View Full Version : Crazy Idea - Bookmarks Seen by SE's
Relevancy
03-03-2005, 06:08 PM
Could someone tell me if SE's have the ability to see your bookmarks. If so would they use them for organic rankings? Imagine if power of factoring in what peoples favorites sites are in rankings.
Maybe somehow with their toolbars?
Can it be done.. I don't want to really know if they would do it, but more if they could.
St0n3y
03-04-2005, 11:07 AM
This is probably the single biggest reason for Google to build its own browser. If search engines can analyze bookmarks, that is a better indicator of popularity over linking. MSN already has a browser so they would be wise to be working on this already... a big head start if you ask me.
Anything is possible given enough time money and motivation, but in this case the bookmarks do not reside on any public documents but on your computer, and I really doubt that you want to allow spiders into your personal files do you?
randfish
03-07-2005, 08:52 PM
That could be a very sticky area, but you're right, it could certainly be used as a stronger indication of "positive citation".
This is probably the single biggest reason for Google to build its own browser. If search engines can analyze bookmarks, that is a better indicator of popularity over linking. MSN already has a browser so they would be wise to be working on this already... a big head start if you ask me.
google has their own browser too, it's called mozilla/firefox. i think the lead dev of one or the other is employed at google and paid by them to work on it full-time.
-rsk
Nacho
04-05-2005, 02:07 AM
As discussed in the original thread (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?threadid=4978) about the newly released Google filled pending patent, it says:
"According to an implementation consistent with the principles of the invention, user maintained or generated data may be used to generate (or alter) a score associated with a document. For example, search engine 125 may monitor data maintained or generated by a user, such as "bookmarks," "favorites," or other types of data that may provide some indication of documents favored by, or of interest to, the user. Search engine 125 may obtain this data either directly (e.g., via a browser assistant) or indirectly (e.g., via a browser). Search engine 125 may then analyze over time a number of bookmarks/favorites to which a document is associated to determine the importance of the document.
[0115] Search engine 125 may also analyze upward and downward trends to add or remove the document (or more specifically, a path to the document) from the bookmarks/favorites lists, the rate at which the document is added to or removed from the bookmarks/favorites lists, and/or whether the document is added to, deleted from, or accessed through the bookmarks/favorites lists. If a number of users are adding a particular document to their bookmarks/favorites lists or often accessing the document through such lists over time, this may be considered an indication that the document is relatively important. On the other hand, if a number of users are decreasingly accessing a document indicated in their bookmarks/favorites list or are increasingly deleting/replacing the path to such document from their lists, this may be taken as an indication that the document is outdated, unpopular, etc. Search engine 125 may then score the documents accordingly."
Since this seems to be part of our future worries, it would be great if we could use this thread to discuss strategic ways to optimize for this. It could be just as easy as asking your site users to "please bookmark this site" or any creative way you know/think will/might work.
Since this seems to be part of our future worries, it would be great if we could use this thread to discuss strategic ways to optimize for this. It could be just as easy as asking your site users to "please bookmark this site" or any creative way you know/think will/might work.
if this ever comes to pass, all the adware vendors and script kiddies with botnets will be sitting on fresh pots of gold. my grandma's computer invariably has kinky bookmarks every time i visit (no, she's not into that) and that's today when there is little value to them. my prediction is that this feature will be consumed by spam and dead in the water the minute it's out of the gate. do i win the cliche density prize? ;]
-rsk
Webvisitor
04-05-2005, 09:55 AM
I would not like the SEs to know/use my personal bookmarks but I assume they somehow already do. With Furl and Del.icio.us I understand the purpose of saving them is for aggregation purposes and I like that muy mucho.
Mikkel deMib Svendsen
04-05-2005, 10:04 AM
They could be doing it already now - it would be increadibly hard to find out for sure. Through the toolbar they can get access to the bookmark data (well, as a desktop app that YOU installed they can basically get access to anything they like - even key strokes and such. Not that I think they do THAt today :)).
I am not sure how the different engines pack and transmit data back from the toolbars to them. If they compress various kinds of data into small binary packages transmitted along other data, it could be very difficult to find out what they actually include. I am not saying it's impossile, but surely not something the majority of us can figure out (myself included).
It makes sense to engines to grab as much useful data as possible - off- and on-site, and use it to rank and prioritize documents. That includes bookmarks. However, anything can be manipulated (thats what we do all the time as SEOs) and I agree that if the ranking value of bookmarks would be just as hyped up as PageRank has been we will soon se so much bookmark spam that it will eventually kill the function for users
St0n3y
04-05-2005, 11:47 AM
Perhaps a search engine could combat bookmark spam by simply not letting the cat out of the bag that this information is being analyzed. If its possible to keep such a thing a secret it would be ideal for them. Imagine what the SEO landscape would look like if PageRank was kept a secret!
Nacho
04-05-2005, 01:05 PM
Perhaps a search engine could combat bookmark spam by simply not letting the cat out of the bag that this information is being analyzed. If its possible to keep such a thing a secret it would be ideal for them. Imagine what the SEO landscape would look like if PageRank was kept a secret!
I think that's a bit too late on that one.
St0n3y
04-05-2005, 01:11 PM
I don't think its difinitive that Google or any SE is analyzing bookmars... we're just saying that they *could*. Or am I wrong on that?
Mikkel deMib Svendsen
04-05-2005, 01:40 PM
I think that's a bit too late on that one.
Just my words! It's very difficult to "undo" information once it's out :)
DarkMatter
04-05-2005, 02:32 PM
If this does come into play, a "bookmark this page" link will become essential on every page. Personally, I have never bookmarked a page at the prompt of the site itself; I only bookmark pages that I think will be useful resources or that I don't have time to read right away. So I would say this is is pretty good measure of relevancy that is even harder to artificially manipulate than links.
One way to game this system might be if some software installations started adding bookmarks (with permission of course) to the user's browser. Maybe website owners could pay software companies to have their bookmarks installed with software? For instance, the owner of an SEO related website might pay to have their bookmark added when the user installs rank-checking software.
No doubt this would spawn a swarm of malware apps that would start spamming peoples favorites lists....and more of those annoying "Would you like to bookmark this page?" popup windows.
Mikkel deMib Svendsen
04-05-2005, 02:36 PM
If you go to the "darker side" of the web you'll see that bookmarks can be fully atumatically added with scripts on any web page. It's already happening - just not on a broad scale. But if a BookmarkRank hysteria starts we WILL see a dramatic increase in the use of such scripts, I think
St0n3y
04-05-2005, 03:38 PM
Just to get even darker... is there a way to add a bookmark to someone's broser without them ever visiting your (or an affiliated) site? I wouldn't condone such a practice, but want to know of the plausibility of such a tactic.
Just my words!
So you are suggesting that Google or other SE's are already actively analyzing bookmarks and factoring that into their algorithms?
Mikkel deMib Svendsen
04-05-2005, 03:53 PM
So you are suggesting that Google or other SE's are already actively analyzing bookmarks and factoring that into their algorithms?
On a broad scale? No, not at this point. As tests? Yes, definately. But as an SEO I have always tried to predict what way engines are likely to go and and try to get there before they do. So once they get there I will be ready :D
Most off page factors such bookmarks, takes time to "manipulate" on a large scale. Often months or years. So even though the engines might not be doing bookmark analysis right now I am quite sure they will at some point if there is any possible way they can get away with it and if it proves to improve results enough. So, I will continue to recomend that clients do what they can do to get users to bookmark pages, as I've done for some time now. Besides the long term effects it may (or not) have on rankings it will produce more repeat visitors - and that's good in any case :)
Marcia
04-05-2005, 05:10 PM
I think some people have been riding around in black helicopters watching scary movies. :eek:
This is NOT all brand new - they've just spilled the whole can of beans but some of these concepts have been out there in public view for a few years
From the patent issued to Google Sept. 5, 2002:
Any other type of information that can be derived about the nature of the user (e.g., browsing history, bookmarked items, etc.) could also be used to weight the user. This weighted user information 530 may then be used as the refined user count 540. http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=5061
Anyone ever hunt through search engines to mine open stats for keywords and see the entries showing traffic from bookmarks? There's a lot that's right out there in public, nicely logged for all to see. Oh, and how about the data picked up with the Adsense info that's phoned home on sites? If they know our IP number, just maybe they know if we got to the page by a search or from a bookmark. All legal, fair and square because publishers willingly permit the ads to run on their sites.
FYI, keystroke logging is done by spyware - and I believe it's illegal in this country and constitutes a security risk. IMHO a search engine will wade just so far into muddy waters and risk all for a few stats when there's so much wealth of data legitimately available to them.
It does always say "can" to which I would answer "could do..."
JohnW
04-05-2005, 07:03 PM
>a search engine could combat bookmark spam by simply not letting the cat out of the bag that this information is being analyzed.
Maybe they let a fake cat out of the bag this time, to entertain us.
St0n3y
04-05-2005, 07:41 PM
I completely agree with those who optimize for what *can* happen in the future. I think that is the only way to do SEO effectively, to be ready for the next big change.
However, there is a huge difference between suspecting something and knowing something, in regards to how the bulk of the SEO community acts to that knowledge. Link spam wasn't common place until we all KNEW that Google used that as a large part of their algorithm. As for bookmarks, we can all start heading that direction, and some may jump on the spamwagon, but it really won't hit the crux of that until its undeniable that bookmarks are a factor.
Nacho
04-05-2005, 08:47 PM
However, there is a huge difference between suspecting something and knowing something, in regards to how the bulk of the SEO community acts to that knowledge.
Okay, so you need a big enough of a laboratory to experiment with you say. Sure, let's say I'm the CEO of a 5,000 employee company where almost all of them have computers at their desk. I give one instruction to our COO and *flash* we have 5,000 bookmarks. Not bad, ehh!
What did Google do again? Favor corporate America and big power houses one more time. Plain stupid! So, now we all have to run around like a herd of buffaloes with not really careing why, because we just need those dumb bookmarks or else __[fill in the blank]__. A quick reminder of the Filthy Linking Rich (http://www.e-marketing-news.co.uk/Oct04/RichLinking.html) article by Mike Grehan (discussion here (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=2063)).
Good one Google, really smart. :rolleyes: :mad:
St0n3y
04-05-2005, 09:04 PM
Nacho, you make a good point, though I'm not sure what your argument is or how that correlates/responds to my comment. I guess you lost me, but like I said, you make a good point.
Nacho
04-05-2005, 10:31 PM
Sorry, I guess I was reading *toooo much* between the lines.
Marcia
04-05-2005, 10:38 PM
I worked for a very prominent privately owned "Fortune 500" type computer company in a former life, just prior to my entrance into all this online/internet/SEO madness - intranet, firewall, and yes - monitored employee email - the works. There is NO WAY any search engine could have gotten past the geeks to get into anyone's bookmarks.
This is chicken little running around worrying about the sky falling, or better yet, paranoia about a forest fire which more than likely won't ever happen, when the secret sauce is made up of the ingredients in the individual trees. The secret is in the sap. ;)
EVERY research paper and EVERY patent published is worth printing out, reading, underlining and marking and reading again, and then re-reading again and then again. We don't need to be concerned with their BIG picture long term, it's the little things on their minds, those sweet little details, the delectable little morsels interjected in the middle of the mathematical geek-speak, that make up the ingredients of the secret sauce.
Marcia
04-05-2005, 10:57 PM
Someone PM'd asking for clarification, so it needs to be made clearer:
I believe that Google isn't going phishing any time soon.
Every paper, and every patent, and every patent application that's published has little details mentioned. Those little details are what some of us look at, the more intensely the better - those among us who believe SEO is an art - those of us who truly love *search* for the sake of our appreciation of the science and the technology itself.
leadegroot
04-05-2005, 11:20 PM
I think the obvious implementations of this are: either the Google Browser comes out, and the licence allows them access to the data, or Google's next service is: Google Bookmarks - <voice type="announcer">Tired of not being able to take your bookmarks from machine to machine easily? Want your bookmarks available from any internet cafe? Sign up for GClip Today! 1 gig of storage and rising!</voice> A few conditions of use would apply, of course ;)
Of course another way of getting bookmark information might be to use those oh so handy Urchin Stats plus all the Google search stats and consider all those entries without referrers as coming from bookmarks?
Marcia
04-06-2005, 12:18 AM
That is voluntary sharing, and as a matter of fact a personal friend of mine actually did develop an application for a search facility to share bookmarks; but nothing by any means indicates that Google is going phishing and will arbitrarily extract information from people's hard drives that they're both unaware of and unwilling to divulge.
Hey - gimme a break, willya? They're not morons unaware of privacy tenets and legal ramifications. Let's get real and look past the hysteria, and pay attention to the features they may now be or will be looking at for scoring.
If any of you guys want to panic over the possibility of a "forest fire" - ok, well then, the rest of us will have ourselves a jolly good time analyzing the composition of the "trees" and their shades of nuances - the details search scientists look at when devising algorithms. That's where the art lies, n'est pas?
St0n3y
04-06-2005, 12:58 AM
bah-humbug. The Grinch that stole Christmas!
;)
rustybrick
04-06-2005, 08:50 AM
Hmmm... Maybe they won't steal your bookmarks. Maybe it will work more like Furl (http://www.furl.net/), where you store your bookmarks. All the personalization engines (MyJeeves, etc.) have these types of features. I wrote up a note on this thread at my blog and Mike Ho from TechDirt commented (http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001765.html#cm847) on the story. He said;
I would actually appreciate a Google version of "furl" or "del.icio.us" ... It would be really useful.
Pannu
04-07-2005, 04:03 PM
Not to miss the A9 search (lines from a blog article that I wrote sometime back, "If you create an account, you can manage your bookmarks; see history; and access your diary" http://website-usability.blogspot.com/2004/10/new-trend-of-personalised-search.html)[Not Public], and Google Personalized Search
http://labs.google.com/personalized
Slight surprise if Google gives weight to preffered sites logged through Personalized, and also uses the bookmarks and dairy info function, through an understanding with A9 ( Google feeds A9), picking specific comments with due inputs from their semantic experts, picking up words like Good, excellent, informative, amazing etc from the dairy.
Relevancy
04-08-2005, 01:46 AM
They might not look at your bookmarks, but what if they watch what ones are being bookmarked from when or if they start looking. That is not a privacy issue if they don't look at people's bookmarks rather if they look at the act of bookmarking and then log what sites get bookmarked without caring who is doing the act.
Still a spam infestation waiting to happen if so.
Make sense?
Pannu
04-09-2005, 01:30 AM
Furl ratings have excellent potential too untill the spamwagon comes a rollin'.
userfriendly
04-11-2005, 01:52 AM
Since this seems to be part of our future worries, it would be great if we could use this thread to discuss strategic ways to optimize for this. It could be just as easy as asking your site users to "please bookmark this site" or any creative way you know/think will/might work.
How about making compelling, interesting websites that visitors want to come back to :D
seoimage
04-12-2005, 09:41 PM
Hmmm, Bookmark-Ads.com might be available.
:D
jewboy
04-13-2005, 01:37 AM
Do a G search for "Google Patent". Read it. Plain and simple, Google plans on (or may already) evaluate bookmarks for ranking purposes. - Avi Aaron Wilensky
James Liddell
04-19-2005, 02:12 AM
Anything is possible given enough time money and motivation, but in this case the bookmarks do not reside on any public documents but on your computer, and I really doubt that you want to allow spiders into your personal files do you?
:confused: Well, now, uh, I use Yahoo and I've always thought my bookmarks resides in THEIR computers since I always have them no matter the location of the computer I'm using.
OK. That's one question. (It IS a question, you see.)
The other question is that, assuming that Google's tool bar--and I have it along with Yahoo's as well--CAN read bookmarks. I have nearly 1000 bookmarks sometimes nestled six folders deep. Could Google get that deep as well?
Jim Liddell