Overture Announces New Bid Management Tool

[AussieWebmaster]

According to people at Overture they will be rolling out a bid management program to keep on top of their PPC where bids will be examined every "5 minutes" the announcement may come at SES or within the next 4-6 weeks.

They are also looking at Daily Caps and rotating ads... so obviously they are taking feedback from advertisers and trying to improve their products.

[seobook]

sounds cool :)

there user interface is significantly slower than that of Google so things they can do to automate stuff will help them do a better job of competing.

rotating ads is a huge advantage AdWords has over Overture right now.

[OptimizeOnline]

According to certain industry sources it seems that Overture will be launching 'Search Optimizer' today.
http://www.dmnews.com/cgi-bin/artprevbot.cgi?article_id=29925

[garyp]

OptimizeOnline you are correct. The new Overture Search Optimizer is now available.

Here's the announcement (http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040727/275439_1.html) and a page of details from Overture. (http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/ac/pr/so.jhtml)

[rustybrick]

Nice price tag they have on this tool http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/ac/pr/sop.jhtml

Starting at $249/month - $1599/month.

[AussieWebmaster]

Nice price tag they have on this tool http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/ac/pr/sop.jhtml

Starting at $249/month - $1599/month.
They are insane with those prices.... you can get a better deal from the tracking companies... KeywordMax offers 150k tracked leads for $199 and it can be used for all engines... bid manager, tracking and ROI, and a click auditor to capture fraud...

It is almost as if they don't want you to use it. Or this is such a headache.. we are going to charge a bunch because of the annoyance it is going to cause.

[garyp]

Today is bid management tool day.
iProspect has press released (http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040727/275660_1.html) that they have just submitted for a patent on their bid manangement tool.

[andrewgoodman]

Does this now put the heat on Google to offer rules-based bid management?

[seobook]

Does this now put the heat on Google to offer rules-based bid management?

I think the price tag turns a bunch of people off. Could you imagine how wildly successful this product would be if it was offered free?

I do not do a bunch with large scale PPC, but what does this tool bring to the market that other tools already do not?

Bid management software will eventually become more and more of a comodity and those prices are rather steep for smaller advertisers.

[vinniesmith2227]

Actually other bid management tools such as GoToast, Did-It and EFrontier run upwards of $10,000 a month for a large number of keywords. I actually had the oppportunity to speak with an Overture rep and take a "tour" of their new bid management tool and it was very user friendly and seemed well worth the money. And even better, by next year, they hope to be able to use their tool to manage other search engines as well. A very good buy!

[vinniesmith2227]

And one more thing....my understanding is that Diamond customers will be offered the tool for free through the end of the year.

[AussieWebmaster]

And one more thing....my understanding is that Diamond customers will be offered the tool for free through the end of the year.

What is Diamond? I am Platinum at the moment... do I need to talk to my CSR?

[vinniesmith2227]

Hi,

I believe it is based on the amount of money you spend a month. Email me at vinnie.smith@gmail.com and we can privately discuss the amount of $$ we each spend with them and we can determine the level information. Talk to you soon.

[Vural Cifci]

I talked to Overture rep and got a presentation too. I like the fact that search optimizer will be a part of marketing console and the marketing console can be used as a Web Analytics tool

[Lori Weiman]

I run the keywordmax product - check it out when you get a change. it offers bidding on unlimited keywords, and the pricing is much more affordable than the overture tools. Let me know what you think.

Actually other bid management tools such as GoToast, Did-It and EFrontier run upwards of $10,000 a month for a large number of keywords. I actually had the oppportunity to speak with an Overture rep and take a "tour" of their new bid management tool and it was very user friendly and seemed well worth the money. And even better, by next year, they hope to be able to use their tool to manage other search engines as well. A very good buy!

[Vural Cifci]

Keyword max is limited with ppc campaigns and they can only tell you ROI whereas in Overture tool we have CPA and we can set the CPA.Also you can track natural leads by keywords and search engine. That eliminates the need for a Web analytical tool like Urchin campaign tracking.Also keywordmax charges you by action.(which is everytime there is a click or a bid change it is an action) If you have a huge overture and google account you may end up paying lot of money at the end of the month only for bid change actions.

[Lori Weiman]

It doesn't sound like you are NOT very familiar with KeywordMax. Which would explain why the literature on overture's site makes some false claims.

Let me help you to understand:

KeywordMax is a tracking and bidding tool. It tracks all types of advertising including pay-per-click, organic search, paid inclusion, shopping engines, banner ads, newsletters and any other type of advertising activity. We have relationships with the top engines where we import the same data that you show your advertisers.

Now - the bidding tool uses the data from the tracking side to optimize bids on a variety of metrics including ROI, CPA, CPC, and Profit. We have been doing this for quite some time now. It appears to us that Overture copied both our feature set and somewhat of our pricing model - although Overture's is about 3 times the price or more. KeywordMax lets you track unlimited keywords - there is no extra fee for extra words.

The KeywordMax suite also includes a fraud monitoring system to watch the ppc engines.

You can get the information that you need to provide accurate information at www.keywordmax.com

In addition, it is not true "if you have a huge overture and google account you may end up paying lot of money at the end of the month only for bid change actions." While our pricing is based on the activity in the account, our large advertisers find our pricing to be 1/5 the price of Gotoast, and by viewing your price sheet, will be about the same for Overture.


Keyword max is limited with ppc campaigns and they can only tell you ROI whereas in Overture tool we have CPA and we can set the CPA.Also you can track natural leads by keywords and search engine. That eliminates the need for a Web analytical tool like Urchin campaign tracking.Also keywordmax charges you by action.(which is everytime there is a click or a bid change it is an action) If you have a huge overture and google account you may end up paying lot of money at the end of the month only for bid change actions.

[Lori Weiman]

You can read it: It doesn't sound like you are very familiar with KeywordMax. or you can read it: It sounds like you are NOT very familiar with KeywordMax.

It doesn't sound like you are NOT very familiar with KeywordMax. Which would explain why the literature on overture's site makes some false claims.

Let me help you to understand:

KeywordMax is a tracking and bidding tool. It tracks all types of advertising including pay-per-click, organic search, paid inclusion, shopping engines, banner ads, newsletters and any other type of advertising activity. We have relationships with the top engines where we import the same data that you show your advertisers.

Now - the bidding tool uses the data from the tracking side to optimize bids on a variety of metrics including ROI, CPA, CPC, and Profit. We have been doing this for quite some time now. It appears to us that Overture copied both our feature set and somewhat of our pricing model - although Overture's is about 3 times the price or more. KeywordMax lets you track unlimited keywords - there is no extra fee for extra words.

The KeywordMax suite also includes a fraud monitoring system to watch the ppc engines.

You can get the information that you need to provide accurate information at www.keywordmax.com

In addition, it is not true "if you have a huge overture and google account you may end up paying lot of money at the end of the month only for bid change actions." While our pricing is based on the activity in the account, our large advertisers find our pricing to be 1/5 the price of Gotoast, and by viewing your price sheet, will be about the same for Overture.

[NFFC]

<--- Goes to get popcorn

Nothing more I like than a good ole bid management tool vendor fight.

[AussieWebmaster]

<--- Goes to get popcorn

Nothing more I like than a good ole bid management tool vendor fight.
Now if it were only two women... lol

[Lori Weiman]

maybe it is .... Now if it were only two women... lol

[Vural Cifci]

First I am not a vendor to begin with. Second I used the keywordmax tool to estimate howmuch I would be paying per month using my current monthly visitors,number of keywords and the number of sites I will track. My merchant pro estimate was $1400/month.
I got about 10,000+ keywords and 200,000 visitors/month.

Also with Overture you do not only track your advertising (including e-mails and eveything you mentioned with keywordmax), generate campaigns and also the leads that are coming through natural results. (Just like webtrends or Urchin Campaign tracking tool).That's the reason I can use it as web analytical tool.

I wouldn't even mention gotoast or did-it in the conversatin because they charge you 10-15% of ad spent. In my case this is close to 10,000 every month.

With the Overture tool since I will be tracking 200,000 leads every month I fall into the $399 bracket.(up to 500,000 leads) If you only want to track your advertising then this number will be a lot lower because the half of the leads are coming from natural results and you don't need to track it if you do not want to.

As I said I am not trying to sell anything like you and trying to get the most features with the money that I spend.

If you don't want to pay a monthly fee then I suggest that you use a combination of Urchin Campaign tracking ($4000) and PPC Pro and PPC Pro (non-Overture). But you need to spend more time watching your account.

One last thing.
"It doesn't sound like you are NOT very familiar with KeywordMax. " does it mean I know about it or I do not know about it?

thanks everybody

PS: STEPPWOLF is a male wolf

[Lori Weiman]

Thanks for clarifying. At first I thought you worked for Overture, there were some false statements on their site which is why I responded the way I did to your email.

Sounds like something is confusing - either our site or theirs. I appreciate your feedback. If you are inclined to comment back, it could help us improve our messaging.

Just to clarify:

- Keywordmax can track all advertising types, plus natural search. However, if you wish to limit your tracking to only ppc, you can do that. You can track everything that it tracks, or you can limit it.

- KeywordMax Price: $875 for your situation 200,000 clicks and 10,000 keywords. There are 3 packages to choose from. The best package for your situation would cost you an estimated $875 per month - and is the Agency Standard package. You get price breaks at the higher volumes - sorry if you missed that on the calculator.

- Overure Price: $3,419 for your situation. I believe you are misreading overture's pricing. You have to pay for each keyword that you track. My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong anyone):

Package 3: $399 includes 125,000 clicks and 1,500 keywords. $.002 for each additional click, $.32 for each additional keyword.

I think that means you pay $399 plus $300 for clicks plus $2,720 for keywords = $3,419

I appreciate your feedback. Thanks!





First I am not a vendor to begin with. Second I used the keywordmax tool to estimate howmuch I would be paying per month using my current monthly visitors,number of keywords and the number of sites I will track. My merchant pro estimate was $1400/month.
I got about 10,000+ keywords and 200,000 visitors/month.

Also with Overture you do not only track your advertising (including e-mails and eveything you mentioned with keywordmax), generate campaigns and also the leads that are coming through natural results. (Just like webtrends or Urchin Campaign tracking tool).That's the reason I can use it as web analytical tool.

I wouldn't even mention gotoast or did-it in the conversatin because they charge you 10-15% of ad spent. In my case this is close to 10,000 every month.

With the Overture tool since I will be tracking 200,000 leads every month I fall into the $399 bracket.(up to 500,000 leads) If you only want to track your advertising then this number will be a lot lower because the half of the leads are coming from natural results and you don't need to track it if you do not want to.

As I said I am not trying to sell anything like you and trying to get the most features with the money that I spend.

If you don't want to pay a monthly fee then I suggest that you use a combination of Urchin Campaign tracking ($4000) and PPC Pro and PPC Pro (non-Overture). But you need to spend more time watching your account.

One last thing.
"It doesn't sound like you are NOT very familiar with KeywordMax. " does it mean I know about it or I do not know about it?

thanks everybody

PS: STEPPWOLF is a male wolf

[Vural Cifci]

http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/ays/mc_pricing.jhtml


Package 4 is $399 which is upto 500,000 leads
[A lead is confined to a single unique browser session. (If a customer lands on your site, closes his or her browser or Internet connection, opens it up again and goes to your site, this is counted as two leads). ]and they charge $0.0018 for additional after that but we won't even be reaching 500,000 leads.
There is no keyword limit mentioned either on their site or by the Sales Rep.
When they include the optimizer into their package that will be an additional $100 or so.
I honestly don't have an idea how you came up with 1500 keywords limit. Because nobody mentioned it or I couldn't see it in their pricing structure.

[vinniesmith2227]

I took the demo for Keyword Max and found nothing amazing about it. I'm curious Lori...if I am understanding, you are an employee of Keyword Max? Why is it that you think it would be good business to reply to a post and a potential customer the way you did? Is that the kind of customer service you offer? No thanks!

[Lori Weiman]

Good Point Vinny.

I thought it was an overture employee. They have some false statements on their site. I think it has been clarified.

Thanks for your insight.

I took the demo for Keyword Max and found nothing amazing about it. I'm curious Lori...if I am understanding, you are an employee of Keyword Max? Why is it that you think it would be good business to reply to a post and a potential customer the way you did? Is that the kind of customer service you offer? No thanks!

[Lori Weiman]

Hi Stepp,

Thanks for your help.

I am looking here: http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/ac/pr/sop.jhtml

I see where you are looking: http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/ays/mc_pricing.jhtml

I really don't understand the pricing from what I can see. The first one is for the bid optimizer - but the breakdown is totally different than the second link which I think is only for the marketing console.




http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/ays/mc_pricing.jhtml


Package 4 is $399 which is upto 500,000 leads
[A lead is confined to a single unique browser session. (If a customer lands on your site, closes his or her browser or Internet connection, opens it up again and goes to your site, this is counted as two leads). ]and they charge $0.0018 for additional after that but we won't even be reaching 500,000 leads.
There is no keyword limit mentioned either on their site or by the Sales Rep.
When they include the optimizer into their package that will be an additional $100 or so.
I honestly don't have an idea how you came up with 1500 keywords limit. Because nobody mentioned it or I couldn't see it in their pricing structure.

[Vural Cifci]

I will have a web presentation from an overture sales rep again in 15 mins.
I will post the package prices after I talk to him. Because a keyword limit was never mentioned before. If that turns out to be the case I will prefer using PPC Pro and PPC Pro (non-Overture). Their quote was $1700 for both and another $4000 for Urchin campaign tracking. $5700 is my one time cost and I am sure I would breakeven at most in 7 months compared to the cheapest solution.

[Vural Cifci]

Apperantly the overture sales reps don't know their pricing policy yet. they are not even sure if that will remain or change in the future. What they know and make sense is that the optimizer will be able make changes in every 5 mins whereas the third party tools are limited with the limits of the direct traffic center and features.

[vinniesmith2227]

Good Point Vinny.

I thought it was an overture employee. They have some false statements on their site. I think it has been clarified.

Thanks for your insight.


I guess my point is that even if you were talking to a competitor you should still treat them with respect instead of treating them like idiots. You'll get a lot more respect if you treat everyone, including your competitor with respect.

[Lori Weiman]

Thanks for your help Stepp and the feedback.

KeywordMax does have access to make changes every 5 minutes also. We do not go through the direct traffic center, we have direct access to the backend just as the internal tool does.

It sounds like they may a bit disorganized yet with the information they are providing.

Apperantly the overture sales reps don't know their pricing policy yet. they are not even sure if that will remain or change in the future. What they know and make sense is that the optimizer will be able make changes in every 5 mins whereas the third party tools are limited with the limits of the direct traffic center and features.

[halfacat]

They are insane with those prices.... you can get a better deal from the tracking companies... KeywordMax offers 150k tracked leads for $199 and it can be used for all engines... bid manager, tracking and ROI, and a click auditor to capture fraud...

It is almost as if they don't want you to use it. Or this is such a headache.. we are going to charge a bunch because of the annoyance it is going to cause.

It is fairly normal for an established company to come out with pricing that is above what you pay for more independent tools. This is because they already have a captive audience of thousands that will jump on this product like flies to ****e.

I am sure they are selling these like hotcakes to all the SMB's that are running their own campaigns. These people do not want to think about their campaigns more than two or three times a month, but they still like the DIY.

It will be interesting to see how the whole patent thing with iProspect works out.

[AussieWebmaster]

It is fairly normal for an established company to come out with pricing that is above what you pay for more independent tools. This is because they already have a captive audience of thousands that will jump on this product like flies to ****e.

I am sure they are selling these like hotcakes to all the SMB's that are running their own campaigns. These people do not want to think about their campaigns more than two or three times a month, but they still like the DIY.

It will be interesting to see how the whole patent thing with iProspect works out.
True it is hard to pass up shooting those fish in the barrel....

[seoauditor]

Seems like they have created yet another way to drive up CPC.

According to people at Overture they will be rolling out a bid management program to keep on top of their PPC where bids will be examined every "5 minutes" the announcement may come at SES or within the next 4-6 weeks.

They are also looking at Daily Caps and rotating ads... so obviously they are taking feedback from advertisers and trying to improve their products.

[halfacat]

Seems like they have created yet another way to drive up CPC.

Actually I foresee this having the opposite effect. Right now we have to deal with lazy users who only check their stats monthly and just max their bid out to get a top ranking. This is because the system is alien to them.

With this automated tool the system should become easier to use and therefore more effeciently used. Right now if they want to monitor their stats they need to either switch from page to page or download it into an excel sheet(once again Excel is the tool of the day). This requires more time and effort that the majority of folks do not want to deal with.

While this tool may limit some aspects of the market (similar tools, and consultants); it should help the market overall by creating more informed users and hopefully calming the fluctuations and inflation that we are currently seeing.

One can only hope. :D

[seoauditor]

I definitely agree with your concept, and I believe it will be true in some cases. The problem I see is that in the competitive verticals (Loans, Insurance, etc) you are going to get 3-5 large companies that do not mind breaking even or losing money place their max at $30, and every 5 minutes when the tool updates, each site will slowly crawl up the ladder. I am sure that like traditional Overture wars, it will reset itself over the weekend, but the weekly bids will be impossible for most websites.

Overture really needs to implement some hybrid of the google strategy on relevancy for THEIR own sake. I am sure it is fun to make $10 a click temporarily, but when the large companies succeed in driving out the small guys, down the bids will go again, and so will Overture profit.

They should nip this thing in the bud while they still can.


Actually I foresee this having the opposite effect. Right now we have to deal with lazy users who only check their stats monthly and just max their bid out to get a top ranking. This is because the system is alien to them.

With this automated tool the system should become easier to use and therefore more effeciently used. Right now if they want to monitor their stats they need to either switch from page to page or download it into an excel sheet(once again Excel is the tool of the day). This requires more time and effort that the majority of folks do not want to deal with.

While this tool may limit some aspects of the market (similar tools, and consultants); it should help the market overall by creating more informed users and hopefully calming the fluctuations and inflation that we are currently seeing.

One can only hope. :D

[AussieWebmaster]

Bid Gapping has always been an Overture trick of the trade. This new tool may actually have a reverse effect for that.

[halfacat]

I definitely agree with your concept, and I believe it will be true in some cases. The problem I see is that in the competitive verticals (Loans, Insurance, etc) you are going to get 3-5 large companies that do not mind breaking even or losing money place their max at $30, and every 5 minutes when the tool updates, each site will slowly crawl up the ladder. I am sure that like traditional Overture wars, it will reset itself over the weekend, but the weekly bids will be impossible for most websites.

So if you are not one of the big companies you will need to find multiple keyword phrases that are cheaper. I suggest you check out MarketingSherpa.com, they just put out a new survey covering the Search Marketing market. This is one area that they have found to be very under utilized still.

Keep in mind that in traditional advertising the success is measured by how little loss your campaigns are taking. Spending $6 for a $1 return is seen as positive in a lot of markets.

Recent studies are showing that you may not be able to directly connect a good percentage of the users that find you through advertising. 38% of users delete all their cookies on a daily basis and a large number of people are 'view-throughs' meaning that they see your add and then punch in the URL directly.

You may need to adjust how you measure your search marketing efforts.

Overture really needs to implement some hybrid of the google strategy on relevancy for THEIR own sake. I am sure it is fun to make $10 a click temporarily, but when the large companies succeed in driving out the small guys, down the bids will go again, and so will Overture profit.

They should nip this thing in the bud while they still can.

I love how everyone wants the Google system to be implemented across the board. All of the keywords I run cost 4 to 5 times more on the Google system and I get very similar conversions. I am running single and two keyword bids that attract technical minded buyers. On Google I have to take a loss most of the time. So to me this argument is sterile to me.

Just because the Google system has the notion of being more fair and is much more technically astute does not mean it is the better system. 'Complexity does not always make for a better entree.'

[Vural Cifci]

I don't think there is anything such as fair on either Google or Overture side.
But there is a huge cost for marketing.
Also I honestly started not to believe anything what either overture or other 3rd Party vendors are saying for bid check in 5 mins. Overture is claiming that their tool is the only one doing this(everybodyelse has to go through Direct Traffic Center which allows you to update 48 times a day) and other 3rd party vendors are claiming that they use backdoor to get into the system.
I want Overture and 3rd Party vendors to arrange a meeting to agree on a single claim before anybody else pays for another tool for bid management.

[Papadoc]

Actually I foresee this having the opposite effect. Right now we have to deal with lazy users who only check their stats monthly and just max their bid out to get a top ranking. This is because the system is alien to them.

No, lazy users are just lazy. Putting a new tool in front of them to learn isn't going to make them less lazy, nor will it make it more likely that those who consider the current system "alien" are going to take the time to figure out a new system. If someone wants a top bid and doesn't want to think about it again, then that's exactly what he will do and he will most certainly pay for it.

You see them all the time... the ones that despite the fact that nobody else is paying more than .80 per click, yet in some egocentric fit of delusional grandeur, they max their bid at $25.00 per click. At least until some morning they wake up and find that some unknown competitor jacked his price up to $24.99 for a few hours while he and his wife's extended family pounded the clicks of his competitor and wiped him out, and then once again lowered his price.

Though a few will certainly use it to their best advantage, Overture has done their homework and analyzed all of the revenue potentials. They would be more than glad to trade off these few diligent ones for the frenzied pace of 5-minute price leap frog over those that till this point, only adjust their bids daily or every few days. Though the weekends may cool down, this could maximize the revenue of many search terms by 10 AM Monday vs. sometime Wednesday afternoon.

[AussieWebmaster]

Funny somewhere else the people interested and involved heavily with PPC are called bookkeepers.... little do they know and thank God.

[shorebreak]

I hear a lot of people on this thread talking about bid management vendors (including Overture) and their various pricing schemes. In my opinion, either all the tools stink for anything beyond administrative value, or advertisers/agencies have become resigned to getting no more volume and margin from their ppc spend, or both.

A few points:

1) A keyword management system should do much, much more than just automate the bidding process. Manufacturing companies don't implement supply chain management systems for the mere sake of automation - they do it to find and destroy inefficiencies in the supply chain. Wall Street firms don't spend billions annually on trading systems simply in order to automate the process - they do it to find higher returns on their money. The same should be true in the ppc space, but I can't tell you the number of times I talk to advertisers who
-won't admit they're not already efficient
-won't admit they're getting less than maximum available profit from ppc
-base bid mgmt decisions on pricing (= unsophisticated buyer)
-equate bidding frequency with efficient bidding

PPC advertisers are way too high on themselves, too complacent, and conversely the bid management vendors are mistakenly equating automation with value when they should be shooting for return on advertising spend (ROAS) and to a lesser extent branding value.

2) Most advertisers and agencies never stop to think that they can get more ROAS out of their spend. They get their 1000's of keywords running, map them to the right landing page, write good ad copy, implement keyword-by-keyword rules via market-leading bid management vendors, and assume from that time forward that they're doing all that needs to be done. The reality is they are at that point merely at parity with their competitors.

To get and stay ahead of the competition in PPC, advertisers must:

- Stop daytrading keywords and look at their keyword set as a portfolio where decisions on each keyword must be made in the context of the overall portfolio
- Apply as much rigor to ad copy and landing page optimization as the auto industry applies to its manufacturing processes. This means far more than rotating ad copy and infrequent A/B tests.

[Papadoc]

To get and stay ahead of the competition in PPC, advertisers must:

- Stop daytrading keywords and look at their keyword set as a portfolio where decisions on each keyword must be made in the context of the overall portfolio
- Apply as much rigor to ad copy and landing page optimization as the auto industry applies to its manufacturing processes. This means far more than rotating ad copy and infrequent A/B tests.

Agreed! And in some cases, you will see this. But for many markets, you are not talking about NASDAQ clients, you are talking about small clients who have suddenly learned that for one dollar, their ad can be seen right next to the big boys. And to an extent, there is value in that brand association.

If I owned a job board, for .50 each click, my name would be seen right in there with Monster and CareerBuilder. If I am looking for conversion, your contentions may be right. But if I am looking for branding, it fer dang shure don't come no cheaper than that! Especially considering the fact that most of them won't click on my name because they don't know what it is. But subconsciously, the identification still exists and my brand begins.

It goes deeper. You are telling people that they have to mollify their instinctive and learned behaviors regarding being the top in everything. We are all taught that winning means being in first place. You come along and suggest that the best ROI isn't to win every inning and you gonna have some 'splainin to do Lucy.

Consider also that a high high percent of your PPC advertisers don't care whether running an A/B test isn't enough for many reasons, NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS the fact that they have NO IDEA what one is, and if it isn't enough, why bother to learn?

Bid management tools are built to do exactly what it is that they do. Some do it better than others while new ideas sometimes come along. But never never never will a bid management tool make someone use it intelligently, overcome his instincts and learned behaviors and teach him how to do something that he has no idea what you are talking about.

[shorebreak]

Agreed! And in some cases, you will see this. But for many markets, you are not talking about NASDAQ clients, you are talking about small clients who have suddenly learned that for one dollar, their ad can be seen right next to the big boys. And to an extent, there is value in that brand association.

If I owned a job board, for .50 each click, my name would be seen right in there with Monster and CareerBuilder. If I am looking for conversion, your contentions may be right. But if I am looking for branding, it fer dang shure don't come no cheaper than that! Especially considering the fact that most of them won't click on my name because they don't know what it is. But subconsciously, the identification still exists and my brand begins.

It goes deeper. You are telling people that they have to mollify their instinctive and learned behaviors regarding being the top in everything. We are all taught that winning means being in first place. You come along and suggest that the best ROI isn't to win every inning and you gonna have some 'splainin to do Lucy.

Consider also that a high high percent of your PPC advertisers don't care whether running an A/B test isn't enough for many reasons, NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS the fact that they have NO IDEA what one is, and if it isn't enough, why bother to learn?

Bid management tools are built to do exactly what it is that they do. Some do it better than others while new ideas sometimes come along. But never never never will a bid management tool make someone use it intelligently, overcome his instincts and learned behaviors and teach him how to do something that he has no idea what you are talking about.

Agree, except for that last point; the beauty of PPC is that, if the proper tracking mechanisms are put in place, perfect decisions can be made at all times without an iota of input from a human. That's certainly not the case with all bid mgmt tools, but it is with others.

BTW, nice site papadoc; sounds like a coool niche to be working.

[PPCPro]

Its amusing to see how sales people of bid management tools take every possible opportunity to present their case,and justify.

Haven't we heard of this Wall Street thing multiple times earlier.
Let the Overture tool be discussed on its individual merit rather than getting into comparisons.Please :D