PageRank in Toolbar 2 - No PageRank in Toolbar 3 (beta)

[Wail]

I've Google's beta toolbar running at a machine at work and on my laptop at home. I've noticed that many more sites have no PageRank. Checking the same sites with the old toolbar (on a different machine, therefore) they do still seem to have a PageRank.

Has anyone else noticed this?

The first assumption is that these sites with no PR in tb3 are ones which have been caught by Google for some blackhat technique but are still waiting for their drop in PR to be broadcast to tb2 users. That might be true but many of these sites continue to rank well in the index.

Actually, I should be more precise. Some /pages/ have no PageRank in tb3 (toolbar 3). There sites with a homepage with no PR but where every other page on he domain has one.

Since I'm seeing this effect on two toolbars on machines using two different IP ranges I conclude it's not something specific to me. I had a look around before posting about it because I find it hard to believe no one else has commented on this.

[AussieWebmaster]

I've Google's beta toolbar running at a machine at work and on my laptop at home. I've noticed that many more sites have no PageRank. Checking the same sites with the old toolbar (on a different machine, therefore) they do still seem to have a PageRank.

Has anyone else noticed this?

The first assumption is that these sites with no PR in tb3 are ones which have been caught by Google for some blackhat technique but are still waiting for their drop in PR to be broadcast to tb2 users. That might be true but many of these sites continue to rank well in the index.

Actually, I should be more precise. Some /pages/ have no PageRank in tb3 (toolbar 3). There sites with a homepage with no PR but where every other page on he domain has one.

Since I'm seeing this effect on two toolbars on machines using two different IP ranges I conclude it's not something specific to me. I had a look around before posting about it because I find it hard to believe no one else has commented on this.
Between firewalls, the occasional lock up of the process of the PR, etc. you cannot rely on the toolbar to give anything but a generalization of a PR number when it does operate.

[PhilC]

We, or rather Marcia, came across this a couple of days ago, but it didn't occur to us whether or not it had anything to do with the different toolbar versions. Since Google's homepage, and some of their inner pages, are also greyed out, we decided that it's only a glitch in the system. With TB3, I did see PR for one grey page on the odd occassion, but mostly grey.

It may be that TB3 is getting it's data from one particular database, which isn't complete, and the odd PR that I saw was due to a load-balancing redirect.

[lots0]

...I find it hard to believe no one else has commented on this.
I don't, toolbar PageRank is usless (some might even go so far as to say it is even misleading) to SEO.

[Wail]

I don't, toolbar PageRank is usless (some might even go so far as to say it is even misleading) to SEO.

Ah no. This post isn't about PR. This post is about the idiosyncrasies of Google's system and I find every one of them valuable.

[AussieWebmaster]

I don't, toolbar PageRank is usless (some might even go so far as to say it is even misleading) to SEO.
I agree PR is useless... or even if it has any intringic worth it is not such that it should be chased.
I actually did a blog on it today:
Boycott Google PR (http://www.smart-keywords.com/blog.html)

[PhilC]

PR isn't useless. It's a ranking factor and, as such, can be optimized. It doesn't make sense to ignore a known ranking factor.

Some people have an inflated idea of it though, and chase PR thinking that it will move them up the rankings more than it will. Some people think that PageRank is a page's rank, so they chase it. But, as a ranking factor, it can be made use of.

[lots0]

...I find every one of them valuable. I used to think that, but there are soooo many idiosyncrasies these days I can't keep up with them all.

IMO most of the glitches or idiosyncrasies are really not worth following now days.


AW, I like the blog entry.
I removed all the google tool bars from most of my machines almost two years ago (I do have one old PIII that has the GTB installed).

I never thought the tradeoff between seeing the little green bar and being forced to tell google every page you visit (and other personally identifiable info) was worth it in the first place.

[lots0]

...PR isn't useless.
Not talking about the "real" PageRank used in the algo, I am talking about the PageRank displayed on the tool bar... and it is usless, maybe even misleading in my opinion.

[Wail]

Google has said that PageRank in the toolbar is purely for entertainment only. I think that's been clear for a while.

If, however, there's a database with just PageRank values (which might be suggested by this) then perhaps there's a database with just Title tag values. If there's a title tag database then you could, in theory, just have a title tag update.

It's just how my brain works; a dangerous link of of "what ifs"! :D

[PhilC]

Google has said that PageRank in the toolbar is purely for entertainment only. I think that's been clear for a while.It depends on what they meant by "entertainment". That statement doesn't mean that the information in the green bar is false - it doesn't even suggest it.

If, however, there's a database with just PageRank values (which might be suggested by this) then perhaps there's a database with just Title tag values. If there's a title tag database then you could, in theory, just have a title tag update. From the beginning Google has had a seperate database for Titles and link text. For a search query, they try to get a sufficiently large results set from that database, and they only turn to the 'normal' database only if they can't get one large enough from there.

But PageRanks are stored in all the datacenters, and that's different.

[strategicrankings]

toolbar PageRank is usless

My clients insist that toolbar PageRank is important for them although i try my best to explain them that its not the only factor that determine relevancy of a page with respect to a search query.

So at the end of the day, i like it or not, i must give importance to the toolbar PR.

[AussieWebmaster]

My clients insist that toolbar PageRank is important for them although i try my best to explain them that its not the only factor that determine relevancy of a page with respect to a search query.

So at the end of the day, i like it or not, i must give importance to the toolbar PR.
That's the problem... running after the number is silly concentrate on keywords and let the number eventually come to you.
As I covered in my blog it is time to boycott the PR and work on the thing that really pays direct dividends - solid placement for keywords.

[lots0]

My clients insist that toolbar PageRank is important for them...
But you know its not...
Don't you think you are doing your clients a disservice by not educating them? (not making a judgment here, just asking a question)

Don't you get questions like, "why is that PR3 page outranking my PR5 page"? What do you tell your clients?

[PhilC]

We all agree that chasing rankings is better than chasing PR, but you are overlooking one or two things, AW.

(1) Google have said that higher PR pages get spidered more often. I may have missed where it's been shown that it doesn't happen any more, and it probably still does.

(2) PageRank is a ranking factor. Getting IBLs with targeted link text will help rankings more than getting high PR IBLs without targeted link text. But getting IBLs with high PR and with targeted link text is better still.

So don't ignore PR. It's a ranking factor and it can be made use of.

[AussieWebmaster]

We all agree that chasing rankings is better than chasing PR, but you are overlooking one or two things, AW.

(1) Google have said that higher PR pages get spidered more often. I may have missed where it's been shown that it doesn't happen any more, and it probably still does.

(2) PageRank is a ranking factor. Getting IBLs with targeted link text will help rankings more than getting high PR IBLs without targeted link text. But getting IBLs with high PR and with targeted link text is better still.

So don't ignore PR. It's a ranking factor and it can be made use of.
All things being equal the higher PR will get a better rank... but there are far more lower PR sites on number 1 for keywords than the other way around...

[PhilC]

That may be so (I haven't checked), but PageRank is a known ranking factor, and I don't see any sense not making use of it.

[lots0]

Google have said that higher PR pages get spidered more often.
I don’t think google has ever said that.
I do know that people (including myself) have said it and I believe its true, but if any google rep ever said it, I missed it.


I think we are talking about two different things here.

1. Publicly displayed PageRank (toolbar PR).

2. Non-Public PageRank - the PageRank algo that is internal within google that google does not display to the public and is actually used in the algo to help determine a pages ranking.

[Wail]

I think it's important to stay on topic. Debates about the worth of PageRank are nearly as common as port 80 connections around here.

Now, if someone was to speculate that the difference between PR on tb2 and tb3 was the same between public/internal PR then that would be novel. From the sounds of things, though, no one thinks that. (I don't, either).

Nevertheless, it is interesting. It's hard to envision a convincing technical argument as to why some sites are unable to display a PR value on tb3 and yet show on tb2. Are there different database/different XML formats for PR for the different toolbars?

[PhilC]

I believe that the spidering thing came from GG at WMW some years ago.

The toolbar number is a label, and raw PR is the real PageRank. They are different in that way, but the label shows something about the real PR, so for this discussion they can be thought of as being the same. If the TPR goes up, the real PR goes up, and vice versa.

[PhilC]

I think it's important to stay on topic. Debates about the worth of PageRank are nearly as common as port 80 connections around here.

Now, if someone was to speculate that the difference between PR on tb2 and tb3 was the same between public/internal PR then that would be novel. From the sounds of things, though, no one thinks that. (I don't, either).

Nevertheless, it is interesting. It's hard to envision a convincing technical argument as to why some sites are unable to display a PR value on tb3 and yet show on tb2. Are there different database/different XML formats for PR for the different toolbars?The only speculation that I have is that TB3 is using a seperate, incomplete PR database, and sometimes the load causes us to be redirected to one of the normal databases.

[lots0]

If the TPR goes up, the real PR goes up, and vice versa. Got to dispute that. I have seen too many times a pages "public" PR go down as the ranking of the page goes up... toolbar PR up - Rankings down, seen it happen many times. toolbar PR down - Rankings up, again seen it happen many times.

Now, if someone was to speculate that the difference between PR on tb2 and tb3 was the same between public/internal PR then that would be novel. Is that not what is going on?
I don't think too many people here dispute that there is more than one PR db.

[SEORoy]

Couple of days ago I was discussing same thing on this forum...

that higher PR pages get spidered more often

I have two of my sites where Googlebot crawling at different intervals...My PR 5 website gets crawled everyday...whereas my PR 4 website gets crawled every 2-3 days...sometimes more..and My PR 4 has basically more backlinks than the PR 5 website... so it means that should have been easier for Google to reach my PR 4 site...than reaching PR 5 Site... however PR 4 site does not get crawled as frequently as the PR 5 site... so right now (unless proven otherwise)..I have to assume/deduce that higher PR does indeed mean you get spidered more often

my 2 cts

[PhilC]

Got to dispute that. I have seen too many times a pages "public" PR go down as the ranking of the page goes up... toolbar PR up - Rankings down, seen it happen many times. toolbar PR down - Rankings up, again seen it happen many times.That's different. I said that when the TPR goes up, the real PR goes up (has gone up), and vice versa. Rankings are different. PageRank will decrease with increases in the size of the index, but rankings won't follow. But again, this is off-topic.

[Marcia]

We, or rather Marcia, came across this a couple of days ago, but it didn't occur to us whether or not it had anything to do with the different toolbar versions.Actually, when I ran over whining it did come to mind because several days before the tool bar disappeared altogether so I downloaded the Beta - and that's when I stopped seeing Google's PR.

But I hadn't noticed my own gone, and when I did see that, rather got upset about that tacky 302 redirect I'd found. I'm still not happy about it disappearing with the Beta - because other sites I looked at did NOT have it missing - except for Google.

And it looks like it's definitely something to do with the toolbar Beta, I uninstalled it and went back to the previous version and everything looks normal again now.

This is VERY suspicious, I can't imagine what they're doing with this beta and it's too scary to think it might have somethng to do with the new "Cloakbar" feature they've cooked up.

[lots0]

That's different. I said that when the TPR goes up, the real PR goes up (has gone up), and vice versa. Rankings are different. PageRank will decrease with increases in the size of the index, but rankings won't follow. But again, this is off-topic. oops, misunderstood you, my bad, I'll shut-up now.

[PhilC]

What's the new "cloakbar" feature?

[Wail]

Never heard of Cloakbar until this thread. However; I like to speculate.

Here's some of what tb3 can do; it can parse your HTML and look for things to AutoLink and it can read through your forms and look for spelling errors to correct.

That suggests to me that it's good at reading HTML. If you're running tb3 then you're also running Internet Explorer.

If you're displaying PageRank then you've agreed to let Google know what page you're on.

So (and cutting to the point) the toolbar can let Google know what the page looks like to your version of Internet Explorer. Google can check to see if this is different to what Googlebot reported the page as appearing to be.

Toolbar 3 could be used to look for cloaking.

[PhilC]

It could be, but cloaking is very easy to spot for engines. They just need to send crawlers round with different IP addresses, and compare what they find with what they've got. It's thought that AV used to do that.