SEO pay for performance

[trevovski1]

I own a profitable site but am spending a lot on google adwords/overture. I think that my investment could be better spent on some good SEO work but given the vast amount of people out there claiming to be experts, picking one is difficult.

I was wondering if its possible to contract with one to provide seo services and be paid on a monthly basis depending on where the site ranks on avarage over the course of that month. This way if they are good and are confident in their ability then they will probably earn more than normal and if not I don't have to pay for nothing.

Anyone got any ideas/suggestions.

Thanks
Trev

[lots0]

I think what your looking for is called an "Affiliate program".

I have been asked to work on a "pay for performance" basis before, I was never able to figure out how base my fees. Both myself and the client walked away from this deal feeling like we had both been badly used.

I think both the client and myself would have felt better if we had just went with an affiliate program where I would have gotten a percent of each sale MY efforts generated.

I grew to despise this client, his product and his site and he felt the same way about me. I think this was because we spent do much time trying to figure out what percent of the profit was due to my efforts and what would have been generated by the site itself without my help (a once a month nightmare).

FYI: Not looking for a job - just spouting off. :)

[trevovski1]

Actually I have a high paying aff program and this can be used also, but I was thinking more along the line of regular seo work but being paid for SE positioning rather than acquisition.

[Jill Whalen]

There are SEO companies that do this, however, the generally build an additional site for you, so that all clicks, traffic, sales, etc. can be monitored. I believe MakeMeTop has a program that would work the way you're looking for. You may want to try to contact them. (They are picky about the customers they take, however!)

[Marcia]

SEO companies that do this
I believe massa does very something similar, but it's been my impression that Bob operates in some highly competitve industries, though.

[lots0]

...I was thinking more along the line of regular seo work but being paid for SE positioning rather than acquisition.
Good Luck! Your going to need it.

From personal experience, I would tell everyone to stay far far away from Bob Massa (the owner of searchking) and/or any type of business he is in.
I can't believe that a moderator here would be recomending massa for anything with his past and current record.

Before you decide to use massa, do a search on these (or any SEO forums) for "searchking" or "bob massa", then decide for yourself.

been my impression that Bob operates in some highly competitve industries, though. More like highly questionable and shady...

[ferret77]

just curious but what do you consider "highly questionable and shady" industries?

[lots0]

I am only going to say two things on this and they are just my views and opinions.

1. Bob has on several occasions, without their knowledge or permission, knowing put his customers and/or partners at extreme risk and caused them financial losses. I think that is both “questionable” and “shady”.

2. I don’t think you’ll find many long time customers or partners of Bob that would recommend him to a friend.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

Personally I have found "pay per rank" to be one of the worst business models - for both the site owner and the SEO. There are simply too many things to disagree on - all the way from the beginning to the end. It's just a pure nightmare. Therefore I do not, like most other experienced SEOs, offer this service. I do, however, like many others make CPA deals (based on sign ups, donloads, lead generation or sales).

You should seriously reconsider if a page per rank deal is realy whats best for you...

[spidersplat]

Hi Trev,
We have something simlar that we offer our clients. That is our PPPA model (Pay-Per-Performance Advertising™). The basic idea is that we take over all online advertising of your site for a set monthly fee and a guaranteed set of deliverables (usually total sales). If we deliver less then the promised sales you get a refund, and if we over deliver we get a bonus.

Feel free to contact me if you want some more details.

-Alon
I was wondering if its possible to contract with one to provide seo services and be paid on a monthly basis depending on where the site ranks on avarage over the course of that month.
Anyone got any ideas/suggestions.

Thanks
Trev

[Marcia]

paid on a monthly basis depending on where the site ranks on avarage over the course of that month.
That puts all the financial risk on the one side, and with the volatility of search results it had better be a hefty fee. Plus, depending on the market and the methods it takes to rank for some, there can be an element of risk for the site owner if highly aggressive methods are used.

On the other hand, based on sales it's dependent on the ability of the site to convert, and is still one-sided for risk unless there's a proven history of good conversions.

highly questionable and shady...
Some industries are highly questionable and shady in themselves, going out the gate, and in reality for some it appears that it takes highly questionable and shady methods to be able to compete.

extreme risk
The risk is on the side of the "sender" who delivers the traffic - it's only traffic delivered that's paid for. And if the one delivering the traffic couldn't deliver they'd be out there waiting tables at the local beanery instead of being in the business.

regular seo work but being paid for SE positioning rather than acquisition.
The best and most economical route long-term is "regular SEO" with the business arrangement handled the "regular" way.

[projectphp]

Pay for rankings is dumb. It won't work because the incentive is on ranking for a set number of phrases irrespective of anything else.

Quick example of what I mean:
You agree to pay an SEO $X per month for ranking for widget, $Y for ranking on gizmo etc. Where is the incentive to drive traffic? Where is the incentive to drive conversions and ROI? If you pay the SEO, as per contract, $X + $Y for two good rankings and make no more sales, the SEO is happy but you aren't. If the SEo helps youachieve a massive increase in traffic but no ranking for the "money words" widget or gizmo, you are extremely happy, they are despondent.

Either way, you have unhappiness, and not a motivated SEO who cares about your business, because there are too many situations in which there is no mutual benefit.

IMHO, a better way to go would be to measure the value of clicks if bought via PPC, and give the SEO a % of that. For example, if the SEO gets you 500 clicks via Organic SEO, and these are for a variety of terms, run this through http://uv.bidtool.overture.com/d/USm/search/tools/bidtool/, see what the total value of Organbic traffic was, and hand over a percentage. If you bench marketed this against existing Organic traffic.

The best way, though, is to track conversions from the source, and give SEOs a percentage of SEO derived sales. No extra sales, no money changes hands. If extra sales are made, everyone wins. Mutual benefit, that is the goal. Aligning both parties financial benefit is the only way to go.

[lots0]

Marcia, you quoted me so far out of context that you have completely lost any correlation or connection to what I originally wrote.

[Gurtie]

(Pay-Per-Performance Advertising™)

If you have a trademark on that then you're going to make better money suing people infringing than you are on running the scheme. :)

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

The best and most economical route long-term is "regular SEO" with the business arrangement handled the "regular" way.

I can't agree with you on that. My best and most profitable clients are the increasing number of CPA-deals I make. Yes, I do take a much greater risk this way but I know what I am doing and to be honest I do pretty well. One of the most important keys to this, however, is to evaluate prospects carefully! I often say no.

[MakeMeTop]

I do have a model that works on a CPC or CPA basis (more commonly a CPC basis).

It works rather like a PPC content match type campaign (without the bidding part), whereby the client can specify primary themes for an organic campaign, add negative keywords for phrases they don't want with positive keyword over-rides for phrases they may want that contain a negative word.

Fo example "widgets" may be a negative keyword if you don't want to pay for searches for generic widgets but "blue" could be a positive keyword - so "blue widgets" would show as a chargeable referral.

However, it is certainly not for everyone - and is not a substitute for on-site SEO - anymore than an Overture or Google PPC campaign is.

As for charging for rankings - I thought that business model was pretty much dead. Surely, it is all about relevant converting traffic?

[trevovski1]

There have been some interesting thoughts here, Thanks!

It seems the general opinion is that cpa is the way to go in which ever form it takes.

Given this, do any of you have reccommendations or even proposals for cpa (per registration) for www.freerub.com. Bearing in mind I already have adwords and overture sown up.

[ACSSEO]

You should be able to find companies who will accept this. The first main problem that you will run into is that the good companies will usually not expect this type of agreement. The companies that will guarantee results or go by a pay for performance plan is what you want to target. But if you try to go with these types of companies the second problem that you will encounter is that their contracts are very deceiving and in many cases you end up paying money without achieving rankings. Just be careful with the company you choose and read the contract carefully. Remember that it is impossible to guarantee rankings because you can never fully control a search engine.