Welcome Google AdWordsRep

[AussieWebmaster]

We have a Rep from Adwords who has offered to help us with the various mysteries of the AdWords program.
Let's play nice and try not to scare him or her away! At least in the first week... let's see if he or she is still around after SES.

[Bernard]

Hi GoogleRep, what are the conditions that cause AdWords to appear above the regular search results instead of off to the side?

[AussieWebmaster]

Nothing like an easy question right out of the gate!

[AdWordsRep]

...what are the conditions that cause AdWords to appear above the regular search results instead of off to the side?

Nothing like an easy question right out of the gate!
I do love a good easy question! :)

Hey Bernard - I've just stopped by here for a few minutes between other tasks, but I'll give you some headlines. Ads which go to the (one or two) tops spots must:

* be reviewed and approved, and
* meet an additional performance bar that focuses on relevancy - rather than what you're paying

A few nuances:

Ads on the right are positioned by virtue of two factors, measured equally. These factors are Maximum CPC and CTR. Max CPC x CTR = your rank number. And it is your rank number as compared to your competitors rank numbers that determines position.

Ads going to the top, however, weigh CTR (which is a measure of the relevance of your ads to users) more heavily than CPC. And rather than Maximum CPC, it is the actual CPC that matters.

Hope that clears it up a bit!

AWR

[AdWordsRep]

Oh, and BTW, I'll come back a little later in the day and 'formally' introduce myself. I won't make you all wade through too much detail, however. :eek:

Just wanted to get an answer out to Bernard, who has been waiting a bit.

So, back later. Until then...

AWR

[AussieWebmaster]

Welcome aboard... now what was the line at the end of Casablanca?

[Bernard]

Thanks AWR, so basically ads that are generating the most revenue per impression get the primo spots.

Does an ad's daily budget also factor into the performance bar?

[AdWordsRep]

Thanks AWR, so basically ads that are generating the most revenue per impression get the primo spots.

Well, as I mentioned, going to the top spots is more about relevance (CTR) than CPC.


Does an ad's daily budget also factor into the performance bar?

Nope. Well, only in the sense that a campaign with a too-low daily budget won't show the ad all the time. And when it isn't showing, it won't be in the top spot!

But, other than that, no. :)

(I've just realized I should be careful with my sense of humor, as all y'all don't really know me yet. I do tend to be a little tongue in cheek sometimes, just to warn you in advance.)

AWR

[Bernard]

Thanks AWR. So it is possible for an ad that first appears in position 8 on the side bar to move directly to the top (over regular search) position if it had an outstanding CTR (and enough CPC disparity from ads 1-7 to prevent it moving up the side bar as the CTR jumps)?

[Shak]

welcome aboard AWR ;)

Shak

[AussieWebmaster]

We need more sarcasm in the thread... offers a little comic relief to the intensity which many take it all

[AdWordsRep]

As I mentioned earlier, I thought I'd take a moment to introduce myself - since I'm brand new on this Forum. Thanks for having me here, btw.

I've worked with the AdWords program for slightly over two years now, in a variety of capacities - all focusing on understanding what does and doesn't work for our advertisers. Perhaps my favorite role is to understand the needs of AdWords advertisers, and to advocate for those needs amongst the decision makers at AdWords.

Towards this end, you may know me as AdWordsAdvisor on another site - where I've been learning (and posting) for the past year or so.

For the past year and a half, I've compiled advertiser feedback into a weekly report that goes to dozens of folks across disciplines here at Google. And, I am delighted to say, that this report is actually read.

So, I'll of course include feedback that I've heard on this Forum in that report (unless I have specifically been asked not to do so). It's an excellent chance for you to be heard.

A few words about what to expect:

* I'll probably start slowly, and build up speed over time. And since I do have a 'day job', I'll be dropping by as often as time permits during the course of the day. It could easily be several hours between visits - so if you've asked a direct question of me, and I haven't responded, well, please know that I'm not ignoring you.

* I'm not really in a position to take on & solve individual account issues in a Forum such as this, and would prefer to focus on topics of wide interest. Because resolving individual issues usually involves being able to see the actual account, I'd advise contacting AdWords support directly for assistance with your unique account. I can offer some tips for getting quick and effective support, though, which I'll do in the near future.

* I can't really answer questions about what the future might hold for AdWords, nor am I able to discuss Google's business model. This is true now, more than ever, as Google is in a 'quite period'.

* I'll always be happy to pass your feedback on - and will make a point of doing so. However, I'll most often let raging controversies rage on without me.

So, I hope that gives you all some idea of what I'm about, and again, thanks for having me on this excellent Forum!

I hope that you'll find me to be a good resource, straightforward, and not without a sense of humor. :)

AWR

[AdWordsRep]

welcome aboard AWR

Shak

Shak, I must say that it was with real delight that I first saw your name on this board a few days ago!

AWR

[AdWordsRep]

Oh, and one other really important thing that I'd like to add to my introduction:

I usually tend to hang back a bit before answering, to see if someone else in the forum wants to jump in with the answer.

I want to be seen as another resource for a useful answer, and not as the resource. If my experience elsewhere is anything to go on, there are some extremely sharp folks posting here. So, really, I'd rather that people address their questions to the Forum at large, rather than to me in particular.

Most often, I will not be the first one with right answer!

AWR

[projectphp]

This is true now, more than ever, as Google is in a 'quite period'.
A "'quite period'" sounds aweful!!! Hope it ends soon ;)

Welcome, BTW, and glad to have your perspective.

[AussieWebmaster]

Oh, and one other really important thing that I'd like to add to my introduction:

I usually tend to hang back a bit before answering, to see if someone else in the forum wants to jump in with the answer.

I want to be seen as another resource for a useful answer, and not as the resource. If my experience elsewhere is anything to go on, there are some extremely sharp folks posting here. So, really, I'd rather that people address their questions to the Forum at large, rather than to me in particular.

Most often, I will not be the first one with right answer!

AWR
Seems like an intelligent way to do it... plus makes the rest of us work a little too!

[andrewgoodman]

Hi AdWordsRep, your answer on rescuing disabled keywords was great. I'm sure it will help a lot of people. Thanks!

My question is this:

Let's say I have my campaign set to show ads to the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

I would like to know how many of my clicks, and what proportion of my spend, were generated "down under."

Is there any way to do this?

If not, what kind of timetable might Google have for offering this type of reporting for AdWords advertisers? Obviously, it's a very practical thing for some advertisers, but in general, for those of us who want general trend info, the idea of how much additional English-speaking traffic might get generated if one turned on "all countries" is a real head-scratcher. With country-by-country reporting one could see the true picture.

(After the quiet period is over, I'm guessing. :D)

[DigitalRoad]

Welcome AWR. Great to have you aboard. :)

Jon

[AdWordsRep]

So it is possible for an ad that first appears in position 8 on the side bar to move directly to the top (over regular search) position if it had an outstanding CTR (and enough CPC disparity from ads 1-7 to prevent it moving up the side bar as the CTR jumps)?

Missed this question until now, Bernard. Sorry about that. ;)

I can't imagine a circumstance when this would happen. Essentially, it will be the top performing approved ads on the right, which also meet an additional performance standard focusing on CTR, that will go to the top.

Hope that makes it clear.

AWR

[AdWordsRep]

Say I have my campaign set to show ads to the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

I would like to know how many of my clicks, and what proportion of my spend, were generated "down under."

Is there any way to do this?

If not, what kind of timetable might Google have for offering this type of reporting for AdWords advertisers?

Interesting question and good points, andrewgoodman.

At present, the only way I can picture you being able to pull country-by-country stats from within your AdWords account, would be to create a separate campaign for each individual country. Not what you are looking for, I know.

I'm not highly technical (as you will soon tire of hearing me say :) ), but would there not be a way to pull this sort of information from your server logs?

I'll certainly pass your thoughts along to the right folks as a 'Feature Request' tomorrow evening, in my regular Advertiser Feedback report (as mentioned a few posts above).

As far as a timetable goes, well, I really have no way of knowing that.

BTW, your name sounds mighty familiar... :D

AWR

PS to projectphp and DigitalRoad: Thanks for the welcome! Much appreciated.

[Bernard]

I can't imagine a circumstance when this would happen. Essentially, it will be the top performing approved ads on the right, which also meet an additional performance standard focusing on CTR, that will go to the top.

Hope that makes it clear.

Uh.. No. Sorry. You lost me.

How do you define "top performing"? CTR? Revenue to Google?

[AdWordsRep]

How do you define "top performing"? CTR? Revenue to Google?

Yeah, I guess 'top performing' is a sort of nebulous term isn't it?

When I say 'top performing' in reference to the ads on the right hand side of the page, I mean the ads that have the highest rank number.

The formula that determines position on the right hand side is CTR x Maximum CPC = Rank Number. And the ads are ranked on the page in order of their rank number, with the highest rank number at the top.

Does that make sense?

AWR

[Bernard]

That is clearer. So only the ads for the top 2 positions on the sidebar are eligible for appearing over regular search results if their CTR meets some minimum threshold?

[pleeker]

I just want to welcome AWR and state how terrific it is to see 'official' people here available to help when possible.

I hope this availability won't go down in direct proportion to the number of SEO/SEM forums that go up. :)

[AdWordsRep]

I just want to welcome AWR and state how terrific it is to see 'official' people here available to help when possible.

I hope this availability won't go down in direct proportion to the number of SEO/SEM forums that go up.

Thanks for the welcome pleeker! Fortunately, I have multiple personalities - so I guess that I might be good for one additional Forum, while still maintaining quality. But that's about it!


So only the ads for the top 2 positions on the sidebar are eligible for appearing over regular search results if their CTR meets some minimum threshold?

I'd say that this'll be the case the lion's share of the time - but I'm sure there are exceptions. (There always seem to be exceptions!) I'll check with a more techy sort, and see if I can pry loose any more detail. I probably won't come back with a lot, however, as the precise algo is not known except to the engineers who created it. Those of us in support have just an overview.

AWR

[vinniesmith2227]

Hello AdWordsRep, I'm very excited to see you here! Back in the Fall our rep told us that Google was creating tools (similar to Overture's) to help us better manage our campaign. We've still seen nothing of the sort. Is this still in the plans?

[AdWordsRep]

vinniesmith2227, I'm not sure what tools you're referring to, so I am not really able to comment.

(And even if you had been specific, I most likely wouldn't have been able to provide much insight anyway, due to the SEC mandated 'quiet period' for Google.)

I can say with absolute assurance, though, that new tools/features are always under consideration/development/testing/etc. :)

Does anyone want to start a thread for your Tool and Feature requests? I'd be happy to pass your feedback on to the right folks here at Google.

AWR

[AdWordsRep]

So only the ads for the top 2 positions on the sidebar are eligible for appearing over regular search results if their CTR meets some minimum threshold?

OK, I have a bit more info on this subject.

The above quote describes the most typical situation, but there are in fact exceptions. It is possible for an ad to leapfrog when it has an especially excellent CTR, and of course when the ads above it are not reviewed/approved - as mentioned earlier in the thread.

It turns out it is theoretically possible for a leapfrog from the bottom of the page to occur, but this is not at all typical. Still, I guess I should never say never.

It would only happen if there were a lot of unapproved ads above the ad in question, and the low-placed ad had a really sterling CTR. (But most likely, if it had a really sterling CTR, it would be nearer the top of the first page in the first place.)

In any case - I hope that provides you with the info you need, Bernard, as I am about at the limits of what I can say bout the algo at work here.

Bottom line: the heart of the whole story is that going to the top spots above the search results is more about relevance than about how much you're bidding.

AWR

[Bernard]

Yes, AWR, that's clear enough for me. Thank you for taking the time to investigate and answer my questions.

How does one know if their ad has been reviewed/approved?

[AdWordsRep]

How does one know if their ad has been reviewed/approved?

At present, Bernard, it's really a matter of looking for your ad on partner sites.

When an ad is reviewed and disapproved, an email will be sent within a few moments alerting you to this fact, and detailing the reasons for the disapproval. However, when an ad is reviewed and approved, an email notice is not sent.

AWR

[andrewgoodman]

Interesting question and good points, andrewgoodman.

I'm not highly technical (as you will soon tire of hearing me say :) ), but would there not be a way to pull this sort of information from your server logs?



I'm not highly technical either. How did I get here then? So bewildered. :eek:

But having the chance to talk these things over with advertisers and analytics experts does help.

Clearly traditional log analysis gives country-by-country breakdowns, but probably not linked to Google ad spend. Some vendors would have put the two together by now, such as ClickTracks, who are actually a fancy log analyzer that does the same job as many of the bug-based ROI trackers. (Since Google offers one such bug-based tracker, it would really be good if the reporting for that were available by country, for example. That would add conversions to the mix too!)

As I said, I'm not highly technical. Thankfully someone is and they're willing to share their wisdom. :cool:

[Bernard]

At present, Bernard, it's really a matter of looking for your ad on partner sites.

What if ads are limited to distribution on the Google network (ie. no partner syndication)? Is syndication to the AdSense network a requirement for a review?

[AussieWebmaster]

What if ads are limited to distribution on the Google network (ie. no partner syndication)? Is syndication to the AdSense network a requirement for a review?
All Ads get reviewed ... you then have a choice of where to place them... the process is not any different for a content search (AdSense ads) or search search (straight ad words)

[eitemiller]

Welcome AdWordsRep - and thanks to G for letting you out to answer some of our questions.

I am new to SEO, and have been considering using's G's AdWord program. I guess what I am most nervous about it click fraud. How does G track the clicks on my keyword to prevent click fraud? One of the keywords I am looking at runs about $2.66 a pop, so obviously, click fraud scares me. Thanks for answering ym questions, and if want to give me a "free sample..." hehehe

[AdWordsRep]

...How does G track the clicks on my keyword to prevent click fraud?...

Eitemiller, although I can certainly understand the concern behind your question, I'm not really able to go into detail as to exactly how AdWords filters for invalid clicks. This is primarily because if it was known exactly what we did, well, then folks might begin to develop ways to counter those measures.

I can tell say, though, that there are many different measures used to distinguishe between clicks generated through normal use by users, and clicks generated by unethical users and automated robots. Such clicks (and impressions) will be filtered, and will not appear in your account stats. So you'll not pay for them.

I hope that this will set your mind at ease a bit. Now, about that free sample... :)

AWR

[eitemiller]

Yea - I should have been a little more clear - I definatly did not expect you to spell out the whole process. Just looking for some "pat answer" to give to my boss (who recently ran accross an article concerning click-fraud). I appreciate the response, and will pass the message on to him.

[AdWordsRep]

Eitemiller, I did a little digging and have a more formal and detailed response for you.

If you were an existing advertiser, and wrote to AdWords support with the same question, you would receive a response very much like the one below. I hope this'll give you the information you need to for your conversation with your boss:

Google strictly prohibits any method used to artificially and/or fraudulently generate clicks or page impressions and closely monitors clicks on Google AdWords ads to prevent abuse.

Google's proprietary technology analyzes clicks to determine whether they fit a pattern of fraudulent use intended to artificially drive up an advertiser's clicks or a publisher's earnings. Our system automatically distinguishes between clicks generated through normal use by users and clicks generated by unethical users and automated robots, enabling us to filter out fraudulent clicks. Advertisers are not charged for these clicks.

In addition to our automated system, we have a team dedicated to detecting invalid clicks using several specialized tools and a wide variety of techniques based on extensive experience tracking and monitoring fraudulent behavior and analyzing click fraud scenarios. We continually upgrade our detection mechanisms to proactively combat fraudulent clicks.

Please note that it is possible that a user would legitimately click on your ad more than one time. For example, the user may be comparison shopping or returning to your site for more information. Additionally, some Internet Service Providers assign a single IP address to more than one user. For this reason, you may see a certain amount of multiple clicks. These clicks represent legitimate users accessing your advertisement in expected ways.

Note to Mods: Being rather new to the forum, I'm only about 90% certain that it is ok to post this. I'll rely on all y'all to let me know if this is not OK. :)

AWR

[eitemiller]

Note to Mods: Being rather new to the forum, I'm only about 90% certain that it is ok to post this. I'll rely on all y'all to let me know if this is not OK. :)

AWR

If it is any help, that was exactly the kinda answer I was looking for. Thanks for the info, I will pass that on to the boss. Thanks for your time.

[flyingrose]

We recently discussed that very answer on another board. I must admit that I was surprised by this as were numerous other regular Adwords users.

If I were paying $2.66 a click it would concern me even more. Does Google have any official recommendations on how advertisers can best protect against click fraud and request refunds?

Normally I would use the Google toolbar to search a site for that information. Unfortunately Google's site isn't one that can be searched.