Mike Grehan Stirs Up SEMPO Controversy [Archive]

Incubator

07-27-2004, 02:47 PM

Interesting article. To me I don’t really see the point off some of the statements i read. I do not know Ms.Coll at all, but if that’s a SEMPO business decision who are we to make controversy out of it. Obliviously Ms.Coll is very qualified for the position , whether she has another full time income is irrelevant...she’s qualified

As for SEMPO, they have the right to run their business the way they choose to better the organizations look and impression on people, if MS.Coll can deliver this outline with good conversions then, yes, the fee paid to her is justified in SEMPO's mind
Not being involved with SEMPO myself and really do not see a Canadian content factor in their plan (I COULD BE WRONG since I think i have been to the site once or twice a long time ago)

As any business, their decisions are hopefully made from proper direction, It is always hard for small organizations to add a second "pipe" to thier business model/plan when it looks like the "damn" is going to bust...so to speak

If that added salary is the problem, I’m sure SEMPO can justify it in their business direction
From what I also read....the board at SEMPO has some heavy weights on it, these professionals do take the time to make SEMPO a part of their work, should they be paid...well....how much work are they losing by providing this service. Once again look at this list of Directors, they are "movers and shakers" in some peoples eyes

More power to you SEMPO, hope you benefit in that direction your are following to make SEMPO more credible and recognized

My 2 cents

Cheers

WC

Nick W

07-27-2004, 02:51 PM

After parting with my cash I waited patiently for my welcome pack and my newsletter and frequent pinging about events and happening stuff and... Not a sausage.

That's quite damning also. Sounds like many members may feel the same way?

Nick

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-27-2004, 03:14 PM

A while back, I worked for a firm that signed up as a member to SIMPER :)

I got a few spam emails, some affiliate offers, etc...complete with tracking codes!

Nothing substantial...and, I've been predicting this move (eg, that Barbara gets paid by SIMPER) for a while now.

Nobody - repeat, NOBODY, is going to go & crusade for the industry without some direct (and or easily trackable indirect) compensation.

>>>not a sausage

That's good.

>>>board members

Dam st8 they should get paid! I happen to know one or three of those guys, and IMHO, they should be getting some serious $$$ since they hopped on board and in many ways legitimized the whole thing. If it weren't for Kevin, Danny, etc al (Fred & company too) they Barbara would have been standing alone, running a flag up the pole on an island by herself, with nobody heading or caring about the cattle call to 'action'.

NFFC

07-27-2004, 05:00 PM

I think the $ thing is a side issue, of course people deserve compensation for their efforts.

To me the greater point is that thus far they have done nothing for nobody but themselves. I don't see that changing.

The day they close the joke down will be a happy day for SEO's, imho.

seobook

07-27-2004, 05:09 PM

As for SEMPO, they have the right to run their business the way they choose to better the organizations look and impression on people, if MS.Coll can deliver this outline with good conversions then, yes, the fee paid to her is justified in SEMPO's mind

The whole concept of non profit is that everybody gives. The fact that board members got a free $5000 / year inclusion is adequate compensation in my mind.

The whole idea is that everybody gives something and as a whole our industry does better. $78,000 is a bunch of money.

Nobody - repeat, NOBODY, is going to go & crusade for the industry without some direct (and or easily trackable indirect) compensation.

I completely disagree with that statement. If and when I get more successful I would like to help out the SEO industry for free. Hopefully that is what many of our forum posts do anyway.

Incubator

07-27-2004, 05:23 PM

The whole concept of non profit is that everybody gives. The fact that board members got a free $5000 / year inclusion is adequate compensation in my mind.

The whole idea is that everybody gives something and as a whole our industry does better. $78,000 is a bunch of money

A $5000.00 media buy wont deliver as much as you think, since it seems like SEMPO fee at that price delivers more then just PR pass, I saw alot more info that might be useful to companies that may help them on thier in house effects, if nothing else that might be a savings in outsourcing SEO. Dont get me wrong I am fully behind outsourcing SEO once a company properly understands that in house may become more then a one person job.

The 78k is irrelevant cash amount, that would be an SEO account spread over a year at $6500k a month. Im sure Ms.Coll would treat that as a client type of payment structure area or maybe not, I dont know the nature of her pricing and I really dont want to as well

Sometimes it costs money to make money, and offer a service that is trying to become an industry standard does take alot of time and money

Instead of hearing posts like "is cloaking bad " do meta tags work? and all the other negative information surrounding SEO, at least SEMPO seems to be trying to bring it into the over deserved attention it needs

But then again im still also looking for Canadian inclusion factors before I would be a member

Cheers

WC

Elisabeth

07-27-2004, 05:25 PM

The whole concept of non profit is that everybody gives.

not exactly. grass roots maybe, smaller organizations. Plenty non-profit organizations employ and pay executives (more than adequately).

It may seem like a lot of money, but it does depend on how many hours per week a person puts into the organization, and you definitely have to consider those hours as lost billable time- it's a trade off - you can only 'donate' so many free hours to any cause. and you also have to consider Barbara's standard hourly rate, which is at the top of the SEO scale.

i'm not saying I agree or disagree with the idea.

but it will be very interesting to see all the reactions to this.

seobook

07-27-2004, 05:33 PM

A $5000.00 media buy wont deliver as much as you think, since it seems like SEMPO fee at that price delivers more then just PR pass, I saw alot more info that might be useful to companies that may help them on thier in house effects, if nothing else that might be a savings in outsourcing SEO. Dont get me wrong I am fully behind outsourcing SEO once a company properly understands that in house may become more then a one person job.

So far money spent promoting my 8 month old SEO Book site is slightly less than $5,000 and last I checked it was a top 10 ranking site for "seo" on both Yahoo! and Google (it just went up to 10 on Google recently but may shift some back and forth). That $5,000 does not count my time, but to me if you are serious about changing stuff you can donate your time.

It is not like those placements are without payment either. I remember at a conference (I think NY SES) Kevin Lee stated that he tracks his traffic and that they have seen conversions come from SEMPO.

The 78k is irrelevant cash amount, that would be an SEO account spread over a year at $6500k a month. Im sure Ms.Coll would treat that as a client type of payment structure area or maybe not, I dont know the nature of her pricing and I really dont want to as well

That is easy for you to say, but some people do not make that much. I could probably promote a site for "online casino" or "buy viagra online" for well under $78,000. That is a ton of money in the SEO field.

Sometimes it costs money to make money, and offer a service that is trying to become an industry standard does take alot of time and money
I have no problem donating my time.

Instead of hearing posts like "is cloaking bad " do meta tags work? and all the other negative information surrounding SEO, at least SEMPO seems to be trying to bring it into the over deserved attention it needs
But is it???? I certainly hear a bunch more about Traffic Power than SEMPO. I have linked into the SEMPO site since its inception, and for a long time I was one of about a dozen sites linking toward it.

Incubator

07-27-2004, 05:47 PM

So far money spent promoting my 8 month old SEO Book site is slightly less than $5,000 and last I checked it was a top 10 ranking site for "seo" on both Yahoo! and Google (it just went up to 10 on Google recently but may shift some back and forth). That $5,000 does not count my time, but to me if you are serious about changing stuff you can donate your time..
I agree with you to a point there, but when you own or operate a corporation time becomes more precious then money for some, it still takes a commitment from both sides of a non profit business, nothing is free especially if you want to be an authority.

That is easy for you to say, but some people do not make that much. I could probably promote a site for "online casino" or "buy viagra online" for well under $78,000. That is a ton of money in the SEO field.
couldnt tell you about Viagra..... but SEO for "online casino" 78k... sure, now SEM for the same casino is a different game. Been in it for seven years now,know the industry very well and its about conversions not just SERPS.
Now that same 78k for SEM, PPC, portal development wont do it, sorry thats just the facts, especially when you have them come to you and ask to be in the top positions they feel are converting

I have no problem donating my timeGreat, you should contact them, I would if I was you

Cheers

WC

seobook

07-27-2004, 05:58 PM

couldnt tell you about Viagra..... but SEO for "online casino" 78k... sure, now SEM for the same casino is a different game. Been in it for seven years now,know the industry very well and its about conversions not just SERPS.
Now that same 78k for SEM, PPC, portal development wont do it, sorry thats just the facts, especially when you have them come to you and ask to be in the top positions they feel are converting

since Casinos and the US government decided online casinos were a bad thing the biggest ppc networks no longer exist, so primarily the money would just go to promotion.

you can build an amazing site for $20,000 and $58,000 is a ton of money for SEO. the casino is not a good or fair comparison to make though.

the average US worker (especially the average non profit worker) makes nowhere near $78,000 / year.

Incubator

07-27-2004, 06:13 PM

since Casinos and the US government decided online casinos were a bad thing the biggest ppc networks no longer exist, so primarily the money would just go to promotion.For now, do you honestly think that the main publisher like "Google" and " Overture" like continue on that field the second that law comes up for appeal, their the onl ones making real money

you can build an amazing site for $20,000 and $58,000 is a ton of money for SEO. the casino is not a good or fair comparison to make though..
no its not because it get harder, its not just one domain you are promoting its the "family" of portals they have. Most of the "main online casino companies" (which is less then you may think) offer 6 plus sites to promote, all serving different offers.

the average US worker (especially the average non profit worker) makes nowhere near $78,000 / year.
The top online casions make millions, they know that if someone comes along with a $5000.00 package it may not be developed in a full marketing plan for them and they have tried these packages before with a very high lose rate. Once again its just education. Should education come at a high price along with conversion and proper SEM tactics? Of course it should, that is why we are also in business. As for the average US worker...guess what, same in Canada, but you cant bring that to an online business equation when dealing with an industry as huge as online casinos

Back to the topic of SEMPO, all im saying is that if they are stepping to the plate to offer a better service more power to them and it will come at some form of cost that should be covered

Cheers

wC

AndyBeal

07-27-2004, 06:20 PM

When you volunteer for a cause you do so for the good of that cause. Don't you think it's a little coincidental that board members are now (allegedly) being paid for that time. A cynic would suggest that was their intent all along. Barbara has been a little too happy to take the lead role, don't you think?

Simple litmus test...ask her to resign...we'll then see if she is doing what is best for the industry and not herself.

NFFC

07-27-2004, 06:28 PM

The money thing is just a side issue.

Looking, through my biased eyes, at the bigger picture. SEMPO is just another attempt to control this industry by a group of individuals looking to advance their own aims.

I am not prepared to accept that and will not accept that.

The power, influence and $ in our industry lies not with the board of SEMPO and their companies, it lies with the independent webmaster professionals [as wmw puts it] that daily shape the www. It is the interests of that group that should be paramount, to allow SEMPO to try and usurp that power by the back door is simply wrong. Rather than allow a very small group of individuals to gain "special" privaliges we should be pushing the SE's to be more accountable to the webmasters that grace them with their content.

Without trying to get too personal, I have never, ever, seen a more amatuer set up in my entire life, and I've been around somewhat. I am sure the antics of SEMPO have raised much amusement within the SE's, if it wasn't so sad I'd be laughing too.

Without trying to get too personal part two [but sometimes it is about individuals] - There are [were] a couple of members of the board that I think our industry looked to, people we expected to not be blinded by BS and look out for "us". I think those two in particular have in some way let "us" down, Mr Sullivan and Mr Tabke need to take action to address that.

Once again, IM[biased]HO.

Brad

07-27-2004, 06:36 PM

The trick is, will the members think they are getting value for their money?

If not they will either demand accountability, results and/or demonstrable work product or they will vote with their feet.

It's been a year and I think people are still a little fuzzy on understanding what SEMPO is about and what SEMPO can do for them.

lots0

07-27-2004, 09:41 PM

I guess everyone will have to decide for themselves if SEMPO is an org that is out to promote the SEO industry or just promote a few individuals within the SEO Industry.

I guess if these folks want to promote our industry, it's OK with me, but they really should hold the self promotion to minium when working for a non-profit org (no matter if they get paid or not to volunteer their time).

dannysullivan

07-27-2004, 10:35 PM

Been out all day and just saw Mike's article. Thought I'd add some points, as well as address the specific concern NFFC had.

Unlike what Mike says, SEMPO was not Barbara's "brainchild." It grew out of the open forums we'd have at SES. Inevitably, we'd come back to issues about the industry reputation, the need to organize and so on. SEMPO was the brainchild of many of those who attended those sessions and wanted something more formal to emerge.

Barbara was one of those in attendance at these sessions -- and to be fair to her, she stepped up to the plate big time. You can question why she did it. Was it to earn the money she's now apparently paid? Was it to raise her reputation? Was it just out of desire to help the industry? Only she knows the true answers. Personally, I don't think she needed SEMPO as a money earner or reputation builder, but others are certainly free to disagree. But there's no doubt she was a prime mover in getting the organization past just talk and into action.

And the board members? Many of those were people who attended the organizational meeting in Boston 2003 and did a lot of work voluntarily to get things going without any promise of being on the board or any idea that it might actually happen. Anyone who was at that meeting could choose to be involved.

As for my involvement, I made it clear even when ideas were being floated of a group in those early organizational sessions that I didn't want to be running it or leading it. I'm busy enough with the work I do for SEW and SES. More important, SEMPO is an opportunity for others to have a voice for the industry.

I did think forming SEMPO was a good idea, however (and I still think the group can play an important role). That's one reason I agreed that between the Boston SES session and the August SES show last year when SEMPO launched, I'd serve as one of the interim board members. I did want to help see the organization actually get off the ground.

After that time, I stepped down off the board. I was happy to serve in an advisory capacity to the board, meaning that I might offer advice if they sought it or proactively if something seemed worth raising.

For example, when concerns were raised about some people thinking SEMPO was an accreditation body, I helped suggest some of the text and disclaimers that were posted to the site. More recently, as I explained in another thread, I raised to the entire board that I thought SEMPO would need to move toward addressing the reputation issue in some concrete way. I'd also spoken with Barbara a few weeks ago about the upcoming meeting and how I thought it was important SEMPO be ready to map out what it might do next.

So to what NFFC said:
I think those two in particular have in some way let "us" down, Mr Sullivan and Mr Tabke need to take action to address that
I'm sorry if you feel let down. I guess I have a longer term view and would like to give SEMPO some time to grow. I think there's potential in SEMPO even to do exactly some of the stuff you suggested:

we should be pushing the SE's to be more accountable to the webmasters that grace them with their content.

That's part of what I was suggesting in my original reputation thread (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=566), that SEMPO itself might help to serve as a check on some search engine actions. Perhaps it could do even more.

Of course, what SEMPO ultimately does (and if it succeeds) is down to the SEMPO membes themselves. My understanding is that the SEMPO members were surveyed and that some of the key issues were more educational material, help in business setup and so on. I think SEMPO has actually done some of that -- but a SEMPO board or committee member would comment better on this than I.

For the record, the stipend is news to me. As for the appointment of someone from Italy, Mike raised this issue with me several weeks ago. My reaction was basically, is SEMPO supposed to have a representative on the board from every country where it has members? If so, it's going to be a very large board indeed.

After talking with Mike, I did speak with Barbara and asked her about this. She explained that the person appointed had done a lot of work lobbying for SEMPO to grow in Europe. So the appointment seems in line with the initial appointments -- it was someone that stepped up to the plate.

As for Mike's suggestion that the entire board resign, I'd suggest something more practical. First, I don't think you want to lose your entire board all at once. But all the board members do have fixed terms. The board might want to consider moving those forward in stages, so over the coming year, voting might actually take place by the members and the whole "self-appointed" issue would be resolved. But the existing board certainly should have the right to stand again, if they want.

By all means, these or other issues should be raised at the next SEMPO meeting by the actual members of SEMPO. Whether it survives, thrives or what direction it goes is really down to them.

NFFC

07-27-2004, 11:18 PM

>I'm sorry if you feel let down.

I do, like it or not you have a "position" within the industry, people look to you to lead. As the industry evolves people will be looking to you more, it's a cross you will have to carry.

>Whether it survives, thrives or what direction it goes is really down to them.

I don't think it is, they need the bulk of the SEO's behind them, or at least those that can shout loudest.

After such a bad start, and I mean bad, the thing needs nuking. Maybe somebody could start again but not with the current leadership, better to kill it dead.

Joseph Morin

07-27-2004, 11:59 PM

First off:

but a SEMPO board or committee member would comment better on this than I.

I am on the membership committee of SEMPO. What does this mean? On occasion I sit down with Barbara and throw around ideas for SEMPO promotion and answer a few posts and emails. My time is extremely limited and as any busy SEO can attest, having the time to post, moderate or volunteer is literally extracting hours out of the day that you don't have not to mention the loss of income that you would normally be making by servicing your clientele.

I joined SEMPO after that first meeting in Boston 2003 and I believe I was one of the first out of my seat to hand a card to Barbara (who I had not met previously) to say I was interested. During that meeting there was a call for volunteers and as Danny stated, there were no promises to anyone that by donating time, it would be rewarded with a board seat. I honestly wish I had more time to devote to helping develop a body that would help get out the word of SEMPO and what its mission is to accomplish and that is to create more exposure for us so that the media and advertising agencies would take us seriously and especially give us some rationalle for increasing our rates to what interactive agencies charge to top tier clients.

Granted, SEO today is still a very young industry and as Mike speculates, a good percentage of the 'players' in this field are single consultants or micro firms. But I'll tell you what, this industry is changing and for the better. I remember sitting in a site clinic a few years back during SES and seeing the speakers dole out advice to attendees for sites like BobsDonutShop.com and MarysSewingShop.com (examples) and then fast forwarding to Boston 2003 when suddenly people began to take us seriously, when during the site clinic one of the first hands to go up was pointed to for a question and the guy said my site is www.ebay.com. To see the look on the crowds face that we had transcended into corporate America was extemely satisfying especially now when even bigger corporate names are in attendance at our trade shows and wanting to know where to start. I remember sitting at a session during Ad:Tech and watching the girl sitting behind me stand up and ask quite honestly and pointedly that she was new to search and didn't know where to start when directing her marketing people to drive traffic to their web sites. I looked at her name badge and it read "Procter & Gamble".

The world needs more information on search and what we do, to know that we provide a valuable service and for that we can charge what our counterparts in the media world charge. How many of you feel that you deserve to make what your counterparts as media buyers, creative directors or television producers make?

This is why I joined SEMPO. For one, I have patience and please, it is only been a year and during that year, tremendous strides have been made, so many speaking engagements around the world have been listened to by a curious audience (I myself attended and spoke at the little SEMPO meeting held during the Tokyo SES show - paid for out of my own pocket).

Membership has grown, case studies donated, job boards created, RFPs for SEO work by SEMPO members launched, research and surveys completed and for the first half of SEMPO's young life, most of this was done by Barbara and the Board, with a great deal coming out of her own pocket, not to mention the clients she has turned down because of her workload. I have been proud to watch Barbara work tirelessly for the cause, to see her go from conference to conference to one speaking engagement after the next spreading the word with what little she had to work with, especially in the beginning.

I think that it has been a great idea, that great networking community of SEO profesionals has developed and that even in it's infacy, great strides have been made and more to come.

The stipend? Oh please. From what Barbara has done out of her own pocket and the amount of work that she has not had time to service doesnt even compare to the stipend or referrals that she has gotten as a result. She was a successful SEO before SEMPO and certainly didn't kick start SEMPO with the thought of getting a stipend. Oh, and living in the bay area where Barbara maintains her practice is not cheap and the average worker there would have to make more than $78K to live decently.

The Board? I think we'll see more voting in the near future to include the general membership as potential candidates but in the beginning, it was those who volunteered and helped out and it was always a consensus that in the future the board membership would be open for a vote by the membership of SEMPO.

I would like to personally thank the board for their time and vision and the membership for making us what we are today - a trade organization with a future - if you'll let it.

Other organizations have attempted to achieve what SEMPO has accomplished so far but this is the first time that so many SEM firms have rallyed about each other giving out ideas and attempting to help each other out and certainly the first time to garner so much corporate support as sponsors and members including the search engines themselves. Let's give it time folks and if you have an idea or suggestion or just want to help out, please stop by the SEMPO booth during the San Jose SES conference and lets talk. I'll be working the booth on Wednesday from 12-2.

rustybrick

07-28-2004, 12:05 AM

Great post Joseph. Its good to hear a response from the inside.

I am thinking that, maybe, the next step is to hire someone who has experience in building a successful non-profit organization, such as the american marketing association.

Joseph Morin

07-28-2004, 12:13 AM

Agreed and believe me, SEMPO is very open to suggestion and help from its membership and we really do have the best interests at heart for the membership. But you know what? Maybe this is a wake up call and a way to get some truly constuctive feedback on areas of improvement. This is one of the reasons we are having an exhibit booth during the next SES show. I'm hoping a lot of good will come from this show and I for one am excited to part of one of the fastest growing sectors in the Internet.

projectphp

07-28-2004, 01:59 AM

...believe me, SEMPO is very open to suggestion and help from its membership and we really do have the best interests at heart for the membership... get some truly constuctive feedback on areas of improvement.
To be honest, one of the issues with SEMPO that could be improved is that y'all seem to see SEMPO's job as "serving the membership". For any trade organisation to suceed, it isn't the current members that you need to look out for, but the higher purpose of what best serves the industry. E.g. SEMPO should be doing what is in the best interest of the people it aims to represent, not necessarily the people who are currently members.

That may seem like splitting hairs, but it is a vital element of an organisation like this. If SEMPO doesn't serve the industry first, and individual members second, its runs the risk of simply becoming an exclusive club, with a limitted membership geared around perceived benefit.

Some areas in which SEMPO could improve (and remember, you asked for this :)):
1. The website. For people who make a living in marketing websites, the SEMPO site is lacking in a lot of info and marketing stuff. If I were making recomendations as an SEM, I would push for a bit more "pre-sales' information. On the site map, if I click on SEMPO Membership Information & Benefits (http://www.sempo.org/sempo-membership-information.php), I get pricing, sure, but where is the sales copy? Where is the stuff convincing me a SEMPO membership is a great idea? Where is the stuff to convince me my (US)$$$ wont be wasted? I think that stuiff is needed.
2. Clarity of focus and goals, particularly visible ones used as a pre-sales tool. Bill @ cre8 (http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7143&start=105) had a good list of things that would be nice to have live, and some thinmgs that would make membership a bit more attractive to many.

I am sure there are more, but these alone would take a bit of work to implement, and is just my $0.02.

Joseph Morin

07-28-2004, 02:11 AM

Duly noted.

Thanks PHP.

You know this is how it starts. The next thing you know, we'll be on our way to being a world class organization.

I'm passing on your 2 cents to the appropriate channels.

Nacho

07-28-2004, 03:59 AM

I think Mike Grehan has made great valid points that I agree on and puts SEMPO to the challange of being a better organization. And there are other comments that I disagree. One of them, Barry's (rustybrick) initiative to start this thread and discussion on paying a salary to a professional executing real live tasks for SEMPO and not just giving opinions of what should or should not be done for the industry and members.

I am a member, volunteer and assist the board at SEMPO in whatever way I can for the benefit of the members and SEM industry. I am also a very close friend to Barbara and know how much time and energy she has given to SEMPO. I don't know how she does it, but it's almost like another full-time job for her. Again, NOT PART-TIME as many people think, but full-time not measured in hours, but results and actions.

In my opinion, I don't think you need to ask her for a resignation to put her to the test. I don't believe that! I just think that there is a job that needs to be done on a full-time basis giving SEMPO more attention that it needs and that can be ANYONE the organization sees fit. Especially at the experience level that SEMPO needs, so you can't just go to Monster.com and pick out the best non-profit ex-president of whatevercharity.org. You need someone that can be at eye-level with the other board members and say, "get off your butt and get to work, there are serious issues that our members need to be addressed." However, I do see the large "conflict of interest" that has arise this entire topic to discussion with Barbara stepping up to the plate for our organization once again.

I honestly believe that if SEMPO needs a full time officer who executes ideas into actions (or as the name calls it "chief executive officer") that the organization is willing to justify $78,000 for it, the go out and find that person using all human resource methods “by the book”. Then IF there is NO professional out there that really fits the position better than Barbara and she is willing to do it. Then, I see it as purely ethical. I agree with Elizabeth, non-profit organizations are not made for a free working environment to save the world. They too have financial statements and balance sheets to declare with their members and Uncle Sam.

I also believe that a board that is elected by the members will be a good thing. Something that was not possible back in summer of 2003, because there were really no members available. Now, that’s a different story. I will vote to keep Barbara as president. I will vote “agreed” for the board to go out and find the most suitable professional to run the organization at a monetary cost. Whoever that professional is, I know that my board did the best it could to place the ideal candidate. I also wish that my board examines Mike Grehan's letter very carefully to address many opportunities to make SEMPO a better organization for its members and the SEM industry.

Saludos,

Nacho

Marcia

07-28-2004, 11:31 AM

Whoaa, hold it, hold it! Hit the brakes, and stop the train! This train of thought can't just slip by, it needs to be clarified and dealt with.

As for SEMPO, they have the right to run their business the way they choose to better the organizations look and impression on people, if MS.Coll can deliver this outline with good conversions then, yes, the fee paid to her is justified in SEMPO's mind

There is a world of difference between a business and a non-profit organization. Conversions relates to converting prospective customers to sales - that's how a business operates. An organization doesn't convert customers, an organization's membership base grows and they accomplish the stated goals of the organization.

As any business, their decisions are hopefully made from proper direction, It is always hard for small organizations to add a second "pipe" to thier business model/plan when it looks like the "damn" is going to bust...so to speak

SEMPO is not supposed to be a business. Business models and plans are blueprints to make profits - for a profit-making company. That is not applicable to a non-profit organization. The "plan" of an organization is to clearly state exactly what their measurable goals are, and to clearly map out how those goals will be accomplished.

Converting prospects to become paying members of a non-profit organization is no measure of reaching an organization's goals or its success, regardless of how effective the sales presentations or how much revenue is generated.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 12:09 PM

There is a world of difference between a business and a non-profit organization. Conversions relates to converting prospective customers to sales - that's how a business operates. An organization doesn't convert customers, an organization's membership base grows and they accomplish the stated goals of the organization..
I agree but a non-profit organization relies upon donations of time or money, or both. Lets remember that its non-profit and that doesnt equate to non-cost. Profit is above the fold and cost must be returned for the ones involved, whats a price to set for that...thats up to SEMPO. If you dont like the cost structure of the organization then dont join, thats where they retain the money to run non-profit. I think most people can make a difference between non-profit once they see our hear of money people are paid for there time, its still a cost

SEMPO is not supposed to be a business. Business models and plans are blueprints to make profits - for a profit-making company. That is not applicable to a non-profit organization. The "plan" of an organization is to clearly state exactly what their measurable goals are, and to clearly map out how those goals will be accomplished...
all organizations that run non-profit or for profit, executed properly must have a business plan and or a marketing plan to raise interest within a community
Should that come with a cost ? Depends on the plans and direction the organization wants to take.TO be a non-profit organization that is successful , you must agree that a cost factor must be measured to see if the non-profit organization will have a life span and included in that life span it will need to have exposure delivered, hows is that obtained...once again thats up to SEMPO

Converting prospects to become paying members of a non-profit organization is no measure of reaching an organization's goals or its success, regardless of how effective the sales presentations or how much revenue is generated.
SEMPO could easily say that cost is a factor of "Brand or Service" exposure to allow individuals the awareness that the offering is available. If SEMPO wants to come out as an "industry standard" (which is still debatable) word of mouth within our community will not be enough. Hopefully when SEMPO reaches a point with SEO/SEM awareness is high they will be able to . Money aside, if these professionals want to run this organization properly they already know the cost factor how they deal with that cost factor is totally their call. And who really cares what MS.Coll makes, better it go to her, one that has experience and knows how to run its marketing plan.

If SEMPO ran a PPC campaign for 10,000k would people still complain since its generating service awareness, I dont think so but as soon as it lands in someones hands it becomes questionable. Im sure MS.Coll service and input will go far beyond that of a PPC campaign.

Bottom line here ( for the sake of debate) is that if a non-profit organization
says " donate 100.00 for services and information to help us get our word out,that 100.00 might only equate to 60.00 since the other 40.00 has gone to cost. If non-profit organizations did everything at cost well guess what, they wont be around long enough to stay alive and offer a service

Should SEMPO be over-hauled, thats not for me to say, Im not a memeber
That should be left to the membership to decide for a review and if its justified the membership should be involved to get another plan to action and i am sure they will find a cost behind it, be it time or money

Cheers

bethabernathy

07-28-2004, 01:25 PM

Hi There - I was at last year's SEW Conference and those booths don't seem like an adequate place to get together and discuss Sempo's business plan. I did notice that if you join Sempo you could get into their private meeting:

http://www.jupiterevents.com/sew/summer04/specialevents.html

I am sure the members of Sempo have good intentions and I am absolutely sure that the work to attempt to get the organization up and running would be very time consuming. Although, I do think they might work just a tad bit harder on their image which, unfortunately, does look alot about self promotion and money gauging, even though, this, most likely, is not the case. :)

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-28-2004, 02:04 PM

I still agree with NFFC - imho, the company I used to work for got cheated, and their $5K contribution didn't get them squat. Would have been better spent on algo research, or a for a few business wire releases promoting themselves, or PPC, or any other marketing activity that can show a return.

If we're going to have an org that supports SEO / SEM activity, it seems ludicrous to have SEs as sponsors...as Google listed on their S1 SEC filing that one of the main threats to their SEM business is the SEO folks.

For those that ain't read it yet - go read it. Now, given that SEO is a massive threat to Google's business...why would they sponsor an org that spreads SEO, the biggest threat to their business on the planet?

They wouldn't, and that's why it's SEM, etc - and not SEOPO. A couple of guys over @ webmasterworld & I talked about founding "JUMBO" about 9 months ago...;) Jeremy's Ultra Marketing Bulls$!^ Organization.

Many folks, imho, are confused, and need to be better informed: SEMPO will never support / promote SEO as long as the entities that sponsor it now continue to do so. And that is what a LOT of people believed it would do.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 02:10 PM

If we're going to have an org that supports SEO / SEM activity, it seems ludicrous to have SEs as sponsors...continue to do so.
I agree 100% , well said

:)

cheers

rcjordan

07-28-2004, 02:23 PM

I run a non-profit of my own, have for over 10 years now. We are required to make public (literally to anyone off the street that requests it) detailed financial information. IRS complaince rules dictate this, though it may vary a bit by type of non-profit structure. So, it shouldn't be all that hard to get SEMPO's financial records if anyone is really that interested.

Before making any sort of contribution, commitment, or membership to a non-profit, the prudent thing to do is to determine what percentage of income goes to administrative and promotion/marketing expenses vs. spending on the "stated goal" of the organization. When digging around, it's not uncommon to find very high percentages (I've seen as high as 95%) being used to keep the organization in the business of perpetuating the bureaucracy rather than funding the goal itself.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 02:24 PM

> they need the bulk of the SEO's behind them, or at least those that can shout loudest.
I have been following NFFC's posting through this thread and i think the nail was hit right on the head with the above statement

Kudos, NFFC

cheers

WC

Marcia

07-28-2004, 03:21 PM

First off, I've personally attempted to take a very neutral stance on this topic so that objective observation can remain unclouded and realistic. This is part of that reality

Sometimes it costs money to make money, and offer a service that is trying to become an industry standard does take alot of time and money
For one, while financial solvency is necessary - what's trying to be conveyed is the distinction between the concepts and purposes related to a non-profit as opposed to a "business." The plain fact is that a non-profit organization is not supposed to make money.

I hate quoting myself, but this bears repeating

The "plan" of an organization is to clearly state exactly what their measurable goals are, and to clearly map out how those goals will be accomplished.
Which is simply pointing out that it isn't the acquisition of members or the accrual of capital that's the measure of progress, but accomplishments demonstrating tangiible achievement of the intended goals.

Instead of hearing posts like "is cloaking bad " do meta tags work? and all the other negative information surrounding SEO, at least SEMPO seems to be trying to bring it into the over deserved attention it needs
Bring it over to whom? Who will the message be reaching, and by what means? I believe both of the above points are part of what's behind what Mike Grehan is addressing.

Part of the "who" can be seen by reading through this discussion again:

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=429

>>> they need the bulk of the SEO's behind them, or at least those that can shout loudest. <<<

No disagreement with that. That's why that discussion about words is a lot more pertinent that it would appear from just skimming over the surface.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 03:57 PM

First off, I've personally attempted to take a very neutral stance on this topic so that objective observation can remain unclouded and realistic. This is part of that reality.
So have I, I think we just have different opinions, Thanks SEW for that :)

For one, while financial solvency is necessary. -
We agree on that ...who defines it, is either going to be SEMPO or their signed up members?And whats the cost to that? who defines it? As long as it bringings the importance of SEO/SEM marketing into a full recognized marketing plan and not just an add value added sale, to prospective clients for all the price is still irrelevant..[/QUOTE]Thanks for pointing out this link, good read, as i went through it again

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=429

Cheers WC

bethabernathy

07-28-2004, 05:01 PM

Hi There - I was just wondering (I have no idea on this) are non profit organizations required to hold any sort of public meetings? I would think that Sempo's private meeting at the conference in San Jose would be a great opportunity for them to hold an open meeting related to their goals and objectives. It could give everyone an opportunity to discuss industry standards and give Sempo the opportunity to explain what their plans in the next year will be related to this:

"SEMPO is a non-profit professional association working to increase awareness and promote the value of Search Engine Marketing worldwide."

rcjordan

07-28-2004, 05:44 PM

>are non profit organizations required to hold any sort of public meetings?

Mine is required to make the corporate minutes available and to advertise annually (local newspaper legal classified) that they are open to the public (by stopping by the corporate offices). That's about it, we do not have to have public meetings.

massa

07-28-2004, 05:50 PM

I would love to see SEMPO, or WAIM or any one of about a half dozen other SEO industry association wannabes make it. I'm trying to help and hope my statments are taken that way.

Salary
The stink is not because someone is getting paid or if someone is qualified or if someone is getting results. The doubt is cast because of lack of accountablility. A salary without stated objectives and numbers that can be quantified is not logical and will not fly for anyone other than possibly the ones getting the salary. At least not without some really good public relations. Which brings up a second point.

Sempo has far too many people saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong people in the wrong place. You are illustrating in living color that sometimes it is better to remain silent and have the world wonder at your true abilities than to speak and remove all doubt.

I predict that if, as an organization, you do not STOP talking without knowing the objective for what you are saying and most importantly have other people STOP talking for you trying to help, this PR nightmare, all started by one man's logical, unemotional observation, will destroy you.

My unasked for advice is, if you have a PR guy, USE him for Christ's sake. If not, let the net deal with this topic anyway it likes until it blows over.

Best of luck to you and please remember I'm trying to help in my own small way. I just happen to have a little experience with internet public relations and dealing with negative opinions being expressed in forums.

searchengineblog.com

07-28-2004, 08:20 PM

A SEMPO press release? http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb144487.htm

Look at the "movers & shakers" in the search industry. Hmmm....

massa

07-28-2004, 08:50 PM

Ahhh, quite a difference from going back and forth in forums huh? Good for you Sempo.

Incubator

07-28-2004, 09:10 PM

Sempo has far too many people saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong people in the wrong place. You are illustrating in living color that sometimes it is better to remain silent and have the world wonder at your true abilities than to speak and remove all doubt.

I predict that if, as an organization, you do not STOP talking without knowing the objective for what you are saying and most importantly have other people STOP talking for you trying to help, this PR nightmare, all started by one man's logical, unemotional observation, will destroy you..
VERY WELL SAID

Cheers WC
:D

NFFC

07-28-2004, 09:38 PM

>A SEMPO press release? http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb144487.htm

I would have gone with slightly higher KWD in the body text, although with 12 repetitions of "Coll" already it may have made the copy less compelling.

Jill Whalen

07-28-2004, 09:45 PM

My unasked for advice is, if you have a PR guy, USE him for Christ's sake.

Ahh...it's always gotta come back to PR with you, eh Bob? hehehehe ;)

fathom

07-29-2004, 01:39 AM

Salary
The stink is not because someone is getting paid or if someone is qualified or if someone is getting results. The doubt is cast because of lack of accountablility. A salary without stated objectives and numbers that can be quantified is not logical and will not fly for anyone other than possibly the ones getting the salary. At least not without some really good public relations. Which brings up a second point.

Sempo has far too many people saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong people in the wrong place. You are illustrating in living color that sometimes it is better to remain silent and have the world wonder at your true abilities than to speak and remove all doubt.

I predict that if, as an organization, you do not STOP talking without knowing the objective for what you are saying and most importantly have other people STOP talking for you trying to help, this PR nightmare, all started by one man's logical, unemotional observation, will destroy you.

My unasked for advice is, if you have a PR guy, USE him for Christ's sake. If not, let the net deal with this topic anyway it likes until it blows over.

Best of luck to you and please remember I'm trying to help in my own small way. I just happen to have a little experience with internet public relations and dealing with negative opinions being expressed in forums.

Aside from the drama - I would think this is a good thing.

I also assume the stipend is of the "position" and not the person... thus the "position" will have accountability... the fact that there is likely limited accountability now does not mean the status quo will remain.

I also find it interesting that the loudest voices for "change" and "accountability" are also the same voices that "don't seem to want it".

Changing a whole industry (supposedly for the betterment of the industry and clientele of the industry) isn't going to happen overnight, or with but a few people involved.

Will the advocators be duly compensated - I'm sure they will... just like the ney sayers won't as they tend not to be prepared to except any accountability beyond their own ideals.

Will it work? Well - that's is a future objective... and if you believe you can be more accountable than Barbara - I'd say advocate for the seat... and change the whole industry in one big swoop! :-)

Unfortuately, change happens in baby steps, and I still believe they are going in the right direction.

NOTE: I am still not a member of SEMPO but I do follow it, and support it... I believe if the second year makes advances beyond the first year... it will be worth every penny.

searchengineblog.com

07-29-2004, 01:55 AM

AussieWebmaster

07-29-2004, 02:31 AM

Up front I am not a member yet... though intend on joining as an inhouse SEM - paying out of my own pocket as a donation of support. I belive there may be concern with the current situation but from all I have read here and on the site (in particular: http://www.sempo.org/faq.php#mission ) I see no wrong doing.

If everyone who is complaining is a member then an election would reflect the majority's opinion.

The organization does not to answer to anyone but its members. All new organizations start with a board who step up to help at the outset. Some do as Danny did and act in an interim capacity... though they all eventually have a vote by members to choose a board.

Having the support of SEs and other industry ancilliary makes sense to me. They gain from improved perception of our industry also.

That companies are tracking links on the site only makes sense... hell don't we try and let people know that tracking is an esstential part of this industry.

Whatever the payment is not anything extraordinary... most people on non-profits are getting paid... it is about getting the goals achieved.. hell most fundraisers for non-profits get a good percentage of the donations they bring in... doing comparisons of income are foolish... people who have the skills to organize and build membership etc. are generally not working for minimum wage.

Obviously this needed to be discussed but how about we let the current members work it out and those who are not part of the organization stop criticizing for the sake of controversy.

AussieWebmaster

07-29-2004, 02:35 AM

fathom

07-29-2004, 02:46 AM

as Google listed on their S1 SEC filing that one of the main threats to their SEM business is the SEO folks.

For those that ain't read it yet - go read it. Now, given that SEO is a massive threat to Google's business...why would they sponsor an org that spreads SEO, the biggest threat to their business on the planet?

While a bit off-topic; I did read this, and saw specifically Yahoo and MSN as main threats, and broadly defined other SE's, ISP's (e.g. sympatico IPS bundles with MSN) and IA's because of bundling potential against Adwords etc. but I never saw specifically SEM/SEO or any other referred Acronym etc.

Can you add a URL - extremely interested?

andrewgoodman

07-29-2004, 03:15 AM

The problem is that it's all very well to say how accountable SEMPO is, how hard working people are, how advances are being made, and they may well be, but it must be seen to be done.

I sense that the SEM community aren't rallying behind SEMPO because they can't see much being done. There appears to be very little in the way of communication, which is odd for a professional marketing organisation.

And probably, truth be told, is that those in the SEM community are as clever as they come, and they know that their "representatives" are also competitors. More troubling still, they might very well be creating power structures that link several competitors together, while shutting out non-"Circle" members. The language of SEMPO Circles and so forth only serves to fuel this kind of speculation.

If the organization had a history that made you feel confident that board members and the Director would predictably rotate in and out and genuinely perform a service role in the industry, it would be different.

For now, SEMPO is very closely associated with a particularly founding group. They are working hard, but, if you're in the SEO biz, you know what it's like. People have interests. They're tough competitors and many didn't stay strong in this biz by being particularly nice. So do you want to be forced into deciding whether to give that person $250 or $5,000 of your cash? Why not scale the ambition back and make it $99 at first?

And has there ever been any open discussion about why corporate sponsorships are set so high? I suppose the answer I might get is "we're getting Overture's money so we can promote ourselves, dumbass." Does sound like a great deal, doesn't it? Except I don't want Overture's money (at least not that much of it). I already enjoy their lovely sponsored events at SES, but as for them putting money into helping promote the industry, good idea in general, but based on what principle that we could apply fairly to other potential sponsors... and in relationship to ordinary members?

At the SEMPO dinner in Toronto I certainly liked the food and drink, and enjoyed sitting near a nice Overture person who played an instrumental role in paying for that, but what was the external purpose of that meeting, one wonders? SEMPO funds being spent, truth be told, to solidify support for SEMPO itself, seems rather circular.

If Ov. wants to buy me a steak, why don't they just start an advocacy group called Ovpo, charge me $125, and let me pick the restaurant? No, really, I mean it.

Anyway, the various sponsorship levels is just one example of moving too fast. A rep from one larger company who declined the offer of membership at the nosebleed level stated that s/he was "offended" at the amount. Why was this new group started up by visible people in the SEM service industry asking for so much money? Some companies, like Overture, have been very generous. Others are simply more cost-conscious. And when you put people on the spot like that, it raises questions, ruffles feathers, etc.

Chris_D

07-29-2004, 04:34 AM

As a SEMPO member, I feel its pretty P*&& poor that I get to read of the decision to pay Barbara $78K on a public forum.

This isn't about the money. It isn't about whether or not Barbara 'deserves' it. Its just about a "professional organisation" keeping it's membership informed of its actions & decisions.

I have had emails from SEMPO on 21 July, 2 July, and 21 May - NONE of which either mentioned this decision, or even alluded to discussion of the concept. In fact - I can't actually find any published minutes of any Directors meetings - except for an excel overview summary of a P&L to April 2004. No meeting minutes.

If SEMPO intends to be an INTERNATIONAL body representing the SEO/SEM industry, then they'd better grasp the fact that sending AUSTRALIAN members invitations to USA physical meetings - but failing to follow up with minutes of those meetings (either email, or on the website in teh members area) - doesn't really keep the membership in the picture.

Maybe SEMPO should put a link on the sempo home page "Find out what's happening inside SEMPO at SEWForums".

Incubator

07-29-2004, 10:34 AM

After reading a few of these great posts it seems to me that SEMPO really has to show or re-focus thier "value proposition" to the members that are currently signed up.

Cheers

Wc

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 10:46 AM

I'll say it again, I really think they need someone from the outside to make it work. Pay them 50 - 250k, I am a member, I am for that. As long as they have proven non-profit (lobbying, promotion, etc.) experience.

thejenn

07-29-2004, 11:41 AM

A SEMPO circle member respondes in a Press Release today...

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/7/emw145221.htm

Some snippets...

“Mike seems like a good guy and a very knowledgeable search pro,” said John Sanchez, President and CEO of Zunch Communications, a Circle Member of SEMPO, “But I think some of his questions about what SEMPO is doing with his membership dues were a little harsh and not necessarily founded in truth. This organization is just one year old, and Mike, by his own words, chose not to join at first, believing that SEMPO would be no different from other do-nothing professional organizations. When you come at us from a negative attitude to begin with, it won‘t be hard to find fault with what we’re doing.”

"...I think Mr. Grehan’s point about there not being a board member overseeing the UK is one we need to look at. As well, Mike’s call to have SEMPO become more of an ethics-standards enforcer and certification outlet are well taken. If Mike wants to be that UK board member or in some other way contribute to our efforts, perhaps he should come to the table and stop standing near the wall. Maybe we’ll see him in San Jose and we can talk it through.”

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 11:53 AM

Has anyone seen, in any forum, a direct answer by SEMPO to 'The $78,000 Question?' Did SEMPO approve this stipend? (Whether Coll has actually drawn down on it yet isn't really the question.) I've seen one post that seemed to confirm it --but, like the rest, vague. It'd be nice to put that part of Mike's challenge to rest.

thejenn

07-29-2004, 11:56 AM

I was at that first meeting to get the idea of SEMPO off the ground back in March of 2003. My main point to Ms. Coll and others running the meeting at that time was this:

If you plan to represent the industry and to help educate businesses in the importance of SEO/SEM, then you need to work with the people that are out there in the trenches already doing just that. For the most part, those people are the small, one-man band shops, not the huge SEM firms that are already working with Fortune 100 companies. It's the people explaining the concept of SEM and charging a small business client a few thousand dollars and then turning around and producting five times that in revenue. THOSE are the people that are educating every day businesses about the value of SEM.

At that first meeting, membership levels were being talked about in the range of $1000, or even $500. (Yes, I'm aware that the base level has since been lowered) Nonetheless, that's a lot of money to a small business owner, especially one that is focused on ROI. What is the ROI on a SEMPO membership for a small SEO shop in a small town? Is SEMPO going to show up in Pittsburgh, Toledo, Amarillo or Cheyenne to convince the local businesses that they need to use SEM services? No, the folks that are already working there are going to do the local networking and educating of the businesses in that area.

Consider also how many SEO/SEMs simply don't have the funds to even attend an SES and therefore a SEMPO meeting. Isn't it possible that the folks that made it to those meetings didn't really represent the heart of the industry, but instead represented the muscle? Now, muscle is good for getting things done, Danny, Jill, Bruce and other well-recognized names have done an awful lot for this industry when it comes to press...there's no denying that. But an organization that aims to represent an industry needs to be made up of a wide range of people from within that industry.

My second, and perhaps greater concern was the problems that would arise over time if SEMPO refused to put any type of ethical requirement on membership. Let's put aside the black hat, white hat issue...as we all know that argument goes nowhere. There are other ways of providing a code of ethic...the easiest of which is "full disclosure." In other words, if you use a method that could cause problems for your client, you need to fully explain the risks to your client and let them make the decision to move forward with those techniques. That's not a lot to ask of a company, but it does give a ground level ethical requirement to members.

As it stands now, here's what I see potentially happening. SEMPO was designed to represent the industry, to be a voice, to be quoted in the media, etc... We all remember the Wall Street Journal article last year about the woman who hired an SEM firm that ended up getting her banned from the engines. Well...what if that firm was a member of SEMPO? How would that make SEMPO and the SEM industry look to the outside world? IMHO, not very good...

SEMPO is based on good ideas and I agree that we need an organization for this industry...but thus far, I honestly don't believe that things have come about the way they should, nor do I believe that they are currently heading in a direction that will solve the problems above. If SEMPO can iron out some issues and make some changes, I'll be the first in line with my check to join. Until then, I'll keep plugging away in the forums, on Search Engine Guide, and in little old Columbus, Ohio to spread the word about SEO that old-fashioned way.

andrewgoodman

07-29-2004, 12:51 PM

Possibly a better way forward would be for leading members of the SEM community (even if this is in part through a more modestly-funded SEMPO, which does not take hefty 'Circle' payments that imply special access for friends) to do more to further their roles within existing marketing professional associations.

I don't know that much about the DMA, or the IAB, etc etc. Nor about international web standards councils, and more technically oriented working groups around the world. But taking our place more effectively within those types of organizations seems constructive in spite of their failings. The world is going to see the value of SEM anyway, so this attitude that we need to be out there crowing about "our" industry may be misplaced. We might be better off working -- or learning to work -- within organizational structures that have stood the test of time.

If that's already happening, then great. That would mean we're moving in the right direction. But there seem to be too many distractions already. SEMPO should not have a de facto hierarchy of membership so soon. It should not be acting as a referral service. A list of all members with brief bios and accomplishments, great. Referring clients to specific Circle members? Come on. This conflates the business of SEMPO with the business of SEMPO insiders.

SEM has champions all over the place. For all the 'hurt' felt by some SEO's when Seth Godin critiqued the business, what was missed was the fact that this permission marketing (and other types of marketing) "guru" -- who basically dislikes most forms of marketing and advertising today -- loves this stuff and thinks that SEM is one of the few remaining effective marketing methods. To continue attracting this type of favorable attention from all over the place, we don't have to be LOUD, we just have to continue to show the world the numbers. Some of the numbers are just too difficult to argue with. I'm coming out with a book in the fall, and other members of the industry have already done so. From what I can see on Amazon, Building Your Business with Google for Dummies by Brad Hill, as well as Shari Thurow's and Cat Seda's books, are selling very well, a nice start in getting the word out about the respectable side of our business. There are also studies released by companies like JupiterMedia. These sources contain numbers and factual arguments that are instrumental in documenting the effectiveness of SEM. We are not fighting against a sceptical world. We are watching the business world slowly wake up to the reality. So if SEMPO is premised on the need to break through a sea of ignorance, I believe that premise is wrong. Think about the language many of our clients, and many working developers in corporate settings use today -- landing pages, cost per acquisition, granularity, etc. -- the world *is* learning and learning fast. Search Engine Strategies conferences are breaking records every time they convene and new shows are popping up every year.

SEMPO -- in a slightly more modest role and one that reaches out and works more within existing structures -- could really play a supportive role for its membership.

But regardless of what SEMPO does, every individual SEM professional is a potential ambassador for the field. What SEMPO (and other bodies and initiatives) can do is to centralize and subsidize some of the effort of co-ordinating and disseminating SEM-friendly research. From this, quiet, confident advocacy can follow.

SEMPO can *leverage* existing, emerging work/stats made possible by companies like NetIQ, Hitbox, Clicktracks, comScore, etc. Again, the effort here is one that is more along the lines of "working with" as opposed to reinventing the wheel and/or making a big deal about SEMPO's unique or original contribution.

As such a solid salary in the $50-100,000 range makes sense for a full time person, but with some others, I tend to think that the Director should be a professional brought in from outside who relishes organizational development of this type -- someone who can live on $75,000-100k a year and who does not feel like they're taking a pay cut or making a sacrifice to do this job. (If the position is made part-time, then even this salary level is excessive. For a half-time position $50k would be fine.) Is it absolutely necessary to have this organization located in the Bay Area? Some of our industry's leading lights have left California as a lifestyle decision. Probably 20% of the California-based Google staff will leave the area if they can cash out. Isn't that the point of IP, Wi-Fi, and innovative business models? We don't need to work in Manhattan or Mountain View or commute to Bay Street if it costs too much to do so? The acquisitions editor who is helping me on my book (the publisher is based in San Francisco) usually works from her home with a dog and kids in Utah. So many of the leading SEM's live in places like the Rocky Mountains and have photos of themselves on their websites wearing fuzzy things and sitting on mountain bikes. Maybe SEMPO should move to the mountains too, so it can chill out a bit. :D

Board members will be geographically dispersed, anyway.

andrewgoodman

07-29-2004, 12:53 PM

And if not the mountains, then DC. That's where the lobbyists live.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 01:31 PM

It would be nice to hear some positive communications about Sempo. I am very interested in finding a way to gather 5K together to get into the circle, although I am a 1 person operation w/2 dogs and my husband and we do live in the mountains.

I would definately have paid the $250 for the entry level membership, but I sent two emails about membership when it opened last year and never got a response. I also personally emailed one member on the board and still no response. :)

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 02:49 PM

Did SEMPO approve this stipend?
I talked with someone today from the board and can confirm that it was approved a few months ago.

This isn't about the money. It isn't about whether or not Barbara 'deserves' it. Its just about a "professional organisation" keeping it's membership informed of its actions & decisions.

I agree entirely. This is the heart of the matter and the issue I'm most concerned with. Decisions have been made and the members haven't been kept informed of them. Everyone who is a member has a fair gripe about that.

What I'd suggest is this. If you are a member of SEMPO, make your voice heard at the meeting next week, if you can attend. Be prepared to say where you'd like the organization to go next, what you want it do -- and most important, perhaps be ready to step up to make it happen as part of a committee. If you can't attend, then get in contact with someone who can to pass along those concerns and comments.

This is all assuming you are a member of SEMPO and see a value in the organization growing and maturing.

As for the board, as I said earlier, I don't think the solution is to have them all resign at once as Mike suggested (http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8234&st=30&#entry85792) in his article and again over at Jill's forum. It's not practical for two reasons.

First, the entire SEMPO membership will not be at the meeting. They deserve some notice and opportunity to vote, especially given how a big gripe is that they haven't had an opportunity to vote on new board members.

Second, let's assume the entire board is voted off in a fit of rage and upset. Who takes over? An immediate vote to name new people from the audience? And who transitions them in?

Instead, I do think it would be good for the board to over the course of the next six months or so be put up for election in stages. Perhaps half the existing seats might be put to a vote in the near future, with the membership having proper notice and the ability for new candidates and existing board members to explain their positions. Then you'd do the same with the remaining half a bit further down, so help ensure an orderly transition if indeed a transition is going to happen.

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 03:12 PM

>confirm that it was approved a few months ago.

Thanks Danny. A date would be helpful. Even if you can only narrow it to the month.

qwerty

07-29-2004, 03:39 PM

As for the board, as I said earlier, I don't think the solution is to have them all resign at once as Mike suggested in his article and again over at Jill's forum. It's not practical for two reasons.

First, the entire SEMPO membership will not be at the meeting. They deserve some notice and opportunity to vote, especially given how a big gripe is that they haven't had an opportunity to vote on new board members.

Second, let's assume the entire board is voted off in a fit of rage and upset. Who takes over? An immediate vote to name new people from the audience? And who transitions them in?
I'm not a member, so my opinion doesn't count for much, but it seems to me that the board should declare that elections will be held and set a time for them. Those among them who want to keep their positions will have the opportunity to say so. That doesn't mean they've quit, and that they should leave the organization to flounder until they're replaced.

And of course the vote shouldn't be held right then and there. They should take a couple of months to allow others to declare their interest in the positions, to campaign for them, and then to have a vote via their web site.

donut

07-29-2004, 04:03 PM

It does explain the new BMW convertible Barbara has been bragging about. :D

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 04:26 PM

I know that it takes alot of time to get a business up and running. Unless you are independently wealthy it seems like it would be a real drain to get a non profit organization going. So I think compensation is not a bad thing. Although I am a little unclear as to why Webmama herself stated (this is in March):

"SEMPO is a non-profit 501(c)3 organization. The Board of Directors have received no financial compensation for their volunteer position on the board of SEMPO.

Barbara C. Coll; CEO, WebMama.com Inc.; President & Chairperson of the Board, SEMPO Inc. "

See:
http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=59618#59618
(this was brought up back on the 1st page of this thread).

Here is another good one, back in mid June, I called Webmama's office to see about getting some help with a difficult client. The woman I spoke with said that Barbara was way too busy with her speaking circuit and vacation plans to accept any new work at this time. Sorry if I am getting off point. :)

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 04:32 PM

Her next post in that thread (emphasis mine):

"We do have some paid subcontractors like admins, webmasters, accountants, lawyers, PR, program managers, etc. We may have a paid executive position one day. I don't expect the Board to ever be given money for their 100s of hours of work (and in my case 600-700 hours) on SEMPO or for the hours and hours of time provided by their employees."

This was late March. Which is why I asked Danny to clarify the date the stipend was approved.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 04:40 PM

This was late March. Which is why I asked Danny to clarify the date the stipend was approved
I don't know the exact date, sorry. If it was before that statement, obviously very bad. If it was after that statement, still doesn't look good given the "I don't expect..." comment. But things do change. Maybe it was decided that they did need to have a paid position, and she'd be paid as filling the role until someone was found down the line. I honestly don't know, don't have those type of details.

I think many are in agreement that they don't mind SEMPO having paid staff, but that the members should have been informed of this and of the other developments.

By the way, there's been good discussion on the topic all across the various forums. Peter's got a good roundup with key links (http://www.searchengineblog.com/archives/2004_07_01_archive.html#109106028891182585) here.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 04:46 PM

Well with 600-700 hours you'd think I could get a response to my emails related to membership last year. I would like to join, although I have been trying to find out the benefit, short of a listing on the site. Seems a little pricey for $299 a year considering at the executive level my site would probably never be found. I did a search using what I think are the search terms they are going for on the executive page and they didn't list anywhere on the first two pages of Google. ;)

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 04:57 PM

Danny, I'll be uncharacteristically blunt. I've (been sent to) and read most of the posts out there. Though everybody but Google's short-order cook was trotted out to wave the look-what-Sempo's-accomplished flag in the threads, the $78,000 Question was always side-stepped. This performance alone raised my interest. The long and the short of it is that this smells and it now appears that the vast majority of what Mike says was dead-on target.

Now, the date shouldn't be hard to find. Major actions by the board of a non-profit, such as the declaration of a significant payroll addition, should be recorded in the corporate minutes. Any of the SEMPO board members want to just flip back through the minutes and post a date?

NFFC

07-29-2004, 04:57 PM

Strange, so ultimately SEMPOGATE all comes down to:

What did the president know and when did she know it?

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 05:15 PM

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 05:21 PM

Now, the date shouldn't be hard to find.
To be clear, I'm not on the board of directors. I'm sure you are exactly right -- the date would be easy to find. But I don't have access to SEMPO records or anything like that. I was simply talking to one of the board members earlier today and asked if the stipend situation was indeed true. I was told it was and that it happened a few months ago. But only one of the actual board members can give you that date. Hopefully, one of them will do so.

As for what Mike's saying being on target, I didn't doubt the stipend information. It was pretty specific and would have been really unusual to make that fact without some pretty firm knowledge.

Joseph Morin

07-29-2004, 05:24 PM

SEMPO article posted today (http://www.mediapost.com/PrintFriend.cfm?articleId=261863)

Nick W

07-29-2004, 05:30 PM

>>SEMPOGATE

NFFC, my thanks for that. Classic!

So where is our barbara then?

Nick

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 05:34 PM

See:
http://fdncenter.org/learn/faqs/html/np_pro_con.html

"Scrutiny by the public: A nonprofit is dedicated to the public interest; therefore, its finances are open to public inspection. The public may obtain copies of a nonprofit organization’s state and federal filings and learn about salaries and other expenditures."

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 05:37 PM

You were clear, Danny, at least to those that knew your advisory position vs. board --I just took the opportunity to press the question. (However, while we're on the subject of the board, it does pique my interest a bit wondering who fed Mike the information.)

A 501-c3 doesn't provide much of a corporate cloak, in fact it's intended to do just the opposite. Here's the text of the legal classified I'm required to publish when I file my 990:

"The annual report of the XXX Foundation for the year ended June 30, 200x, is available at the principle office located at (corporate address here) or at (accounting firm address here) for inspection during regular business hours by any citizen who request it within 180 day hereof."

Since the first year hasn't finished, there may be nothing to see (yet).

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 05:44 PM

However, while we're on the subject of the board, it does pique my interest a bit wondering who fed Mike the information.
He knows several of the board members closely as he said in his original article. My assumption is that he heard this from one of them.

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 05:49 PM

>My assumption is that he heard this from one of them.

Mine, too.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 05:50 PM

"SEMPO is one year old this week. Happy Birthday SEMPO." Dated Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 by Barbara Coll.

What would the date be to be able to request the info?

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-29-2004, 05:56 PM

SEMPO is (if it's near Barbara...) right up the street, so to speak, from where I live.

Be more than happy to barge in on the offices of the accountant (if we can find the name?) & ask for a copy of the financials. ;)

As I've said, though - this org seems 100% about SEM, not SEO...so, imho, it's not my bag but somebody else's deal. For the industry's sake, and becuase this seems like a lot of egg on somebody's face...I hate that what was supposed to be a "good thing" has degenerated (imho) into the proverbial PR nightmare.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 05:57 PM

Thought it might also be useful to again focus on what the scandals are in this whole thing:

1) Europe board member being appointed. I think I read elsewhere that Barbara did say that the board would itself appoint a European board member. So no scandal in that. Issue is was someone from Italy? As I said earlier, I doubt the board is going to have someone from every country that SEMPO has members. If so, then you've got a board of over 100 people.

2) Barbara being paid. Big issue if this happened before her public statement that it wasn't happening. Medium issue if it happened after that statement because she indicated she doubted the board would ever be paid -- but things do change. Big issue in that the members weren't told. The board probably has the complete right to do this. Mike at Jill's forum talked of acting "unconstitutionally." Actually, I would guess that the founding documents for SEMPO give the board members the right to do this. But not keeping the members informed of major actions like this, yep, that's a failure.

3) Board is self-appointed. This wasn't news to the members that joined, or it shouldn't have been. But it is an issue now. The fallout of all this is that the board itself is being called into question. Actual elections will help strengthen the group -- they should be done.

4) Lack of communication. Clearly members don't seem to have been well kept informed. That's got to be fixed.

5) Lack of focus. Clearly many members seem uncertain what SEMPO is doing, where it is heading. It's their organization, so they need to help drive it forward to do what they want.

By the way, 5 is also somewhat applicable to non-members. People outside SEMPO clearly have thoughts on what the group should or should not be doing. But it's the members who've actually stepped up to join and support the group, so it's ultimately up to the members how to drive it along. And the board is accountable to those members.

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 06:01 PM

>date

When is SES/SJ? I don't think any of this will go past that.

Technically, if their fiscal year end is in July they can postpone until November.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 06:02 PM

http://www.sempo.org/sempo-board-of-directors.php

Would it be at the treasurer's office? If so I think that is in S.F. Just a quick 30-40 mins from the upcomming San Jose conference.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 06:07 PM

When is SES/SJ? I don't think any of this will go past that.
Yeah, suffice to say, I think someone will certainly raise this at the meeting and an answer be given. I highly doubt anyone will have to be demanding public records to get that answer. But what will probably be helpful, if it's not already planned, is for the members to be given some type of financial recap on what's been taken in and what's been spent on.

pleeker

07-29-2004, 06:12 PM

He knows several of the board members closely as he said in his original article. My assumption is that he heard this from one of them.

Shall we start calling this person Deep Cloak? ;)

rcjordan

07-29-2004, 06:14 PM

If you're a fan of mud-wrestling, it might be worth $299 membership and airfare/hotel just to attend this SJ meeting.

NFFC

07-29-2004, 06:20 PM

> is for the members to be given some type of financial recap on what's been taken in

That would be a good idea, not just for the members but for all those considering membership. Imho they need to make the info available to everybody.

>and what's been spent on

Keep a close eye out for "transformable conveyance system", thats non-profit speak for a BMW convertible :)

[just joking, honest]

pleeker

07-29-2004, 06:21 PM

5) Lack of focus. Clearly many members seem uncertain what SEMPO is doing, where it is heading. It's their organization, so they need to help drive it forward to do what they want.

By the way, 5 is also somewhat applicable to non-members. People outside SEMPO clearly have thoughts on what the group should or should not be doing. But it's the members who've actually stepped up to join and support the group, so it's ultimately up to the members how to drive it along. And the board is accountable to those members.

True, but the charter says SEMPO exists to promote the industry. Is SEMPO benefitting the industry as a whole? Maybe that's part of what you refer to as "Lack of Focus", but it seems many (members and non) think there has been focus -- but that's it been benefitting the few, not the industry as a whole.

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 06:24 PM

I will make sure to attend the SEMPO members meeting and post a summary here.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 06:28 PM

I just faxed Sempo a letter requesting their annual report. I can't make it to the conference (new puppy) and i'd like to find out the info.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 06:30 PM

The charter says SEMPO exists to promote the industry. Is SEMPO benefitting the industry as a whole? Maybe that's part of what you refer to as "Lack of Focus", but it seems many (members and non) think there has been focus -- but that's it been benefitting the few, not the industry as a whole.
Yes, I did mean it as part of the lack of focus. SEMPO's chartered to help promote SEM, but clearly many in and outside of it don't feel/see that happening. I think that there have been other posts in various places by SEMPO where many things were outlined that have happened -- but it's still a concern that this either isn't registering with some members or if it is, they may not find it to be enough. Or maybe some of them do -- the real test will be at the meeting and shortly after, when members decide if they want to reup.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 06:35 PM

Fax # removed from Sempo. Barbara's site down. Can't find their fax number?

NFFC

07-29-2004, 06:45 PM

>My assumption is that he heard this from one of them.

So, let me get this straight..... One or more of the directors gave rank-and-file member Mike information from a closed door meeting?

It's safe to say that Coll didn't give this information to him. So it seems we have a board that has problems keeping internal matters, well, internal.

Not good, I wouldn't want to have my directors gunning for me.

Even worse, from the "industry" viewpoint we may have a board member[s] who knows things are wrong but lacks, for want of a better word, the balls to speak out.

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 06:57 PM

Let's not stalk anyone please. When SEMPO is ready they will speak up. If they don't then I guess they will fall but I would guess we will hear a response soon.

Again, if they loss the members and supporters then SEMPO is no longer.

There is no reason to stalk or harass anyone, not that you will.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 07:06 PM

No stalking just interested in obtaining a copy of their annual report. It would a good document to read and very important in this industry going forward. :)

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-29-2004, 07:11 PM

>>>There is no reason to stalk or harass anyone, not that you will.

let's not go toss accusations like that around ;) All we're asking for here is *accountability* and - imho, the rest of us 'punters' that have waited on the side lines & not joined...(or been that long a member, as I was a "temporary one")...

we don't want to see the rest of the 'industry' imho, slammed due to the (potentially) self serving, grab for power that (may) have been a large driving force behind the formation of SEMPO.

Wouldn't it be ironic, if the org that was formed to "help" the industry, ended up being the worst PR thing for the industry this year? That would make me ashamed that I didn't try campaigning, against it, harder...

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 07:23 PM

Jeremy, I agree with some of your points. But there are many ways for this to be handled.

AussieWebmaster

07-29-2004, 07:26 PM

This is looking like being the longest thread besides the insights from Orion... guess if we can't get enough advanced semantic theory a good flame works just as well....

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 07:58 PM

I deleted the phone numbers that were posted. Sorry, I felt it was getting too personal. In partcular, the numbers listed were for Barbara's company, not for SEMPO.

This thread -- and this issue -- relates to SEMPO. Anyone who wants to contact SEMPO can find the details easily enough at http://www.sempo.org. Both a telephone number, email addresses and a submittal form are offered. No need to repost those here.

FYI, I don't see a fax number listed at the SEMPO page nor was one listed apparently on July 15, according to the date of the Google cache page.

seobook

07-29-2004, 07:59 PM

This is looking like being the longest thread besides the insights from Orion... guess if we can't get enough advanced semantic theory a good flame works just as well....

I do not think the thread is growing so long just because it is a flame. It is growing long because it is truely relevant information to many people. It is an issue that should be discussed.

I think SEMPO would be smart to include a blog and forum right into the SEMPO site if they really want SEMPO to work...at least that way there is a central location for communication which bridges the tiers and makes the organization appear more transparent and democratic.

searchengineblog.com

07-29-2004, 08:18 PM

I do not think the thread is growing so long just because it is a flame. It is growing long because it is truely relevant information to many people. It is an issue that should be discussed.

Exactly.

The fact that some would consider it a flame shows that perhaps they're not really listening.

SEMPO: Just answer Mikes questions. Don't wait till the conference to do it, most people won't be there.

We have the interweb thingy, remember...

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 08:18 PM

The Sempo org would be a huge undertaking to do it correctly i.e. you would probably have to quit your day job to get it going. I am sure there are very good intentions and again paid positions are certainly acceptable. If it was my undertaking, I would have gotten onto this forum and spoken out right away. I think there are very reasonable concerns here. They simply need to be addressed. Quite simple in my mind.

pleeker

07-29-2004, 08:42 PM

The thing is ... this is not the first time over the past year that SEMPO has been questioned like this. It's happened in each of the other forums I've ever looked at, and the issues this time are mostly the same things people have been questioning all along (with the exception of the $78k issue).

Each time these issues have been raised, someone at SEMPO comes out and says "we're just starting out, it's only our first year, we have done some wonderful things, but we know we need to do better and communicate, and we will, just give us time, etc."

Well, these things have been brought up many times since SEMPO started, but nothing much appears to have changed, as evidenced by Mike G.'s column. And perhaps things are worse now, since it appears one of the board members has tipped Mike G. about the unannounced salary Barbara is taking, and since we don't know the timing of the salary and Barbara's March comments about no one being paid.

So at what point will the board realize things really have to change? The "we're new, give us time" excuses can't go on forever. Maybe Mike G. has it right -- maybe it's time to bring on an executive with experience in building trade organizations, and preferably one experienced in cleaning up messes.

rustybrick

07-29-2004, 08:42 PM

Exactly.

The fact that some would consider it a flame shows that perhaps they're not really listening.

Plus I dont post topics that turn into flames. :D

Jeremy_Goodrich

07-29-2004, 09:00 PM

>>>preferably one experienced in cleaning up messes.

Better to start with a clean bill of health- than start with two black eyes...imho.

AussieWebmaster

07-29-2004, 09:28 PM

searchengineblog.com

07-29-2004, 09:36 PM

Basically others have the right to comment (the beauty of america)

It's the beauty of other places, too ;)

but the ones that have a real right to question actions are the members.

If an industry group is claiming to represent the industry I work in, then I don't need to be a member to comment. They affect me by virtue of their existence. I hope that SEMPO does well, I really do. I'd join if I could see the benefit and felt the numerous issues were being addressed.

That's the problem. Myself, and others, and struggling to see the benefit and get clear answers to simple questions. That isn't a good position to be in when attempting to recruit new members, or convince existing members to renew.

Can SEMPO answer Mike's questions? If not, why not. If so, when?

Brad

07-29-2004, 09:40 PM

How many people involved in this discussion are members of SEMPO? Basically others have the right to comment (the beauty of america) but the ones that have a real right to question actions are the members.

Consider it due diligence.

If SEMPO wants me to pay them my hard earned money, then they should get used to a little scrutiny and some questions before I pull out my check book.

But you are right, if I was already a member, I would be asking a lot harder and more direct questions, I'm sure the others would too.

Jill Whalen

07-29-2004, 09:43 PM

Very good point, Aussie!

Many who aren't members aren't because they had particular gripes with the organization. This simply adds to them, but then they don't have to join!

I am a member. I'm really just waiting to see why they didn't tell members about the stipend. If Barb works as hard at SEMPO as she seems to, then it doesn't seem that weird for her to get paid for it, if the other board members agreed. Apparently they did.

Was it supposed to be a big secret though? Maybe, maybe not. The fact that Mike knew, makes me think it wasn't supposed to even be a secret. Yeah the members weren't informed, but that still doesn't mean it's a secret.

Hopefully, SEMPO will have a press conference or something soon and simply address the issues that have been put forth. Then all those that never liked SEMPO can go on not liking them, and those who joined can decide if we are still happy with our choice of joining...or not.

seobook

07-29-2004, 10:06 PM

Many who aren't members aren't because they had particular gripes with the organization. This simply adds to them, but then they don't have to join!
Its not my gripe or my organization. It is the fact that if you are to represent my industry perhaps you need to convince me that I need to join or that I should support you.

If an industry group is claiming to represent the industry I work in, then I don't need to be a member to comment. They affect me by virtue of their existence.

As I recall Jill you were one of the biggest naysayers at the Boston SES. Something convinced you to join, perhaps we are just wondering why we should.

Was it supposed to be a big secret though? Maybe, maybe not. The fact that Mike knew, makes me think it wasn't supposed to even be a secret. Yeah the members weren't informed, but that still doesn't mean it's a secret.
Yup, but I recall Chris D said

As a SEMPO member, I feel its pretty P*&& poor that I get to read of the decision to pay Barbara $78K on a public forum.

This isn't about the money. It isn't about whether or not Barbara 'deserves' it. Its just about a "professional organisation" keeping it's membership informed of its actions & decisions. ...

Maybe SEMPO should put a link on the sempo home page "Find out what's happening inside SEMPO at SEWForums".

Hopefully, SEMPO will have a press conference or something soon and simply address the issues that have been put forth. Then all those that never liked SEMPO can go on not liking them, and those who joined can decide if we are still happy with our choice of joining...or not.
It is not about liking or not liking. It is about building a community that supports one another for the good of the whole (at least that is what "SEMPO is a non-profit professional association working to increase awareness and promote the value of Search Engine Marketing worldwide." tells me)

Unless of course raise awareness means just getting forum posts. I guess the current actions are doing a good job of that, but then again so did Traffic Power.

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 10:06 PM

Like I said, I just want to know more and am very interested in joining if it all makes good business sense, but to date going on 1 year have not received 1 response to any of my questions related to membership. Just weird thats all.

dannysullivan

07-29-2004, 10:42 PM

OK, I have news passed along to me on behalf of the SEMPO board. Why isn't this coming direct from any of the SEMPO board members? Because they've decided it makes the most sense to address these items directly to the membership itself at the meeting Monday night rather than through the various forums.

Barbara's stipend was approved on May 15 and she began drawing it on that date. She began taking it because she also assumed a second hat, that of acting executive director, in addition to her role as president.

I'm told that this was going to be announced at the meeting Monday even before Mike's article raised the issue. In addition, I'm told these are other points that were planned to be discussed, of items that have been in the works already:

* A search for an experienced executive director is to begin with the goal of having them onboard by December 2004. Barbara will then step down as president and acting executive director and just be chair of the board.

* There were already plans to have the membership nominate and elect a board member by December 2004 - this will be done faster if the board can determine a way to do this.

* The entire board is up for renewal in March 2005 - at that point, the plan is to stagger elections of new board members.

* Financials for the SEMPO year end were posted on the member-only website in April.

* Minutes of all board meetings are available to anyone who asks and SEMPO's seeking a way to put them online in the members area.

New items that were not already on the agenda that have been added in the wake of the article and various forum discussions will include:

* budget spend to date
* income
* future budgets
* accomplishments
* admission of shortcomings with member communication and steps being taken to correct this
* update on a current research project
* update on an upcoming SEM advertising campaign

That's what I've got. I'm sure people have follow up questions. If so, I'd say the most constructive thing is to list what else you'd like to hear, know or have expanded at the meeting Monday night.

Nacho

07-29-2004, 10:50 PM

Thank you Danny :)

bethabernathy

07-29-2004, 11:30 PM

I have rewritten this too many times now. I only require a response to my fax which requests a copy of their annual report. I am sorry but I like things in writing and I have requested info on membership for 1 year at the onset with no response. So if you want anyone to look over anything ask me as I have 15 years of experience working for some of the top law firms in the country. I just want documentation which should be readily available from a non-profit entity from anyone. Again, still interested in joining, just do not understand.

Joseph Morin

07-30-2004, 12:00 AM

Beth,

From what i understand, the fax you sent was to the WebMama corporate office, and Danny mentioned that SEMPO doesn't have a fax number listed at the site. I believe Barbara is on her way to the SES conference via Montreal and may be out of pocket as a lot of us travelling to the conference will be over the next several days.

bethabernathy

07-30-2004, 12:16 AM

O.K. this is the last one from me, but the address on B's site and Sempo are the same. Fax the same? I just simply want documentation without having to join a .org that I have requested info from related to membership for over 1 year. I am sure that I will not receive my requested annual report prior to the conference. Sorry to be a thorn.

Nick W

07-30-2004, 03:43 AM

>>I'm told that this was going to be announced at the meeting Monday even before Mike's article raised the issue.

So it was approved and drawn upon on may 15 and they were going to announce it on aug 7

Sounds like damage limitation to me. I've met Barbara, it was memorable to say the least ;)

And if that really is the truth, then it was at the very best, an ill thought out move.

Nick

I, Brian

07-30-2004, 05:16 AM

I'm surprised to read the rather dismissive retort against Mike Grehan. He raised a rather extensive list of very valid concerns.

That SEMPO would seemingly rather belittle Mike first, than address any number of the concerns raised, hardly suggests SEMPO as an organisation worth taking seriously - if it ever was in the first place.

Chris_D

07-30-2004, 07:29 AM

Danny, thanks for relaying the answers from Sempo.

Because they've decided it makes the most sense to address these items directly to the membership itself at the meeting Monday night rather than through the various forums.

I live and work in Sydney Australia. I trust that the Sempo Board will appreciate that I'm really just too busy to 'pop over' to a Sempo meeting in the USA next Monday evening.

As a financial member of Sempo, could I request 2 things please:

1. Will the Sempo Board be providing agendas and minutes of any other Sempo Board meetings? What other decisions have been made (that, by definition, the membership is not aware of?).

2. Why didn't the Board not even mention the 'agenda' for next Mondays meeting in the 3 member emails from SEMPO (21 July, 2 July, and 21 May) - since the decision was made?

This has become a PR disaster for Sempo for one reason - the Board of Sempo has failed to communicate their meeting agendas, minutes, and decisions to their members. If they had - this whole issue would have been a non event.

Its not about Barb; and not about money; its only about communication with the (paid) membership.