Outbound Links w/ redirect - what's the final word?

[tubanewsrose]

I've seen many discussions on this topic but no solid answer:

My Web Links directory sends links through a tracking page that counts hits to each link, just as a way to see which sites are more popular, etc. The link looks like myname.com/link109.html which then redirects the user to the actual URL of the site.

1. Is this hurting the sites I link to by not passing on my PR?
2. Is this affecting ME? Will a lack of outbound links hurt my own PR?

This is a small directory, only about 145 links in 12 or so categories run off an SQL database. Would it be to my advantage to forget about tracking hits and link directly to the URL's.

Thank you Gurus! I'm not the only one wondering this stuff.

[PhilC]

You can't "hurt" the sites you link to by not linking directly to them, but, if the directory is for link exchanges, then many people know that your links would gain nothing for them, except maybe a bit of traffic - usually not though. However you can inadvertantly hurt those sites if the redirection is with a 302 (temporarily moved page) or a meta refresh tag, which is common in such directories. See http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=2979

A lack of OBLs won't hurt your PR.

[Michael Martinez]

This is a small directory, only about 145 links in 12 or so categories run off an SQL database. Would it be to my advantage to forget about tracking hits and link directly to the URL's.

Thank you Gurus! I'm not the only one wondering this stuff.

We use Links 2.0 for our largest directory. It tracks hits and redirects. Those sites we list (over 1500) are only getting traffic from us.

I would not mind if Links didn't count the hits, but I did mind keeping up with the directory by hand.

From a Webmastering point of view, I would accept a listing in a redirecting directory sooner than in a direct-link directory (if it were small and new) simply because I would be sure the directory operator is not "selling" PageRank trades.

Of course, I would look at other criteria (I will not submit to any directory that requires a linkback, for example) before submitting a site. I am just saying I don't want to trade links with people who are obsessed with increasing their PageRank.

[tubanewsrose]

Definitely, interesting thoughts! by "hurt the other site" i meant "not help them by not sharing my PR" which though only a 4 is the highest PR held by any of the sites in my entire little corner of the internet.

I guess the root of my question lies in some things I've read from various sources saying that Google can penalize sites who don't make direct outbound links.

Anyone have any proof of these rumors?

-Rose

[Michael Martinez]

Definitely, interesting thoughts! by "hurt the other site" i meant "not help them by not sharing my PR" which though only a 4 is the highest PR held by any of the sites in my entire little corner of the internet.

Please don't take this the wrong way, because I really only mean to help you. But you really don't understand what "PR" is. I won't pretend to know where it comes from, but it is NOT the link popularity assessment you think it is.

And, that said, you cannot "share" or "lose" your PageRank (the calculated link popularity value).

You are not hurting yourself by linking to other sites. In fact, you are HELPING yourself because you show the search engines that your site is a resource.

My pages with outbound links usually outrank the pages with lots of inbound links in competitive searches. Why? Too complicated to go into here.

Some people will insist that it's all about backlinks, but it's not. Some people will insist that you need a high PR page, but you don't.

You need some backlinks. No doubt about that. A high PR implies your content may be more trusted and crawled more frequently. That is good. It means an existing site can get new content indexed pretty quickly (mine does).

How do you boost your PR? Through a variety of ways, one of which is to add more content to your site, another is to get more backlinks. Natural backlinks will come as you add more content. A popular method for adding content is to host a blog or forum and keeping posting good information to it. People will link to whatever they think is good information.

The truth about this business is a mixture of facts, many of which we don't know, but every natural Web site is unique, and its competition for traffic is different.

I guess the root of my question lies in some things I've read from various sources saying that Google can penalize sites who don't make direct outbound links.

A lot of people say a lot of things about Google. In my opinion, most of what you read about Google and search engine optimization on the Web is nonsense, or incomplete, or deliberately skewed (yes, there are people who deliberately share false information), or otherwise unreliable.

And virtually all of us are unqualified to determine whose information is reliable and whose is not. You cannot even trust the "common wisdom", because truth is never democratically determined.

[PhilC]

And, that said, you cannot "share" or "lose" your PageRank (the calculated link popularity value).Sorry about this, but that is not correct. According to Google's original equation, links out of a site leak PageRank. The original equation may have changed through the years, but, to the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence to suggest that links out of a site have stopped leaking PageRank.

[Michael Martinez]

Sorry about this, but that is not correct. According to Google's original equation, links out of a site leak PageRank.

No, Phil, you are STILL wrong about what happens there.

There is no "leakage" of PageRank.

[PhilC]

I've never been wrong about that Michael. Here's an explanation of how it happens:-

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?p=38788#post38788

[Michael Martinez]

I've never been wrong about that Michael. Here's an explanation of how it happens:-

http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?p=38788#post38788

You continue to get the facts wrong, Phil.

Again, I ask you to do an iteration of PageRank (I mean, plug the numbers into the formula, and crank out some results).

You can do it with 3 pages, 5, or 10. Makes no difference to me.

Just be sure to show what happens when an outbound link is added to a page after an iteration.

The WHOLE picture, not something skewed.

[tubanewsrose]

Hi all - I didn't mean to start an argument.

First, pardon my ignorance...I understand now that PR is a bit of an esoteric way to determine importance...that doesn't make me wish any less for the next step up - go 5! My site recently jumped into the top 50 of my main keyword from back in the 200's so I know I'm making progress. Been getting quality links from tons of little sites that are all related to my field...they obviously add up!

This forum is great, lots of information, often contrasting - but it makes you think! Anyone predicting the next Backlink update? I want to know if my hard work exchanging links with little sites (and a few strategic big ones also) is being registered with the big G but I realize they won't necessarily show up. Yahoo and MSN have already found many of them and it's only been a few days.

[PhilC]

Hi tubanewsrose. Sorry about the little argument. It stops here.

Michael. You have asked me in two seperate threads to go through an iteration of the PageRank algorithm, but the requests were off-topic for the threads. Therefore I decline to do it either thread.

In this thread I pointed you to a reasonable overview of how it works. If there's something you don't understand about it, please go to that thread and ask there - if the thread is suitably on-topic. If you want to understand how an actual iteration works, please examine JavaScript in my PageRank Calculator - you know where it is. If you have any problems with any of it, there is no need to waylay these threads - start a new one.

[Michael Martinez]

In this thread I pointed you to a reasonable overview of how it works.

Phil, I asked you twice because you have yet to demonstrate that you understand what it is about, much less how it works.

If you start a thread where you go through an iteration of the Classic PageRank (just use 4 pages linking A-B, B-C, C-D, D-A) we can probably help you get straightened out.

[sootledir]

You would get a lot more incoming link partners if your links were not re-directed.

[Marcia]

Apologies for the little side journey Rose, and welcome to the forums! But actually, let's take a realistic look at the PR situation.

You would get a lot more incoming link partners if your links were not re-directed.That's so, if it's reciprocal - but even so, you're liable to get more submissions (if you accept submissions) and if you're looking to boost your hub score then the more on-topic, quality sites you link to the better it is. Bottom line is that if you're providing those links as a resource for your visitors that's what will take precedence. The increase in inbound links could make up for any possibility of "leak."

A lot of people say a lot of things about Google. In my opinion, most of what you read about Google and search engine optimization on the Web is nonsense, or incomplete, or deliberately skewed (yes, there are people who deliberately share false information), or otherwise unreliable.Not if Danny Sullivan has anything to say about it. :)

OK - so now let's look at what GoogleGuy has said about just such a situation as this, and about "hoarding" or preserving PR in general. He does NOT share false information and I'd say he is as reliable as it gets.

Roughly paraphrased as best as I can and the way I remember it best, what GG said was something to the effect that people should be very wary about trying to boost their authority score (which comes from inbound links) while at the same time trying to minimize their hub score (which comes from outbound links). It was indicated that doing that can set a site apart from what appears as "normal" for sites - and could possibly affect ranking.

Unless you MUST have click-tracking, in the long run it is, IMHO, better by far to have a link be what it's rightfully meant to be - a direct link to another site, properly casting a "vote" for that site as being worthwhile to link to. That's the most honest, natural way and the way I see it, it's win-win for everyone concerned. You also will not be "disliked" by the kind of folks who could look at the site and figure you're trying to pull a fast one on them. People like me. ;)

One thing to watch for is if sites change hands and get tacky or turn into a bad neighborhood, but you'll need to check links every so often anyway, and if there are enough overall, 1 or 2 bad apples shouldn't represent a threat.

[tubanewsrose]

Good information Marcia!

It's safe to say that 100% of the people who request links from my site are just after the visitors, as my site is becoming a major hub for people who play brass instruments. It's a very specialist field and I really dont have to worry about things like "bad neighborhoods" - most sites in my links directory are personal, are owned by small ensembles, or are maintained by instrument manufacturers who have very legitimate sites. The people who I link to are more concerned with visitors from my site and my directory's ability to let people "vote for sites" and list "the most popular sites" then the search engines finding their site through mine. Why am I so concerned about search engine stuff then? Well, I have big plans for the future to start selling equipment and distributing recordings - so I'm trying to get the most traffic possible so I can make a career out of this. This site has been an invaluable source of information and thank you for humoring my inexperienced questions.

By the way, in the past few days I've jumped to result #32 (from back in the 200's) on google for my #1 keyword - I'm excited! Little incoming links really do add up.