. I have linked into the SEMPO site since its inception, and for a long time I was one of about a dozen sites linking toward it.

Incubator

07-27-2004, 05:47 PM

So far money spent promoting my 8 month old SEO Book site is slightly less than $5,000 and last I checked it was a top 10 ranking site for "seo" on both Yahoo! and Google (it just went up to 10 on Google recently but may shift some back and forth). That $5,000 does not count my time, but to me if you are serious about changing stuff you can donate your time..
I agree with you to a point there, but when you own or operate a corporation time becomes more precious then money for some, it still takes a commitment from both sides of a non profit business, nothing is free especially if you want to be an authority.

That is easy for you to say, but some people do not make that much. I could probably promote a site for "online casino" or "buy viagra online" for well under $78,000. That is a ton of money in the SEO field.
couldnt tell you about Viagra..... but SEO for "online casino" 78k... sure, now SEM for the same casino is a different game. Been in it for seven years now,know the industry very well and its about conversions not just SERPS.
Now that same 78k for SEM, PPC, portal development wont do it, sorry thats just the facts, especially when you have them come to you and ask to be in the top positions they feel are converting

I have no problem donating my timeGreat, you should contact them, I would if I was you

Cheers

WC

seobook

07-27-2004, 05:58 PM

couldnt tell you about Viagra..... but SEO for "online casino" 78k... sure, now SEM for the same casino is a different game. Been in it for seven years now,know the industry very well and its about conversions not just SERPS.
Now that same 78k for SEM, PPC, portal development wont do it, sorry thats just the facts, especially when you have them come to you and ask to be in the top positions they feel are converting

since Casinos and the US government decided online casinos were a bad thing the biggest ppc networks no longer exist, so primarily the money would just go to promotion.

you can build an amazing site for $20,000 and $58,000 is a ton of money for SEO. the casino is not a good or fair comparison to make though.

the average US worker (especially the average non profit worker) makes nowhere near $78,000 / year.

Incubator

07-27-2004, 06:13 PM

since Casinos and the US government decided online casinos were a bad thing the biggest ppc networks no longer exist, so primarily the money would just go to promotion.For now, do you honestly think that the main publisher like "Google" and " Overture" like continue on that field the second that law comes up for appeal, their the onl ones making real money

you can build an amazing site for $20,000 and $58,000 is a ton of money for SEO. the casino is not a good or fair comparison to make though..
no its not because it get harder, its not just one domain you are promoting its the "family" of portals they have. Most of the "main online casino companies" (which is less then you may think) offer 6 plus sites to promote, all serving different offers.

the average US worker (especially the average non profit worker) makes nowhere near $78,000 / year.
The top online casions make millions, they know that if someone comes along with a $5000.00 package it may not be developed in a full marketing plan for them and they have tried these packages before with a very high lose rate. Once again its just education. Should education come at a high price along with conversion and proper SEM tactics? Of course it should, that is why we are also in business. As for the average US worker...guess what, same in Canada, but you cant bring that to an online business equation when dealing with an industry as huge as online casinos

Back to the topic of SEMPO, all im saying is that if they are stepping to the plate to offer a better service more power to them and it will come at some form of cost that should be covered

Cheers

wC

AndyBeal

07-27-2004, 06:20 PM

When you volunteer for a cause you do so for the good of that cause. Don't you think it's a little coincidental that board members are now (allegedly) being paid for that time. A cynic would suggest that was their intent all along. Barbara has been a little too happy to take the lead role, don't you think?

Simple litmus test...ask her to resign...we'll then see if she is doing what is best for the industry and not herself.

NFFC

07-27-2004, 06:28 PM

The money thing is just a side issue.

Looking, through my biased eyes, at the bigger picture. SEMPO is just another attempt to control this industry by a group of individuals looking to advance their own aims.

I am not prepared to accept that and will not accept that.

The power, influence and $ in our industry lies not with the board of SEMPO and their companies, it lies with the independent webmaster professionals [as wmw puts it] that daily shape the www. It is the interests of that group that should be paramount, to allow SEMPO to try and usurp that power by the back door is simply wrong. Rather than allow a very small group of individuals to gain "special" privaliges we should be pushing the SE's to be more accountable to the webmasters that grace them with their content.

Without trying to get too personal, I have never, ever, seen a more amatuer set up in my entire life, and I've been around somewhat. I am sure the antics of SEMPO have raised much amusement within the SE's, if it wasn't so sad I'd be laughing too.

Without trying to get too personal part two [but sometimes it is about individuals] - There are [were] a couple of members of the board that I think our industry looked to, people we expected to not be blinded by BS and look out for "us". I think those two in particular have in some way let "us" down, Mr Sullivan and Mr Tabke need to take action to address that.

Once again, IM[biased]HO.

Brad

07-27-2004, 06:36 PM

The trick is, will the members think they are getting value for their money?

If not they will either demand accountability, results and/or demonstrable work product or they will vote with their feet.

It's been a year and I think people are still a little fuzzy on understanding what SEMPO is about and what SEMPO can do for them.

lots0

07-27-2004, 09:41 PM

I guess everyone will have to decide for themselves if SEMPO is an org that is out to promote the SEO industry or just promote a few individuals within the SEO Industry.

I guess if these folks want to promote our industry, it's OK with me, but they really should hold the self promotion to minium when working for a non-profit org (no matter if they get paid or not to volunteer their time).

dannysullivan

07-27-2004, 10:35 PM

Been out all day and just saw Mike's article. Thought I'd add some points, as well as address the specific concern NFFC had.

Unlike what Mike says, SEMPO was not Barbara's "brainchild." It grew out of the open forums we'd have at SES. Inevitably, we'd come back to issues about the industry reputation, the need to organize and so on. SEMPO was the brainchild of many of those who attended those sessions and wanted something more formal to emerge.

Barbara was one of those in attendance at these sessions -- and to be fair to her, she stepped up to the plate big time. You can question why she did it. Was it to earn the money she's now apparently paid? Was it to raise her reputation? Was it just out of desire to help the industry? Only she knows the true answers. Personally, I don't think she needed SEMPO as a money earner or reputation builder, but others are certainly free to disagree. But there's no doubt she was a prime mover in getting the organization past just talk and into action.

And the board members? Many of those were people who attended the organizational meeting in Boston 2003 and did a lot of work voluntarily to get things going without any promise of being on the board or any idea that it might actually happen. Anyone who was at that meeting could choose to be involved.

As for my involvement, I made it clear even when ideas were being floated of a group in those early organizational sessions that I didn't want to be running it or leading it. I'm busy enough with the work I do for SEW and SES. More important, SEMPO is an opportunity for others to have a voice for the industry.

I did think forming SEMPO was a good idea, however (and I still think the group can play an important role). That's one reason I agreed that between the Boston SES session and the August SES show last year when SEMPO launched, I'd serve as one of the interim board members. I did want to help see the organization actually get off the ground.

After that time, I stepped down off the board. I was happy to serve in an advisory capacity to the board, meaning that I might offer advice if they sought it or proactively if something seemed worth raising.

For example, when concerns were raised about some people thinking SEMPO was an accreditation body, I helped suggest some of the text and disclaimers that were posted to the site. More recently, as I explained in another thread, I raised to the entire board that I thought SEMPO would need to move toward addressing the reputation issue in some concrete way. I'd also spoken with Barbara a few weeks ago about the upcoming meeting and how I thought it was important SEMPO be ready to map out what it might do next.

So to what NFFC said:
I think those two in particular have in some way let "us" down, Mr Sullivan and Mr Tabke need to take action to address that
I'm sorry if you feel let down. I guess I have a longer term view and would like to give SEMPO some time to grow. I think there's potential in SEMPO even to do exactly some of the stuff you suggested:

we should be pushing the SE's to be more accountable to the webmasters that grace them with their content.

That's part of what I was suggesting in my original reputation thread (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=566), that SEMPO itself might help to serve as a check on some search engine actions. Perhaps it could do even more.

Of course, what SEMPO ultimately does (and if it succeeds) is down to the SEMPO membes themselves. My understanding is that the SEMPO members were surveyed and that some of the key issues were more educational material, help in business setup and so on. I think SEMPO has actually done some of that -- but a SEMPO board or committee member would comment better on this than I.

For the record, the stipend is news to me. As for the appointment of someone from Italy, Mike raised this issue with me several weeks ago. My reaction was basically, is SEMPO supposed to have a representative on the board from every country where it has members? If so, it's going to be a very large board indeed.

After talking with Mike, I did speak with Barbara and asked her about this. She explained that the person appointed had done a lot of work lobbying for SEMPO to grow in Europe. So the appointment seems in line with the initial appointments -- it was someone that stepped up to the plate.

As for Mike's suggestion that the entire board resign, I'd suggest something more practical. First, I don't think you want to lose your entire board all at once. But all the board members do have fixed terms. The board might want to consider moving those forward in stages, so over the coming year, voting might actually take place by the members and the whole "self-appointed" issue would be resolved. But the existing board certainly should have the right to stand again, if they want.

By all means, these or other issues should be raised at the next SEMPO meeting by the actual members of SEMPO. Whether it survives, thrives or what direction it goes is really down to them.

NFFC

07-27-2004, 11:18 PM

>I'm sorry if you feel let down.

I do, like it or not you have a "position" within the industry, people look to you to lead. As the industry evolves people will be looking to you more, it's a cross you will have to carry.

>Whether it survives, thrives or what direction it goes is really down to them.

I don't think it is, they need the bulk of the SEO's behind them, or at least those that can shout loudest.

After such a bad start, and I mean bad, the thing needs nuking. Maybe somebody could start again but not with the current leadership, better to kill it dead.

Joseph Morin

07-27-2004, 11:59 PM

First off:

but a SEMPO board or committee member would comment better on this than I.

I am on the membership committee of SEMPO. What does this mean? On occasion I sit down with Barbara and throw around ideas for SEMPO promotion and answer a few posts and emails. My time is extremely limited and as any busy SEO can attest, having the time to post, moderate or volunteer is literally extracting hours out of the day that you don't have not to mention the loss of income that you would normally be making by servicing your clientele.

I joined SEMPO after that first meeting in Boston 2003 and I believe I was one of the first out of my seat to hand a card to Barbara (who I had not met previously) to say I was interested. During that meeting there was a call for volunteers and as Danny stated, there were no promises to anyone that by donating time, it would be rewarded with a board seat. I honestly wish I had more time to devote to helping develop a body that would help get out the word of SEMPO and what its mission is to accomplish and that is to create more exposure for us so that the media and advertising agencies would take us seriously and especially give us some rationalle for increasing our rates to what interactive agencies charge to top tier clients.

Granted, SEO today is still a very young industry and as Mike speculates, a good percentage of the 'players' in this field are single consultants or micro firms. But I'll tell you what, this industry is changing and for the better. I remember sitting in a site clinic a few years back during SES and seeing the speakers dole out advice to attendees for sites like BobsDonutShop.com and MarysSewingShop.com (examples) and then fast forwarding to Boston 2003 when suddenly people began to take us seriously, when during the site clinic one of the first hands to go up was pointed to for a question and the guy said my site is www.ebay.com. To see the look on the crowds face that we had transcended into corporate America was extemely satisfying especially now when even bigger corporate names are in attendance at our trade shows and wanting to know where to start. I remember sitting at a session during Ad:Tech and watching the girl sitting behind me stand up and ask quite honestly and pointedly that she was new to search and didn't know where to start when directing her marketing people to drive traffic to their web sites. I looked at her name badge and it read "Procter & Gamble".

The world needs more information on search and what we do, to know that we provide a valuable service and for that we can charge what our counterparts in the media world charge. How many of you feel that you deserve to make what your counterparts as media buyers, creative directors or television producers make?

This is why I joined SEMPO. For one, I have patience and please, it is only been a year and during that year, tremendous strides have been made, so many speaking engagements around the world have been listened to by a curious audience (I myself attended and spoke at the little SEMPO meeting held during the Tokyo SES show - paid for out of my own pocket).

Membership has grown, case studies donated, job boards created, RFPs for SEO work by SEMPO members launched, research and surveys completed and for the first half of SEMPO's young life, most of this was done by Barbara and the Board, with a great deal coming out of her own pocket, not to mention the clients she has turned down because of her workload. I have been proud to watch Barbara work tirelessly for the cause, to see her go from conference to conference to one speaking engagement after the next spreading the word with what little she had to work with, especially in the beginning.

I think that it has been a great idea, that great networking community of SEO profesionals has developed and that even in it's infacy, great strides have been made and more to come.

The stipend? Oh please. From what Barbara has done out of her own pocket and the amount of work that she has not had time to service doesnt even compare to the stipend or referrals that she has gotten as a result. She was a successful SEO before SEMPO and certainly didn't kick start SEMPO with the thought of getting a stipend. Oh, and living in the bay area where Barbara maintains her practice is not cheap and the average worker there would have to make more than $78K to live decently.

The Board? I think we'll see more voting in the near future to include the general membership as potential candidates but in the beginning, it was those who volunteered and helped out and it was always a consensus that in the future the board membership would be open for a vote by the membership of SEMPO.

I would like to personally thank the board for their time and vision and the membership for making us what we are today - a trade organization with a future - if you'll let it.

Other organizations have attempted to achieve what SEMPO has accomplished so far but this is the first time that so many SEM firms have rallyed about each other giving out ideas and attempting to help each other out and certainly the first time to garner so much corporate support as sponsors and members including the search engines themselves. Let's give it time folks and if you have an idea or suggestion or just want to help out, please stop by the SEMPO booth during the San Jose SES conference and lets talk. I'll be working the booth on Wednesday from 12-2.

rustybrick

07-28-2004, 12:05 AM

Great post Joseph. Its good to hear a response from the inside.

I am thinking that, maybe, the next step is to hire someone who has experience in building a successful non-profit organization, such as the american marketing association.

Joseph Morin

07-28-2004, 12:13 AM

Agreed and believe me, SEMPO is very open to suggestion and help from its membership and we really do have the best interests at heart for the membership. But you know what? Maybe this is a wake up call and a way to get some truly constuctive feedback on areas of improvement. This is one of the reasons we are having an exhibit booth during the next SES show. I'm hoping a lot of good will come from this show and I for one am excited to part of one of the fastest growing sectors in the Internet.

projectphp

07-28-2004, 01:59 AM

...believe me, SEMPO is very open to suggestion and help from its membership and we really do have the best interests at heart for the membership... get some truly constuctive feedback on areas of improvement.
To be honest, one of the issues with SEMPO that could be improved is that y'all seem to see SEMPO's job as "serving the membership". For any trade organisation to suceed, it isn't the current members that you need to look out for, but the higher purpose of what best serves the industry. E.g. SEMPO should be doing what is in the best interest of the people it aims to represent, not necessarily the people who are currently members.

That may seem like splitting hairs, but it is a vital element of an organisation like this. If SEMPO doesn't serve the industry first, and individual members second, its runs the risk of simply becoming an exclusive club, with a limitted membership geared around perceived benefit.

Some areas in which SEMPO could improve (and remember, you asked for this :)):
1. The website. For people who make a living in marketing websites, the SEMPO site is lacking in a lot of info and marketing stuff. If I were making recomendations as an SEM, I would push for a bit more "pre-sales' information. On the site map, if I click on SEMPO Membership Information & Benefits (http://www.sempo.org/sempo-membership-information.php), I get pricing, sure, but where is the sales copy? Where is the stuff convincing me a SEMPO membership is a great idea? Where is the stuff to convince me my (US)$$$ wont be wasted? I think that stuiff is needed.
2. Clarity of focus and goals, particularly visible ones used as a pre-sales tool. Bill @ cre8 (http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7143&start=105) had a good list of things that would be nice to have live, and some thinmgs that would make membership a bit more attractive to many.

I am sure there are more, but these alone would take a bit of work to implement, and is just my $0.02.

Joseph Morin

07-28-2004, 02:11 AM

Duly noted.

Thanks PHP.

You know this is how it starts. The next thing you know, we'll be on our way to being a world class organization.

I'm passing on your 2 cents to the appropriate channels.

Nacho

07-28-2004, 03:59 AM

I think Mike Grehan has made great valid points that I agree on and puts SEMPO to the challange of being a better organization. And there are other comments that I disagree. One of them, Barry's (rustybrick) initiative to start this thread and discussion on paying a salary to a professional executing real live tasks for SEMPO and not just giving opinions of what should or should not be done for the industry and members.

I am a member, volunteer and assist the board at SEMPO in whatever way I can for the benefit of the members and SEM industry. I am also a very close friend to Barbara and know how much time and energy she has given to SEMPO. I don't know how she does it, but it's almost like another full-time job for her. Again, NOT PART-TIME as many people think, but full-time not measured in hours, but results and actions.

In my opinion, I don't think you need to ask her for a resignation to put her to the test. I don't believe that! I just think that there is a job that needs to be done on a full-time basis giving SEMPO more attention that it needs and that can be ANYONE the organization sees fit. Especially at the experience level that SEMPO needs, so you can't just go to Monster.com and pick out the best non-profit ex-president of whatevercharity.org. You need someone that can be at eye-level with the other board members and say, "get off your butt and get to work, there are serious issues that our members need to be addressed." However, I do see the large "conflict of interest" that has arise this entire topic to discussion with Barbara stepping up to the plate for our organization once again.

I honestly believe that if SEMPO needs a full time officer who executes ideas into actions (or as the name calls it "chief executive officer") that the organization is willing to justify $78,000 for it, the go out and find that person using all human resource methods “by the book”. Then IF there is NO professional out there that really fits the position better than Barbara and she is willing to do it. Then, I see it as purely ethical. I agree with Elizabeth, non-profit organizations are not made for a free working environment to save the world. They too have financial statements and balance sheets to declare with their members and Uncle Sam.

I also believe that a board that is elected by the members will be a good thing. Something that was not possible back in summer of 2003, because there were really no members available. Now, that’s a different story. I will vote to keep Barbara as president. I will vote “agreed” for the board to go out and find the most suitable professional to run the organization at a monetary cost. Whoever that professional is, I know that my board did the best it could to place the ideal candidate. I also wish that my board examines Mike Grehan's letter very carefully to address many opportunities to make SEMPO a better organization for its members and the SEM industry.

Saludos,

Nacho

Marcia

07-28-2004, 11:31 AM

Whoaa, hold it, hold it! Hit the brakes, and stop the train! This train of thought can't just slip by, it needs to be clarified and dealt with.

As for SEMPO, they have the right to run their business the way they choose to better the organizations look and impression on people, if MS.Coll can deliver this outline with good conversions then, yes, the fee paid to her is justified in SEMPO's mind

There is a world of difference between a business and a non-profit organization. Conversions relates to converting prospective customers to sales - that's how a business operates. An organization doesn't convert customers, an organization's membership base grows and they accomplish the stated goals of the organization.

As any business, their decisions are hopefully made from proper direction, It is always hard for small organizations to add a second "pipe" to thier business model/plan when it looks like the "damn" is going to bust...so to speak

SEMPO is not supposed to be a business. Business models and plans are blueprints to make profits - for a profit-making company. That is not applicable to a non-profit organization. The "plan" of an organization is to clearly state exactly what their measurable goals are, and to clearly map out how those goals will be accomplished.

Converting prospects to become paying members of a non-profit organization is no measure of reaching an organization's goals or its success, regardless of how effective the sales presentations or how much revenue is generated.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 12:09 PM

There is a world of difference between a business and a non-profit organization. Conversions relates to converting prospective customers to sales - that's how a business operates. An organization doesn't convert customers, an organization's membership base grows and they accomplish the stated goals of the organization..
I agree but a non-profit organization relies upon donations of time or money, or both. Lets remember that its non-profit and that doesnt equate to non-cost. Profit is above the fold and cost must be returned for the ones involved, whats a price to set for that...thats up to SEMPO. If you dont like the cost structure of the organization then dont join, thats where they retain the money to run non-profit. I think most people can make a difference between non-profit once they see our hear of money people are paid for there time, its still a cost

SEMPO is not supposed to be a business. Business models and plans are blueprints to make profits - for a profit-making company. That is not applicable to a non-profit organization. The "plan" of an organization is to clearly state exactly what their measurable goals are, and to clearly map out how those goals will be accomplished...
all organizations that run non-profit or for profit, executed properly must have a business plan and or a marketing plan to raise interest within a community
Should that come with a cost ? Depends on the plans and direction the organization wants to take.TO be a non-profit organization that is successful , you must agree that a cost factor must be measured to see if the non-profit organization will have a life span and included in that life span it will need to have exposure delivered, hows is that obtained...once again thats up to SEMPO

Converting prospects to become paying members of a non-profit organization is no measure of reaching an organization's goals or its success, regardless of how effective the sales presentations or how much revenue is generated.
SEMPO could easily say that cost is a factor of "Brand or Service" exposure to allow individuals the awareness that the offering is available. If SEMPO wants to come out as an "industry standard" (which is still debatable) word of mouth within our community will not be enough. Hopefully when SEMPO reaches a point with SEO/SEM awareness is high they will be able to . Money aside, if these professionals want to run this organization properly they already know the cost factor how they deal with that cost factor is totally their call. And who really cares what MS.Coll makes, better it go to her, one that has experience and knows how to run its marketing plan.

If SEMPO ran a PPC campaign for 10,000k would people still complain since its generating service awareness, I dont think so but as soon as it lands in someones hands it becomes questionable. Im sure MS.Coll service and input will go far beyond that of a PPC campaign.

Bottom line here ( for the sake of debate) is that if a non-profit organization
says " donate 100.00 for services and information to help us get our word out,that 100.00 might only equate to 60.00 since the other 40.00 has gone to cost. If non-profit organizations did everything at cost well guess what, they wont be around long enough to stay alive and offer a service

Should SEMPO be over-hauled, thats not for me to say, Im not a memeber
That should be left to the membership to decide for a review and if its justified the membership should be involved to get another plan to action and i am sure they will find a cost behind it, be it time or money

Cheers

bethabernathy

07-28-2004, 01:25 PM

Hi There - I was at last year's SEW Conference and those booths don't seem like an adequate place to get together and discuss Sempo's business plan. I did notice that if you join Sempo you could get into their private meeting:

http://www.jupiterevents.com/sew/summer04/specialevents.html

I am sure the members of Sempo have good intentions and I am absolutely sure that the work to attempt to get the organization up and running would be very time consuming. Although, I do think they might work just a tad bit harder on their image which, unfortunately, does look alot about self promotion and money gauging, even though, this, most likely, is not the case. :)

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-28-2004, 02:04 PM

I still agree with NFFC - imho, the company I used to work for got cheated, and their $5K contribution didn't get them squat. Would have been better spent on algo research, or a for a few business wire releases promoting themselves, or PPC, or any other marketing activity that can show a return.

If we're going to have an org that supports SEO / SEM activity, it seems ludicrous to have SEs as sponsors...as Google listed on their S1 SEC filing that one of the main threats to their SEM business is the SEO folks.

For those that ain't read it yet - go read it. Now, given that SEO is a massive threat to Google's business...why would they sponsor an org that spreads SEO, the biggest threat to their business on the planet?

They wouldn't, and that's why it's SEM, etc - and not SEOPO. A couple of guys over @ webmasterworld & I talked about founding "JUMBO" about 9 months ago...;) Jeremy's Ultra Marketing Bulls$!^ Organization.

Many folks, imho, are confused, and need to be better informed: SEMPO will never support / promote SEO as long as the entities that sponsor it now continue to do so. And that is what a LOT of people believed it would do.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 02:10 PM

If we're going to have an org that supports SEO / SEM activity, it seems ludicrous to have SEs as sponsors...continue to do so.
I agree 100% , well said

:)

cheers

rcjordan

07-28-2004, 02:23 PM

I run a non-profit of my own, have for over 10 years now. We are required to make public (literally to anyone off the street that requests it) detailed financial information. IRS complaince rules dictate this, though it may vary a bit by type of non-profit structure. So, it shouldn't be all that hard to get SEMPO's financial records if anyone is really that interested.

Before making any sort of contribution, commitment, or membership to a non-profit, the prudent thing to do is to determine what percentage of income goes to administrative and promotion/marketing expenses vs. spending on the "stated goal" of the organization. When digging around, it's not uncommon to find very high percentages (I've seen as high as 95%) being used to keep the organization in the business of perpetuating the bureaucracy rather than funding the goal itself.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 02:24 PM

> they need the bulk of the SEO's behind them, or at least those that can shout loudest.
I have been following NFFC's posting through this thread and i think the nail was hit right on the head with the above statement

Kudos, NFFC

cheers

WC

Marcia

07-28-2004, 03:21 PM

First off, I've personally attempted to take a very neutral stance on this topic so that objective observation can remain unclouded and realistic. This is part of that reality

Sometimes it costs money to make money, and offer a service that is trying to become an industry standard does take alot of time and money
For one, while financial solvency is necessary - what's trying to be conveyed is the distinction between the concepts and purposes related to a non-profit as opposed to a "business." The plain fact is that a non-profit organization is not supposed to make money.

I hate quoting myself, but this bears repeating

The "plan" of an organization is to clearly state exactly what their measurable goals are, and to clearly map out how those goals will be accomplished.
Which is simply pointing out that it isn't the acquisition of members or the accrual of capital that's the measure of progress, but accomplishments demonstrating tangiible achievement of the intended goals.

Instead of hearing posts like "is cloaking bad " do meta tags work? and all the other negative information surrounding SEO, at least SEMPO seems to be trying to bring it into the over deserved attention it needs
Bring it over to whom? Who will the message be reaching, and by what means? I believe both of the above points are part of what's behind what Mike Grehan is addressing.

Part of the "who" can be seen by reading through this discussion again:

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=429

>>> they need the bulk of the SEO's behind them, or at least those that can shout loudest. <<<

No disagreement with that. That's why that discussion about words is a lot more pertinent that it would appear from just skimming over the surface.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 03:57 PM

First off, I've personally attempted to take a very neutral stance on this topic so that objective observation can remain unclouded and realistic. This is part of that reality.
So have I, I think we just have different opinions, Thanks SEW for that :)

For one, while financial solvency is necessary. -
We agree on that ...who defines it, is either going to be SEMPO or their signed up members?And whats the cost to that? who defines it? As long as it bringings the importance of SEO/SEM marketing into a full recognized marketing plan and not just an add value added sale, to prospective clients for all the price is still irrelevant..[/QUOTE]Thanks for pointing out this link, good read, as i went through it again

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=429

Cheers WC

bethabernathy

07-28-2004, 05:01 PM

Hi There - I was just wondering (I have no idea on this) are non profit organizations required to hold any sort of public meetings? I would think that Sempo's private meeting at the conference in San Jose would be a great opportunity for them to hold an open meeting related to their goals and objectives. It could give everyone an opportunity to discuss industry standards and give Sempo the opportunity to explain what their plans in the next year will be related to this:

"SEMPO is a non-profit professional association working to increase awareness and promote the value of Search Engine Marketing worldwide."

rcjordan

07-28-2004, 05:44 PM

>are non profit organizations required to hold any sort of public meetings?

Mine is required to make the corporate minutes available and to advertise annually (local newspaper legal classified) that they are open to the public (by stopping by the corporate offices). That's about it, we do not have to have public meetings.

massa

07-28-2004, 05:50 PM

I would love to see SEMPO, or WAIM or any one of about a half dozen other SEO industry association wannabes make it. I'm trying to help and hope my statments are taken that way.

Salary
The stink is not because someone is getting paid or if someone is qualified or if someone is getting results. The doubt is cast because of lack of accountablility. A salary without stated objectives and numbers that can be quantified is not logical and will not fly for anyone other than possibly the ones getting the salary. At least not without some really good public relations. Which brings up a second point.

Sempo has far too many people saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong people in the wrong place. You are illustrating in living color that sometimes it is better to remain silent and have the world wonder at your true abilities than to speak and remove all doubt.

I predict that if, as an organization, you do not STOP talking without knowing the objective for what you are saying and most importantly have other people STOP talking for you trying to help, this PR nightmare, all started by one man's logical, unemotional observation, will destroy you.

My unasked for advice is, if you have a PR guy, USE him for Christ's sake. If not, let the net deal with this topic anyway it likes until it blows over.

Best of luck to you and please remember I'm trying to help in my own small way. I just happen to have a little experience with internet public relations and dealing with negative opinions being expressed in forums.

searchengineblog.com

07-28-2004, 08:20 PM

A SEMPO press release? http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb144487.htm

Look at the "movers & shakers" in the search industry. Hmmm....

massa

07-28-2004, 08:50 PM

Ahhh, quite a difference from going back and forth in forums huh? Good for you Sempo.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 09:10 PM

Sempo has far too many people saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong people in the wrong place. You are illustrating in living color that sometimes it is better to remain silent and have the world wonder at your true abilities than to speak and remove all doubt.

I predict that if, as an organization, you do not STOP talking without knowing the objective for what you are saying and most importantly have other people STOP talking for you trying to help, this PR nightmare, all started by one man's logical, unemotional observation, will destroy you..
VERY WELL SAID

Cheers WC
:D

NFFC

07-28-2004, 09:38 PM

>A SEMPO press release? http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb144487.htm

I would have gone with slightly higher KWD in the body text, although with 12 repetitions of "Coll" already it may have made the copy less compelling.

Jill Whalen

07-28-2004, 09:45 PM

My unasked for advice is, if you have a PR guy, USE him for Christ's sake.

Ahh...it's always gotta come back to PR with you, eh Bob? hehehehe ;)

fathom

07-29-2004, 01:39 AM

Salary
The stink is not because someone is getting paid or if someone is qualified or if someone is getting results. The doubt is cast because of lack of accountablility. A salary without stated objectives and numbers that can be quantified is not logical and will not fly for anyone other than possibly the ones getting the salary. At least not without some really good public relations. Which brings up a second point.

Sempo has far too many people saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong people in the wrong place. You are illustrating in living color that sometimes it is better to remain silent and have the world wonder at your true abilities than to speak and remove all doubt.

I predict that if, as an organization, you do not STOP talking without knowing the objective for what you are saying and most importantly have other people STOP talking for you trying to help, this PR nightmare, all started by one man's logical, unemotional observation, will destroy you.

My unasked for advice is, if you have a PR guy, USE him for Christ's sake. If not, let the net deal with this topic anyway it likes until it blows over.

Best of luck to you and please remember I'm trying to help in my own small way. I just happen to have a little experience with internet public relations and dealing with negative opinions being expressed in forums.

Aside from the drama - I would think this is a good thing.

I also assume the stipend is of the "position" and not the person... thus the "position" will have accountability... the fact that there is likely limited accountability now does not mean the status quo will remain.

I also find it interesting that the loudest voices for "change" and "accountability" are also the same voices that "don't seem to want it".

Changing a whole industry (supposedly for the betterment of the industry and clientele of the industry) isn't going to happen overnight, or with but a few people involved.

Will the advocators be duly compensated - I'm sure they will... just like the ney sayers won't as they tend not to be prepared to except any accountability beyond their own ideals.

Will it work? Well - that's is a future objective... and if you believe you can be more accountable than Barbara - I'd say advocate for the seat... and change the whole industry in one big swoop! :-)

Unfortuately, change happens in baby steps, and I still believe they are going in the right direction.

NOTE: I am still not a member of SEMPO but I do follow it, and support it... I believe if the second year makes advances beyond the first year... it will be worth every penny.

searchengineblog.com

07-29-2004, 01:55 AM

AussieWebmaster

07-29-2004, 02:31 AM

Up front I am not a member yet... though intend on joining as an inhouse SEM - paying out of my own pocket as a donation of support. I belive there may be concern with the current situation but from all I have read here and on the site (in particular: http://www.sempo.org/faq.php#mission ) I see no wrong doing.

If everyone who is complaining is a member then an election would reflect the majority's opinion.

The organization does not to answer to anyone but its members. All new organizations start with a board who step up to help at the outset. Some do as Danny did and act in an interim capacity... though they all eventually have a vote by members to choose a board.

Having the support of SEs and other industry ancilliary makes sense to me. They gain from improved perception of our industry also.

That companies are tracking links on the site only makes sense... hell don't we try and let people know that tracking is an esstential part of this industry.

Whatever the payment is not anything extraordinary... most people on non-profits are getting paid... it is about getting the goals achieved.. hell most fundraisers for non-profits get a good percentage of the donations they bring in... doing comparisons of income are foolish... people who have the skills to organize and build membership etc. are generally not working for minimum wage.

Obviously this needed to be discussed but how about we let the current members work it out and those who are not part of the organization stop criticizing for the sake of controversy.

AussieWebmaster

07-29-2004, 02:35 AM

fathom

07-29-2004, 02:46 AM

as Google listed on their S1 SEC filing that one of the main threats to their SEM business is the SEO folks.

For those that ain't read it yet - go read it. Now, given that SEO is a massive threat to Google's business...why would they sponsor an org that spreads SEO, the biggest threat to their business on the planet?

While a bit off-topic; I did read this, and saw specifically Yahoo and MSN as main threats, and broadly defined other SE's, ISP's (e.g. sympatico IPS bundles with MSN) and IA's because of bundling potential against Adwords etc. but I never saw specifically SEM/SEO or any other referred Acronym etc.

Can you add a URL - extremely interested?

andrewgoodman

07-29-2004, 03:15 AM

The problem is that it's all very well to say how accountable SEMPO is, how hard working people are, how advances are being made, and they may well be, but it must be seen to be done.

I sense that the SEM community aren't rallying behind SEMPO because they can't see much being done. There appears to be very little in the way of communication, which is odd for a professional marketing organisation.

And probably, truth be told, is that those in the SEM community are as clever as they come, and they know that their "representatives" are also competitors. More troubling still, they might very well be creating power structures that link several competitors together, while shutting out non-"Circle" members. The language of SEMPO Circles and so forth only serves to fuel this kind of speculation.

If the organization had a history that made you feel confident that board members and the Director would predictably rotate in and out and genuinely perform a service role in the industry, it would be different.

For now, SEMPO is very closely associated with a particularly founding group. They are working hard, but, if you're in the SEO biz, you know what it's like. People have interests. They're tough competitors and many didn't stay strong in this biz by being particularly nice. So do you want to be forced into deciding whether to give that person $250 or $5,000 of your cash? Why not scale the ambition back and make it $99 at first?

And has there ever been any open discussion about why corporate sponsorships are set so high? I suppose the answer I might get is "we're getting Overture's money so we can promote ourselves, dumbass." Does sound like a great deal, doesn't it? Except I don't want Overture's money (at least not that much of it). I already enjoy their lovely sponsored events at SES, but as for them putting money into helping promote the industry, good idea in general, but based on what principle that we could apply fairly to other potential sponsors... and in relationship to ordinary members?

At the SEMPO dinner in Toronto I certainly liked the food and drink, and enjoyed sitting near a nice Overture person who played an instrumental role in paying for that, but what was the external purpose of that meeting, one wonders? SEMPO funds being spent, truth be told, to solidify support for SEMPO itself, seems rather circular.

If Ov. wants to buy me a steak, why don't they just start an advocacy group called Ovpo, charge me $125, and let me pick the restaurant? No, really, I mean it.

Anyway, the various sponsorship levels is just one example of moving too fast. A rep from one larger company who declined the offer of membership at the nosebleed level stated that s/he was "offended" at the amount. Why was this new group started up by visible people in the SEM service industry asking for so much money? Some companies, like Overture, have been very generous. Others are simply more cost-conscious. And when you put people on the spot like that, it raises questions, ruffles feathers, etc.

Chris_D

07-29-2004, 04:34 AM

As a SEMPO member, I feel its pretty P*&& poor that I get to read of the decision to pay Barbara $78K on a public forum.

This isn't about the money. It isn't about whether or not Barbara 'deserves' it. Its just about a "professional organisation" keeping it's membership informed of its actions & decisions.

I have had emails from SEMPO on 21 July, 2 July, and 21 May - NONE of which either mentioned this decision, or even alluded to discussion of the concept. In fact - I can't actually find any published minutes of any Directors meetings - except for an excel overview summary of a P&L to April 2004. No meeting minutes.

If SEMPO intends to be an INTERNATIONAL body representing the SEO/SEM industry, then they'd better grasp the fact that sending AUSTRALIAN members invitations to USA physical meetings - but failing to follow up with minutes of those meetings (either email, or on the website in teh members area) - doesn't really keep the membership in the picture.

Maybe SEMPO should put a link on the sempo home page "Find out what's happening inside SEMPO at SEWForums".

Incubator

07-29-2004, 10:34 AM

After reading a few of these great posts it seems to me that SEMPO really has to show or re-focus thier "value proposition" to the members that are currently signed up.

Cheers

Wc

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 10:46 AM

I'll say it again, I really think they need someone from the outside to make it work. Pay them 50 - 250k, I am a member, I am for that. As long as they have proven non-profit (lobbying, promotion, etc.) experience.

thejenn

07-29-2004, 11:41 AM

A SEMPO circle member respondes in a Press Release today...

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/7/emw145221.htm

Some snippets...

“Mike seems like a good guy and a very knowledgeable search pro,” said John Sanchez, President and CEO of Zunch Communications, a Circle Member of SEMPO, “But I think some of his questions about what SEMPO is doing with his membership dues were a little harsh and not necessarily founded in truth. This organization is just one year old, and Mike, by his own words, chose not to join at first, believing that SEMPO would be no different from other do-nothing professional organizations. When you come at us from a negative attitude to begin with, it won‘t be hard to find fault with what we’re doing.”

"...I think Mr. Grehan’s point about there not being a board member overseeing the UK is one we need to look at. As well, Mike’s call to have SEMPO become more of an ethics-standards enforcer and certification outlet are well taken. If Mike wants to be that UK board member or in some other way contribute to our efforts, perhaps he should come to the table and stop standing near the wall. Maybe we’ll see him in San Jose and we can talk it through.”

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 11:53 AM

Has anyone seen, in any forum, a direct answer by SEMPO to 'The $78,000 Question?' Did SEMPO approve this stipend? (Whether Coll has actually drawn down on it yet isn't really the question.) I've seen one post that seemed to confirm it --but, like the rest, vague. It'd be nice to put that part of Mike's challenge to rest.

thejenn

07-29-2004, 11:56 AM

I was at that first meeting to get the idea of SEMPO off the ground back in March of 2003. My main point to Ms. Coll and others running the meeting at that time was this:

If you plan to represent the industry and to help educate businesses in the importance of SEO/SEM, then you need to work with the people that are out there in the trenches already doing just that. For the most part, those people are the small, one-man band shops, not the huge SEM firms that are already working with Fortune 100 companies. It's the people explaining the concept of SEM and charging a small business client a few thousand dollars and then turning around and producting five times that in revenue. THOSE are the people that are educating every day businesses about the value of SEM.

At that first meeting, membership levels were being talked about in the range of $1000, or even $500. (Yes, I'm aware that the base level has since been lowered) Nonetheless, that's a lot of money to a small business owner, especially one that is focused on ROI. What is the ROI on a SEMPO membership for a small SEO shop in a small town? Is SEMPO going to show up in Pittsburgh, Toledo, Amarillo or Cheyenne to convince the local businesses that they need to use SEM services? No, the folks that are already working there are going to do the local networking and educating of the businesses in that area.

Consider also how many SEO/SEMs simply don't have the funds to even attend an SES and therefore a SEMPO meeting. Isn't it possible that the folks that made it to those meetings didn't really represent the heart of the industry, but instead represented the muscle? Now, muscle is good for getting things done, Danny, Jill, Bruce and other well-recognized names have done an awful lot for this industry when it comes to press...there's no denying that. But an organization that aims to represent an industry needs to be made up of a wide range of people from within that industry.

My second, and perhaps greater concern was the problems that would arise over time if SEMPO refused to put any type of ethical requirement on membership. Let's put aside the black hat, white hat issue...as we all know that argument goes nowhere. There are other ways of providing a code of ethic...the easiest of which is "full disclosure." In other words, if you use a method that could cause problems for your client, you need to fully explain the risks to your client and let them make the decision to move forward with those techniques. That's not a lot to ask of a company, but it does give a ground level ethical requirement to members.

As it stands now, here's what I see potentially happening. SEMPO was designed to represent the industry, to be a voice, to be quoted in the media, etc... We all remember the Wall Street Journal article last year about the woman who hired an SEM firm that ended up getting her banned from the engines. Well...what if that firm was a member of SEMPO? How would that make SEMPO and the SEM industry look to the outside world? IMHO, not very good...

SEMPO is based on good ideas and I agree that we need an organization for this industry...but thus far, I honestly don't believe that things have come about the way they should, nor do I believe that they are currently heading in a direction that will solve the problems above. If SEMPO can iron out some issues and make some changes, I'll be the first in line with my check to join. Until then, I'll keep plugging away in the forums, on Search Engine Guide, and in little old Columbus, Ohio to spread the word about SEO that old-fashioned way.

andrewgoodman

07-29-2004, 12:51 PM

Possibly a better way forward would be for leading members of the SEM community (even if this is in part through a more modestly-funded SEMPO, which does not take hefty 'Circle' payments that imply special access for friends) to do more to further their roles within existing marketing professional associations.

I don't know that much about the DMA, or the IAB, etc etc. Nor about international web standards councils, and more technically oriented working groups around the world. But taking our place more effectively within those types of organizations seems constructive in spite of their failings. The world is going to see the value of SEM anyway, so this attitude that we need to be out there crowing about "our" industry may be misplaced. We might be better off working -- or learning to work -- within organizational structures that have stood the test of time.

If that's already happening, then great. That would mean we're moving in the right direction. But there seem to be too many distractions already. SEMPO should not have a de facto hierarchy of membership so soon. It should not be acting as a referral service. A list of all members with brief bios and accomplishments, great. Referring clients to specific Circle members? Come on. This conflates the business of SEMPO with the business of SEMPO insiders.

SEM has champions all over the place. For all the 'hurt' felt by some SEO's when Seth Godin critiqued the business, what was missed was the fact that this permission marketing (and other types of marketing) "guru" -- who basically dislikes most forms of marketing and advertising today -- loves this stuff and thinks that SEM is one of the few remaining effective marketing methods. To continue attracting this type of favorable attention from all over the place, we don't have to be LOUD, we just have to continue to show the world the numbers. Some of the numbers are just too difficult to argue with. I'm coming out with a book in the fall, and other members of the industry have already done so. From what I can see on Amazon, Building Your Business with Google for Dummies by Brad Hill, as well as Shari Thurow's and Cat Seda's books, are selling very well, a nice start in getting the word out about the respectable side of our business. There are also studies released by companies like JupiterMedia. These sources contain numbers and factual arguments that are instrumental in documenting the effectiveness of SEM. We are not fighting against a sceptical world. We are watching the business world slowly wake up to the reality. So if SEMPO is premised on the need to break through a sea of ignorance, I believe that premise is wrong. Think about the language many of our clients, and many working developers in corporate settings use today -- landing pages, cost per acquisition, granularity, etc. -- the world *is* learning and learning fast. Search Engine Strategies conferences are breaking records every time they convene and new shows are popping up every year.

SEMPO -- in a slightly more modest role and one that reaches out and works more within existing structures -- could really play a supportive role for its membership.

But regardless of what SEMPO does, every individual SEM professional is a potential ambassador for the field. What SEMPO (and other bodies and initiatives) can do is to centralize and subsidize some of the effort of co-ordinating and disseminating SEM-friendly research. From this, quiet, confident advocacy can follow.

SEMPO can *leverage* existing, emerging work/stats made possible by companies like NetIQ, Hitbox, Clicktracks, comScore, etc. Again, the effort here is one that is more along the lines of "working with" as opposed to reinventing the wheel and/or making a big deal about SEMPO's unique or original contribution.

As such a solid salary in the $50-100,000 range makes sense for a full time person, but with some others, I tend to think that the Director should be a professional brought in from outside who relishes organizational development of this type -- someone who can live on $75,000-100k a year and who does not feel like they're taking a pay cut or making a sacrifice to do this job. (If the position is made part-time, then even this salary level is excessive. For a half-time position $50k would be fine.) Is it absolutely necessary to have this organization located in the Bay Area? Some of our industry's leading lights have left California as a lifestyle decision. Probably 20% of the California-based Google staff will leave the area if they can cash out. Isn't that the point of IP, Wi-Fi, and innovative business models? We don't need to work in Manhattan or Mountain View or commute to Bay Street if it costs too much to do so? The acquisitions editor who is helping me on my book (the publisher is based in San Francisco) usually works from her home with a dog and kids in Utah. So many of the leading SEM's live in places like the Rocky Mountains and have photos of themselves on their websites wearing fuzzy things and sitting on mountain bikes. Maybe SEMPO should move to the mountains too, so it can chill out a bit. :D

Board members will be geographically dispersed, anyway.

andrewgoodman

07-29-2004, 12:53 PM

And if not the mountains, then DC. That's where the lobbyists live.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 01:31 PM

It would be nice to hear some positive communications about Sempo. I am very interested in finding a way to gather 5K together to get into the circle, although I am a 1 person operation w/2 dogs and my husband and we do live in the mountains.

I would definately have paid the $250 for the entry level membership, but I sent two emails about membership when it opened last year and never got a response. I also personally emailed one member on the board and still no response. :)

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 02:49 PM

Did SEMPO approve this stipend?
I talked with someone today from the board and can confirm that it was approved a few months ago.

This isn't about the money. It isn't about whether or not Barbara 'deserves' it. Its just about a "professional organisation" keeping it's membership informed of its actions & decisions.

I agree entirely. This is the heart of the matter and the issue I'm most concerned with. Decisions have been made and the members haven't been kept informed of them. Everyone who is a member has a fair gripe about that.

What I'd suggest is this. If you are a member of SEMPO, make your voice heard at the meeting next week, if you can attend. Be prepared to say where you'd like the organization to go next, what you want it do -- and most important, perhaps be ready to step up to make it happen as part of a committee. If you can't attend, then get in contact with someone who can to pass along those concerns and comments.

This is all assuming you are a member of SEMPO and see a value in the organization growing and maturing.

As for the board, as I said earlier, I don't think the solution is to have them all resign at once as Mike suggested (http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8234&st=30&#entry85792) in his article and again over at Jill's forum. It's not practical for two reasons.

First, the entire SEMPO membership will not be at the meeting. They deserve some notice and opportunity to vote, especially given how a big gripe is that they haven't had an opportunity to vote on new board members.

Second, let's assume the entire board is voted off in a fit of rage and upset. Who takes over? An immediate vote to name new people from the audience? And who transitions them in?

Instead, I do think it would be good for the board to over the course of the next six months or so be put up for election in stages. Perhaps half the existing seats might be put to a vote in the near future, with the membership having proper notice and the ability for new candidates and existing board members to explain their positions. Then you'd do the same with the remaining half a bit further down, so help ensure an orderly transition if indeed a transition is going to happen.

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 03:12 PM

>confirm that it was approved a few months ago.

Thanks Danny. A date would be helpful. Even if you can only narrow it to the month.

qwerty

07-29-2004, 03:39 PM

As for the board, as I said earlier, I don't think the solution is to have them all resign at once as Mike suggested in his article and again over at Jill's forum. It's not practical for two reasons.

First, the entire SEMPO membership will not be at the meeting. They deserve some notice and opportunity to vote, especially given how a big gripe is that they haven't had an opportunity to vote on new board members.

Second, let's assume the entire board is voted off in a fit of rage and upset. Who takes over? An immediate vote to name new people from the audience? And who transitions them in?
I'm not a member, so my opinion doesn't count for much, but it seems to me that the board should declare that elections will be held and set a time for them. Those among them who want to keep their positions will have the opportunity to say so. That doesn't mean they've quit, and that they should leave the organization to flounder until they're replaced.

And of course the vote shouldn't be held right then and there. They should take a couple of months to allow others to declare their interest in the positions, to campaign for them, and then to have a vote via their web site.

donut

07-29-2004, 04:03 PM

It does explain the new BMW convertible Barbara has been bragging about. :D

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 04:26 PM

I know that it takes alot of time to get a business up and running. Unless you are independently wealthy it seems like it would be a real drain to get a non profit organization going. So I think compensation is not a bad thing. Although I am a little unclear as to why Webmama herself stated (this is in March):

"SEMPO is a non-profit 501(c)3 organization. The Board of Directors have received no financial compensation for their volunteer position on the board of SEMPO.

Barbara C. Coll; CEO, WebMama.com Inc.; President & Chairperson of the Board, SEMPO Inc. "

See:
http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=59618#59618
(this was brought up back on the 1st page of this thread).

Here is another good one, back in mid June, I called Webmama's office to see about getting some help with a difficult client. The woman I spoke with said that Barbara was way too busy with her speaking circuit and vacation plans to accept any new work at this time. Sorry if I am getting off point. :)

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 04:32 PM

Her next post in that thread (emphasis mine):

"We do have some paid subcontractors like admins, webmasters, accountants, lawyers, PR, program managers, etc. We may have a paid executive position one day. I don't expect the Board to ever be given money for their 100s of hours of work (and in my case 600-700 hours) on SEMPO or for the hours and hours of time provided by their employees."

This was late March. Which is why I asked Danny to clarify the date the stipend was approved.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 04:40 PM

This was late March. Which is why I asked Danny to clarify the date the stipend was approved
I don't know the exact date, sorry. If it was before that statement, obviously very bad. If it was after that statement, still doesn't look good given the "I don't expect..." comment. But things do change. Maybe it was decided that they did need to have a paid position, and she'd be paid as filling the role until someone was found down the line. I honestly don't know, don't have those type of details.

I think many are in agreement that they don't mind SEMPO having paid staff, but that the members should have been informed of this and of the other developments.

By the way, there's been good discussion on the topic all across the various forums. Peter's got a good roundup with key links (http://www.searchengineblog.com/archives/2004_07_01_archive.html#109106028891182585) here.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 04:46 PM

Well with 600-700 hours you'd think I could get a response to my emails related to membership last year. I would like to join, although I have been trying to find out the benefit, short of a listing on the site. Seems a little pricey for $299 a year considering at the executive level my site would probably never be found. I did a search using what I think are the search terms they are going for on the executive page and they didn't list anywhere on the first two pages of Google. ;)

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 04:57 PM

Danny, I'll be uncharacteristically blunt. I've (been sent to) and read most of the posts out there. Though everybody but Google's short-order cook was trotted out to wave the look-what-Sempo's-accomplished flag in the threads, the $78,000 Question was always side-stepped. This performance alone raised my interest. The long and the short of it is that this smells and it now appears that the vast majority of what Mike says was dead-on target.

Now, the date shouldn't be hard to find. Major actions by the board of a non-profit, such as the declaration of a significant payroll addition, should be recorded in the corporate minutes. Any of the SEMPO board members want to just flip back through the minutes and post a date?

NFFC

07-29-2004, 04:57 PM

Strange, so ultimately SEMPOGATE all comes down to:

What did the president know and when did she know it?

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 05:15 PM

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 05:21 PM

Now, the date shouldn't be hard to find.
To be clear, I'm not on the board of directors. I'm sure you are exactly right -- the date would be easy to find. But I don't have access to SEMPO records or anything like that. I was simply talking to one of the board members earlier today and asked if the stipend situation was indeed true. I was told it was and that it happened a few months ago. But only one of the actual board members can give you that date. Hopefully, one of them will do so.

As for what Mike's saying being on target, I didn't doubt the stipend information. It was pretty specific and would have been really unusual to make that fact without some pretty firm knowledge.

Joseph Morin

07-29-2004, 05:24 PM

SEMPO article posted today (http://www.mediapost.com/PrintFriend.cfm?articleId=261863)

Nick W

07-29-2004, 05:30 PM

>>SEMPOGATE

NFFC, my thanks for that. Classic!

So where is our barbara then?

Nick

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 05:34 PM

See:
http://fdncenter.org/learn/faqs/html/np_pro_con.html

"Scrutiny by the public: A nonprofit is dedicated to the public interest; therefore, its finances are open to public inspection. The public may obtain copies of a nonprofit organization’s state and federal filings and learn about salaries and other expenditures."

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 05:37 PM

You were clear, Danny, at least to those that knew your advisory position vs. board --I just took the opportunity to press the question. (However, while we're on the subject of the board, it does pique my interest a bit wondering who fed Mike the information.)

A 501-c3 doesn't provide much of a corporate cloak, in fact it's intended to do just the opposite. Here's the text of the legal classified I'm required to publish when I file my 990:

"The annual report of the XXX Foundation for the year ended June 30, 200x, is available at the principle office located at (corporate address here) or at (accounting firm address here) for inspection during regular business hours by any citizen who request it within 180 day hereof."

Since the first year hasn't finished, there may be nothing to see (yet).

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 05:44 PM

However, while we're on the subject of the board, it does pique my interest a bit wondering who fed Mike the information.
He knows several of the board members closely as he said in his original article. My assumption is that he heard this from one of them.

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 05:49 PM

>My assumption is that he heard this from one of them.

Mine, too.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 05:50 PM

"SEMPO is one year old this week. Happy Birthday SEMPO." Dated Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 by Barbara Coll.

What would the date be to be able to request the info?

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-29-2004, 05:56 PM

SEMPO is (if it's near Barbara...) right up the street, so to speak, from where I live.

Be more than happy to barge in on the offices of the accountant (if we can find the name?) & ask for a copy of the financials. ;)

As I've said, though - this org seems 100% about SEM, not SEO...so, imho, it's not my bag but somebody else's deal. For the industry's sake, and becuase this seems like a lot of egg on somebody's face...I hate that what was supposed to be a "good thing" has degenerated (imho) into the proverbial PR nightmare.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 05:57 PM

Thought it might also be useful to again focus on what the scandals are in this whole thing:

1) Europe board member being appointed. I think I read elsewhere that Barbara did say that the board would itself appoint a European board member. So no scandal in that. Issue is was someone from Italy? As I said earlier, I doubt the board is going to have someone from every country that SEMPO has members. If so, then you've got a board of over 100 people.

2) Barbara being paid. Big issue if this happened before her public statement that it wasn't happening. Medium issue if it happened after that statement because she indicated she doubted the board would ever be paid -- but things do change. Big issue in that the members weren't told. The board probably has the complete right to do this. Mike at Jill's forum talked of acting "unconstitutionally." Actually, I would guess that the founding documents for SEMPO give the board members the right to do this. But not keeping the members informed of major actions like this, yep, that's a failure.

3) Board is self-appointed. This wasn't news to the members that joined, or it shouldn't have been. But it is an issue now. The fallout of all this is that the board itself is being called into question. Actual elections will help strengthen the group -- they should be done.

4) Lack of communication. Clearly members don't seem to have been well kept informed. That's got to be fixed.

5) Lack of focus. Clearly many members seem uncertain what SEMPO is doing, where it is heading. It's their organization, so they need to help drive it forward to do what they want.

By the way, 5 is also somewhat applicable to non-members. People outside SEMPO clearly have thoughts on what the group should or should not be doing. But it's the members who've actually stepped up to join and support the group, so it's ultimately up to the members how to drive it along. And the board is accountable to those members.

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 06:01 PM

>date

When is SES/SJ? I don't think any of this will go past that.

Technically, if their fiscal year end is in July they can postpone until November.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 06:02 PM

http://www.sempo.org/sempo-board-of-directors.php

Would it be at the treasurer's office? If so I think that is in S.F. Just a quick 30-40 mins from the upcomming San Jose conference.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 06:07 PM

When is SES/SJ? I don't think any of this will go past that.
Yeah, suffice to say, I think someone will certainly raise this at the meeting and an answer be given. I highly doubt anyone will have to be demanding public records to get that answer. But what will probably be helpful, if it's not already planned, is for the members to be given some type of financial recap on what's been taken in and what's been spent on.

pleeker

07-29-2004, 06:12 PM

He knows several of the board members closely as he said in his original article. My assumption is that he heard this from one of them.

Shall we start calling this person Deep Cloak? ;)

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 06:14 PM

If you're a fan of mud-wrestling, it might be worth $299 membership and airfare/hotel just to attend this SJ meeting.

NFFC

07-29-2004, 06:20 PM

> is for the members to be given some type of financial recap on what's been taken in

That would be a good idea, not just for the members but for all those considering membership. Imho they need to make the info available to everybody.

>and what's been spent on

Keep a close eye out for "transformable conveyance system", thats non-profit speak for a BMW convertible :)

[just joking, honest]

pleeker

07-29-2004, 06:21 PM

5) Lack of focus. Clearly many members seem uncertain what SEMPO is doing, where it is heading. It's their organization, so they need to help drive it forward to do what they want.

By the way, 5 is also somewhat applicable to non-members. People outside SEMPO clearly have thoughts on what the group should or should not be doing. But it's the members who've actually stepped up to join and support the group, so it's ultimately up to the members how to drive it along. And the board is accountable to those members.

True, but the charter says SEMPO exists to promote the industry. Is SEMPO benefitting the industry as a whole? Maybe that's part of what you refer to as "Lack of Focus", but it seems many (members and non) think there has been focus -- but that's it been benefitting the few, not the industry as a whole.

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 06:24 PM

I will make sure to attend the SEMPO members meeting and post a summary here.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 06:28 PM

I just faxed Sempo a letter requesting their annual report. I can't make it to the conference (new puppy) and i'd like to find out the info.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 06:30 PM

The charter says SEMPO exists to promote the industry. Is SEMPO benefitting the industry as a whole? Maybe that's part of what you refer to as "Lack of Focus", but it seems many (members and non) think there has been focus -- but that's it been benefitting the few, not the industry as a whole.
Yes, I did mean it as part of the lack of focus. SEMPO's chartered to help promote SEM, but clearly many in and outside of it don't feel/see that happening. I think that there have been other posts in various places by SEMPO where many things were outlined that have happened -- but it's still a concern that this either isn't registering with some members or if it is, they may not find it to be enough. Or maybe some of them do -- the real test will be at the meeting and shortly after, when members decide if they want to reup.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 06:35 PM

Fax # removed from Sempo. Barbara's site down. Can't find their fax number?

NFFC

07-29-2004, 06:45 PM

>My assumption is that he heard this from one of them.

So, let me get this straight..... One or more of the directors gave rank-and-file member Mike information from a closed door meeting?

It's safe to say that Coll didn't give this information to him. So it seems we have a board that has problems keeping internal matters, well, internal.

Not good, I wouldn't want to have my directors gunning for me.

Even worse, from the "industry" viewpoint we may have a board member[s] who knows things are wrong but lacks, for want of a better word, the balls to speak out.

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 06:57 PM

Let's not stalk anyone please. When SEMPO is ready they will speak up. If they don't then I guess they will fall but I would guess we will hear a response soon.

Again, if they loss the members and supporters then SEMPO is no longer.

There is no reason to stalk or harass anyone, not that you will.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 07:06 PM

No stalking just interested in obtaining a copy of their annual report. It would a good document to read and very important in this industry going forward. :)

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-29-2004, 07:11 PM

>>>There is no reason to stalk or harass anyone, not that you will.

let's not go toss accusations like that around ;) All we're asking for here is *accountability* and - imho, the rest of us 'punters' that have waited on the side lines & not joined...(or been that long a member, as I was a "temporary one")...

we don't want to see the rest of the 'industry' imho, slammed due to the (potentially) self serving, grab for power that (may) have been a large driving force behind the formation of SEMPO.

Wouldn't it be ironic, if the org that was formed to "help" the industry, ended up being the worst PR thing for the industry this year? That would make me ashamed that I didn't try campaigning, against it, harder...

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 07:23 PM

Jeremy, I agree with some of your points. But there are many ways for this to be handled.

AussieWebmaster

07-29-2004, 07:26 PM

This is looking like being the longest thread besides the insights from Orion... guess if we can't get enough advanced semantic theory a good flame works just as well....

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 07:58 PM

I deleted the phone numbers that were posted. Sorry, I felt it was getting too personal. In partcular, the numbers listed were for Barbara's company, not for SEMPO.

This thread -- and this issue -- relates to SEMPO. Anyone who wants to contact SEMPO can find the details easily enough at http://www.sempo.org. Both a telephone number, email addresses and a submittal form are offered. No need to repost those here.

FYI, I don't see a fax number listed at the SEMPO page nor was one listed apparently on July 15, according to the date of the Google cache page.

seobook

07-29-2004, 07:59 PM

This is looking like being the longest thread besides the insights from Orion... guess if we can't get enough advanced semantic theory a good flame works just as well....

I do not think the thread is growing so long just because it is a flame. It is growing long because it is truely relevant information to many people. It is an issue that should be discussed.

I think SEMPO would be smart to include a blog and forum right into the SEMPO site if they really want SEMPO to work...at least that way there is a central location for communication which bridges the tiers and makes the organization appear more transparent and democratic.

searchengineblog.com

07-29-2004, 08:18 PM

I do not think the thread is growing so long just because it is a flame. It is growing long because it is truely relevant information to many people. It is an issue that should be discussed.

Exactly.

The fact that some would consider it a flame shows that perhaps they're not really listening.

SEMPO: Just answer Mikes questions. Don't wait till the conference to do it, most people won't be there.

We have the interweb thingy, remember...

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 08:18 PM

The Sempo org would be a huge undertaking to do it correctly i.e. you would probably have to quit your day job to get it going. I am sure there are very good intentions and again paid positions are certainly acceptable. If it was my undertaking, I would have gotten onto this forum and spoken out right away. I think there are very reasonable concerns here. They simply need to be addressed. Quite simple in my mind.

pleeker

07-29-2004, 08:42 PM

The thing is ... this is not the first time over the past year that SEMPO has been questioned like this. It's happened in each of the other forums I've ever looked at, and the issues this time are mostly the same things people have been questioning all along (with the exception of the $78k issue).

Each time these issues have been raised, someone at SEMPO comes out and says "we're just starting out, it's only our first year, we have done some wonderful things, but we know we need to do better and communicate, and we will, just give us time, etc."

Well, these things have been brought up many times since SEMPO started, but nothing much appears to have changed, as evidenced by Mike G.'s column. And perhaps things are worse now, since it appears one of the board members has tipped Mike G. about the unannounced salary Barbara is taking, and since we don't know the timing of the salary and Barbara's March comments about no one being paid.

So at what point will the board realize things really have to change? The "we're new, give us time" excuses can't go on forever. Maybe Mike G. has it right -- maybe it's time to bring on an executive with experience in building trade organizations, and preferably one experienced in cleaning up messes.

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 08:42 PM

Exactly.

The fact that some would consider it a flame shows that perhaps they're not really listening.

Plus I dont post topics that turn into flames. :D

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-29-2004, 09:00 PM

>>>preferably one experienced in cleaning up messes.

Better to start with a clean bill of health- than start with two black eyes...imho.

AussieWebmaster

07-29-2004, 09:28 PM

searchengineblog.com

07-29-2004, 09:36 PM

Basically others have the right to comment (the beauty of america)

It's the beauty of other places, too ;)

but the ones that have a real right to question actions are the members.

If an industry group is claiming to represent the industry I work in, then I don't need to be a member to comment. They affect me by virtue of their existence. I hope that SEMPO does well, I really do. I'd join if I could see the benefit and felt the numerous issues were being addressed.

That's the problem. Myself, and others, and struggling to see the benefit and get clear answers to simple questions. That isn't a good position to be in when attempting to recruit new members, or convince existing members to renew.

Can SEMPO answer Mike's questions? If not, why not. If so, when?

Brad

07-29-2004, 09:40 PM

How many people involved in this discussion are members of SEMPO? Basically others have the right to comment (the beauty of america) but the ones that have a real right to question actions are the members.

Consider it due diligence.

If SEMPO wants me to pay them my hard earned money, then they should get used to a little scrutiny and some questions before I pull out my check book.

But you are right, if I was already a member, I would be asking a lot harder and more direct questions, I'm sure the others would too.

Jill Whalen

07-29-2004, 09:43 PM

Very good point, Aussie!

Many who aren't members aren't because they had particular gripes with the organization. This simply adds to them, but then they don't have to join!

I am a member. I'm really just waiting to see why they didn't tell members about the stipend. If Barb works as hard at SEMPO as she seems to, then it doesn't seem that weird for her to get paid for it, if the other board members agreed. Apparently they did.

Was it supposed to be a big secret though? Maybe, maybe not. The fact that Mike knew, makes me think it wasn't supposed to even be a secret. Yeah the members weren't informed, but that still doesn't mean it's a secret.

Hopefully, SEMPO will have a press conference or something soon and simply address the issues that have been put forth. Then all those that never liked SEMPO can go on not liking them, and those who joined can decide if we are still happy with our choice of joining...or not.

seobook

07-29-2004, 10:06 PM

Many who aren't members aren't because they had particular gripes with the organization. This simply adds to them, but then they don't have to join!
Its not my gripe or my organization. It is the fact that if you are to represent my industry perhaps you need to convince me that I need to join or that I should support you.

If an industry group is claiming to represent the industry I work in, then I don't need to be a member to comment. They affect me by virtue of their existence.

As I recall Jill you were one of the biggest naysayers at the Boston SES. Something convinced you to join, perhaps we are just wondering why we should.

Was it supposed to be a big secret though? Maybe, maybe not. The fact that Mike knew, makes me think it wasn't supposed to even be a secret. Yeah the members weren't informed, but that still doesn't mean it's a secret.
Yup, but I recall Chris D said

As a SEMPO member, I feel its pretty P*&& poor that I get to read of the decision to pay Barbara $78K on a public forum.

This isn't about the money. It isn't about whether or not Barbara 'deserves' it. Its just about a "professional organisation" keeping it's membership informed of its actions & decisions. ...

Maybe SEMPO should put a link on the sempo home page "Find out what's happening inside SEMPO at SEWForums".

Hopefully, SEMPO will have a press conference or something soon and simply address the issues that have been put forth. Then all those that never liked SEMPO can go on not liking them, and those who joined can decide if we are still happy with our choice of joining...or not.
It is not about liking or not liking. It is about building a community that supports one another for the good of the whole (at least that is what "SEMPO is a non-profit professional association working to increase awareness and promote the value of Search Engine Marketing worldwide." tells me)

Unless of course raise awareness means just getting forum posts. I guess the current actions are doing a good job of that, but then again so did Traffic Power.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 10:06 PM

Like I said, I just want to know more and am very interested in joining if it all makes good business sense, but to date going on 1 year have not received 1 response to any of my questions related to membership. Just weird thats all.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 10:42 PM

OK, I have news passed along to me on behalf of the SEMPO board. Why isn't this coming direct from any of the SEMPO board members? Because they've decided it makes the most sense to address these items directly to the membership itself at the meeting Monday night rather than through the various forums.

Barbara's stipend was approved on May 15 and she began drawing it on that date. She began taking it because she also assumed a second hat, that of acting executive director, in addition to her role as president.

I'm told that this was going to be announced at the meeting Monday even before Mike's article raised the issue. In addition, I'm told these are other points that were planned to be discussed, of items that have been in the works already:

* A search for an experienced executive director is to begin with the goal of having them onboard by December 2004. Barbara will then step down as president and acting executive director and just be chair of the board.

* There were already plans to have the membership nominate and elect a board member by December 2004 - this will be done faster if the board can determine a way to do this.

* The entire board is up for renewal in March 2005 - at that point, the plan is to stagger elections of new board members.

* Financials for the SEMPO year end were posted on the member-only website in April.

* Minutes of all board meetings are available to anyone who asks and SEMPO's seeking a way to put them online in the members area.

New items that were not already on the agenda that have been added in the wake of the article and various forum discussions will include:

* budget spend to date
* income
* future budgets
* accomplishments
* admission of shortcomings with member communication and steps being taken to correct this
* update on a current research project
* update on an upcoming SEM advertising campaign

That's what I've got. I'm sure people have follow up questions. If so, I'd say the most constructive thing is to list what else you'd like to hear, know or have expanded at the meeting Monday night.

Nacho

07-29-2004, 10:50 PM

Thank you Danny :)

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 11:30 PM

I have rewritten this too many times now. I only require a response to my fax which requests a copy of their annual report. I am sorry but I like things in writing and I have requested info on membership for 1 year at the onset with no response. So if you want anyone to look over anything ask me as I have 15 years of experience working for some of the top law firms in the country. I just want documentation which should be readily available from a non-profit entity from anyone. Again, still interested in joining, just do not understand.

Joseph Morin

07-30-2004, 12:00 AM

Beth,

From what i understand, the fax you sent was to the WebMama corporate office, and Danny mentioned that SEMPO doesn't have a fax number listed at the site. I believe Barbara is on her way to the SES conference via Montreal and may be out of pocket as a lot of us travelling to the conference will be over the next several days.

bethabernathy

07-30-2004, 12:16 AM

O.K. this is the last one from me, but the address on B's site and Sempo are the same. Fax the same? I just simply want documentation without having to join a .org that I have requested info from related to membership for over 1 year. I am sure that I will not receive my requested annual report prior to the conference. Sorry to be a thorn.

Nick W

07-30-2004, 03:43 AM

>>I'm told that this was going to be announced at the meeting Monday even before Mike's article raised the issue.

So it was approved and drawn upon on may 15 and they were going to announce it on aug 7

Sounds like damage limitation to me. I've met Barbara, it was memorable to say the least ;)

And if that really is the truth, then it was at the very best, an ill thought out move.

Nick

I, Brian

07-30-2004, 05:16 AM

I'm surprised to read the rather dismissive retort against Mike Grehan. He raised a rather extensive list of very valid concerns.

That SEMPO would seemingly rather belittle Mike first, than address any number of the concerns raised, hardly suggests SEMPO as an organisation worth taking seriously - if it ever was in the first place.

Chris_D

07-30-2004, 07:29 AM

Danny, thanks for relaying the answers from Sempo.

Because they've decided it makes the most sense to address these items directly to the membership itself at the meeting Monday night rather than through the various forums.

I live and work in Sydney Australia. I trust that the Sempo Board will appreciate that I'm really just too busy to 'pop over' to a Sempo meeting in the USA next Monday evening.

As a financial member of Sempo, could I request 2 things please:

1. Will the Sempo Board be providing agendas and minutes of any other Sempo Board meetings? What other decisions have been made (that, by definition, the membership is not aware of?).

2. Why didn't the Board not even mention the 'agenda' for next Mondays meeting in the 3 member emails from SEMPO (21 July, 2 July, and 21 May) - since the decision was made?

This has become a PR disaster for Sempo for one reason - the Board of Sempo has failed to communicate their meeting agendas, minutes, and decisions to their members. If they had - this whole issue would have been a non event.

Its not about Barb; and not about money; its only about communication with the (paid) membership.

bwelford

07-30-2004, 08:57 AM

As a non-profit organization purporting to represent the whole industry, I feel that far too much information is for members only.

So if you want to join, you've got to accept that you're buying a brown paper bag. You hope when you open the bag, you'll like what you find.

Black_Knight

07-30-2004, 10:47 AM

Barbara's stipend was approved on May 15 and she began drawing it on that date. She began taking it because she also assumed a second hat, that of acting executive director, in addition to her role as president.

I'm told that this was going to be announced at the meeting Monday even before Mike's article raised the issue.
Surely it would have been appropriate to raise this matter at the SEMPO meeting in June. Instead, I was personally told by Barbara at SES London (in June remember) that the funds raised in membership had only been used to pay for meetings, etc, and that the vast majority of the funds were in a bank account waiting for a good use for them to be found and evaluated.

Now I find out that $156,000 of those funds were pre-allocated to be spent over the next two years on the stipend to Barbara.

Quite simply, I was directly deceived, at the very least by ommission of important facts, in a direct response to a direct question.

qwerty

07-30-2004, 10:54 AM

That is without question the most damning thing I've read since any of this was brought to light. The only possible excuse I can think of for this is that maybe the funds used to pay the salary aren't coming from member dues, but rather from the sponsors.

But that's the sort of answer you'd expect from a politician.

K.S. Katz

07-30-2004, 11:48 AM

SEMPO exists to fill the gaps in awareness and understanding of SEM...

How can they hope to fill in the gaps about SEM when they have issues effectively communicating with their members and general public?

Out of all the issues presented in this thread, I feel that the lack of communication is SEMPO's greatest weakness. I work for a non-profit and I can certainly understand the challenges in running one; however, IMO there is no excuse for not setting up a membership database and sending out minutes and other updates to members via email.

rbester

07-30-2004, 12:02 PM

It's the same old story... Once again cloaking got an SEO into trouble. ;)

Jake

07-30-2004, 12:12 PM

I am not a member of SEMPO but I am a member of other professional organizations. The one thing they have in common is a set of Bylaws. You know, an official document, approved by the membership, that outlines such things as purpose, mission, officers and their duties, election procedures of the officers, etc.

The only thing that I can find on the SEMPO site is the FAQ. Of course, that is not an official document. It seems to me that all this controversy can be put to rest by the board drafting Bylaws and submitting them to the membership for approval.

bethabernathy

07-30-2004, 01:33 PM

So they have until November to make their annual report available to the public, is this correct? I tried to call as I was thinking of dropping by their offices next Tuesday, but noone answered. Does anyone have any more details related to what is included in a Non-Profit corporations annual report and what it should disclose.

Unfortunately, I guess I will have to join the group to get into the meeting Monday, but it isn't my first choice considering, I can't get them to even answer their phone. :)

rankforsales

07-30-2004, 01:40 PM

I must say that I was stunned as many were when I saw the $78,000 a year salary being "voted" and paid! It sounds to me like a lot of money. If Mrs. Cole is at the head of a SEM firm, how can she ask $78,000 a year in compensation, over and above what she is already earning as an SEO or conference speaker?

I'm not saying she should'nt be compensated, but I feel $78,000 is a lot of money for an organization that calls itself a 'non-profit'...

However, my real main concern is: "What did SEMPO really do for the SEO industry as a whole"?

Since their foundation in Aug. 2003, (and after a lot of 'noise') we never heard (or at least I didn't) hear from them since.

Like most SEO I know and respect, I do believe the industry needs a self-regulating governing body, complete with a disciplinary committee like there exists in other industries.

If really we had that a few months ago, I think it would have prevented what is now being called the 'Traffic P.' scandal. Such events look bad on the industry as a whole, and as professional SEO's, we need to work together in protecting the public that place their trust in us.

Serge Thibodeau,
President,
Rank for $ales

bethabernathy

07-30-2004, 01:50 PM

1) 3/15/04 Barbara was the President and Chair Person for Sempo and said "SEMPO is a non-profit 501(c)3 organization. The Board of Directors have received no financial compensation for their volunteer position on the board of SEMPO."

2) 4/04 - Sempo's year end financials are posted in the members only section in April 2004.

3) 5/15/04 - Barbara assumed the role of executive direction and began drawing the $1500 per week at that time to compensate for the additional position.

4) 7/04 - Sempos 1 year anniversary was this week.

Sempo was not a year old in April and if I join the group right now, will I be able to see the financials?

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-30-2004, 02:05 PM

If somebody could kindly post a link to the financials...that you dont' have to be a member to view, imho, that's only fair.

As I've said before - I *was* a member, and worked for one of those firms that's linked to from the home page...best I got out of it (for about 6 months of membership...) was a few spam / commercial offers in my work inbox, and that's it.

Pretty sad, all this...I don't know Black_Knight, but I've seen his handle at forums for years...given that it sounds like Barbara lied to him in person about SEMPO imho, she should step down right away, and get somebody else to run the thing.

bethabernathy

07-30-2004, 02:19 PM

* A search for an experienced executive director is to begin with the goal of having them onboard by December 2004. Barbara will then step down as president and acting executive director and just be chair of the board.

So will the new director be receiving the same compensation? I do not see the position listed on their job board. December 2004 is only 5 months away, they better get rolling on their interview process.

St0n3y

07-30-2004, 02:37 PM

Its been a year for SEMPO and I'm *still* waiting for a reason to join. I've read absolutly nothing that would compel me to give money and be a part of this organization. Perhaps those reasons are out there and I jsut have not read the right materials so I'm open if there are any available (Disclosure: I only skimmed through this thread after reading the first page.)

From what I see SEMPO appears to be an organization more about itself than anything else. I would however like to see an organization that stands as an authoritative/governing body for SEO.

Joseph Morin

07-30-2004, 02:46 PM

Comments by a SEMPO Board Member (http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum5/5022.htm)

Bernard

07-30-2004, 03:11 PM

Brett's response was not very well considered IMO.

Last thing on this issue: some of this talk and perceived controversy (at least in other forums) I know to be 100% at the direction of certain individuals who have tight alliances (read: WORK) with search engines. The reimbursement for the directors time was 100% at the bequest of the board and I believe it was published in the minutes available to members(?). If you were working against marketers, wouldn't it be in your best interest to get the org self focused on itself instead of fighting for the members concerns?

He believes it was published in minutes available to the members? He should know. There are several SEMPO members who have posted to this thread decrying the lack of access to minutes for any meetings IIRC.

It's a disingenuous red herring to label all discontent with SEMPO as the work of a few "agent provocateurs". Does he really believe that people do not have honest misgivings/criticisms?

I was one of SEMPO's most vocal critics in forums when it first started. I do not have any tight alliances with any search engines. I am not even in the industry so I do not compete with anyone at SEMPO for any work. However, I could and can see fundamental flaws in SEMPO that (will) undermine their stated mission IMO.

When you consider many of the leading voices in this org are currently selling page rank and producing pages that are suspect at best - it would be hypocritical to the point of breaking a unwritten trust among optimizers to propose such "police" work by SEMpo.

He understands that the "leading voices" of SEMPO would be hypocritical in participating in any push towards best practices but doesn't see how that can undermine the mission of SEMPO? SEMPO will be shooting themselves (and the whole industry) in the foot when the next TP style debacle occurs within their ranks.

bethabernathy

07-30-2004, 03:18 PM

K.S. Katz

07-30-2004, 03:33 PM

Try to hire anyone with the knowledge and experience it would take to run a SEMpo in the silicon valley and you are in for major sticker shock. Other similar org directors are making 5 to 6 times ($350-$500k) for the same position

All I can say is WOW, where can I signup! :D

I'm a Director of Education for a non-profit and I can tell you that I make no where near that salary. (Maybe it's only the org directors on the West Coast that make that kind of money. :p )

Running a non-profit is more than a salary, it's a calling. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication. From everything I've read Barbara has put in a lot of time and effort, so IMO her salary is not the issue. (It's the lack of communication.)

However, I fully support having elections for board members and involving the members more.

NFFC

07-30-2004, 03:55 PM

I think I have said enough already but forgive me, I just can't get this thought out of my mind.

"There was the same hearty cheering as before, and the mugs were emptied to the dregs. But as the animals outside gazed at the scene, it seemed to them that some strange thing was happening. What was it that had altered in the faces of the pigs? Clover´s old dim eye flitted from one face to another. Some of them had five chins, some had four, some had three. But what was it that seemed to be melting and changing? Then, the applause having come to an end, the company took up their cards and continued the game that had been interrupted, and the animals crept silently away.

But they had not gone twenty yards when they stopped short. An uproar of voices was coming from the farmhouse. They rushed back and looked through the window again. Yes, a violent quarrel was in progress. There were shoutings, bangings on the table, sharp suspicious glances, furious denials. The source of the trouble appeared that Napoleon and Mr. Pilkington had each played an ace of spades simultaneously.

Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

Animal Farm

rcjordan

07-30-2004, 04:02 PM

There are a lot of statements and figures being presented as fact that I cannot agree with, and a few that I chalk up to outright misinformation.

youngpup

07-30-2004, 05:00 PM

OK NFFC I (think) I know what you're saying - so what's the third alternative?

Black_Knight

07-30-2004, 05:40 PM

I don't know Black_Knight, but I've seen his handle at forums for years...given that it sounds like Barbara lied to him in person about SEMPO imho, she should step down right away, and get somebody else to run the thing.
The only way it could be a lie is as a lie by ommission. However, I certainly do feel that I was deceived, that important information was ommitted. In that this conversation was with a view to selling me on joining... That part I can't personally overlook.

Still, look at it this way. If SEMPO were to say that anyone who is a member will have the opportunity to take part in a vote of no confidence in the current leadership, they could probably double membership in a week. :p

rustybrick

07-30-2004, 06:21 PM

For some reason this whole "sempo scandal" does not bother me too much. I am not sure why... I am a member but still, doesn't bother me. Go figure. :confused:

Incubator

07-30-2004, 06:40 PM

For some reason this whole "sempo scandal" does not bother me too much. I am not sure why... I am a member but still, doesn't bother me. Go figure. :confused:
I agree Rusty, im not a memeber...... more concerned about my own business then someone elses

Cheers

Wc

NFFC

07-30-2004, 06:47 PM

>OK NFFC I (think) I know what you're saying - so what's the third alternative?

You give me far too much credit, I'm very [and I mean very] good at breaking things apart but clueless at building things.

>The only way it could be a lie is as a lie by ommission.

I don't think being "economical with the truth" is something that should be accepted from an industry "leader". If you think you were deceived that is good enough for me, I trust your judgement.

I hate to get personal but I have to be true to my heart. Barbara Coll needs to resign, not tomorrow but today, I see no future for SEMPO with her at the helm.

Just so nobody has to read between the lines:

In my personal opinion Barbara Coll is not a fit or proper person to be in a positition of authority within a "best of breed" industry association.

In my personal opinion the other board members who "looked the other way" need to be held to account also.

In my personal opinion I have never, and I mean never, seen a more amatuer set up in my entire life. It has, imho, set our indusrty back many years.

I'll be clear, Barbara Coll needs to resign asap [paying the money back would show a little class] but resign is the only option.

searchengineblog.com

07-30-2004, 08:02 PM

"admission of shortcomings with member communication and steps being taken to correct this"

Let's not dress this up. "The communication process" in this industry is quite simple:

a) write e-mail
b) click send.

You have to ask yourself why such a simple thing wasn't done.

bethabernathy

07-30-2004, 10:17 PM

The lawyers fees must be kicking in about now. :D

Marcia

07-31-2004, 06:03 AM

bethabernathy:
The lawyers fees must be kicking in about now.
Oh my goodness gracious, Beth! That remark and others you've been making gives me a very scary mental picture of a bloodthirsty crowd jeering and cheering, hoping to see the blood flow when a ferocious bull gores a matador to shreds.

This isn't the running of the bulls in Spain or a dogfight or a roosterfight to the death in a Southern California backyard with bets put out, waiting for the blood to flow. This isn't an avaricious emotional issue; this is a practical, serious situation that people do have strong opinions about, which they do voice - which is exactly what public forums are for, within an industry - but the ultimate disposition of the matters at hand is strictly up to the membership, in the final analysis.

People should only join an organization because they support its goals and vision - and if that isn't quite quantified, then membership is an expression of trust in and support of the leadership. They remain for as long as that exists, and if it reaches the point where the support and trust are gone toward the group or the individuals, they leave. It's a simple and straightforward as that.

Quite frankly, I'm not so sure having open membership available online without some sort of pre-screening is the greatest idea. At this point in time, if I were a member (which I never have felt inclined to become), I think I'd send an email to the board suggesting that it be proposed that open membership like that be changed.

In fact, I think it would be a great idea to suspend accepting new memberships until after the coming meeting. There are things that need to be resolved, and the rest of us, while we may have opinions, need to butt out and leave it to those who are members to sort out among themselves.

I believe the last thing SEMPO needs now is johnny-come-latelies, some of whom may have personal agendas contrary to their purposes, and some of whom may join with the express purpose of agitating and creating further damage and/or turmoil.

seobook

07-31-2004, 06:17 AM

I believe the last SEMPO needs now is johnny-come-latelies, some of whom may have personal agendas contrary to their purposes, and some of whom may join with the express purpose of agitating and creating turmoil.

if you had an agenda to push and were a vocal individual that might be some of the best $300 you could spend right now. I think it would be a good idea to not be accepting new members over the weekend.

Nick W

07-31-2004, 06:22 AM

>>some of whom may join with the express purpose of agitating and creating turmoil.

I shouldnt think for a moment that anyone would spend money on a membership just for that. You can do it right here for free.

>>That remark and others you've been making

As far as I can see, her remarks are spot on. Without this laughable communication problem (and there's a euphemism for you...) none of the ridicule the board so rightly deserve would have been aired in public.

What we will probably never find out, is who leaked it and why? To me, that's far more interesting than the resultant scandal. An ambitious board member? A dissatisfied board member? Either way, there seems to be far more at stake, and far more that needs to looked at than just the money thing.

Nick

seobook

07-31-2004, 06:53 AM

I shouldnt think for a moment that anyone would spend money on a membership just for that. You can do it right here for free.

some people consider these posts as flames though. at the conference you could have more effect than you do here. not that I would be the one spending $300 to complain though

semsai

07-31-2004, 08:52 AM

First off, I am not currently nor have I ever been a member of SEMPO. I take great pride in my SEO ethics. I do not need a group of SEOs to tell me what is good and what is evil. I also like to color inside the lines -- most of the time.

I am also honored to know Danny Sullivan. If my SEO ethics are demanding on me, I must say that Danny Sullivan's SEO ethics are beyond reproach. To associate Danny Sullivan with the taint of this thread is completely unfair in my book. Now that I am posting a reply to this thread, I am also going to be judged guilty by associating myself with Danny Sullivan? What rot. Danny rocks.

At this point, the only thing SEMPO is guilty of is failing to live up to our expections. So let's talk about what a nonprofit organization is -- and isn't. And please understand, I am not an attorney, although I may have played one on TV.

SEMPO is a nonprofit organization as filed in the great state of California. There are legal definitions of what a nonprofit organization is, including 25+/- types of nonprofits recognized by the IRS. Each state has various rules and regulations, but most require officers of the corporation, a board of directors, by-laws and annual meetings. Most states also require nonprofit organizations to register with state charity bureaus or other agencies and adhere to reporting requirements particularly involving fundraising operations.

In a nutshell, a nonprofit is a tax-exempt organization that serves the public interest. The purpose of this type of organization must be charitable, educational, scientific, religious or literary. Legally, a nonprofit organization is one that does not declare a profit and instead utilizes all revenue available after normal operating expenses in service to the public interest.

Nonprofit organizations can be unincorporated or incorporated. An unincorporated nonprofit is somewhat rare for while it can be given federal tax-exempt status or the designation of being a 501(c)(3) organization as defined by the IRS, it does not enjoy the legal protection a corporation provides. When a nonprofit organization is incorporated, it shares many traits with for-profit corporations except that there are no shareholders.

By definition, nonprofit organizations have paid and volunteer staff, but employment taxes and federal and state workplace rules are generally no different than those imposed on for-profit organizations. A perception is that salaries in the nonprofit world are low and while this is generally true, the type of nonprofit organization can make a huge difference in how closely it compares to a for-profit business.

A nonprofit organization can have clients, can offer products and services, will need revenue, should market itself, and must be concerned about customer satisfaction whether in those assisted or those who contribute donations in support of operations, programs or services. It is a business that must serve the public interest and it will succeed or fail as any business will, depending on how well it is operated. The next move is up to SEMPO.

See you in San Jose,
Semsai

Nick W

07-31-2004, 09:52 AM

>>Danny rocks.

Thoroughly decent bloke, sure.

Doesnt mean he's not associated with SEMPO though mate, however much u like him.

Nick

bethabernathy

07-31-2004, 12:36 PM

Sorry if you have misunderstood my posts. If you read through this thread and have any business background you would be inclined to think that it would be most likely Sempo would have requested council on some of these issues by this time. Maybe I am completely off target, but if you have read anything about me, I have 15 years of legal experience working for a few of the top lawfirms in the country (i.e. as a DBA). So, I am inclined to think this way, just simply because is the backbone of my business experience. In fact, I don't even look at as negative. In addition, the comment was in part just being :rolleyes: sarcastic. Again, I apologize if that was inappropriate, but I have read some very direct accusations on this thread, many much worse than mine, and, yes, perhaps it is time to keep a lid on this.

Related to membership, I have wanted to join Sempo since it opened last year. I made several attempts to find out more details related to whether the dues were annual, were their any qualifications required to join, etc. All went unanswered. So, I did not join. Even recently, I couldn't get information related to membership, short of making a post on this forum. It just is not good business. If it is a volunteer operation, I am assuming they could find some way to get someone to answer the phone.

At this point, I want to become a member to hear more from the board about the direction the organization is headed with the hopes to sincerely gain some positive feelings about the association. I am a very open minded person and am hoping the meeting will shed some positive light on Sempo. It will have to if the organization is going to survive. Clearly the board are talented intelligent individuals, so I am only going to have to assume that they have coordinated to create a positive go forward call to action.

orion

07-31-2004, 12:49 PM

As an impartial outsider (I'm not part of any SEO, SEM company, search engine or SEMPO, not yet) I would like to make some suggestions that have worked before. First, let me present an example. After that let me present a plan that may work well along both sides, --if done properly. The plan is not perfect, but done properly may be effective at leading to a solution. Isn't this what you all want, one way or the other?

I'm sure others can improve the plan, expand on it or suggest a derivative plan. First a little history (Damn me with History!). For those of you that don't know me, I'm a scientist, not a professional writer. So, I warn you to digest my typos and rational horrors when reading all my posts and articles (actually over the years that's turning into my writing style).

HISTORY

About 10 years ago, eminent mathematicians Doron Witztum, Eliyahu Rips and Yoav Rosenberg published the paper "Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis" in Statistical Science, 1994, Vol. 9, No. 3, 429-438; http://www.torahcodes.co.il/wrr1/wrr1.htm

Known as ELS or more commonly by the Torah Code or Bible Code, the ELS theory predicts that the book of Genesis has encrypted many historic events (by keywords, phrases, names, actions, dates, etc). Some have extended ELS to the rest of the Bible's books.

That the paper was and still is controversial to many in many fields, you bet. Right after the paper, opportunistic marketers disguised as "respected" writers (what else) or posing as news staff, programmers, religions leaders, came out with Bible Code bestseller books (eg. Drosnin and others), "news", computer programs, apocalyptic theories and all sort of gizmos based on the Torah Code and ELS. Detractors demonstrated that ELS can be proved with books of same word distribution and length as the Torah; eg., Moby Dick and other books. What the heck all this has anything to do with SEMPO (or SEMPO as a big fish like Moby Dick)? A lot. Let see.

Many statisticians, mathematicians, religious leaders, and the above marketers started a controversy that is still running around, getting cold/hot at times (thanks to the History Channel and other media powerhouses with vested interests).[I have researched the topic well and have my own position on ELS since it deals directly with terms co-occurrence and sequences in textual data. At the right time I will disclose my position on ELS. Sorry for injecting the topic]

Eminent mathematicians, from University of New South Wales (Australia), to University of Otago (NZ), to The Hebrew University (Israel), to Kharkov State University (Ukraine), to King's College, University of London (UK), to Cornell University (USA) and many other top universities around the world came up with a simple idea, which is given here http://www.math.caltech.edu/code/petition.html and as follow.

Rather than making anonymous polls, putting press releases or shoutting about it, they wrote a professional STATEMENT explaining their position on the issue in an elegant and professional fashion. Anyone that agreed with the STATEMENT, were welcome to read it online and to add their signatures. This simple solution (a) identifies by name, title and academic affiliation who DO NOT ENDORSE the ELS Theory and (b) put peer pressure on those defending ELS.

Many saw the writing on the wall and backdown, while others are still not caving. (I know colleages that no longer believe in ELS). The thing is that a professional group made a statement in an authority site (CALTECH), put pressure and got results. Today most statisticians do not care for ELS (yet not all of them want to sign for political issues running inside their universities.). End of the example. Now my plan.

PLAN

An authority site like SEARCHENGINEWATCH.COM (where else?) can put out two separate STATEMENT OF ENDORSEMENT, one summarizing many of the criteria argued in this SEW thread (or other forums) as to why Ms. COLL (or the board) should resign immediately from SEMPO, and which reforms must be implemented in SEMPO. A second STATEMENT should be put out stating just the opposite; ie, and I mean by "opposite" why Ms. COLL or the board should not resign, etc...) Those signing should sign in one but not in the other. Signatures must include the legal names (no nicknames), titles and business affiliation of those signing.

Properly done, such statements of endorsement make miracles, are cost-effective and should reveal where their hearts and guts are. (If someone think that state laws were broken, or rights were violated, make the statement(s) available to their state ombudperson, gov agency, news media, etc). I would suggest, make the statements available to current or prospective sponsors, vendors and clients.

I'm sure other authority sites may have thought about this idea, which in the past has worked well in many dissimilar scenarios (consumer advocacy groups, politics, with lobbysts, etc). Any though about this? When the SEO/SEM should start? Immediately. One thing I can assure you, peer pressure and free publicity produce results and focus, one way or the other. If nothing is done, soon we will see alternative organizations emerging. Feel free to debunk this plan. I will not react to that, one way or the other.

Orion

andrewgoodman

07-31-2004, 01:00 PM

"Try to hire anyone with the knowledge and experience it would take to run a SEMpo in the silicon valley and you are in for major sticker shock. Other similar org directors are making 5 to 6 times ($350-$500k) for the same position."

Clearly they should not be operating in Silicon Valley it is way too expensive for a non-profit operation to be located. Just plain business sense here.

This type of talk starts taking us in an uncomfortable direction. We start hearing justifications of hundreds of hours worked and giant comparable salaries... it's a pattern one often sees. Go ahead and appoint oneself the de facto savior of some organization or another, and then be real surprised when people who were not consulted in, or don't respect the legitimacy of, the coronation, don't want to be "saved."

It's too bad it has to come to this, but Brett's sticker shock comments (great way to put all the little people in their place, Brett) are out of line. Everyone can understand the idea of hiring a professional to do a job that pays well, in a lobbying or advocacy role. At the same time, such things need to be done in a transparent manner, and the people hired need to be true professionals. This idea of holding a proper job competition makes a lot of sense. I am sure it would have happened eventually... right?

And although the price tag is not the issue and I would be happy to see a six-figure salary paid to the right trade group exec director at the right time in the right place, there is no need to belittle people for mentioning that the reality is, many helpful organizations are forced to make do with little pay. Someone close to me was executive director of an umbrella advocacy group (the leading group in Canada, co-ordinating dozens of smaller groups). The pay for the full-time gig, including extraneous media spots due to the increased attention to the cause, post 9/11: $40,000. There are always hundreds of applicants for the position. The cause in question: "Peace." Everyone else in these organizations works for free. Not everyone needs to be "compensated" like high-powered execs just because they chose to move to a high-rent district.

Money doesn't grow on trees despite what some of us might have experienced in good times. Were the position of SEMPO exec director opened as a full-time gig at $80,000/yr. including extensive self-promotional travel, there would be no shortage of applicants. (Read: hundreds.)

This is nothing personal against Barbara at all. Indeed the time has come to stop personalizing this, to take a breath and recognize that SEMPO lacks legitimacy in the eyes of most of its erstwhile constituency. People should not be made to feel like they have a duty to rally around a particular person at this early stage in this thing's development. And they certainly shouldn't be lectured by Brett as to what is and isn't expensive. If you are one of those special people who can go out and get yourself a guaranteed $250k salary (whoops, I mean $350k, did I read that right?) with benefits while taking on no risk, well more power to you. That's why I always wanted to grow up to be a university president, but that didn't quite work out.

It really is a shame that we are even talking about salary at this point, since $78k would be appropriate under the right circumstances. However, with Brett tossing around mid-six-figure numbers like Mark Cuban hiring towel boys, one fears that the trend is going to be towards further self-aggrandizement and further self-justification. Not a healthy trend, IMHO. But I said essentially that from Day One. (I did become an ordinary member last December.)

Jill Whalen

07-31-2004, 02:30 PM

What we will probably never find out, is who leaked it and why?

Leaked what? From what Danny wrote from the information he was given, it doesn't sound like there were any secrets. So how can you "leak" something that's not a secret?

It's a public, non-profit organization, so obviously what they do can (and does) become public knowledge.

I certainly agree that all of the stuff Mike mentioned in his article are important things, and they should have been (and should be) brought to the attention of the members.

I applaud Mike for speeding that along!

orion

07-31-2004, 02:35 PM

I must agree in this one with Andrew. This is not about Ms Coll, salaries or saviors.

Orion

dannysullivan

07-31-2004, 03:02 PM

An authority site like SEARCHENGINEWATCH.COM (where else?) can put out two separate STATEMENT OF ENDORSEMENT, one summarizing many of the criteria argued in this SEW thread (or other forums) as to why Ms. COLL (or the board) should resign immediately from SEMPO, and which reforms must be implemented in SEMPO.

Way back, I did an earlier post (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?p=6904#post6904) where I thought it made sense for the board to look at moving up elections in an orderly fashion. I didn't know when exactly the terms were due for renewal. Then I had that later post, where I was simply reporting what the SEMPO board said it was doing. Please, everyone, don't confuse that later post with what I think personally that they should do.

I stick by my earlier post. I think the board should look to move the elections up more quickly. You can't have them at the SES meeting as Mike has suggested for the reasons I've already outlined -- members haven't been given proper notice, and it seems ill advised to perhaps lose your entire board all at once. I'd rather see something like half the board stand in the next month or so, then the other half stand perhaps six months after that. In that way, if you're going to have a complete transition, it's an orderly one.

I've seen a number of people suggest Barbara herself should resign immediately. OK, perhaps she might fall on her sword for the good of SEMPO. The question then is, who takes over? I don't believe any of the existing board members wants that job. So if anyone is interested, in all seriousness, express yourself now.

I'd also done an earlier post (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?p=7153#post7153) where I outlined what I saw the main issues that SEMPO faces coming out of this. The first three somewhat get resolved if you hold elections. The fourth item clearly needs to be fixed immediately, better communication. The fifth is most tricky -- if SEMPO is going to continue, what should it do going forward.

So to recap, I don't think it's an issue of having a plan for the sides that want the entire board to go versus the board staying. I think there's already wide-spread agreement elections should be held -- and those elections will help determine if the entire board goes or if in fact some stay. The real plan that's needed is what should SEMPO be doing, once its house is put back in order.

orion

07-31-2004, 03:32 PM

1. Anyone else is invited to debunk the little plan, speak your guts/heart or to sit down and wait for elections.

2. We checked her site again and is still down. It appears that lack of communication with the outside world is becoming symptomatic.

Orion

bethabernathy

07-31-2004, 03:48 PM

I believe the last thing SEMPO needs now is johnny-come-latelies, some of whom may have personal agendas contrary to their purposes, and some of whom may join with the express purpose of agitating and creating further damage and/or turmoil.

I am sorry, but this is sort of agitating. Related to johnny-come-latelies, I have been working in this industry since early 2000. Again, I have said I tried to join Sempo early September last year after the August SES conference and after reading about the organization in one of Danny's newsletters. They just never responded so I thought they were a little unorganized at start up and decided to wait until things were put into place a little better.

With regards to having a personal agenda, I am not sure what that would be. I live in Tahoe with 2 dogs and a husband, work out of a loft in a condo. Spend most of my time enjoying the outdoors. I don't intend to go big with my business. Been there done that and ran away after 15 years.

Next with regard to agitating and creating further damage, what in the world would be the point in that. I am a very reserved individual with the exception to my legal background. I am looking forward to attending the conference and attending some sessions. To be honest I am just happy that my little 1 man show up here in Tahoe has some resources related to the industry I am enjoying working in.

That said I hope not to be picked on again. PLEEEEEEEASE.

orion

07-31-2004, 04:08 PM

I agree with bethabernathy. Name-callings or labeling posters is always unfair.

Some here are getting too emotional. Others seem too attached to their little baby or experiment called SEMPO. In Science when a trial experiment starts wrong is removed from the roots altogether and we start all over again. Avoid Murphy's rule.

Often, organizations that start with the wrong foot are hard to fix at a later time. I'm not saying is impossible, just hard to be fixed. Now when credibility becomes an issue, I would say the chances to be fixed are even small. That's simply a probability estimate.

Orion

dannysullivan

07-31-2004, 04:09 PM

FYI, I nixed the initial reference of Barbara's own company web site being down and some confirmation posts of this. The reason is exactly the same as why I nixed phone numbers for her site being listed earlier. This thread is about SEMPO. If the SEMPO web site is up or down, that's relevant.

orion

07-31-2004, 04:15 PM

polarmate

07-31-2004, 04:33 PM

No probs with deleting my post, Danny.

Beth, wouldn't it make more sense to sit this one out and wait to see what the outcome is before joining? If SEMPO dissipates into nothingness, that will be good money gone to waste. Except if they refund membership fees, of course. If SEMPO manages to survive the storm, you could be joining a better managed organization.

bethabernathy

07-31-2004, 04:47 PM

Perhaps. Do you think it is still on?

polarmate

07-31-2004, 04:54 PM

I don't know, Beth. It's been embroiled in controversy from the start. The name was made up *after* the acronym was selected, which was based on how nice it sounded and that the domain name was available. The objectives and goals also came after the fact. And there have been communication problems galore. A loosely charted direction does not work when it comes to an organization that purports to represent any industry.

JohnScott

07-31-2004, 05:05 PM

From day one, I didn't like SEMPO. It just appeared to be an org set up to promote certain individuals within the industry. Barbara Coll, Brett Tabke, ETC. The focus is all on the "SEMPO CIRCLE Members" as opposed to being on the SEO industry. It's more of a PR stunt for those members than it is an advocacy/awareness org for the SEO industry.

Now, I have nothing against Brett Tabke et al; neither do I have anything against making money. Churches make money. Churches make a lot of money. Red Cross makes money, and any expectation to the contrary is unreasonable. Is promoting the SEO industry a worthy cause? Not hardly. It's not like promoting the SEO industry is curing cancer or feeding homeless children. There is nothing "noble" about the SEO industry. It's an industry with one purpose - to make money. So if the professionals promoting this industry are well paid, that's exactly as it should be. The problem is, SEMPO does not promote the SEO industry.

I've been watching another industry's .org - the Insulating Concrete Form Association ( http://www.forms.org/ ). Their purpose is to promote building with concrete forms, as opposed to wood. Visit that website and you see them promoting ICF construction, not their individual members. Sure, they have members, and the members pay a pretty penny to maintain membership, but the obvious focus of the org is on promoting ICF.

And they do actually promote the industry they serve - International Builders Shows, regional Home Builder Shows and in trade magazines. In stark contrast to SEMPO, which does nothing for the industry.

SEMPO looks to me like it simply sells text links. Well, not just to me. It says so on http://www.sempo.org/sempo-membership-information.php .... Membership fees seem to based on how many links you want from which pages. And this is where I really have a problem. Not with selling text links - because I buy them like pretty much any other SEO. The problem I have is in the blantant insulting of the collective intelligence of the SEO industry. $5,000 for a few PR7 links? How stupid are SEO's supposed to be? Surely not stupid?! $299 for PR4 links? No, no, no.

Making money on the Internet is all fine and good and as it should be; but you have to provide value. If you take $5,000 off some poor unsuspecting bloke and don't provide value, how are you different from those paypal spoofers who empty so many bank accounts? Even if I pay $299, I'd definately feel ripped off if all I get out of is a few spam emails complete with affiliate links.

Black_Knight

07-31-2004, 05:26 PM

bethabernathy: I believe that Marcia's comment:
I believe the last thing SEMPO needs now is johnny-come-latelies, some of whom may have personal agendas contrary to their purposes, and some of whom may join with the express purpose of agitating and creating further damage and/or turmoil.
Closely followed my tongue-in-cheek comment:
Still, look at it this way. If SEMPO were to say that anyone who is a member will have the opportunity to take part in a vote of no confidence in the current leadership, they could probably double membership in a week. :p
In other words, I saw it as a generally addressed comment, regarding the same potential problem that I had suggested might arise, and not something addressed to you. :)

Incidentally, you are right of course to suggest that the legal position is something that does have to be considered. Simply being incorporated as a non-profit organization places firm legal duties upon all those persons on the board of directors.

Bragadocchio, an administrator at another forum, pointed out some of those duties recently, and I'd recommend the same reading material he mentioned there:
The Key To Non-Profit Governance (page 2) (http://www.t-tlaw.com/np-02a.htm)
Responsibility and Liability Of Board Members of Nonprofit Organizations (http://www.vscpa.com/PR/Non-Profit/liability.htm)

I bring this up not because I believe that there is yet cause for any legal challenge, but simply because some may be starting to wonder what the legal restrictions and responsibilities are, and because this is the stuff that one expects the board themselves are already very familiar with, and so it helps put us all on the same page.
The duty of care means that directors should care about the organization they serve. Board decisions should be made deliberately out of a sense of deep concern for the best interests of the organization. It also means that directors should base their decisions upon facts and reliable information. The duty of care requires directors and officers not to act without first taking care to be properly informed.
The duty of loyalty is closely related to a director's duty of care. The duty of loyalty requires directors to act in the best interests of the organization, not their own. It is a duty which embraces fairness, good faith and honesty. It is the intention to advance and protect the organization free of any conflicts of interest or self-dealing. It is a duty which demands a director's allegiance to the organization's best interests. It requires directors to act without contemplating any direct or indirect personal financial gain or business opportunity.
Duty of obedience. Directors should not exceed their delegated authority or direct the organization beyond its purpose or mission as set forth by the articles, bylaws, or constitution. Such actions violate the trust invested by those who hold memberships or support the organization and can imperil the organization’s tax-exempt status.
Perhaps the single most important task of directors is to evaluate the performance of the organization's chief officer. In practice, directors of nonprofit organizations rarely check the chief officer's performance.
[...]
Perhaps the second most important task of the board is to support, encourage and help the chief officer whenever possible without meddling. An organization can be accountable where boards and chief officers willingly and cooperatively share power in the best interests of the organization.

bethabernathy

07-31-2004, 05:30 PM

O.K. here goes. My $299 is not to join Sempo, it is to get into that meeting. $299 to attend Sempo's meeting to see what is really going on first hand. To also attend what seems like will be a historical meeting for our industry. I'd like to check this out. Any comments. :)

polarmate

07-31-2004, 05:33 PM

you take $5,000 off some poor unsuspecting bloke ...
Haven't some SEMPO Circle members received high value contracts because of their perceived higher credibility which is a direct result of their "CIRCLE" membership?

Does anyone really hand over $5K unsuspectingly? If they do, then they deserve what they get. IMO. ;)

Mike Grehan

07-31-2004, 05:40 PM

I stick by my earlier post. I think the board should look to move the elections up more quickly. You can't have them at the SES meeting as Mike has suggested for the reasons I've already outlined -- members haven't been given proper notice, and it seems ill advised to perhaps lose your entire board all at once. I'd rather see something like half the board stand in the next month or so, then the other half stand perhaps six months after that. In that way, if you're going to have a complete transition, it's an orderly one.

Danny,

In my article I was speaking figuratively about the board resigning. I didn't mean-en-masse-on-stage at the SEMPO meeting. I just meant at some point soon. That simple measure would help to eradicate the self-appointed issue.

I know you've mentioned this a couple of times, so I thought I'd best clarify the point as it seems I've not been clear on that.

What I would expect on Monday, as all of the members expect I'm sure, are some clear answers and recognition that, to many, the SEMPO board is out of touch with rank-and-file members and is rapidly tarnishing its reputation due to a perceived elitist "behind closed doors" management style.

Cheers!

Mike.

bethabernathy

07-31-2004, 05:49 PM

I am sorry, but B. Coll has logged onto this forum both yesterday and today. You can check via her membership status. I am stunned that she has not made some sort of post related to this. Please let me know what you think?

Black_Knight

07-31-2004, 05:59 PM

Please let me know what you think?
Since you ask, I'm delighted. This seems to me to indicate that the SEMPO board are (finally) ceasing to reply as disconnected individuals and finally wait until they discuss this together, collectively, as a board, to determine policy and a proper response.

bethabernathy

07-31-2004, 06:04 PM

Sounds Good. :)

orion

07-31-2004, 06:36 PM

From day one, I didn't like SEMPO. It just appeared to be an org set up to promote certain individuals within the industry. Barbara Coll,..... The focus is all on the "SEMPO CIRCLE Members" as opposed to being on the SEO industry. It's more of a PR stunt for those members than it is an advocacy/awareness org for the SEO industry.

The facts seem to confirm John's concerns. Is this really about the person involved or not? You decide. Do a search for SEMPO in Google News and sort results by date. Check results since 07-28-04 or so. I think some have posted somewhere in SEW Forum this or something similar to this, I don't remember

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/07-28-2004/0002220027&EDATE=

Check the footnote source of the press release. Is this sounds like self-promotion to you? You decide, not me.

To Mike Grehan:

What's already done, it's done. Once someone opens a can of worms... Perhaps terminal decisions should be revisited without fear or passion. Why not? Some pain now is better than a tumor surgery later.

I wonder, how the big search engine companies are looking at all these as we speak? What do they think? How potential sponsors are feeling?

Orion

seobook

07-31-2004, 08:38 PM

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/07-28-2004/0002220027&EDATE=

Check the footnote source of the press release. Is this sounds like self-promotion to you? You decide, not me.

why does that footer say
" SOURCE Search Engine Marketing Professional Organization
Web Site: http://www.WebMama.com"

and shouldn't that link be into SEMPO's site?

polarmate

07-31-2004, 09:08 PM

Is there any wonder that people are trying to access webmama.com instead of sempo.org? :rolleyes:

bethabernathy

07-31-2004, 09:37 PM

Hi There - I signed up for Sempo and got access to their financials. I was going to put it in image format, but just don't have time right now. If that would be more appropriate, let me know and I will make the time. You can see them by going here:

http://www.integratedresourcemgmt.com/SEMPO_PandL.xls

I haven't really reviewed but I hope it spurs some interest and friendly comments. :)

The PR Guy

07-31-2004, 09:48 PM

First, the contact at the bottom of the PR Newswire version of this press release wasn't what I submitted to PR Web. You can see for yourself what I submitted at http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb144487.htm.

What you are also seeing is a beta test -- a press distributed through PR Web to PR Newswire as well. It is just one of the things that SEO-PR and PR Web will be talking about next week at the Search Engine Strategies Conference & Expo -- but the beta test obviously still has a few bugs to fix.

So, blame the PR guy -- not the client -- for this mistake.

While I'm here, let me add my two cents. I've been following this thread for a couple of days -- and haven't weighed in -- until now. I've found much of the criticism constructive. And I have strongly urged friends to take the high road when posting a comment.

But I've been surprised -- and disappointed -- by a few people who feel the need to make personal attacks on people who VOLUNTEERED to create an organization -- one that now has 245 members.

SEMPO has come a long way in a short time. This isn't to say it can't be improved. It can. And people who are willing to donate their time and talent continue to be more than welcome to join the organization -- and have a positive impact. What is our agenda? It isn't hidden. We are "working to increase awareness and promote the value of Search Engine Marketing worldwide."

A few months ago, SEMPO started switching gears from recruiting new members and sponsors to providing: (1) members with access to sponsors, (2) information on Search Engine Marketing that members can take back to their clients in the form of new research, (3) time for members to properly network with each other, and (4) marketing campaigns to promote Search Engine Marketing’s value to non-SEM savvy marketers.

For example, at our meeting at Search Engine Strategies this coming week, members will hear about the formation of SEMPO Japan, meet many of Overture’s key executives, and attend a special member-only event hosted by Verizon SuperPages.com. In addition, we plan to present an analysis of the secondary research that's already available, so we don't reinvent the wheel when we start conducting primary research projects on the search engine marketing industry and SEM companies. Finally, we will be launching advertising and public relations campaigns this Fall emphasizing “Top of Search = Top of Mind.”

Our sponsors have turned to SEMPO members as sources to advise and help structure new products and sales/client services models. And the industry press has recognized the impact of our organization. For example, seven out of the 10 people in BtoB’s Who’s Who 2004 list in the new Search category are SEMPO members or sponsors. One -- Ron Belanger, VP-search engine marketing at Carat Interactive -- is an Executive Member of SEMPO, which is the the lowest level at just $299. So, it doesn't cost much to benefit from joining.

While SEMPO has come a long way in its first year, all the Board members that I've talked to believe that the organization has even father to go in the coming year. And that's why they are putting the communications, services, and infrastructure in place to continue the organization’s growth. No one is resting on their laurels.

In fact, all of us believe the entire search industry as well as SEMPO members will benefit from all the activities mentioned above. As one of my favorite Presidents observed when I was much younger, "A rising tide lifts all boats."

seobook

07-31-2004, 09:58 PM

So, blame the PR guy -- not the client -- for this mistake.
But it is still something that should be fixed.
Our sponsors have turned to SEMPO members as sources to advise and help structure new products and sales/client services models. And the industry press has recognized the impact of our organization. For example, seven out of the 10 people in BtoBï¿½s Whoï¿½s Who 2004 list in the new Search category are SEMPO members or sponsors. One -- Ron Belanger, VP-search engine marketing at Carat Interactive -- is an Executive Member of SEMPO, which is the the lowest level at just $299. So, it doesn't cost much to benefit from joining.

I guess my question with that list / award: would they have still got that award if they were not part of sempo? if not what did the sempo memebership add to that firm that made it award worthy?

most of those "awards" or people mentioned on that list were likely the big wigs right? surely its a good idea to include at least a few people from various tiers to prevent the situation from looking like it was entirely designed to promote just SEMPO circle members.

welcome to the forums the PR Guy. by the way you are fun to chat with in person :)

The PR Guy

07-31-2004, 10:16 PM

Actually, I hadn't seen the problem until it was pointed out in this forum. But, now that it's been brought to my attention, I'll fix it.

As for BtoB's Who's Who list in Search, I suspect that the Google co-founders would have made the list no matter what. As for Dan Boberg of Overture, consider this: He's Overture's liason to SEMPO. Why did BtoB pick him instead of lots of other executives at Yahoo or Overture? And the guys on the list from Ask Jeeves, FindWhat and Kanoodle aren't SEMPO sponsors like Google and Overture are. So, 2 out of 5 vendors are SEMPO sponsors?!? Maybe that doesn't make the case as strongly as I might like.

But, 5 out of the 5 search engine marketers on the list are SEMPO members, including Ron Belanger, VP-search engine marketing at Carat Interactive, a SEMPO Executive Member -- which is the cheapest level at $299. So, does this make the case that SEMPO has impact? I think so.

And for those who didn't make the list -- well, I didn't make it either. And I'm not crying "sour grapes."

orion

07-31-2004, 10:16 PM

To Pr Guy (SEO-PR): I take your word as being a mistake. But there is more to the story to be told.

I used to use prweb service (few years ago, several times). It used to be a free press release submission service. I think still is (not sure for a fact since haven't used it for a while. The submitter was suppose to be responsible for including all contact information as well as website information. Since then prweb started a prwebdirect premium service, which is the one apparently sindicating the above press release, since it says at the bottom

"In the US, contact:
Greg Jarboe SEO-PR
+1-978-549-9537
greg.jarboe@seo-pr.com

In Europe, contact: Sylvain Bellaiche Referencement.com
+33 (0) 1 49466004 sylvainb@referencement.com

This release was distributed by PRWeb (http://www.prwebdirect.com) for SEMPO.

SOURCE Search Engine Marketing Professional Organization
Web Site: http://www.WebMama.com"

What about the above contact names? These are SEMPO people, with links to their own sites in a press release that is not about their sites!

But wait. There is more. The above pr was also circulated by

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/7/emw144487.php

If you check this version, the webmama.com hot link is not in the footer. However, it has the following

In the US, contact:
Greg Jarboe
SEO-PR
Phone: 978-549-9537
E-mail: greg.jarboe@seo-pr.com

In Europe, contact:
Sylvain Bellaïche
Referencement.com
Phone: +33 (0) 1 49466004
E-mail: sylvainb@referencement.com

Visit and note the SEO-PR.com and Referencement.com hot links in this version. This doesn't look right. I wonder if each time a press release "about" SEMPO is published these or similar hot links are included. Why doing this? Are you guys trying to drive traffic to these sites via a SEMPO press release? Why not just include a link to the SEMPO site or to a Contacts Page in SEMPO site? I don't believe this is a cheap shot but a serious lack of judgement. If you have an organization putting out press releases (paid or not by their members) promoting other peoples sites, that does not sound right.

I present the facts and posters here decide if they are promoting the SEMPO site and organization or their own sites and image.

Orion

NFFC

07-31-2004, 10:18 PM

>So, blame the PR guy -- not the client -- for this mistake.

Good point, maybe the problems with SEMPO are just a case of bad PR. I would expect the board to look at this matter urgently and take appropiate action.

>and attend a special member-only event hosted by Verizon SuperPages.com

I can almost hear the sound of SEO's lips licking in eagar anticipation.

Just a little tip from a non-PR guy, when you are digging a hole for yourself the most important thing to do is stop digging.

ihelpyou

07-31-2004, 10:30 PM

Nice posts orion and NFFC.

The water seems to be getting mightly high. I should have brought my shorter pants. Well, it's summer, so shorter shorts.

PR-Guy: You will not succeed in driving out or down the search engine marketing "small" businesses. Do what you like and how you like it, but believe me, you will not succeed in your obvious quest. Not even you can spin your way out of things. You should not have posted a thing.

The industry spin by so-called leaders is pathetic.

Go ahead Elizabeth or whoever, delete this post if you wish. I only speak the truth as I see it.

Elisabeth

07-31-2004, 10:59 PM

Go ahead Elizabeth or whoever, delete this post if you wish. I only speak the truth as I see it.

why would I?
we don't play that game here, doug. we don't just go and delete posts by people expressing their opinions.

we expect that most people in this industry are (or should be) mature enough to express their opinions in a professional manner, and for the most part, even in a heated debate such as this one, I'm happy that the majority of posters at the SEW Forums have the ability to remain rational, those (and only those) who can state their opinions and make compelling arguments without making personal attacks have my utmost respect as peers.

... back to the program....

steve sardell

07-31-2004, 11:05 PM

A few months ago, SEMPO started switching gears from recruiting new members and sponsors to providing: (1) members with access to sponsors, (2) information on Search Engine Marketing that members can take back to their clients in the form of new research, (3) time for members to properly network with each other, and (4) marketing campaigns to promote Search Engine Marketing’s value to non-SEM savvy marketers.
Hi Greg,

I can certainly understand the four added goals, but I do not understand the lack of emphasis regarding recruiting. As can be attested by some of the posts in this forum and others, there has been a break down in communication between SEMpo and prospective members. So much so, it does not appear SEMpo wants the $299 type, but prefers to sick with an inner circle and present sponsor funding. Obviously, it is not a money issue or SEMpo would be recruiting like a wild fire. IMHO, some may have lost sight of the fact the small businees owner is the backbone the industry.

projectphp

07-31-2004, 11:16 PM

But I've been surprised -- and disappointed -- by a few people who feel the need to make personal attacks on people who VOLUNTEERED to create an organization -- one that now has 245 members.
There is a common debating trick, that I used frequently, in which you find some small, inconsequential problem the other team has, and make a mountain out of it. They use the word "Maybe", pounce. They get a fact wrong, pounce. Someone, anyone, calls you anything resembling anything personal, pounce.

Why do I mention this? Well, so far we have had several comments made by SEMPO insiders that speak to the "personalness" of the debate (in this case PR Guy). However, having read virtually all the comments in every forum (and there are plenty), I find the personal comments directed towards anyone, not just SEMPO board members but other forum members, few and far between, and usually restricted to small numbers of specific individuals.

In fact, the vast majority of comments directed at people rather than arguments (an Ad Hominem attack) have come directly from the very people that claim to have been victims of personal attacks, or support those that have:
The sensational headlines others reported were nothing but trolling by those with sour grapes...Last thing on this issue: some of this talk and perceived controversy (at least in other forums) I know to be 100% at the direction of certain individuals who have tight alliances (read: WORK) with search engines
(My emphasis added)
These Ad hominem attacks serve no one, and citing them as a defence of SEMPO is an easy out in what is becoming a sea of very real, very specific, and usually constructive criticism.

Beyond that, as I mentioned, where are these persoanl attacks? If previous personal attacks are to be used to make any point whatsoever, coud those personal comments be both referenced and the person making them quoted? If they aren't quoted, all we are left with is innuendo masquerading as fact,further blurring what is already becoming a complex discussion.

While SEMPO has come a long way in its first year, all the Board members that I've talked to believe that the organization has even father to go in the coming year. And that's why they are putting the communications, services, and infrastructure in place to continue the organization’s growth.
Bravo!! Communications infrastructure is exactly what is required.

For mine, communcation, of both the specifics and generalities of the goals of SEMPO, and what actions will be taken, has been a problem SEMPO has had from from day dot. In fact, I commented on this way back on Sep 23 2003 (http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=945&st=45&#entry11043).

Almost one year later and the website still leaves visitors asking questions, despite SEMPO having adequate funds to hire someone to "fix it", communication is still lacking and the questions rasied in this debate have been eerily similar to those made in a thread (almost) one year ago (http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=945).

So can I ask what specific form "...the communications, services, and infrastructure..." will take?

ihelpyou

07-31-2004, 11:29 PM

why would I?
we don't play that game here, doug. we don't just go and delete posts by people expressing their opinions.
Yes Elizabeth, why is right. Surely, you don't believe 'that game' is played elsewhere? If so, show me 'any' posts that ever were deleted. I've seen quite a few posts deleted in one short month so far in here.

I'm happy you allow opinions to be expressed.

It truly pains me that our industry if so full of leaders that only serve their own pockets. I and many others have voiced concerns about SEMPO from day one. You all have continually looked down and said things like.. "it's only Doug', he means zero. I'm hear to tell you that this won't be tolerated anymore. This is a huge fiasco, and board members simply continue to spin the spin while providing absoluting nothing to your members. Jupiter tried to make SEMlist work. It didn't. Now it's SEMPO. It's not. Warnings were given one year ago about a simple yellow page directory of the biggest SEM firms. Have 5 grand? You too can be a Circle Member and be on the front page of SEMPO.org.

Great stuff.

ChicagoSEO

07-31-2004, 11:51 PM

ihelpyou - By your last post, you seem to be positioning yourself for when "it all comes tumbling down" so you can look to be some kind of saviour. Whose interests are you serving? From the looks of your posts here and in other forums, your single focus is to stoke fires and fuel controversy. Who are you helping, exactly?

bethabernathy - It is sad that you spent nearly $300 to join an organization that you seem so determined to defame, for the sole purpose to attend (and probably only to cause more controversy within) their member meeting, and to access and publicly publish their financials. On that note, I took a look at that financials document and it actually looks fairly legitimate, and the notion of a paid employee is not so foreign a concept. Anyone who runs a business knows that organizations have overhead, and their spends appear to be justifiable. However, I'm not sure how your business will justify spending $300 to join a membership for the purpose of "heckling" and scooping documents from an organization that you otherwise would have had no desire to be involved with.

I am not a member of SEMPO, and I agree - the organization has some explaining to do based on the information circulating around on the web.

However, I think the *adults* in this industry are waiting for them to do it in their public statement at next week's conference in San Jose - not flapping lips and fingertips in the trenches of yellow journalism.

ihelpyou

07-31-2004, 11:59 PM

ihelpyou - By your last post, you seem to be positioning yourself for when "it all comes tumbling down" so you can look to be some kind of saviour. Whose interests are you serving? From the looks of your posts here and in other forums, your single focus is to stoke fires and fuel controversy. Who are you helping, exactly?
Thanks for making my point nicely.

Yes, you guessed it, my forums have never actually served the website owners of many for the past 3 years. We are not afraid to stand up to big business and voice the injustices industry leaders seem to want to throw around. So yes, it's so obvious what my forums are all about. They are loaded with "lots" of flashing banners and text ads. Oh yes, anyone viewing can clearly see what Doug's intentions are. It's certainly not to help anyone, OR warn anyone about anything, is it? And yes, it's obvious I will be there when SEMPO falls.

ihelpyou has not had to do much of anything. The board members and leaders have succeeded in doing lots. Doing what? Well, I guess looking at 'all' other forums around town,... not just mine,... it's pretty clear to all who has covered up a hole with dirt. Oh, but I guess I actually had some kind of input in how the other forums post as well?

But you know what? Thanks for your post.

ChicagoSEO

08-01-2004, 12:07 AM

"spin the spin" - your response is a perfect example.

seobook

08-01-2004, 12:10 AM

Yes Elizabeth, why is right. Surely, you don't believe 'that game' is played elsewhere? If so, show me 'any' posts that ever were deleted. I've seen quite a few posts deleted in one short month so far in here.

it is not always what posts that are deleted that matter, its how people do or do not reply that matters as much as anything else.

most SEO forums eventually acquire some sort of stigma or tone about them. I do not want to post personal examples but surely everyone understands branding and that each forum has its own flavor or brand about it.

Its hard to build a large community and keep a neutral stance. that is just human nature.

bethabernathy

08-01-2004, 12:26 AM

bethabernathy - It is sad that you spent nearly $300 to join an organization that you seem so determined to defame, for the sole purpose to attend (and probably only to cause more controversy within) their member meeting, and to access and publicly publish their financials. On that note, I took a look at that financials document and it actually looks fairly legitimate, and the notion of a paid employee is not so foreign a concept.

I am just simply trying to make available data to individuals or groups who seem interested, like myself. I think if you read back and going forward, I am definately interested in a positive resolve to this type of issue. But, I am a data gal, luv numbers, very interested in the law and how again the rules work.

Just an FYI no Defame, no controversy, just want to hear the goods and am hoping for positive interaction. At least on my part that is a given. i have never singled out anyone on these forums and simply am stating BEST BUSINESS PRACTICES. In addition, I have only assumed that the Sempo directors are in the process of making things GOOD.

So, if you want to talk to me, call me on my toll free number, and I will easily explain to you waz iz all about. Just remember, my goals are 0, been there done that, have the skills to share data, recap and to sum it all up. But ... I am very interested in attending the conference and getting very quickly back to my Lake, Dogs, Clients and much more .. :D

orion

08-01-2004, 12:55 AM

Great posts, Beth and Elisabeth. Fair and right to the point.

OK, folks back to the real issues: SEMPO and more recently, the damage control phase they appear to get into.

1. In post #170 of this thread, it was shown a SEMPO press release promoting the site of http://www.webmama.com That press release also appears to promote the image of Ms. Coll.

2. In post #174 The PR-Guy (apparently SEO-PR's Greg) alleges that putting the hot link to webmama.com was a mistake from the sindicating service and not from him. But they did nothing to correct it and others heard about it after post #170.

3. In post #177 I questioned this and discovered they circulated the same press release with links pointing to, not SEMPO, but their own sites. Guess which sites? SEO-PR and Referencement sites. In the same post I raised several fair questions:

a. Why they are promoting their sites (SEO-PR, WebMama, and Referencement) with hot links in press releases that ARE NOT about their sites but allegedly about SEMPO?

b. If SEMPO is putting out press releases (paid or not from the budget of SEMPO), why not put links pointing to SEMPO site or to the Contacts page info of SEMPO?

c. Why promote other members' sites (BTW, members of the "inner circle") through SEMPO press releases? This does not sound right.

Just lack of communication? Just innocent mistakes from experimented marketers? The evidence amounts to the contrary. Everything boils down to, not to mere "lack of communication", as many and some SEMPO members pretend to put it, but to lack of credibility, no more, no less.

Now we have others (PR-Guy, apparently aka SEO-PR's Greg) and supporters coming out with an apparent damage control strategy. Damage Control Managers, follow NFFC advice. As he wisely put it "...when you are digging a hole for yourself the most important thing to do is stop digging.".

Orion

steve sardell

08-01-2004, 01:25 AM

Orion, another well written respectful post. You may have missed your calling as you do have a way of diplomatically getting to the marrow with out chastising, even when it might be deserved.

Having issued more than a few press releases, I would be highly embarassed if when printed they contained something I had not submitted. Sure, they may get edited and abbreviated, but not expanded without my knowledge and consent.

I also do not see the reason for the blatent self promotion with the email link. I would think the address could have been a SEMpo address with an internal forward to rather than ones own company address. The final destination would have been the same and one would have avoided unneeded controversy. JMT

polarmate

08-01-2004, 01:31 AM

Steve, how is it different from the information 'About SEMPO' on the SEMPO web site which is signed in the same manner on this page:
http://www.sempo.org/about-sempo.php

orion

08-01-2004, 01:36 AM

Thanks, Steve.

I forget to mention in post #170 and #174 that as old user of prweb services, I remember that when you submit a press release, they schedule a waiting period by email. They also send you a draft of the press release by email. At least that's the way they use to do things few years ago (not many years). The evidence amounts to a bad picture.

Orion

Jill Whalen

08-01-2004, 01:38 AM

seobook

08-01-2004, 01:45 AM

Aren't we getting a little bit silly now?
Who cares that the press release had webmama or PrWeb or whatever on it?

Well if it is considered a personal attack for people to want to get info from the WebMama site I do not think the conact link info for SEMPO should go to
http://www.webmama.com

Does that have anything to do with anything? It's starting to look like a feeding frenzy in here. :rolleyes:

I believe it does. If you spend money to write promotional press releases they should focus on the organization. If money is being spent to promote the organization it is worth looking over and ensuring that the final product (the end press release) is what one had in mind. Are we to assume that most PR firms and their clients do not look over their work? I know when I submit a press release and get the draft back I take a good look at it before it is released. Often the periods at the end of sentences can break links, etc.

orion

08-01-2004, 01:47 AM

Prweb is the sindicating service utilized, Prweb links are fine. Using SEMPO press releases to drive traffic to particular members site is not and certainly is not silly.

This is about people using press releases of a not-for profit organization to promote their sites and images. When they got caught, they said it was a mistake. When we show they did it again, they get mute.

Certainly is not a silly thing. This is about lack of credibility, not about who put down who, as many pretends to do in this thread. But I welcome your disagreement.

Orion

steve sardell

08-01-2004, 02:34 AM

Who cares that the press release had webmama or PrWeb or whatever on it?

Does that have anything to do with anything
Hi Jill,
IMHO,it has a great deal to do with professionalism, reliability, and credibility. A NFP or NP org is not to be used for self promotion or grandizement. It was a SEMpo press release not an individual or company press release. There-in lies the difference. If the SEMpo link had also been included there would be no need for discusion. Greg has stated it was a mistake and that it will be corrected. It is by no means a feeding frenzy, but rather folks asking for clarification.

stever

08-01-2004, 04:45 AM

Aren't we getting a little bit silly now?

Who cares that the press release had webmama or PrWeb or whatever on it?

Does that have anything to do with anything? It's starting to look like a feeding frenzy in here. :rolleyes:

One of the main objections to SEMPO throughout its existence has been the impression that it exists not to be the industry-leading organisation that it proclaims, but rather to promote the corporate visibility of "faces" on the marketing conference circuit.

As such you may well find the organisation of value, Jill, but many others have and are questioning whether it actually represents their needs and aspirations.

The points that you belittle go precisely to those objections.

It serves both forum "gurus" and certain SEMPO board members ill to dismiss the genuine concerns of both SEMPO ordinary members and potential members, even if they may not have the Olympian insight of the SEM great and good.

After all, if one is going to be an industry leader, shouldn't one have an industry behind one?

fathom

08-01-2004, 05:02 AM

It serves both forum "gurus" and certain SEMPO board members ill to dismiss the genuine concerns of both SEMPO ordinary members and potential members, even if they may not have the Olympian insight of the SEM great and good.

After all, if one is going to be an industry leader, shouldn't one have an industry behind one?

I would say "it does" have the support of the industry. The fact that it is being discussed here and elsewhere by members, and non-members, those involved in the setup, and even people that have nothing to do with SEO/SEM seems to indicate it "is" putting a face to SEO & SEM - within the industry as well as outside the industry.

It's great to say an "organization that represents me to the general public must be flawless"... show any that is.

It's a learning process... and problem-solving makes the process better.

stever

08-01-2004, 05:20 AM

I would say "it does" have the support of the industry.

I'd agree that the concept has a certain degree of support in the industry - much of the discussion has centred around the implementation of the idea in the form of SEMPO.

And definitely the involvement of people like Danny Sullivan and Brett Tabke has made many at least consider the concept of membership in the organisation.

Part of the problem is that SEMPO needs "the industry" to give it clout and respectability, and the industry support will only come when it feels that it needs and is represented by SEMPO.

Nick W

08-01-2004, 05:57 AM

show me 'any' posts that ever were deleted

How about that one titled "Is this Spam" that featured a site Jill had worked on? --- Well, you did ask...

Nick

Marcia

08-01-2004, 07:09 AM

>>deleted

If it's the one I recall, it wasn't deleted altogether, the specifics with the links showing the site and who it belonged to were just edited out. Doesn't bother me to see that; I've done my share of editing snitchers back in my admin & mod days. I don't think public snitching and witch hunts do anyone any good. I think it's destructive for the industry overall and long term.

But that's all off-topic, what's it got to do with SEMPO or the poobahs involved?

seobook

08-01-2004, 07:19 AM

But that's all off-topic, what's it got to do with SEMPO or the poobahs involved?

nothing really, (other than people saying that it was good that all viewpoints could be expressed here) it was just a random tangent. back to the topic at hand.

I am sure it will be a fun SES...

DianeV

08-01-2004, 07:22 AM

Jill, the point being made here is that there are concerns from individuals in the industry regarding an organization that would appear from the outside to represent that industry (the name "Search Engine Marketing Professionals Organization" does imply that, doesn't it?) in educating the public about SEM, but whose actions indicate that it limited its communication even with the bulk of its own members (particularly about important developments), all the while reaping the public relations and financial gains (and non-profit tax benefits) of "representing the industry" for certain of its members.

The press release simply indicates more of the same: that the press release was created to forward the writers' company(ies) under the guise of making announcements about SEMPO. Thus, it is not silly; it is a clue.

The excuse about it being a fairly new organization and thus the lack of communication simply doesn't wash; a group of highly experienced Web folk simply cannot by definition have such a problem. C'mon.

Had SEMPO simply stated that it was not representing the industry, that its purpose was to represent only its members and to generate public relations and consumer education in order to generate customer leads for those members (as it is doing), then there could be no argument. That is, it would simply be a high-profile coalition of paying members with a nicely-done lead generation site. ;-)

Marcia

08-01-2004, 08:19 AM

DianeV
Had SEMPO simply stated that it was not representing the industry, that its purpose was to represent only its members and to generate public relations and consumer education in order to generate customer leads for those members (as it is doing), then there could be no argument. That is, it would simply be a high-profile coalition of paying members with a nicely-done lead generation site. ;-)
But had that been the stated purpose, could it have qualified for non-profit status?

Another thing: I remember the very first *long* forum discussion ever about SEMPO, the bitter controversy that erupted, and the points that were being brought up. Some of those points are the very same ones that are being brought up today - particularly regarding whose needs are and aren't being met and exactly whose interests are being served.

Nothing - and I mean absolutely nothing! - has changed since then, and it was only right after the very first announcement, that very week. And it could have been different; it could have changed. But whatever was said fell on deaf ears.

Had that discussion been allowed to go on to proper fruition and been properly guided toward constructive ends instead of being brought to a halt, and had the SEMPO people listened carefully to that valuable first grassroots input and implemented some of the very wise suggestions that were offered, a lot of the issues that are plaguing it today would not even exist.

qwerty

08-01-2004, 08:49 AM

Marcia, you and I may not be thinking of the same discussion, but I do know that the following was added to their home page in response to one of the early discussions in which I was involved:
SEMPO is an industry organization designed to promote search engine marketing in general, not an accreditation body for SEM firms. Membership in SEMPO is not a guarantee of a particular firm's capabilities, nor does it signify industry approval or disapproval of their practices.
SEMPO's FAQ was also added in response to feedback from people who, like me, felt that the organization was either promoting the wrong image of the industry, or failing to be clear about its mandate.

fathom

08-01-2004, 08:49 AM

And definitely the involvement of people like Danny Sullivan and Brett Tabke has made many at least consider the concept of membership in the organisation.

I look at this from a different perspective.

We all have different beliefs, we all have different approaches to tackle the same problems, we are definitively different whether that be knowledge, skill, use of innovation, or merely from cultural diversity and we will all disagree at one time or another with those that stand firmly side by side on this particular issue.

It has been said that "Danny" (and others) gave SEMPO legitimacy? Why?

Prior to SEMPO forming there was some pretty heated debates at WebmasterWorld and Brett Tabke was one of the loudest voices (and mine) against.

I bring this up simply because Danny and Brett still seem to believe in the ideals of SEMPO.

If there's problems fix them and move on... is better than dwelling on the problem, to make sure they never get resolved.

Part of the problem is that SEMPO needs "the industry" to give it clout and respectability, and the industry support will only come when it feels that it needs and is represented by SEMPO.

As I understand neither Danny nor Brett are practicing SEOs but both have had a major impact on the industry's past developments and continue to play major roles in the industry today.

That's clout in my book.

Furthermore, if they are still supporting SEMPO after this earth shattering scandal broke [sarcasm] - are they less in their legitimacy now or just strong in resolve?

DianeV

08-01-2004, 09:43 AM

But had that been the stated purpose, could it have qualified for non-profit status?

Probably not, but then you can't have it both ways, unless you like visits from the I.R.S. and friends.

I don't think I saw the "original" long forum discussion. However, I have seen discussions about coalitions of Name parties; all have their own issues.

It's too bad this is going the way it is, and it's difficult to tell whether this will be sorted out properly, simply go down the drain, or survive with tainted reputations left and right. Fathom, you may dismiss this as a "nothing" scandal and have a great belief in one or all of the Names; others won't, and it's a small world. Bad public relations are never a good thing.

I don't think it's so much the money paid, the press release, the lack of communication, but that the whole thing -- what it is, what it really is, what it is doing and where it is going -- are of concern to many.

As well, I don't see that ceasing to focus on a problem is a sure road to its resolution; apparently there were concerns before SEMPO was established that have yet to be fixed.

It seems that at this particular time there is a general wish for some kind of industry organization. Yes, there are other SEO organizations, but none that have attempted to seem as if they were representing the industry as a whole nor had the industry's backing; therefore, as previously noted, anyone who does SEO is affected -- and thus, the discussion is more heated than if, say, the question was whether or not to join one of the other organizations.

The problem here, as I see it, is that SEMPO has, at the least, a duality of purposes: (a) a not-for-profit forwarding the marketing message of the industry as a whole which includes reputation of SEO/SEM (but is not taking up some of the more obvious opportunities to bring to the public's attention that incidents such as Traffic Power are not indicative of the industry as a whole), and (b) an organization of SEOs/companies seeking visibility, further credibility in the eyes of the public, and leads for the individual companies based on the concept that the organization represents the industry. I am not sure whether these can coexist, especially to the degree that they do today, where the bulk of the membership (read: "small guys") seems to be out of the loop, and the bulk of the industry is not considered at all. You cannot represent an industry by shutting it out or belittling the "little people" in your own organization. Particularly if it is due to their support that you have built your reputation.

I dunno. I tend to look not at what people say, but at what they do. Talk is cheap; spin can be even cheaper. Bill Slawski at cre8asiteforums (http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=80550#80550) had an interesting take on it.

Nope. The reason that this discussion goes on and on is this:
(1) all SEOs are affected by an organization that seemingly represents them but doesn't;
(2) there is little or no acknowledgement of the communication from SEMPO.
(3) there is no real communication from SEMPO about what, if anything, it is going to do to resolve the problems. Or not.

stever

08-01-2004, 09:47 AM

It has been said that "Danny" (and others) gave SEMPO legitimacy? Why?

Well, that's not exactly what I said, but I agree that others have implied it. My own reaction (and possibly that of others) was to give it more of a chance because I saw that two people whose views I often find interesting were strongly involved in it.

Prior to SEMPO forming there was some pretty heated debates at WebmasterWorld and Brett Tabke was one of the loudest voices (and mine) against.

I don't have that memory of those debates, but since I think some at least were in private forums then they are perhaps better not discussed here.

Furthermore, if they are still supporting SEMPO after this earth shattering scandal broke [sarcasm] - are they less in their legitimacy now or just strong in resolve?

They have their view, you have yours, we all have our own - doesn't mean any of us are more or less resolute or legitimate!

The point I was trying to make about the industry - and especially about an organisation devoted to representing that industry and the people working within it - was that without at least tacit support from a majority of those people (whether they are members or not) it will not achieve the level of respectability and "weight" that similar organisations have in other bricks-and-mortar industries.

If an organisation just exists with visible industry "leaders", it can exert a valuable and influential role (à la Zeldman) but it wasn't my understanding of what SEMPO was trying to do.

Black_Knight

08-01-2004, 10:26 AM

We are "working to increase awareness and promote the value of Search Engine Marketing worldwide."
That's what I hear. But it isn't what I, and many others, are honestly and earnestly telling you we are seeing.

What we are seeing is "The Self Preservation Society", and in that this differs from what we are told are the objectives, some of us are feeling rather like someone is trying to patronize us.
Our sponsors have turned to SEMPO members as sources to advise and help structure new products and sales/client services models.
Shouldn't they be turning to SEM's worldwide? Stop promoting yourselves and start promoting the industry. The stated objective of SEMPO is to generate increased awareness and acceptance of SEM itself, not of SEMPO. There's a difference there that seems to elude the writers of most SEMPO releases and statements.

I don't need a lead-generating organization, and SEMPO is not supposed to be such. SEMPO is supposed to help SEMs whether they are members or not. It is that unselfish attitude and generosity that I want to support in an organization, and frankly, I haven't seen even the faintest sign of it - yet.

However, as a long-term supporter of fellow SEOs, SEMs and the industry in general, happy to give advice and help freely for many years, in forums, articles, and the welcome opportunities to speak at SES, I am very keen to support my Industry. My doubt so far is whether SEMPO understands how to do this without promoting itself as the first point of call.

In fact, all of us believe the entire search industry as well as SEMPO members will benefit from all the activities mentioned above. As one of my favorite Presidents observed when I was much younger, "A rising tide lifts all boats."
That is supposed to be the primary objective, and not a side-benefit. Many of the criticism I have seen are that it does seem that SEMPO is designed to load up certain tables, and so create plenty of table scraps for the wider industry. But that is not good enough.

Brett Tabke and Danny Sullivan have both done amazing things to promote the industry. They have each created resources that are famed far outside of the industry itself, and so help spread the word about it. Frankly, from what I've seen so far, SEMPO could have donated even a small amount of funds to Webmaster World and done far more to help the industry at large than anything else it has acheived in a whole year. That's not an attack, it is simply the truth.

Take a poll: Who has done more for the SEM Industry at large, worldwide in the past year, WMW or SEMPO?

Please, do that. Then learn why and act upon it.

SEMPO is right to stay clear of asserting standards and being that kind of trade association. Instead, as I commented at SES London, it needs to brand itself more as a marketing board - you know, like the meat marketing board that promotes the buying of meat without ever mentioning any specific vendor. That's what I want to support.

orion

08-01-2004, 11:56 AM

To Jill:

As I mentioned, I welcome disagreements to my posts. I simply present the facts and let others to decide, agree or disagree and try to be polite to the best of my little abilities. Now folks, back to the real issues.

When the SEW started back in June, SEW posters started to include at the bottom of their posts hot links to their sites. Nobody does it now because SEW editors made clear the practice is not appropriate. User's profiles already include all the necessary contact information. A poster can include a link to his/her site only as part of a post and provided the link adds value or is relevant to the discussion, benefits the readers, etc... I know some forums allow users include a footer with name and hot links to the posters' sites, but here in this forum is different. It is also different when we talk about press releases.

"A silly" link in a press release when compared with the glass of problems SEMPO is having (in terms of lack of credible leadership and so much money allocated for Ms Coll salary and other serious issues raised in this thread) may look "silly", but is not. In this post I will elaborate on this issue.

ABOUT HATS

Peoples wearing hats in their own enterprises or bussiness, when they join a board of an organization (non/for profit) they should wear a different hat at the other organizations. SEMPO used PRWeb and their premium service PRWebDirect to circulate a press release about SEMPO. If the press release was about SEO-PR or webmama or other site, I would not have put into question the pr.

But that was not the case. They simply signed a SEMPO press release wearing the wrong hats. They should have signed something like "Joe...bla, bla.. position at SEMPO, bla, bla, http://www.sempo.org, bla, bla..." that is, including name, title and contact info of the SEMPO site. They elect not to do that but to sign with their own sites and email info and hot links to their personal sites. Now that is were the problem resides: wearing the wrong hats. I claim there is more to the story... Keep reading this post...

ABOUT BRANDING

SEMPO emails were distrisbuted using the premium service of PRWeb, PRWebDirect, which according to their site (http://www.prwebdirect.com) they distribute to over 100,000 industry contacts and I quote:

"Below are 50 distribution points selected at random from our media database of over 100,000 contacts, industry analysts and freelance journalists."

What this means is that each time you refresh their page, they show a random list of 50 media powerhouses. For a sample they have names like

Boston Herald
Topix.net
MSN News
PBS
Fox
Yahoo News
MSNBC
Chicago Sun Times
Houston Chronicle
MSN Money
AP Digital

etc, ......etc....etc... keep reading my "silly" post...

I remember Marcia wisely saying in post #16 of this thread(http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=135&highlight=signatures) that "branding is powerful". Using SEMPO press releases for branding your own business is a no-no.

Since the individuals involved in this comedy are experienced marketers, it appears they knew what they were doing. So, a single press release get a lot of exposure. Now, imagine how much this can do for your personal contact info and link to your personal site in a SEMPO press release. Silly? The evidence amount to the contrary. It is all about wearing wrong hats and branding.

ABOUT CONFLICT OF INTERESTS

But wait, there is more... The PRWeb site says and I quote:

"This new service maximizes online distribution by incorporating PR Web staff experience and expertise in submitting, scheduling and optimizing distribution. PR Web Direct offers additional services that are unavailable through our standard PR Web distribution. These added services include same day distribution, a simplified insertion process handled by PR Web professionals, enhanced priority placement on PR Web and the high visibility eMediawire as well as other valuable offerings."

Now at the top of the PRWebDirect site there is this link http://www.prwebdirect.com/aboutsep.php Click on it. It shows you that the SEO-PR site (yeah, the same PR-Guy site) is having a business relationship with PRWebDirect. The page says in part and I quote:

"Optimizing: SEO-PR gets to know your business and understand your target audiences, whether it's journalists, consumers, business-to-business customers, or investors.

1. We conduct keyword research to find at least two relevant search terms that your target audiences are likely to use for a news search.

2. We edit your press release and optimize it with the relevant search terms to give it more staying power in the news search engines.

3. We also build links from your press release to relevant content on your website."

Note that the SEO-PR people say "we edit your press release..."

With regard to the first press release (see post #170 and #174) they claim it was an error of PRWeb including the hot link to webmama.com site. Evidently, they were in control of the press release edition and distribution (via PRWeb) from the get-go. The allegation that this was a mistake is not supported by the evidence or amount to Truth. You decide if now this sounds like conflicts of interests or not. Jill, is this silly?

Case close. Its about wearing the wrong hats, branding, conflict of interests. All these things boil down to lack of credibility. Silly? Tomorrow at San Jose, I hope someone raise the above issues at their little meeting.

Orion

Jill Whalen

08-01-2004, 12:10 PM

I think that Mike brought up some very important issues regarding SEMPO. And I think that by now concentrating on links in press releases, it undercuts those very important things.

I have no allegience to SEMPO other than being a member at the lowest level, and knowing most of the board members on a personal level. I am also very good friends with Mike Grehan and have the same concerns he does.

I am simply tired of seeing things get out of hand at forums, when all of this will be discussed in detail (I imagine) at Monday's meeting.

But feel free to carry on with your speculation. I'll wait to get complete story at the meeting.

NFFC

08-01-2004, 12:24 PM

>I'll wait to get complete story at the meeting.

Which, if you had bothered to read the thread, is one of the main complaints of both members and non-members alike. There is a lack of commuincation from the SEMPO board, it seems they have yet to discover the power of email, being required to attend a meeting that may be 1000's of miles away just to find out what is happening is laughable.

orion

08-01-2004, 12:26 PM

To Jill:

There is nothing to speculate about. Those are the facts. They claim it was a minor mistake. It wasn't. They blame PRWeb. We found they (SEO-PR) have a business relationship with them to "optimize" and "edit" press releases.

I do agree with you in one thing: compared with the other huge problems we have already discussed, it does not make this the #1 SEMPO problem, but signals what SEMPO board is made of.

Now about the "silly" links: Each link is multiplied by 100,000 "silly" links in media outlets across the Nation. Their own numbers.

Orion

PS. This PS added at 12:27 PM my local time. Visit SEMPO pr page and you will see the same actors are signing SEMPO press releases in the same way. So if they put out just 10 prs it amounts to 1 Million links pointing to their own sites. Now, that's what I call mastering traffic-driven links.

The PR Guy

08-01-2004, 01:28 PM

We are working to remove the version of the press release distributed via PR Newswire. After talking with the folks at PR Web, they sent the original version to PR Newswire -- and PR Newsire, not us, added the link to WebMama's site. So, things go bump in the night -- but we'll fix it.

As for my contact information at the bottom of SEMPO press releases, that's how people can reach me. I don't have a SEMPO email address -- and SEMPO doesn't have a full-time PR person. We can change that, too, if necessary, but many PR agencies include their email address at the bottom of press releases for their clients. In my 23 years of PR experience, that is normal practice. But, old practices can change.

I guess that I should be happy that so many people are reading our press releases so closely. And feedback is always welcome -- and continues to be.

As for the search engine promotion platform that SEO-PR is working with PR Web to create -- and will unveil at SES this coming week -- I should point out that it is an open platform. Search engine marketing firms that don't use SEO-PR's services will also be able to use the PR Web platform -- and many have already signed up to do so. Plus, PR Web is working with its competitor, PR Newswire, to offer distribution through that channel as an option. If we haven't worked out all the details on the hand off just yet, our apologies. We are beta testing to ensure that this goes smoothly for others. We used the SEMPO release to check the process.

All in all, this forum shouldn't become an "us versus them" kind of thing. It is all "us." We're all members of the search industry. We should all benefit from industry growth. But as my favoriate President also once said, "Life is not fair." It is true that some will benefit more than others. But, let's ask ourselve this honest question: Who is contributing the most time and energy to building SEMPO into a successful organization? It's members or it's non-members? So, if the members benefit more, should we be surprised? Or is that a sign of the organization's success?

At SES in Boston a year and a half ago, I raised my hand when they asked for volunteers to help with PR. (Actually, Dan Bricklin suggested that I volunteer, because we had worked together at Lotus back in the 1980s and he thought I could make a contribution.) I don't regret volunteering. I think SEMPO is growing into a powerhouse organization. One that is having impact. But one that will need more volunteers to take it to the next level.

So, I hope to see you at the SEMPO meeting Monday night. For those who can't make it, we plan to issue a couple more press releases to get the message out -- to the industry as a whole as well as to the members.

seobook

08-01-2004, 01:56 PM

But, let's ask ourselve this honest question: Who is contributing the most time and energy to building SEMPO into a successful organization? It's members or it's non-members? So, if the members benefit more, should we be surprised? Or is that a sign of the organization's success?
What defines success?

and... If the actions of members make non members want to stay non members then you really are not helping yourself much because as you said
I think SEMPO is growing into a powerhouse organization. One that is having impact. But one that will need more volunteers to take it to the next level.

For those who can't make it, we plan to issue a couple more press releases to get the message out -- to the industry as a whole as well as to the members.
wouldn't a feedback blog be better? something where if the members that could not attend had questions they could ask them. many people will likely have the same types of questions and communication will need to be a two way street if SEMPO is to have any hope at successfully spreading.

bethabernathy

08-01-2004, 02:00 PM

Lastly, I would invite everyone to imagine building a nonprofit organization. The amount of work, detail, commitment involved is nontrivial. Now try to imagine building that organization with 8-10 type A personalities that all run successful businesses themselves and are accustomed to charging $300-$1000 an hour for work. Just getting everyone on the phone together would be a challenge. What I am asking, is to cut them some slake to get things going.

This was posted at:
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum5/5022-3-10.htm

This is my response, if they don't have the time, either make the time, or quickly find individuals who can do the job correctly. Why in the world would any of these people go ahead and take on additional responsibilities i.e. wearing 3 hats, President, Chair Person and Executive Director. I'll be honest, I am not sure what each position requires, but it would seem this could be looked upon as a conflict of interest as can you operate objectively assuming these positions at the same time?

In this same post he states "The reimbursement for the directors time was 100% at the bequest of the board and I believe it was published in the minutes available to members(?)." Note the (?), but I have been looking around on the site and the members sections, but cannot find any minutes. I would like to see those, if anyone can provide them that would be helpful.

So, the other issue is this, B. Coll said Sempo's Birthday was this last week, but the profit and loss statement indicate the years start was April 2003. If the actual start date was in April 2003 then wouldn't their Annual Report have to be available at this time? Even though it would most likely not include anything about the stipend as that didn't occur until 5/15/04.

orion

08-01-2004, 02:22 PM

To SEO-PR Guy:

I will try to be fair with you to the best of my abilities.

1. "We are working to remove the version of the press release distributed via PR Newswire."

I applaud this decision and give you credit for that. Fair is fair.

2. "After talking with the folks at PR Web, they sent the original version to PR Newswire -- and PR Newsire, not us, added the link to WebMama's site."

Sorry. I must speak my heart here. This talks tons about this press release service they provide. Since when press release services are suppose to ADD information to a press release, worse without consulting their clients? This is a no-no.

3. "I don't have a SEMPO email address"

More than a year later after the inception of SEMPO and you guys don't have one? Please get one. An organization that promotes the industry should do that for their core circle. Most ISP provide them for free.

4. "and SEMPO doesn't have a full-time PR person. We can change that, too, if necessary,"

Say what? Year later after the inception of SEMPO and you guys don't have one? That's organization. "We can change that, too". Please do so, a year later.

5. "...But, old practices can change."

I agree.

6. "Who is contributing the most time and energy to building SEMPO into a successful organization? It's members or it's non-members? "

Statements like this make things "us versus them", still I agree with you, this is not about us vs them. Don't make it in the first place.

7. "It's members or it's non-members? So, if the members benefit more, should we be surprised?"

The problem with this is that with each press release you are promoting your sites and individuals. Now we have 100,000 links pointing to webmama.com, talking about Ms. Coll and pointing to SEO-PR and Referencement business sites.

Only because pr firms do things like these with their clients doesn't mean SEMPO press releases should be used to promote particular sites. This practice provides an unfair advantage to the sites in question.

Orion

steve sardell

08-01-2004, 02:47 PM

Hi Greg,

Thank you for your clarification regarding the email link.As for my contact information at the bottom of SEMPO press releases, that's how people can reach me. I don't have a SEMPO email address -- and SEMPO doesn't have a full-time PR person. We can change that, too, if necessary, but many PR agencies include their email address at the bottom of press releases for their clients. In my 23 years of PR experience, that is normal practice. But, old practices can change And yes, many do realize PR firms will include their own contact information when issuing a press release. If it had been for the Red Cross, a like non profit, or a paying company there would be no issue. These releases, however, are for SEMpo and many see the link as self promotion. It is too simple to get a SEMpo address and have it forwarded. Then the link would have reinforced SEMpo.

Sure, it may be construed as a minor point in the whole scheme, but like the art of pointilism these small little dots add to a visual of the whole picture. It was my impression SEMpo was created for the betterment of the whole industry, and not the select. Yet, for some small timers this is contray to what we are witnessing. I know it is not your bailiwick, but the link at the bottom of this page http://www.sempo.org/about-sempo.php reinforces that view. It is not a matter of sour grapes as I do agree members should benefit more than nonmembers, but it is a matter of how that benfit is derived that prevent some from joining.

To retain the president's grass analogy, for a blade of grass to grow one has to be careful of the weeds,and at times they need to be plucked.

Greg I do not envy your curent position, but as you know when in PR there are times when damage control can seem like one is scaling an oil slicked ninety degree cliff.

Marcia

08-01-2004, 03:01 PM

The PR Guy:

All in all, this forum shouldn't become an "us versus them" kind of thing. It is all "us." We're all members of the search industry. We should all benefit from industry growth.
There's been no sign of this forum being "us versus them" - but who is the "we?" For those who missed it, and The_PR_Guy, I think it's safe to assume you haven't seen it, that is exactly what this thread in the Padded Room is alluding to:

NFFC, post #20 here

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=429

I know we are in the padded room but the subject has a very serious undertone. In effect I am asking who do we allow to define the space that webmaster/SEO's operate in?

Is it the latest SEM trade club, large scale SEM companies, marketing agencies and maybe even forum owners?

I'm saying no to that.

Imho the power to shape our trade lies with the independent webmaster/SEO, to us what you would refer to as "organic" results are just results, they don't need a special name. Its_the_other_stuff_that_needs_a_name.
And from post #27:

I can't stress strongly enough that there is not just *one* industry or one "space." Even if we were to concede that there's one industry in a broad, general sense of the word, we'd have to define it as consisting of a bourgeousie and a proletariat. Because that is the truth.

The names/companies mentioned may well be part of that that first group and resolve to that one entity referred to, but that doesn't mean it holds true for everyone. There are those who don't know who all those people and companies are and furthermore don't give a hoot and a holler if they ever do.
You see, there really isn't "one" group in the industry - and there's a world of difference between the two. I believe what a lot of the deep, serious questioning is about regarding who's benefitting from SEMPO has nothing to do with non-members, but whether it's the bourgeousie or the proletariat within SEMPO who are the ultimate beneficiaries of whatever benefits there may be. Granted, benefit is due those who have expended considerable effort; but what's being questioned is what the benefit is for the rank and file. One of the facts of life is that circles tend to be closed forms - especially inner circle.

There is a SEMPO crowd and a non-SEMPO crowd. And there is a conference crowd and a non-conference crowd. And then there are those individuals who are strong proponents of online communities - let's call it the "forum crowd."

However, if there is a community that is to be open, welcoming and comfortable for *everyone* - bourgeoisie and proletariat alike - the latter referring to the independent webmaster/seo who chooses to remain such, then the differences between and among the different groups and individuals need to be recognized and seriously considered for the sake of establishing unity of purpose and avoidance of unhealthy divisions. I've seen what those can do, both offline and online.
An organization that proports to represent "the industry," including the PR people or person, if it's not to be all PR and spin, needs to become at least somewhat familiar with the mentality, needs and interests of all those who actually do comprise "the industry."

seobook

08-01-2004, 03:11 PM

I know it is not your bailiwick, but the link at the bottom of this page http://www.sempo.org/about-sempo.php reinforces that view.

normally a link at the bottom of the page which says "site webmaster" would be an email link. not on SEMPO though, that link looks like this

Site Webmaster:
BridgePose.com

and BridgePose is a one page site (2 pages if you count the contact form on the second page) with 0 PageRank. why not just give people a contact email address or put a form on the SEMPO site vice creating a new site like that? (that particular site looks to only be a few months old anyway as I think it was registered in March or April of this yr)

steve sardell

08-01-2004, 03:16 PM

Hi Aaron,

I was referring to the link at the bottom of the mission statement letter.

dannysullivan

08-01-2004, 03:49 PM

I bring this up simply because Danny and Brett still seem to believe in the ideals of SEMPO.
If there's problems fix them and move on... is better than dwelling on the problem, to make sure they never get resolved.
I think SEMPO is still trying to figure out its ideals, and there's obviously a lot of work still to be done. But I definitely believe in the idea of SEMPO, of an industry group that can work to help SEMs of all types. If anything, I hope all this discussion will help SEMPO better examine what its next moves can be.

Overall, I think there's been a lot of good suggestions and discussion. Issue like wearing the proper "hat" when speaking for SEMPO, ensuring that it is the industry being promoted rather than SEMPO itself, improving communication ... these are all great. I'm looking forward to Monday not to see if there are big fireworks but because we're clearly going to get some new directions and ideas coming out of it.

orion

08-01-2004, 04:59 PM

To Danny:

"Issue like wearing the proper "hat" when speaking for SEMPO, ensuring that it is the industry being promoted rather than SEMPO itself, improving communication ... these are all great."

Danny, I applaud this post. But the problem is that we are here finding things and only then SEMPO folks come with explanations; ie., no transparency at all. We found out about too many lack of judgements and clear conflict of interests and hard to buy justifications.

The obvious things about wearing proper hats is a serious symptomatic thing. To top off, and thanks to Steve Sardell, (http://www.sempo.org/about-sempo.php) people here are learning things like that the SEMPO About page is signed as follow

"Barbara Coll
CEO, WebMama.com Inc."

And why SEMPO has added the following link, as Aaron (seobook, post #220) excellently points out? (Thanks, Aaron)

Site Webmaster:
BridgePose.com

Clicking on this link sends users to a page promoting seo marketing services. Again, we see a trend here: These people simply are inclined to promote their own private hats.

Signing and placing links here and there with their own business firms, in SEMPO mission statement and SEMPO press releases (see post #170 and subsequents) with hot links duplicated by the thousand across media outlets) is not a "silly" thing as Jill and others seem to believe. It may not amount to SEMPO Priority #1 but definitely it should not be brush it off with "silly" labels.

When we see a not-for profit organization that is IRS Tax protected, promoting other people's business through media outlets things can get really deep. I'm trying to be as polite and fair as possible, but the picture is niether new nor pretty.

It took someone like Mike Grehan to points out the obvious to those SEMPO insiders that apparently were not able to see what was going on or apparently preferred to look the other way. I'm not saying this as an accussation but simply as how things look from the outside to others like me.

Sure, if they fix things and get rid of those responsible of SEMPO current lack of credibility, sure why not give an improved SEMPO a chance?

Orion

Black_Knight

08-01-2004, 05:37 PM

I definitely believe in the idea of SEMPO, of an industry group that can work to help SEMs of all types. If anything, I hope all this discussion will help SEMPO better examine what its next moves can be.
Well said.

At the end of the day, one thing all this attention shows is that there is great and sincere interest in an organization that can create greater awareness of the benefits of SEM as a fully integrated part of the wider field of marketing itself.

SEMPO isn't yet that organization, but if it can take heed and be lead by demand, it could be. There's a lot of constructive criticism available, here and elsewhere, to help forge an organization that we can all at least feel comfortable with, and that many of even the critics here could actively support.

The PR Guy

08-01-2004, 05:37 PM

David McInnis of PR Web informs me that PR Newswire has acknowledged the error on their part and reissued the release. You can find it at http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-01-2004/0002222558&EDATE= -- and to quote another President, feel free to "Trust, but verify."

dannysullivan

08-01-2004, 05:44 PM

It took someone like Mark Grehan to points out the obvious to those SEMPO insiders that apparently were not able to see what was going on or apparently preferred to look the other way. I'm not saying this as an accussation but simply as how things look from the outside to others like me.
Actually, plenty of people have been saying all types of things to SEMPO and about SEMPO along these lines for some time.

Issues about why they have links to Circle membes on the home page, for example -- that's been forum fodder for ages. It's been derided by some as some type of link farm system or PR selling practically from the day it begin. I don't believe that's the intent -- but the point is, there's been no lack of people asking about this and poking at it in public forums.

There's also been a ton of discussion on how people might think SEMPO is an accrediation body -- that was also forum fodder. And that's something that SEMPO worked to correct rather quickly, getting a FAQ up and lots of disclaimers within days of that issue being raised in terms of the member directory and RFP proposal, if I recall.

I'd mentioned earlier that I'd previously sent the entire board a message a few weeks ago saying they really needed to look into the SEM reputation problem. Apparently, this is something they've been talking about since then in terms of how best to go forward.

I am in no way excusing the clear failure that many people are noting in other areas. SEMPO members shouldn't have to be learning about things via forums. The organization clearly needs to sharpen its focus and also ensure that the message is about SEM, rather that just SEMPO or individuals involved with SEMPO. The criticism of this is all valid. And Mike's article has served as a very public wake up call for the group's leaders.

I spoke with one board member last night. One of my suggestions was that perhaps there simply needs to be individual and corporate memberships only, to help eliminate the "elite" feel that some find currently with SEMPO's various levels. Part of the reason for those higher levels, by the way, was to help raise more money for research other other things TBA. Well, if it does turn out that research is needed, then perhaps companies can separately choose to sponsor that.

As for the PR side, another idea that came up was that SEMPO might run its own member forums, to help members communicate better and explore ideas. And it could be that if there is a press article that comes up, SEMPO could quickly poll its members so as to provide a "SEMPO" view on a particular issue, such as a trademark policy.

To me, it all comes back to the organization being driven by its members. Until now, things have revolved mostly around meetings at SES (and I think maybe one at PubConference). Those meeting have been largely open to anyone and really more update and recruitment oriented, rather than involving members.

A good shift might be to get into more virtual meetings and a stronger committee based approach. Lots of communication, through its own forums or mailing lists. Lots of drawing from members to be actively involved on committees and sending out what they are working on.

Definitely it should not be brush it off with "silly" labels.
Jill made this comment. She's a regular SEMPO member, but she wasn't speaking on behalf of the entire group or the board to dismiss the concerns. So I wouldn't attribute that to SEMPO.

I think Jill was simply expressing that there has been some small feeling of "witch hunt" in some of this thread, and the dissection of the release felt like that to her. I'd agree. At times, it has felt borderline frenzy. I am NOT dismissing the valid concerns, believe me. It's just there's a lot of pent up emotions and real frustrations that are also coming out.

The subsequent posts people have made about the release I think have done a great job of illustrating that indeed, this is another problem that SEMPO needs to examine. The release dissection to me is definitely relevant -- and I'd bet that even Jill would agree people have brought up some valid points. But I think here "I'm waiting for Monday" comment is also really valid. Everyone should definitely have things they want to raise on Monday or get someone to raise on their behalf -- and with luck, we'll see some real positive change coming from that.

NFFC

08-01-2004, 05:44 PM

Mr McInnis still needs to sort the footer out.

[never and I mean ever......]

orion

08-01-2004, 06:04 PM

To Danny:

1. "Jill made this comment. She's a regular SEMPO member, but she wasn't speaking on behalf of the entire group or the board to dismiss the concerns. So I wouldn't attribute that to SEMPO."

Neither me. I understood exactly what she was saying and their reply to my post.

2. "The subsequent posts people have made about the release I think have done a great job of illustrating that indeed, this is another problem that SEMPO needs to examine. The release dissection to me is definitely relevant -- and I'd bet that even Jill would agree people have brought up some valid points."

I applaud that, Danny. Thanks. Again see below my response to SEO-PR Guy. Take care of the following as well:

To SEO-PR Guy:

1. I applaud the correction. But how about this second version?

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/7/emw144487.php

Why include hot links pointing to your site and the Referencement sites replicated by the thousands across media outlets?
Why still signing SEMPO press releases with the wrong "hats"?

When the press releases will be signed with the righ "hats" with contact info from SEMPO contacts page? Why wait to hiring a pr guy to do that?

Orion

bethabernathy

08-01-2004, 06:05 PM

I guess it would be to late to set up a conference call number so that people could call in and listen to the Sempo meeting? Those are pretty easy to set up.

Chris_D

08-01-2004, 06:59 PM

Hope the meeting goes well. Like many of the 25% of members who are non USA based - I won't be there.

A webcast could have also been an option. I would certainly expect minutes to be issued in a timely manner from this meeting.....

Jill Whalen

08-01-2004, 07:12 PM

I'm actually on my way to San Jose right now, but have a delayed flight. Figured it was worth the $7.95 for wireless access at the airport to see what was new since I left home!

I think Jill was simply expressing that there has been some small feeling of "witch hunt" in some of this thread, and the dissection of the release felt like that to her. I'd agree. At times, it has felt borderline frenzy. I am NOT dismissing the valid concerns, believe me. It's just there's a lot of pent up emotions and real frustrations that are also coming out.

Thank you, Danny, that's exactly right.

I'm not dismissing valid concerns either. I have millions of them when it comes to SEMPO.

The subsequent posts people have made about the release I think have done a great job of illustrating that indeed, this is another problem that SEMPO needs to examine. The release dissection to me is definitely relevant -- and I'd bet that even Jill would agree people have brought up some valid points. But I think here "I'm waiting for Monday" comment is also really valid. Everyone should definitely have things they want to raise on Monday or get someone to raise on their behalf -- and with luck, we'll see some real positive change coming from that.

Yes, I do agree. It's just the frenzy part that I found very distasteful. As one who's been on the other end of the feeding frenzies, I've seen it get out of hand many times.

SEMPO has their work cut out for themselves this Monday, and moving forward. But, let's see how they handle it, and what they say. I realize not everyone can get to the meeting in SJ, but I'm sure it will be thoroughly reported on.

searchengineblog.com

08-01-2004, 09:09 PM

Hope the meeting goes well. Like many of the 25% of members who are non USA based - I won't be there.
I'd agree. At times, it has felt borderline frenzy

Hope this satire adds some levity :)

View from the SEM proletariat. (http://www.searchengineblog.com/san-jose.htm)

thejenn

08-01-2004, 09:16 PM

Checking before packing to head to San Jose, I see this is still a hot topic... so before I go, I'd like to toss out a few more cents on a few more issues...

Clicking on this link sends users to a page promoting seo marketing services. Again, we see a trend here: These people simply are inclined to promote their own private hats.

Signing and placing links here and there with their own business firms, in SEMPO mission statement and SEMPO press releases (see post #170 and subsequents) with hot links duplicated by the thousand across media outlets) is not a "silly" thing as Jill and others seem to believe. It may not amount to SEMPO Priority #1 but definitely it should not be brush it off with "silly" labels.

No, it's not silly, it's the way things are done all over the place. As a news editor, I receive press releases on a regular basis, as part of an integrated marketing firm, we issue them on a regular basis. You know what...the contact information in pretty much every release I've received or sent has the personal contact information of the person writing the release. As Greg pointed out, that's pretty standard operating procedure.

As for the webmaster link...how many sites have you seen that have a little "Web Site Designed by:" style link on the bottom? Do you get upset every time you see one of those? If not, you need to think about why this one bothers you so much. Is it because the people involved *happen* to be members of SEMPO? If they weren't SEMPO members, would you still be upset that they were doing things the same way they might for any other client?

Now, I don't think the above negates many of the other excellent points that have been brought up in the forums around the Web. I think what it really boils down to is that the spark created by Mike's article turned something that was already smoldering in the minds of many into a bonfire that attracted the entire industry. The complaints and points brought up in this and other threads doesn't contain much that hasn't already been discussed via emails, phone, or around the bar at the conferences. It just prompted a lot of people to put their views more out in the open, rather than to share them with a select few individuals. That's not a bad thing, but as many have said, it needs to be kept to a level that encourages debate and not name calling or mudslinging.

I've not been a big fan of SEMPO from the start and have been critical of many things about the organization. That said, I do very sincerely hope that they pull things together and work out their issues because the industry needs an organization behind it.

I'm not a member, so unless they are allowing press access, I won't make it to the meeting. But, I will be curious to see if the answers and discussions that take place there are satisfactory to the members.

Incubator

08-01-2004, 09:31 PM

Hello, Although Im not a memeber , I just recieved this from PR web / SEP-PR :

FROM: Greg Jarboe, Jamie O'Donnell, and David McInnisDATE: July 30, 2004

PR Web and SEO-PR will have a booth at the Search Engine Strategies Conference & Expo next week in San Jose. Please drop by to say "hello" and learn about how our new search engine promotion partner programs can help you broaden your range of services.

We will also be distributing three news releases next week about our search engine promotion platform as well as our initial partners.

You can preview them at:

PR Web Unveils Advanced News Search Engine Promotion Services from SEO-PR (http://searchenginepromotion.prweb.com/pr/platform.php)

PR Web and SEO-PR Announce 25 Search Engine Promotion Partners (http://searchenginepromotion.prweb.com/pr/partners.php)

PR Web and SEO-PR Offer Search Engine Promotion Partners Option of Using ClickTracks Web Analytics (http://searchenginepromotion.prweb.com/pr/clicktracks.php)

In addition, Greg will be presenting a Southwest Airlines case study on Wednesday, August 4, from 1:45 to 3:15 p.m. during the session on Balancing Organic & Paid Listings. He will also be presenting two other case studies on Thursday, August 5, from 1:00 to 2:15 p.m. during the session on Public Relations Via Search Engines. If you can, sit in to see how search engine promotion is working for a wide variety of companies.

If you would like to schedule a meeting during the show, please call Jamie's cell phone (415-606-5914). We are looking forward to talking with you about our new services and programs.

Thank you SEMPO for sending this to me. As i am more concerned about the Canadian input to the industry ...this is a good sign for me to see...

Cheers SEMPO

WC

orion

08-01-2004, 09:31 PM

To Jill:

1. "I'm not dismissing valid concerns either."

Then you should not have labeled my concerns as "silly" and later in a second post call the post as mere "speculations" without knowing all the facts. The truth is this was an old press release from 07-28-04 issued by the usual suspects. Posters here and possibly some SEMPO members found about it after we expose it. SEO-PR fix it afterwords and after the facts. And by the way...

To SEO-PR Guy:

Why you guys are not taking care of and fix this other copy of the same press release?

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/07-28-2004/0002220027&EDATE=

The webmama.com link and your wrong hat signature is still there.

Orion

orion

08-01-2004, 10:19 PM

To TheJenn:

1. "No, it's not silly, it's the way things are done all over the place. As a news editor, I receive press releases on a regular basis, as part of an integrated marketing firm, we issue them on a regular basis. You know what...the contact information in pretty much every release I've received or sent has the personal contact information of the person writing the release. As Greg pointed out, that's pretty standard operating procedure. As for the webmaster link...how many sites have you seen that have a little "Web Site Designed by:" style link on the bottom? Do you get upset every time you see one of those? If not, you need to think about why this one bothers you so much. Is it because the people involved *happen* to be members of SEMPO? If they weren't SEMPO members, would you still be upset that they were doing things the same way they might for any other client? "

TheJenn, you are talking about different things. I think you should read previous post since #170 up to the present one. Here we brought to the attention the fact that others are using SEMPO About page mission statement, and SEMPO press releases to promote their own business with hot links. We are talking about a non profit organization used by others to promote their own "hats". Each time one of such links is out in a press release it is multiplied by 100,000 (PRWeb own numbers). Yes is an unfair advantage to those sites.

In Danny's previous posts (#222 and #226) he recognizes SEMPO people wearing the proper hats is a serious thing and very relevant. He thanks us for dissecting the press releases being put out. The above is a serious thing that should not be allowed.

Orion

PS. Sorry for editing several times this post.

simi

08-01-2004, 11:47 PM

Those meeting have been largely open to anyone and really more update and recruitment oriented, rather than involving members.

From SEMPO's site:

SEMPO Returns to SES San Jose!
SEMPO will hold a members-only meeting on Monday, August 2nd, at 5:30 p.m. Please join us to hear the latest on trends in SEM, benefits and resources available for members, and to spend time interacting with your fellow members and our sponsors.

I don't see anything posted right next to that stating: "Learn more about SEMPO at our open-to-anyone meeting?"

I've been reading all of these post but wonder why SEMPO and SES seem to go hand in hand.

I understand that SEMPO needs a venue to expose whatever they don't want to expose. There are reps from the search engines and search engine marketers, so it seems a good starting point, but from what I have been reading, it seems that the only way to find out anything about what SEMPO is doing from the SEMPO people themselves is to visit SES. "This is what we said at SES, this is what they said at SES, this is what we'll say at SES next week.

Why do I have to attend someone else's conference to learn the updates on SEMPO? Can someone explain this to me? Like I said, I understand them needing a venue where most of their members might congregate, but to me this sounds more like come visit SES to access SEMPO. Are they both in each others pockets? I'm kind of lost with all of this.

Why can't they just post some good details on their site with all of these problems going around instead of saying it will all be revealed at SES?

If they have something to be revealed at SES why can't they reveal it now when everyone is asking? Obviously whatever statement they want to make is prepared already? Only if you attend SES and if you are a member of SEMPO can you discover the real truth.

Geesh, this all sounds like a secret tree house club where people need a decoder ring to be apart of it. Attend SES and pay to be a SEMPO member to learn more about a non-prof that is supposed to help marketers.

I'm really lost in all of this.

seobook

08-02-2004, 12:03 AM

I'm really lost in all of this.
as are many...

welcome to the forums simi :)

thejenn

08-02-2004, 12:33 AM

TheJenn, you are talking about different things. I think you should read previous post since #170 up to the present one. Here we brought to the attention the fact that others are using SEMPO About page mission statement, and SEMPO press releases to promote their own business with hot links. We are talking about a non profit organization used by others to promote their own "hats". Each time one of such links is out in a press release it is multiplied by 100,000 (PRWeb own numbers). Yes is an unfair advantage to those sites.

Actually, I did read all of those posts and completely understand what you meant. I also read Danny's posts. I still stand by what I said. Yes, there were some issues where it's probably better to point to the SEMPO home page than, say, the WebMama site, but when it comes to things like webmaster links or contact info in press releases, I don't see that they have done anything out of the ordinary.

Again, I'm not supporting SEMPO in everything they've done, I'm just pointing out that I think some of the gripes that have come about in this thread are getting a bit nitpicky and that people are arguing over things that never would have been a big deal had not other issues come up first.

You don't have to agree with me though. ;)

steve sardell

08-02-2004, 12:35 AM

I've been reading all of these post but wonder why SEMPO and SES seem to go hand in hand.IMHO, an excellent question, but one I do not believe will be promptly answered. We could formulate all kinds of wild answers like SEMpo was born at an SES; JM is a major backer of SES, and a sponsor of SEMpo; many SEO/SEM firms will be in attendance; it is more convenient for the *movers and shakers* to meet during the SES; JM wants to control, but this is all speculation on my part and has no real basis. If and when you do discover the reason, please let me know.

Are they both in each others pockets?Another prying question for which I have no answer.

I am simply ignorant as to what SEMpo is actually attempting. Boy, do I despise that feeling. I am beginning to think I knew more when I knew less, perhaps that is why it is said "ignorance is bliss."

But,I do plan to catch the live video cast of the meeting , read the blogging updates, enter the SEMpo chat room, and particpate on the forum. Wait a second... OOOPS, I just heard they are not planning any of those. I'll simply send them an email with my questions, maybe this time it will be answered.

seobook

08-02-2004, 01:00 AM

but when it comes to things like webmaster links or contact info in press releases, I don't see that they have done anything out of the ordinary.

the webmaster info link is to what appears to be a one page SEM lead generation site that was just recently registered, not a web design site. that coupled with the fact that the site is a SEM non profit site are what make that particular setup look a bit sketchy in my opinion.

steve sardell

08-02-2004, 01:13 AM

I don't see that they have done anything out of the ordinary
It it were done in the course of ordinary business it would be a non issue.The fact, however, it was for a NFP or NP and there is a difference. The ethics and standards are much stricter for a NP or NFP which is one reason for favorable tax treatment.
that people are arguing over things that never would have been a big deal had not other issues come up firstAbsolutely true, as they may have been glossed over, but these other issues have come to light. Because of them things have been inspected more thoroughly, and there has been an emerging ugly pattern. All these little items add to the bigger picture that is no Monet.

searchengineblog.com

08-02-2004, 01:30 AM

BlackKnight:

SEMPO isn't yet that organization, but if it can take heed and be lead by demand, it could be. There's a lot of constructive criticism available, here and elsewhere, to help forge an organization that we can all at least feel comfortable with, and that many of even the critics here could actively support.

I second that. A factor driving the outpouring is that people really do want to see a representitive organisation. SEMPO "could be"...

bethabernathy

08-02-2004, 01:34 AM

OOOPS, I just heard they are not planning any of those. I'll simply send them an email with my questions, maybe this time it will be answered.

Don't hold your breath. :)

Mel

08-02-2004, 01:36 AM

SEMPO claims to be a professional organization representing SEM, and as such it seems to me that it would be correct to present itself professionally. IMO this means as a minimum that emails concerning SEMPO matters should go to and come from SEMPO addresses, and the individual officers personal emails and/or website addresses should not be used to conduct SEMPO business.

This is also be true of its press releases, they should be signed by the issuing individual as an officer of SEMPO so as to not appear to be acting on his/her own behalf.

The issue of having a two tier membership structure IMO raises concerns that the organization is representing some members more actively than others.

But most important of all, if they are to be the voice of the SEM community, they are going to have to start communicaing with that community if for no other reason than to insure that they are representing the interests and desires of that community. From a personal perspective I consider myself to be fairly well informed, but I really have no clear idea of what SEMPO is really about, where to find out or how it operates. This lack of transparency seems at odds with the stated goals of the organization.

That there is a need for an organization to improve the perceptions of the industry in the publics mind is IMO without doubt, but the question is SEMPO the answer still has to be answered.

bethabernathy

08-02-2004, 01:42 AM

http://www.netapplications.com/sempo/

I agree that separating the non-profit business from the owner's business is very important. There must be some guidelines on this on the non-profit level. Will be looking much more closely into that this week.

dannysullivan

08-02-2004, 02:22 AM

I've been reading all of these post but wonder why SEMPO and SES seem to go hand in hand.
Many of the reasons why you hear SEMPO doing stuff at SES is exactly as Steve mentioned, in my opinion. SEMPO was indeed born out of the SES conferences. Many members do indeed attend the show. It has been convenient for SEMPO to apparently have some of their meetings during the show for this reason. Similarly, the WAIM group used to have meetings in conjuction with a conference it was born out of.

From what I have been reading, it seems that the only way to find out anything about what SEMPO is doing from the SEMPO people themselves is to visit SES.
Well, people attending the SEMPO meeting in London learned nothing of the stipend issue at all, even though that had happened. I think there have been other things that have happened learned outside of SES, like the job board.

The point is well taken, though. Not all SEMPO members attend SES shows, nor should they. The group clearly needs to improve communication with its members and not depend on them coming to any particular conference. That's a common theme coming out of this thread.

For the record, I think SEMPO has also had meetings at Ad:Tech and PubConference. I could be wrong, so certainly anyone correct me. I can tell you that way back in a discussion of the founding of SEMPO, I certainly encouraged the idea that the group would meet well beyond SES.

The quotes below are all from me and came from quite a heated debate on the founding of SEMPO last year on WebmasterWorld.com (you have to be a paid member there to access the actual thread (http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum78/803.htm)).

I don't see it as an SES thing. I know Barbara likes the idea of having meetings there. However, I suspect that if the SEMPO idea takes off, people would have meetings wherever there are a number of members. That might include PubConference, local areas, plus via online. Personally, I'd like to see it as inclusive as possible.

In addition, while the group has been largely born out of SES attendees, as I said earlier in this thread, I don't want that to be the only way members meet. It should be inclusive. Anywhere you have a lot of SEMPO members meeting, PubConference or wherever, there could be meetings. And if there are meetings in conjunction with SES, then I'll ensure on my end that they are free for anyone to attend.

Yes, the next meeting will be at SES. That makes sense because the core group interested in SEMPO was born out of people who have attended that show. However, my intention is to arrange a room at the show for an evening meeting, so that anyone who wants to attend -- whether they have a show pass or not -- can come to it. As I said before, I'd also well expect that if SEMPO members wanted, they might organize meetings anywhere they want, including perhaps around times when PubConference meets.

Everything I said before remains still the case on my end. I think SEMPO should meet anywhere it has a lot of members -- and even better, virtually so as many members can participate as possible. FYI, the references to making the meetings "free" on my end meant that I wanted to ensure SEMPO had a room made available so they could have meetings outside the regular show that people have to pay to enter. That helps, if you only come for the expo. But it still is better if there are virtual meetings that everyone can attend.