If a tree falls in the forest....

[PhilC]

If a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make sound?

I keep seeing that question around the forum so, since I have nothing better to do right now, I thought I'd give an answer. Ok, so it's boring, but I'm going to bed in a minute and you'll be rid of me.

The answer is, no, it doesn't make a sound. Sound is a process that only occurs in the ear and brain. There is no sound in the outside world.

It's like illumination. We imagine that, during daylight, our part of the world is all lit up, but it isn't. It's pitch back - just like in space. Illumination is a process that only occurs in the eye and brain. If light intrinsically illuminated its environment, then the whole of space would be lit up, because the whole of space has light waves moving through it - but it isn't lit up.

I'm off to bed :)

[Robert_Charlton]

If a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make sound?

Phil - I thought you were going to ask whether, if a phrase ranks on Google, but no one searches for it, does it really rank? ;)

It's like illumination. We imagine that, during daylight, our part of the world is all lit up, but it isn't.

Having studied physics for a bunch of years, I think I'd argue this one if I were in the mood, but I'm about to go to bed too. Sound and light have physical manifestations, whether we're appreciating them or not. It gets into a semantic argument, I supposed, about what you mean by "lit up," and that's too head-of-a-pin for me.

On the other hand, those phrases that rank #1 but are never searched... there I think I might go along with the importance of an observer.

[excell]

Sound and light have physical manifestations, whether we're appreciating them or not. The SE/WWW world moves on with cause and effort that is happening every minute :) and will impact eventually, whether we see it or not.

[Marcia]

We wouldn't hear the sound of one hand clapping, but there might just be a sound anyway if a tree fell:

A sound wave, on the other hand, is a longitudinal wave. As the energy of wave motion is propagated outward from the center of disturbance, the individual air molecules that carry the sound move back and forth, parallel to the direction of wave motion. Thus, a sound wave is a series of alternate increases and decreases of air pressure. Each individual molecule passes the energy on to neighboring molecules, but after the sound wave has passed, each molecule remains in about the same location.
MSN Encarta Search (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560639/Sound.html)

Wouldn't the vibrations still exist with th emovement of the molecules?

[PhilC]

I like the "if a phrase..." question :)

Yes, both sound and light have physical manifestations. Sound is caused by pressure waves in the air, and light consists of light waves in the electro-magnetic field. But sound only becomes sound, in the sense that we mean, when those waves cause parts of the ear to vibrate, and the brain interprets the vibrations. So what we think of as sound (noise) isn't created until the pressure waves in the air reach the ear. When the tree falls, there's no big >>CRASH<< in the forest. There is only a big crash when there are ears to be vibrated and brains to interpret the vibrations.

So when a tree falls, yes, it creates pressure waves in the air, but unless the waves hit some ears, the noise that we think of as sound doesn't exist.

Similarly, light doesn't intrinsically illuminate its environment. Illumination only occurs (in the brain) when eyes look at part of the environment. The light waves act on the retina, and the information is passed to the brain. It's an odd concept, isn't it. You're in a room with the light turned on, and you are facing in one direction. The walls in front and at the side of you are illuminated because you can see them, but behind you is pitch black until you turn around and look.

[excell]

So when a tree falls, yes, it creates pressure waves in the air, but unless the waves hit some ears, the noise that we think of as sound doesn't exist. Um ,yes it does, we just don't personally experience it - it doesn't mean it doesn't exist :D .

[PhilC]

Oooooooh no it doesn't :)

The pressure waves exist, but that's all they are - pressure waves. Until those waves cause vibrations in someone or somethings ears, then the noise that we think of as sound, doesn't exist.

[excell]

ooohhh.. ok.. you win BUT - You must concede that the *potential* of the experience of sound exists and is available, you just didn't hear it. :p

How about... you are stone deaf and the person next to you has sharp hearing. They hear the tree fall, but you don't - would you still swear it cannot be, just because you didn't experience it? :confused:

[PhilC]

The potential for sound definitely exists as long as the pressure waves exist, so we are in agreement there :)

If I was deaf and stood in the forest when the tree fell, no sound would have occured, because my ears and brain couldn't create it. But if a hearing person stood next to me, there would have been a sound, but only in that person's head - not in the environment. Sound is never in the environment.

On the other hand, if I stood in the forest, with a radio turned on, and an Oasis song came on the radio, there would be no sound - because I'd turn the darned thing off!!!

[rustybrick]

Is this an other blackhat versus whitehat there? :D

Phil, I didn't know you were such a philisopher...

I also love the "if a phrase..." question, very clever within the context. :)

[PhilC]

Is excell a blackhat??? :eek:

[excell]

you must be hearing voices :eek:

[PhilC]

You could be right :rolleyes:

[excell]

Besides the pressure waves may be a reality on a level that is quite beyond our limited ear drums. Many different frequencies beyond our knowledge and experience may register in dimensions & "worlds unknown" due to the very same wave that triggers the ear to hear a sound.

[Marcia]

If someone blows a dog whistle, we can't hear it but the dog can. Did the dog whistle make a sound?

[PhilC]

Besides may be a reality on a level that is quite beyond our limited ear drums. Many different frequencies beyond our knowledge and experience may register in dimensions & "worlds unknown" due to the very same wave that triggers the ear to hear a sound.hehe... nice

But just as time and events before the big bang are discarded because they can have to meaning or relevance in our universe, so must theoretical dimensions and unknown possibilities be discarded because they are theoretical and/or unknown.

:p

[excell]

How many miles does a whale song travel? Does it hold meaning? If so, who is the audience?

[PhilC]

If someone blows a dog whistle, we can't hear it but the dog can. Did the dog whistle make a sound?Yes it did, but only if there were suitable ears for the waves to cause vibrations in.

[PhilC]

How many miles does a whale song travel? Does it hold meaning? If so, who is the audience?2,307.5 miles.

I think that most whale songs mean that it's time to come in for dinner, and the audience is the whale's family.

[excell]

Yes it did, but only if there were suitable ears for the waves to cause vibrations in. My point exactly! So, if a... :cool:

[PhilC]

I thought that was *my* point :mad:

My whole argument has been usurped :(

[excell]

It happens like that. :cool: What else can we argue about?

[PhilC]

Light and illumination? String theory? (I hate string theory) Spam? :cool:

[chris]

The tree falling thing is known as a fallacy of ambiguity. It relies on the fact that you can define "sound" in a scientific way or an unscientific way.

The answer to the question to my mind lies in the question itself. The actual hearing of the sound is the measure/interpretation of the sound waves.

If we assume that something didn't happen till it was measured/interpreted (for example by the ear) then sure the tree doesn't make a sound. However, the tree also didn't fall (it was never seen by the eye). Thus, you cannot ask the question.

As this is a binary question and we know that this interpretation is wrong, it must be the other one. Thus, the tree makes a sound.

[excell]

somehow I don't think a debate on spam between you & I would be a good thing - we could do a raincheck on that though and maybe arrange a casual bar luncheon in mutual surroundings to accommodate the affair.

[excell]

Your outstanding logic impresses me Chris... therefore I will be perky enough to ask you to go check out the thread here about a new Australian search engine that is making waves... (with the view of reviewing it) and tell me if it is a subject that is like a dead tree falling or something else.. or if we all are blind or deaf or what. Thanks - now off you trot. :D

[PhilC]

Coincidentally, I read and enjoyed that aussie search engine thread last night, and I was impressed by your posts.

But I asked myself, what is wrong with gaining traffic in the ways that the engine appears to be doing? One answer is that those particular people didn't want to go to the engine, and so they have been ambushed. On the other hand, they weren't going to get anywhere useful anyway, so why not stick the engine in for them - it's better than nothing.

I'm just chatting amongst myself here - feel free to ignore me.

[excell]

Glad you enjoyed the thread down there and my posts... you said:what is wrong with gaining traffic in the ways that the engine appears to be doing? One answer is that those particular people didn't want to go to the engine, and so they have been ambushed. On the other hand, they weren't going to get anywhere useful anyway, so why not stick the engine in for them - it's better than nothing. "It's better than nothing" is not the way I would like to see a newest & hottest publicly acclaimed AU engine to be stepping out (how embarrassing is that!). Anyway I could go on & on & probably on some more about what and why and whatever, but the member lounge is not the place for it.

I've had fun with the trees, dogs, whales and am off my computer for a few days now. If anyone is wondering... I am gone. Take care now.

[PhilC]

I enjoyed it too. Enjoy the break :)

[Marcia]

If a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make sound?To be perfectly honest, if a tree falls I'm more concerned with what happens to the birds and the squirrels.

[PhilC]

They would hear it, of course ;)

[rustybrick]

They would hear it, of course ;)
But if the tree lands on them, would anyone know that they actually heard it?

[Marcia]

>>They would hear it, of course

So there you have it, Phil. There would be a sound.

[PhilC]

LOL!!!

Only if there were ears to vibrate. The birds and squirrels have ears, don't they?

[PhilC]

But if the tree lands on them, would anyone know that they actually heard it?Maybe not, but passers-by would sure know that something was up by the squeals and squawks that were emanating from the forest.

[DarkMatter]

It's a friday and I'm not too busy so I thought maybe this could kill some time.

I read this interesting article in scientific american a few years back that really stuck in my head.

The article was discussing the concept of free energy, that is, the possibility of deriving more energy from a process than you have put into it (contrary to the laws of thermodynamics). I guess cold fusion would be an example of this. I think most scientists would scoff at the idea, not unreasonably.In response to the article, a reader sent a letter to the magazine with an interesting idea.

Suppose you could create a massive fishing reel with an unbreakable and incredibly long line. Attach the hook end to a distant star, and keep the reel end of the rod here on earth. Since we know the universe is constantly expanding, the hook attached to the star will constantly be speeding away, causing the reel to spin. The energy from the spin can be harnessed to provide infinite free energy.

The question is where is this energy coming from? The expansion of the universe (and the movement of the star) is theoretically powered by the energy released by the big bang. But the laws of thermodynamics say that if we use some of the energy from the star's movement, the star should slow and maybe eventually stop. But it simply cant because space itself is expanding as a result of the big bang, and since the star resides in space it will not slow or stop.

Free energy?

[rustybrick]

And to think that I actually blogged about this thread, and then searchviews picked it up as well. :o ;)

[PhilC]

LOL!!! I like it :)

The star would be slowed, even though it would continue in the expansion. It just wouldn't be 'expanding' at the rate that it would have been had the fishing line not been attached to it.

It's similar to when the voyager probes gained speed from the gravitational effects of Jupiter's rotation - they actually slowed Jupiter's rotation slightly.

So the energy would be free to us, but not to the star, or the universe - imo.

Where's the blog RB - URL?

[rustybrick]

Where's the blog RB - URL?
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001684.html
http://searchviews.com/blog/searchviews/archive/2005/03/18/743.aspx

[DarkMatter]

Sorry I cant tie that into search engine optimization somehow, but like i said its a slow day. :D

[Marcia]

cant tie that into search engine optimization somehowIt may be stretching it a bit (no pun intended about the fishing line), but some remote analogy could be drawn.

deriving more energy from a process than you have put into it That's kind of how I see PPC, as compared to optimizing for organic search.

[PhilC]

I'm up in the middle of my night - I'll go back to sleep soon, but in the meantime....

Phil - I thought you were going to ask whether, if a phrase ranks on Google, but no one searches for it, does it really rank? ;)
There's a flaw in the question. Since rankings are produced on-the-fly, in response to a search query, no rankings intrinsically exist. So the question cannot be "if a phrase ranks on Google, but nobody searches for it" because there are no rankings unless there are searches.

[Robert_Charlton]

There's a flaw in the question. Since rankings are produced on-the-fly, in response to a search query, no rankings intrinsically exist. So the question cannot be "if a phrase ranks on Google, but nobody searches for it" because there are no rankings unless there are searches.

:)

I'll think about that one... whether the ranking is inherent in the algo and exists without the click. But there is sound when the tree falls... You've just changed the definition of what sound is in the course of asking the question.

By the way, I probably should have said, "if a phrase ranks on Google, but no one searches for it, does it really matter?"

That would cover a lot of SEO efforts.

Suppose you could create a massive fishing reel with an unbreakable and incredibly long line. Attach the hook end to a distant star, and keep the reel end of the rod here on earth. Since we know the universe is constantly expanding, the hook attached to the star will constantly be speeding away, causing the reel to spin. The energy from the spin can be harnessed to provide infinite free energy.

Might as well comment on this one while I'm at it. As the universe expands, the fishing line would expand with it, so the expansion wouldn't cause the reel to spin. Personal opinion, of course. I've never been able to get free energy that way, at any rate.

[PhilC]

The fishing reel wouldn't expand in the way that I think you mean. The universe expands in volume - the matter itself doesn't expand (get bigger). So the reel would spin, but the energy wouldn't be free.

By the way, I probably should have said, "if a phrase ranks on Google, but no one searches for it, does it really matter?" I prefer the first version - it's more akin to the sound question.

But there is sound when the tree falls... You've just changed the definition of what sound is in the course of asking the question. Dunno. Maybe I have. I think that the general understanding of the question, "... does it make a sound?" is "does it make a noise?" Cerrtainly the fall would produce sound waves, so the fall does make a sound if you want to think of sound as sound waves on their own, but it doesn't make noise until those waves vibrate the inner ear, and the brain interprets the vibrations.

No. I think I'll stick to my original thinking - that sound = noise, and that it comprises both sound waves and the reaction of the ear and brain to them. So sound wave are part of the mechanism that produces sound, but they are not in themselves "sound".

[mcanerin]

My undergraduate degree was a combined degree in Anthropology/Religious Studies. I never, ever thought I'd have ANY use for the latter half of that degree in SEO! :eek:

But these:

If a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make sound?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Are called Koans (http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/KoanStudy.html) and are not intended to have logical or scientific answers. As a matter of fact, a Zen Buddhist would say you failed the test as soon as you tried to find one.

In this line of thinking, the idea is that if you assume that everything that happens is the result of a series of events, then there can be no free will, since everything is the predestined result of the past. No free will, no enlightenment (or heaven, etc). Since Buddists believe that it is possible to become enlightened, there must be a problem with this logic.

The Buddhist answer is that since enlightenment is an extra-body experience, then using that squishy noodle-like mass of flesh in your skull to attempt to understand it would not be very helpful, since it's highly flawed, prone to error, and bound by the weaknesses of the flesh. You must understand enlightenment by skipping "logic" and going straight to understanding.

Anyone who has seen someone use perfect logic to arrive at the exact *wrong* conclusion based on available facts will have an idea of what the Buddhist masters were trying to get at. Perfect logic only works if you have perfect understanding of all the facts. In computer terms: Garbage In, Garbage Out.

A Koan is a test of your ability to understand enlightenment by skipping logic. BTW, the above two Koans, though the most famous, are also very basic ones - just easy to remember. They are not considered to be very good.

Apparently, if you are wrestling with a problem, a properly chosen Koan will sometimes "shock" you into jumping to a series of thoughts and understandings that would have been logically unconnected to your previous thinking. It's intended to be that unexpected bump in a rut that bounces you out of the rut.

The proper way to use one to get out of your rut, then, is to hit it at full tilt and bounce out of the rut, not stop in the middle of the rut and begin measuring the bump scientifically :D

"It is exactly the no-way-out situation in which the human being finds itself - that fundamental and unbridgeable inner cleavage of that being which is conscious of itself - that is said to be the way....[Zen Master Shin'ichi - tmc] Hisamatsu put this into a more general form: 'Do****emo ikanakereba do suru ka?': 'Nothing will do. What do you do?' He called this the 'fundamental koan' - i.e., the koan that is the common denominator of the thousands of extant koans."Ref: http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/KoanStudy.html

So, to bring this back on topic, I suppose a Zen master would respond to an SEO asking about their ranking problems with a website with a well known Koan like this:

At high noon
or in the dark moonless night there is a light.
Can you see it?
And, by the way, who are you?

Remember, if you have to think about it logically, you are on the wrong path.

Ian

PS: Religious studies attempts to look at all religions and beliefs without judgement or prejudice, making it very different from Theology, which studies from within a single given religion. I'm not a Zen Buddhist, so I hope I've done justice to this - it's hard to describe something this complicated in one post. BTW, this is intended as an explaination of a Koan, NOT the beginning of a religious debate - SEW is not the place for that.

[Jill Whalen]

Okay, but does it make a sound or not, Ian? :D

[randfish]

This may seem somewhat off-topic, but I've lately been using the rankings I achieve almost as AOL once used "keywords" - since I know I'm number 1 at google I don't have to give people the URL, I can just tell them to type "X and Y" at Google and I'm the first result.

I haven't applied this to business, but I do it all the time in my personal life. For example, I told my grocer, Henry, that if he did a search for Henry from QFC, he'd get a nice surprise. Sure enough, he shared it with his staff and they all visited the site.

So if a website ranks #1 and nobody sees it... Spread the word - it gets around.

By the way, as far as I'm concerned, falling trees make sounds whether someone hears it or not. The opposite position would be akin to saying that since no-one was around during the Big Bang, it didn't really create a Universe... (both can be observed after the fact, have measurable impacts, etc.)

[xan]

I loved reading this thread, its cool! \so many things I didn't consider!

I think that there aren't as many questions as we think.

[mcanerin]

Okay, but does it make a sound or not, Ian?

ROFL!

Let me give a classic Zen answer to that: What does a deaf person hear?

Ian

PS: that's not a trite answer - think about it carefully in context of this thread.

[PhilC]

By the way, as far as I'm concerned, falling trees make sounds whether someone hears it or not. The opposite position would be akin to saying that since no-one was around during the Big Bang, it didn't really create a Universe... (both can be observed after the fact, have measurable impacts, etc.)
That's not strictly accurate, randfish. In both cases, an event occured, and each event produced an effect that continued into the future - the expanding universe, and some pressure waves in the air - the expanding universe being the result of the big bang, and not the result of the tree falling :rolleyes:

In the case of the big bang (noiseless, btw ;) ) the effect of the event was recognised the moment a lifeform developed that acquired awareness, or, in scientific terms, a long time later. So the event did take place even though nobody was around to see it.

But sound waves are short-lived. They soon loose their energy and fade away into nothing. The event certainly took place (the tree fell) and sound waves were produced, but, if nobody with hearing was within range, before the waves faded away to nothing, no sound was created. Sound waves, yes, but actual sound, no.

[Marcia]

If there's a sound of a high enough pitch, it'll shatter glass. So if that happens and glass shatters but no person was around to hear the sound, the sound still happened.

In a way this reminds me of some writings of Dr. Wayne Dyer that say that there's no such thing as "things" being evil or bad - that those are only concepts and perceptions related to a personal choice, which we're free to make. In other words that nothing in itself is intrinsically bad in and of itself, and we don't have to see it as bad unless we choose to.

That relates because conceptually, what you're saying Phil, is that noise or sound doesn't exist unless there's a recipient to receive it. But the the phenomenon is there objectively, whether or not there's a recipient.

Ian
Let me give a classic Zen answer to that: What does a deaf person hear?
Question: If there's a sound that has an effect on human hearing facility but the only one around is a hearing impaired person, say for example one with nerve damage that prevents the "sound" from notifying the brain, is there a sound then even though the physical effect took place but the perception of it didn't happen?

Ian, I see this as not only Zen, but very Jean-Paul Sartre. Is there being in itself, or is there nothingness unless that being is perceived by "The Other?"

Lecture notes (243 pages worth) on Being and Nothingness (http://pvspade.com/Sartre/pdf/sartre1.pdf)

Wikipedia on Existentialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism)

[Jill Whalen]

Okay, but does it make a sound or not, Ian?

The answer to this question is that of course it makes a sound.

[PhilC]

If there's a sound of a high enough pitch, it'll shatter glass. So if that happens and glass shatters but no person was around to hear the sound, the sound still happened.You do err, Marcia. The sound waves broke the glass - not the sound itelf.

... what you're saying Phil, is that noise or sound doesn't exist unless there's a recipient to receive it. But the the phenomenon is there objectively, whether or not there's a recipient.That's almost it. The energy waves to create the sound exist, but not sound itself. So a sound doesn't exist unless there are ears and brain to create it - not "receive" it.

It's the same with light. Light waves can't be seen. If you look into space, you see lots of black and a some points of light, but the blackness is full of light waves. You can prove that by looking at a point of light like a star. You can't see any light waves from the star except those that come directly into your eye - it's all black round about. Then move slightly to the right or left and you can still see the point of light. No matter how many little movements you make to the right or left, you can still see that point of light, but it still looks black round about. So light from that star must be in every part of space. No matter where you are, you can see light from the star, but everything around it is black - you can't see the light waves themselves.

Light waves are detected by the eye. Only when they go directly into the eye, which happens only when you look at the source or at a surface that relects them directly into the eye, does illumination occur. Only when the eye reacts to the light waves does illumination occur. It doesn't occur by itself - it's not intrisically 'out there'.

Sound is like that. Sound doesn't occur until the ear reacts to the sound waves and the brain interprets the reaction.

Question: If there's a sound that has an effect on human hearing facility but the only one around is a hearing impaired person, say for example one with nerve damage that prevents the "sound" from notifying the brain, is there a sound then even though the physical effect took place but the perception of it didn't happen?The way I see it is that both the ear and the brain are required for the creation of sound. After all, what is sound (noise)? It's only a perception of something, and the brain is a requirement for that perception.

But impairments in either the ear or the brain can change what a sound sounds like. What a sound actually sounds like is dependant on each person's physioligy. The sound waves are the same for two people standing side by side, but the actual sound may be different for each of them.

I think I've got a bit of a proof for my overall argument...

We all know the Doppler effect. It's what happens when the sound of a police car's siren changes pitch as the car passes us. When the siren is approaching us, the pitch is higher; when it is going away from us, the pitch is lower. If the car is stationery the pitch is in between. For the people in the car, the pitch never changes, because, for them, the siren is always stationery, regardless of what the car is doing. For a person outside the car, the pitch depends on the person's speed relative to the police car.

So everyone has her own personal perception of the siren's sound, and the perceptions are dependant on each person's speed relative to the car. Therefore, the sound cannot be intrisically 'out there' - it must be created by each person for themselves, and each person will hear it differently, according to his/her individual circumstances.

[PhilC]

The answer to this question is that of course it makes a sound.
No it doesn't. See my proof above :D

[xan]

Either way, if its falling, best someone shout "timber!" instead of arguing if it'll make a noise when we run away and are not there to witness it!

[Robert_Charlton]

What if the definition exists in the dictionary but no one looks at it? ;)

As I said at the beginning, this discussion is all about semantics. I looked in my Webster's. Here's the start of the definition set listed: "sound: 1. that which is or can be heard...." I'm too lazy to type up the rest, but basically, the definitions of "sound" range from the auditory to the subjective to the mechanical.

I tried define:sound in Google, and got a whole page of stuff. Here are the first three...

- the particular auditory effect produced by a given cause; "the sound of rain on the roof"; "the beautiful sound of music"

- the subjective sensation of hearing something; "he strained to hear the faint sounds"

- mechanical vibrations transmitted by an elastic medium; "falling trees make a sound in the forest even when no one is there to hear them"

So, we can all point to one of the definitions that proves our position, but I feel the third one here is the most telling.

[PhilC]

Ah yes, but that was published before I put forward my proof. Newton was eventually shown to be wrong, y'know :D

I'm working on a similar proof about whether or not a ranking for a phrase is really a ranking if nobody submits a query for the phrase. I'm going to call it the "General Query of Relativity".

[Marcia]

if it'll make a noise when we run away and are not there to witness it!That doesn't sound quite right, xan. To run away there would have had to be some degree of co-occurrence or connectivity in the first place, wouldn't there? Not sure which one it would be, maybe someone could help us out and clarify which it is.

[rustybrick]

Marcia, flash back... Jean-Paul Sartre "No Exit", one of my most favorite plays.

[excell]

pfft - who cares...and the sound of the apathy resounded on the eyes and the ears of those that could see & hear... and it was loud! :D

[mcanerin]

I'm working on a similar proof about whether or not a ranking for a phrase is really a ranking if nobody submits a query for the phrase. I'm going to call it the "General Query of Relativity".

ROFL! :D

I love that! Very punny, Phil!

I suppose that the ranking before the search would be a potential ranking, whereas the result of the search would be the actualized ranking.

Just to throw some sand in the gears, in the same fashion I suppose you could call sound waves "potential" sound, whereas the perception of sound would be "actualized" sound.

Given that, is there a difference between something that is potential but WILL happen, and something that is potential but MAY happen? If it will happen, is there a practical difference between the potential and actual?

Or more clearly, if the tree falls and someone is there to hear it but the sound waves have not yet reached them; is that different from a tree falling with no one around? Or does it have to be actualized to count?

This is actually a big issue with ethicists, since it has potential ramifications not just with trees and rankings, but also hot buttons such as euthanasia, abortion, and so forth. Does the potential equal the actual?

If I spam but do not get caught, is it really spam?

<after throwing the equivilent of a moral hand grenade into the room, Ian jumps out, chuckles, and ducks ;) >

Ian

[NFFC]

It seems nobody is interested in the tree here, thats wrong.

[mcanerin]

I agree, NFFC, the poor tree seems to have received the short end of the stick....

[NFFC]

You are right, maybe we should branch out on our own?

[mcanerin]

You're right, pretty soon people will begin to leaf - or at least consider the participants to be a bunch of saps...

Ian

[PhilC]

I thought that nobody had noticed it Ian. Thank you! :)

Just to throw some sand in the gears, in the same fashion I suppose you could call sound waves "potential" sound, whereas the perception of sound would be "actualized" sound.I'll buy that - it fits nicely with my "proof" :D

Given that, is there a difference between something that is potential but WILL happen, and something that is potential but MAY happen? If it will happen, is there a practical difference between the potential and actual?Ah, but potential sound may not convert into actualized sound because it may lose its energy and disappear before it reaches an ear. It's called the "disappear before the ear exclusion principle".

Or more clearly, if the tree falls and someone is there to hear it but the sound waves have not yet reached them; is that different from a tree falling with no one around? Or does it have to be actualized to count?For me, it has to be converted into actualized sound for it to count as sound, but I do see what your driving at with regard to the other things.

If I spam but do not get caught, is it really spam?In this case, the spam exists, even though nobody actually sees it. There is no state of 'potential spam'. We are not meaning those cases where what is not considered spam today by anyone, is suddenly considered spam tomorrow by a search engine.

In the case of sound, when sound waves exist, actualized sound has the potential to exist, but doesn't actually exist until the waves cause a reaction in an ear, and a brain interprets the reaction. So it is not the same sort of thing as spam.

This is actually a big issue with ethicists, since it has potential ramifications not just with trees and rankings, but also hot buttons such as euthanasia, abortion, and so forth. Does the potential equal the actual?Let me put the question back to you. Does the fact that weapons exist that can annihilate an entire country mean that an entire country has been annihilated? I don't think so.

I think that we should leaf the tree fir another day. It must be syc-or-more of all these barks about its demise - poor sap.

[PhilC]

You're right, pretty soon people will begin to leaf - or at least consider the participants to be a bunch of saps...OI!!! You snuck that in as I was writing mine :mad:

[excell]

Just remember your roots. :p

[oilman]

If a man talks in the forest and his wife is not around to hear him is he still wrong?

[PhilC]

It wouldn't make any difference either way - she would assign the wrongness to him whether she'd heard it or not, and whether he'd said anything or not :D

[rustybrick]

Did the tree fall yet?

[Marcia]

>>If a man talks in the forest

If the man is talking in the forest, obviously he heard the tree fall; therefore it made a sound. So not only is the man wrong (as usual), but so is Phil.

[PhilC]

You are mistaken, Marcia. If there was a man in the forest, then he was there to hear the tree fall, and it did, as you said, make a sound - assuming that he had the physiological equipment to hear. But we haven't been discussing the scenario where someone is there to hear it. This whole thread is about what happens when there is nobody there to hear it.

I think the tree is still trying to make up its mind whether it's worthwhile falling or not, RB.

[I, Brian]

I think the tree is still trying to make up its mind whether it's worthwhile falling or not, RB.
Ah! Of course, this is touching the whole Heisenberg Uncertainly Principle and Schrodinger's Cat problems of the effect of the observer on reality.

Shame about the tree and the cat, though. Perhaps the illustrations themselves are not very ethical? :)

[PhilC]

Ah, but the Uncertainly Principle and Schrodinger's Cat only apply in quantum mechanics, and, whilst a falling tree and the workings of the ear can be described as being mechanical, they are on a much larger scale than that. ;)

[I, Brian]

Indeed, it's the whole 'event vs observed event' simply reminded myself of the poor cat experiment - seems like the "tree failling" issue is touching on the philosophical uncertainties of quantum mechanics.

If a tree falls in a forest and there's no one around to hear it - then how do we even know the tree is falling, if there is no one to witness the event?

Throwing in Schrodingers Cat - we may be able to state that there is a forest, but any tree within exists in both a "falling" and "at rest" state, and that each tree exists simulataneously in both states - until such point as each tree is observed, when it's probability function will then collapse into one state or the other.

So there is no tree falling in the forest unless we can actually observe it, and if we observe it we may hear it (that's where the argument of actual observation probably comes into best play). Only then do we know if a tree has actually fallen.

The original question is its own paradox - "If a tree falls in a forest but there is no one around to hear it, will it make a noise?", because it states that an event is both observed and not observed, and postulates the outcome from that. Conceptually, then event is "either, or", and cannot be both observed and not observed.

Well...something for the morning before breakfast. :)

[fathom]

Well - I don't spend my day thinking about dog poop on the sidewalk - unless I step in it and then need to clean my shoes - or have others commenting all day - "what's that smell"? ;)

If that tree falls and you didn't get out of the way - and it kills you - did it matter whether it made a sound or not?

[excell]

Gwarf! :p It might not matter to you, but it could to those around you - which brings us back around to spheres unknown and what affects some might not affect others.

[fathom]

Gwarf! :p It might not matter to you, but it could to those around you - which brings us back around to spheres unknown and what affects some might not affect others.

You missed a word: It might not matter to you ANYMORE, but it could to those around you - which brings us back around to spheres unknown and what affects some might not affect others.

[excell]

anymore is an option only you can select

[Chris_D]

Does it matter if the tree wanted to fall? I suspect the tree was pushed.

[creativecraig]

What about the snake under the tree?

They have no outer ears or ear drums - only crude inner ears that can sense very strong vibration. This would probably mean they would only feel the vibration once the tree had fallen... on their head, which would have killed them instantly which would also mean they would not have felt the vibration!

All in all a bad day for the snake :eek:

[orbbital]

I may be a bit late in joining this discussion, but going back to whether or not a sounds exists unless someone is there to hear it. Lets take it across to the other end of the scale for a bit. I am in a club with my friends, with lots of noise, obviously. If they try to speak to me, but I cant hear it, does that mean that they havent said anything? I cant hear them, so they obviously didnt make a sound. :confused:

[PhilC]

Ah. Whether or not they actually said anything is a different matter entirely :D

[orbbital]

What I was trying to get at was that just because something wasn't heard doesn't mean that there wasn't a sound.

[PhilC]

Ah, but that's been the whole point of the discussion - what it sound? I maintain that sound is like illumination - it occurs only within the body and not outside it. Before that, sound is just pressure waves in the medium it is travelling through.

[mcanerin]

Does it really matter if the tree fell or not as long as the lumberjack got paid for it? The conversion from "standing" to "fallen" is irrelevant as long as there is no positive ROI... ;)

If an email arrives in your mailbox but you don't see it, did it actually arrive? Is it "email" or just "potential email"? If you never see it, were you actually spammed? :D

Ian

[orbbital]

This is something that has kinda been bugging me (on and off) for the last week. I need to find some meaning in my life, I know. But anyways, I found this: http://www.getodd.com/stuf/treefall.html
It suggests some rather bizarre things about trees, that I would never even have guessed. You almost get the idea that trees don't like humans, weird huh? :eek:

[krell]

Yes, as was said, sound as we know it does NOT exist outside of a brain. The "sound" vibrations in the air are only POTENTIAL sound until heard. The ear converts the vibrations into electrical impulses and sends the message to the brain, human or non human, which registers and deciphers it as sound. If an animal heard the tree fall, then a brain made a sound out of it, and that is what sound is. It's only in the brain! We know there WOULD be a sound if we were there for our brain to decipher the vibrations. A tape recorder in the forest would convert the vibrations through a microphone to sound imprints on tape and record it. Then we play the recorder which reproduces the vibrations through the air for us to HEAR and our brain does the rest. Light is a different story. It's a separate entity that needs no medium to propagate through. It's a wave and also particles - photons. The stars shone before there were any eyes to see it. You can bet on that. But without ears and a brain, those vibrations cannot make a sound. The vibrations remain only vibrations. The actual sound is in US. The vibrations are external.