Courting the agencies

[MarZ]

This seems like an appropriate post in the Outsourcing category. I've just posted a thread on how to get hired (by a client) (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?p=55402#post55402), so I wanted to start a different conversation about agencies. When I say "agencies", I'm referring to Interactive Media Agencies. The big guys that have a great share of the BIG customers.

I was having a talk with a small Spanish SEO company a few days ago, about the fact that the Big clients are generally or often taken by the Interactive Agencies. Of course, we can only speak for Spain, so we can compare that aspect across the globe, as well. But the idea is that these agencies already enjoy long term, set and settled relationships with big clients, and because they are already giving importance to SEO/SEM, a great percentage of these agencies are selling SEM/SEO services to these clients by outsourcing it to smaller, specialized SEO firms. (Although I've also noticed they are starting to try to build up their own internal seo/sem branches).

So in a way, unless you have juicy contacts, getting to the big clients, oftentimes can mean going through the Interactive media agencies and convincing them to outsource to you. Once you land one important agency, you're pretty well off, if you can learn to work in a double outsourcing model. It's not easy.

The questions are [sorry it took so long], from everyone's experience:

--How do you approach these agencies?
--What are the primary factors you know or think are effective in creating a connection and partnership with the big interactive agencies?
--What are the drawbacks of working with them?
--What have you done to overcome the obstacles of double-outsourcing?
--Has their work model or even ethics ever been a problem for you? If so, how?
--Or anything else you can think of that's relevant.

[TallTroll]

I have worked for an SEO agency who had other agencies as clients, and know others who have done similar things, so I'll share what I learned, and answer your questions as best I can

--How do you approach these agencies?

I found that they approached us. We did considerable advertising in the UK market. When approaching agencies, I'd mostly treat it like a big pitch, case studies, present your credentials, explain the benefits of your service etc

--What are the primary factors you know or think are effective in creating a connection and partnership with the big interactive agencies?

A recognition by the big agencies that they are clueless, and need to do what they are told for a change.

--What are the drawbacks of working with them?

They rarely recognise that they are clueless, and agree all sorts of things with the client before consulting the poor sap expected to deliver on their ridiculous promises

--What have you done to overcome the obstacles of double-outsourcing?

The only realistic way of making it work (IMO) is for the agency to be upfront about outsourcing the work, and to bring the SEO agency along to meetings. If they insist, I'd be perfectly willing to be from their "SEO division", use their business cards etc but you've got to be there.

Let them do the account management, handle the billing, take their cut, and the glory, whatever, just DON'T let an agency sales team member talk to the client without a handler present...

--Has their work model or even ethics ever been a problem for you? If so, how?

Yup, clients so scared of ANY possible legal issues that we were denied any freedom to do anything on our own initiative. EVERYTHING had to be cleared through the US based legal dept. You can imagine how much fun that was, not to mention the glacial pace of change

--Or anything else you can think of that's relevant.

The only practical way I can see to work with a big agency is as a true partner. If they do things without telling you, or make promises on your behalf without consulting you, everyone is in for trouble, and guess who's going to be in the frame when it all goes wrong?

[Matt B]

I have to agree with Troll on this one. Having worked for a small agency and then attempting to work with larger agencies has really jaded my viewpoint of their attempts at SEO.

They will typically approach SEO firms in order to have the expertise brought in. It sounds good until you start working with them and answering their questions. It is very soon that you realize that they really have no idea what they are talking about - especially when they give you the bottom line of, "we want high rankings, but you can't change anything on the site."

In agencies, artists and account reps have carte blanc to develop a client website, and most are done through a WSYWIG, as true HTML programmers are usually considered a nuisance and uni-taskers. Any request to change content, graphics or change graphic text into HTML text will be met with distrust, suspicion and possibly outright resentment.

One issue you may face is their attempt to gain as much knowledge as possible, yet without a fundamental understanding of the web, it's really funny to watch them try to process what you are telling them. (They are still in a meta-tag world.)

The main problem I found is that an agency will mark-up whatever you quote for the project, at least by 17%-20%. Some will mark it up as high as 35%. This creates a significant bill to the client. Realize that they will try to make as much money as possible from your knowledge and life will not be easy as a result.

Having said all that, I have some good friends at agencies, however, they don't understand the fundamental principles of the web. Agencies are a print-driven industry at heart, and it will take significant time for them to change.

[MarZ]

I can sense some serious resentment from both of you, and actually, I share the feeling. I have had similar problems with even small agencies. I've also written a number of proposals that ended up not only outsourced once, as I knew they would be, but apparently twice, meaning the client was getting a MASSIVE price tag, and of course refusing it. All this after countless hours of sweating over proposal writing.

I've talked to a few small SEO companies and they think the only way around the unattainable promises and demand for results without making changes to the information architecture, design and code, is providing consulting, rather than implementing the actual changes that you KNOW need to be done. So basically, you take the responsibility off of yourself and if they don't follow through with your consulting expertise, well, they won't get results.

Consulting will also eliminate the problem of trying to convince the agency's creative/developer team or the agency's client's team that their work needs to be fixed/improved. It's no doubt difficult to show someone that they've done something wrong, or not well enough. So you can avoid the bitter feelings and stubborness, by offering consulting instead. Think about it, they can't say much because they've requested the consulting, you give it to them, in a detailed strategy presentation or report. If anything, they feel like they got what they asked for and learned something in the process. Up to them if they chose to implement it or not.

Thoughts?

[Matt B]

Serious resentment? Nah, where do you get that? :rolleyes:

Consulting is one way to wash your hands of responsibility. However, you are the expert. Even if things are not done the way you recommended, you are seen as the reason for the failure, but rarely for the success. Bottom line, even as a consultant, you won't have the freedom, access, information or follow up that is required for a succesful campaign.

The best way is to somehow get in front of the client. It won't take the client long to see who knows their stuff about the web. However, it may get into a sticky situation of the client approaches you seperately and asks to retain your services. The agency might take that personally.

[David Wallace]

I'll chime in here as one who has experience in working with agencies.

--How do you approach these agencies?

Most approach us but in the early days of our business, we approached them with letter and then when letter, followed up by meeting and sales pitch if the letter prompted their attention.

--What are the primary factors you know or think are effective in creating a connection and partnership with the big interactive agencies?

Most large agencies don't know the first thing about search engine marketing and yet their clients are asking for it. They can either recommend someone else or simply turn them away. If they can offer the services to their clients through a partner they trust and even do so with the SEM partner behind the scenes, that is an attractive option for them.

--What are the drawbacks of working with them?

Often they do not communicate as effectively with their client whom you are providing the service for as you do with them. The client can then feel like nothing is being accomplished when in fact it is and yet you have no recourse with the client because you are "behind the scenes" usually with non-compete types of agreements.

--What have you done to overcome the obstacles of double-outsourcing?

Remove the obstacle in the first place (if there is one) meaning that we offer a branded service. The agency's client thinks that they are offering the service as opposed to outsourcing it to someone else. We are completely behind the scenes. Not all of our partnerships are like this but many are.

--Has their work model or even ethics ever been a problem for you? If so, how?

Yes it has. We being a smaller firm pay much more personal attention to each client whereas with the bigger agencies I think customer service can sometimes be lost possibly due to the number of clients they have or turn over in customer reps.

--Or anything else you can think of that's relevant.

Partnerships can be great in that you do not have to "sell yourself" - the agency does that for you. However one of the downfalls of landing those big juicy clients is that often due to non-compete agreements, you cannot brag about them (case studies, client rooster, etc.)