Is this a better technique to getting indexed quicker?

[RyanN]

Hi all, long time reader, first time poster...

A good friend of mine has recently purchased a site-mapping service from a company in order to assist in getting his entire site indexed quicker/more thoroughly in the major S.E.'s. He's not quite sure if it is in fact more effective then your plain "run of the mill" site map that you see on every website, and now that G has introduced their new site map feed he's not sure if it will work better than it, or if it will work against his site by not using G's tool. The URL you can view it at is

http://c21-florida.awsmsitemap.com

I don't know if anyone from the company that built this thing roams around in here, but if you do please feel free to email me or post in here with your thoughts.
I normaly know what I'm talking about when it comes to this stuff as I have been in the industry for well over 5 years, but with this recent Google roll-out I haven't yet researched all of the so called "benefits". In any case, your input is greatly appreciated, as I respect quite a few of your opinions based on what I've read in the past.

Thanks,

RyanN

[AussieWebmaster]

The new Google sitemap submit page may be all you need. Read the thread about it here and use their Sitemap generator.

[Marcia]

OK, let's take a look at what they're doing there. Did you happen to see where the *only* links to that page on *their* site are coming from?

Yahoo search (http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&p=link%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fc21-florida.awsmsitemap.com%2F&xargs=0&pstart=1&fr=slv1-&dups=1)

There are about 15 or so links on that page (which amount to reciprocal links as far as your site is concerned) - and two links to *their* homepage, one of which has their desired anchor text in it.

They are getting people to pay them to set up reciprocal links that are unreferenced from anyplace else. Fancy doorway pages. End of story. :)

[mcanerin]

Now, that's a dirty trick - make someone pay *you* to link to *your* website! Usually it's the other way around! It's a good scheme if you can get people to do it.

Honestly, I personally don't think the value of the site map is covered there, but it's a business decision only the webmaster in question can make.

But I'll tell you that if you were my client I would tell you to avoid it. (no charge ;) ).

Although there is technically value recieved, there are far better ways to do this, that deliver far better value for the amount spent.

Ian

[RyanN]

Thanks for the replys. I'll definitely take a good hard look at the Google Sitemap thread to get a better understanding of that aspect.

Marcia, your input saying it is a fancy doorway page makes me a bit nervous. A few years back, that was the way to go, but now it can get you penalized from what I can tell. Do you think that this site map will have that negative effect? Thanks again for the valuable info.

RyanN

[Marcia]

Ryan, it's a total oxymoron.

Question: how did Google find that site map?

The site map is supposed to get the client site indexed? That is totally ludicrous - that site map is on THEIR site and would NOT have been found if your client's site were not already in the index and being crawled.

There is NO way those site maps can get into Google except by links from the client's sites in the first place, which means that Google already HAS the client sites. This is, imho, a scheme to get the company doing them a ton of keyword-laden backlinks that they are charging people for.

Yes, it's a type of orphaned doorway page because it is an unreferenced page from the domain it resides on.

[cbown]

This site map is not a doorway anymore than any sitemap is a doorway. The difference is that each page of the site should be linked to the site map and the site map is never submitted to a search engine. It is just a tool for the search engine to use to find the pages on a site. The fact that it looks nice, is searchable and there are a number of ways to display the information helps with the human factor.

As for charging for it. The sites are re-indexed monthly and if a page has changed a new image is taken and updated automatically on the site map. A google site map can be created from the tool as well and FTP'd to the proper spot on the clients site providing that they give a username and password to do so.

There is nothing tricking going on. All the code is on the up and up. Over 5 years of trying to trick the search engines and so on has lead to the realization that if you play by the rules. It is a tool. It can very easily be userd to spam a search engine, but has been engineered to provide each user the ability to get pages of their site indexed into the search engine's indexes quickly.

I guess for those that don't totally understand what has gone into this it would look like spam but this is the idea.

1. One site map per site
2. Each page needs to link directly to the site map
3. Keyword stuffing is prohibited and detected.

There are a few others, I won't bore you with.

It is a real tool, not spam.

Chris Bown

[RyanN]

cbown:

Rather then tell me what it's not (i.e. a doorway page, spam, etc), why don't you tell me what it is. I still don't understand what the benefits of this would be in the "eyes" of Google vs. a regular site map - or even Google's new site mapping tool. To tell you the truth, it's a little disheartening to have this even compared to an "online scheme" as some have put it.

RyanN

[Marcia]

First off, we'll refrain from anything personal. That is well beyond the focus of this thread, and not appropriate. Rather, we'll focus on the issue of what the alleged benefits or pitfalls are of such an arrangement are or are not, particularly as they relate to the finer issues of linking relationships - if we even need to go that far.

The original title of the thread - the question that was asked:

Is this a better technique to getting indexed quicker? No. Flat out, no.

That page is NOT linked to from anyplace, it is a subdomain of a host that is unreferenced from anyplace within the host.

The client site was ALREADY indexed - which is how that page got indexed. So flat out - no - the links from the client site are how THAT page got indexed. Just the reverse- hence the reply to the original question is plainly no.

[Marcia]

cbown, tell us this:

>The "site map" is an orphaned page on a sub-domain of the host, unreferenced from anyplace else on the host domain. Right? If not, from where on your site is the link?

>Pages get indexed by Google by being found through a link. Right?

>How are the pages on the sub-domains getting found and indexed by Google? From where, from which links, on which site?

Tell us how those pages will help a site get indexed if Google will only know about those pages by links from pages that are alreayd indexed - pages on the client site, that they are supposed to help get indexed.

That is surely backwards. It seems more like the pages on the client sites are ALREADY indexed and helping YOUR pages get indexed.

Chicken and egg? Which came first? Hardly. Your pages will NOT be indexed at all unless the pages on the client site are ALREADY indexed - they are what are resulting in YOUR pages being iindexed - they are paying you to allow them to link and get your pages indexed.

Which pages are causing which pages to be indexed? You tell us.

[cbown]

Well, this seems to be getting a little hostile. :)

I didn't say that by linking to the sitemap it will get you ranking, it will how ever spread the top most PR you have accross all the pages of the site that are link to and from the site map.

How are we getting these pages indexed into the search engines if they weren't already? Through the use of a directory of websites with relevant and differing content.

We have done tests with different sites and different levels of "SEO". Using our site map tool has shown rewards. Is it the end all be all, no. It is something to add to the mix.

We have gotten sites indexed, not ranked, but indexed in google specifically with in one week, 7 days. We have shown ranking in the major search engines within the first 30 days.

Sites that already have position, we have gotten pages that were all but forgotten by the search engines to increase in rank.

Listen it comes down to this really for this product or for any search engine. Spiders and bots are very difficult to get to navigate just one website let alone to build one that will navigate all the terrible code on the internet. The great thing about the internet is that anybody can learn HTML or by a program and put a site up. The bad thing is that most people don't consider "is my site spiderable, or easily spidered?" What we have done and what Google is doing is making it easier for spiders and bots to find every page of a website.

If you build a website there are two pages you should worry about. First the homepage, get your message accross to the people coming to your site. Second the site map, get the spider to find and index as many pages of your site as possible. I might worry about the site map first. No search engine ranking, no traffic and why worry about the homepage. Not toally true, but something to think about if you were building a new website.

Most sites have such terrible navigation as far as a spider is concerned it isn't funny. We simplified the code for the bot to get through to find a link and are giving it some content that is relivant to that page for it to think about.

In the old days it was all about Meta tags. Now it is all about content and relevant content. This tool's purpose is to help the spiders find that content and improve ranking for all the pages of a site. That is too a point what Google is trying to do with their site map feed.

There is no BS around our product as far as other nav that spiders need to get through. The only thing is the top header graphics and search bar, and the footer. The rest are small bits of content, an image and links.

It may not be for everyone, and yes you can go and build one for yourself. But we have systems in place to help webmasters manage the site map, detect error pages and help make the experience of their website more enjoyable for people as well not just spiders.

If you have specific questions let me know and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

What will it do for my site?

It will help the pages of your site get better indexed. The pages that are burried and are difficult to find will get index.

Why is it hosted on another server?

We have found that it helps PR and the Google patent states that it helps. It is also database driven and this makes it easier for our team to make updates to they system and have them implimented accross all site maps.

Is it spamming or a doorway page?

No, but only if each page of the site is linked back to it and some guidlines are followed.

Why are there links to AWSM Technology at the bottom?

Same reason there is a Nike logo on your shoes, or a Chevy logo on your car. Does it provide us a benefit with search engines, yeah it does, but after a while and enough of them out there it levels off and at some point becomes nothing.

I hope some of this helps with the questions, I am not trying to be flip or abrasive. Just to tell you what our product does. It does work and has for years.

[Scottie]

Most sites have such terrible navigation as far as a spider is concerned it isn't funny.

Where does your data on most sites come from?

In the old days it was all about Meta tags.

It has never been about meta tags, and it never will be.

Now it is all about content and relevant content.

No, it's about content and links, right? Isn't that what your product is about, the links? That would be why it's on a different server, to try and artificially inflate link popularity?

In my experience, you get greater return on your investment for fixing poor navigation than by skirting the issue. If there's a reason spiders can't get around your site, it's pretty much a given that there are a number of people who can't navigate it either.

If all the links from the client site to the site map link to your site, isn't that a nice bonus for you as well? (And I don't know that they do, I haven't looked, but that is what the previous post implies.)

[stu2]

Hi everyone.

My site had basically dumped by Google. Google had visited my site 2 months ago and maybe 3 times this year. My SERPS positions continued to diminish, their index was full of my old pages, no new pages were being listed, my pages were dissappearing, becoming supplemental, losing their descriptions. I couldn't find even my site searching on my site name. I uploaded my url for them to crawl.. nada. I believe the description is sandboxed.

I uploaded my Google Sitemap. Within 24 hours some of my new pages were in the Google index, and within 4 days (last time I checked) MY WHOLE SITE WAS BACK IN THEIR INDEX! Ok, still the old pages were there but I've requested their removal via the requested url removal by uploading my robots.txt to them. They've confirmed that they'll be gone within 5 days. Then I'll have a complete and fully indexed site in Google. Something that hasn't happened in about a year. Ok, My SERPS positions aren't what they once were (probably due to Bourbon update and other issues) but at least my site is back and I'm getting (not much but) a trickle of leads from Google's SERPS. (All the while I've remained #1 in Yahoo and MSN SERPS for my main keywords).

I'd STRONGLY SUGGEST the quickest way for you to get your site out of the sandbox and get relisted (or listed) on Google is to use Google SiteMaps. Then work on the SEO for your site.

Forget about any other SiteMap options.

stu

PS: https://www.google.com/webmasters/sitemaps/login

[Marketing Guy]

Why is it hosted on another server?

We have found that it helps PR and the Google patent states that it helps. It is also database driven and this makes it easier for our team to make updates to they system and have them implimented accross all site maps.

Is it spamming or a doorway page?

No, but only if each page of the site is linked back to it and some guidlines are followed.

Artifical manipulation of PageRank is spam IMO. /shrug

The Google patent(s) also make reference to looking at patterns and spikes relating to various factors, one which is almost certainly IBLs. Regardless of the intention, setting up a page on a subdomain with ROS links to another site could and probably will be flagged as spam. I'm sure it can be justified in many ways, but Google doesn't look at business models or intentions - they look at linking models and patterns, and yours could easily be mistaken for doorway pages / spam.

MG

[stu2]

The Google patent(s) also make reference to looking at patterns and spikes relating to various factors, one which is almost certainly IBLs. Regardless of the intention, setting up a page on a subdomain with ROS links to another site could and probably will be flagged as spam. I'm sure it can be justified in many ways, but Google doesn't look at business models or intentions - they look at linking models and patterns, and yours could easily be mistaken for doorway pages / spam.
MG

I read over at webmasterworld just recently, that pretty much anything on a subdomain (unless you are a huge company) is going to be considered as spam by Google. (sorry, can't provide url, been at the computer too long today.. time to go to bed). See ya!

stu

[RyanN]

Marcia-
Thanks for bringing this back on topic...
Cbown-
Nothing personal, I just wanted clarification on a few subjects.

In any case, I believe my original question was answered in full...which is the fact that this tool does not in fact help to get your website indexed "quicker". But does it in fact help "deeper" pages come to light, so to say?

In regards to a couple of points Cbown brought up, I believe it has distributed out our page rank throughout our site (no matter how low it is), and our rankings did improve once this was implemented. Of course that is just my analysis. Should anyone like to see the before and after report I can send it to you. Simply PM me and I'll get it off to you. I don't know if that will be necessary because I know we didn't do ANY optimization on it before or after we implemented the site map.

I guess I am still a bit skeptical on whether or not we could actually be penalized for utilizing this tool, so if Cbown could expound on that, it would be very helpful as that is where all my concerns now lie.

Thanks again for everyone's imput.

RyanN

[mcanerin]

The point is, that the better indexing and better PR distro are a side effect of ALL sitemaps - including the ones on your own site. SEO's recommend sitemaps.

So, sitemap=good, offsite doorway with a sitemap on it=bad

Ian

[RyanN]

LOL....Got it. :)

If I were to simply add the "offsite doorway" to my site as the only site map, that would be ok then? (of course we would take down the offiste domain name)

Thanks again,

RyanN

[mcanerin]

If I were to simply add the "offsite doorway" to my site as the only site map, that would be ok then? (of course we would take down the offiste domain name)

Yes. And if you really wanted to make it work well, get some links pointing directly to it. There are some directories that allow you to link to the sitemap in addition to your home page, and those are very helpful for this.

Ian

[RyanN]

You da man...

Thanks again for everyone's help, the knowledge is extremely valuable. I hope that I can contribute in at least a small way to this community for years to come in order to assist someone in the same fashion that you have assisted me.

RyanN

[summerherekids]

after reading this thread, i am disheartened to realize that there are in fact three useless professions, and not two.

[RyanN]

Not sure what you are talking about....


RyanN