Reducing the Gap - Information Retrieval (IR) and Search Engine Optimization (SEO)

[orion]

Moderation Note: This thread was split from the What is Keyword Competitiveness? (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=4374) thread.

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I was yesterday talking with Professor Brian Davison, Chair of AIRWeb, a workshop session of the W3C to be held in Japan in May, 2005. The goal of AIRWeb and Brian is to trying to reduce the gap between SEOs and IR folks. I mentioned to him I'm all for that and that's why I post and moderate the SEWF. I know that part of this endeveour consists in receiving fire from both sides, SEOs and IRs, but that's fine with me. If I succeed at reducing the knowledge divide between SEOs and IR colleagues I may have accomplished something positive.

Cheers

Orion

[DanThies]

On other matters, since I introduced the c-index and EF-ratio metrics there have been some reactionary SEOs misunderstanding what a scientific approach can or cannot do.
It's not the easiest thing to understand! ;)

A lot of folks want a copy of the search engine's algorithm, or to reverse engineer it. One of the things you've shown us is that a copy of the algorithm, by itself, won't give you "the answers." You also need access to the database. What's interesting in your work is to see how much we can get out of simply having access to the database through public search functions.

[xan]

Hi Orion,

I know you presented at that conference and everything, and i'm sure it was interesting, but I don't get the whole EF thing.
I agree with Mel really. I don't see the use of applying it as it won't give any better an idea than any other method.

"The goal of AIRWeb and Brian is to trying to reduce the gap between SEOs and IR folks. I mentioned to him I'm all for that and that's why I post and moderate the SEWF. I know that part of this endeveour consists in receiving fire from both sides, SEOs and IRs, but that's fine with me. If I succeed at reducing the knowledge divide between SEOs and IR colleagues I may have accomplished something positive."

hehehehehehehe......its going to take a whole lot more than that I think. Perhaps a good start is getting researchers and IR pros to acknowledge seo's. Many have no idea about seo people at all. Just that some people try to manipulate results. I also think pulling the gap closer is useful for both, but for this we have to still acknowledge that the motivations of search providers and seo's are quite the opposite of each other.

I think its actually better to talk about search providers and search scientists, because IR goes way beyond web search. For many IR scientists seo is irrelevant.

You'll be hard pressed to find a research paper done by our folks on seo tactics.

Seems to me you are into fractal everything! I don't share your enthusiasm as yet, but who knows.

[orion]

It's not the easiest thing to understand! ;)

A lot of folks want a copy of the search engine's algorithm, or to reverse engineer it. One of the things you've shown us is that a copy of the algorithm, by itself, won't give you "the answers." You also need access to the database. What's interesting in your work is to see how much we can get out of simply having access to the database through public search functions.
Thanks, Dan. I'm all for trying to educate the industry.

Orion

[orion]

Hi Orion,

I know you presented at that conference and everything, and i'm sure it was interesting, but I don't get the whole EF thing.Sorry to here this, xan. For unbiased references, you may want to ask around those marketing firms that are actually using the metric.


I agree with Mel really.
I don't.



"The goal of AIRWeb and Brian is to trying to reduce the gap between SEOs and IR folks. I mentioned to him I'm all for that and that's why I post and moderate the SEWF. I know that part of this endeveour consists in receiving fire from both sides, SEOs and IRs, but that's fine with me. If I succeed at reducing the knowledge divide between SEOs and IR colleagues I may have accomplished something positive."

hehehehehehehe......its going to take a whole lot more than that I think. Perhaps a good start is getting researchers and IR pros to acknowledge seo's.
Many have no idea about seo people at all.

He,he,he. The same goes for SEOs. SEOs may want to acknowledge IR folks as they have no idea about IR people at all, as well.

Professor Brian Davison is at Lehigh University, Department of Computer Sciences an Engineering, College of Engineering and Applied Science. He is the Chairman of AIRWeb.

The goal of the W3C via the AIRWeb workshop is to actually reduce the knowledge divide between SEOs and IR folks and the perception one side has on the other. As part of the SMA-NA, I'm putting together with Ian Mcanerin and help from universities and colleages an educational event on search engines precisely for that purpose.

We expect to have top gun IR researchers, marketers as well as publishers and editorial firms involved. So yes, the goal is to unify and not to divide by segmenting the two sectors. The time has come for seos, sems and IR folks to reach out and help each other. There is no room for reactionaries in this project, but anyone has the right not to participate in the international efforts that are coming.


Seems to me you are into fractal everything! My doctoral thesis is on applied fractal geometry.

Cheers

Orion

[xan]

Hey-ho,

I'm well aware of airweb, I spoke to someone quite involved with it as well. It seems a good event. I've always said search engines and seo's should work together, but one of the two is a steam roller, and perhaps believes its not its interest.

I still think IR is a huge term to apply to search engineers, because IR is so vast. Its not just about search.

There's seo conferences as you inform me asking search people to join, but no scientific IR conference has any seo people coming.

Its very very difficult to bridge a gap like that because seo has a great advantage to understanding more about search, but the search dudes don't feel they have anything to learn from seo which can help.

I understand now about the fractal obsession! :)

Mine is in computational linguistics and A.I

[orion]

Thanks, xan.

Now I understand how you feel. I feel your pain, too.

Applied Fractal Geometry: currently applying it to IR and semantics. Great research projects undergoing. What a great life and world we are living in these days.

Orion

[orion]

Its very very difficult to bridge a gap like that because seo has a great advantage to understanding more about search,...
Actually, there are many well known seo firms that have the wrong knowledge on how actually search engines work. Even many well known firms and SES speakers have been preaching things are not quite correct, but these are the few.

...but the search dudes don't feel they have anything to learn from seo which can help.
I would assume AIRWeb organizers and many colleages I know are not part of that group. I do see many IR folks and academics really interested in what seos have to say about the real world, at least those that I'm in contact with.

Cheers

Orion

[xan]

I don't know, my experience isn't like yours. At many pretty prestigious conferences, colloquiums, even workshops, I don't see there being a large amount of concern with this side of things, and I do ask.

But agreed, I have also read some pretty far fetched things, and I have to be honest, things that are just hilarious!

I think we're probably getting off topic for this thread, but I think its probably more important to establish what search providers have to gain from seo, this way reluctance may dissipate, who knows.

As I said, the larger part of the IR community isn't affected by seo though.

[orion]

As I said, the larger part of the IR community isn't affected by seo though.
I must agree with you on this. There is a larger portion alienated from the real world.

Orion

[hardball]

At what corpus size does "IR" kick in vs. database management? I know the answer can't be pinpoint specific but do the majority of IR folks play around with billions of documents or millions?

[orion]

Hi, hardball

I personally don't know of IR systems dealing with a corpus in the billion range.

Orion

[xan]

It will happen in the very near future, especially with medical records, and clinical data, not to mention the annotation of chemical compounds and all those things. Certain repositories definately are around the billion mark, xerox certainly has that many. Not to mention digital libraries being compiled.

IR isn't alienated from the real world, it just has nothing to do with seo. This would be because they don't deal with the web, like the military for example. Their data has no one to manipulate it, and it isn't compiled in the way web data is, even if it looks the same. A repository like the ACM will have a standard enforfced, because it can.

[orion]

I must agree with you on this.


Orion