The word I hate the most is...

[NFFC]

...organic

Everytime I see it used in relation to search it makes me scream [out loud].

Words are very powerful things, I'm not happy with the use of "organic" in the search context, they are just the normal search results.

Everytime its used it devalues the SEO art, its a drip drip attack on our core values.

Orgainic belongs to the vegtables not to SEO's.

[rcjordan]

organic, organic, organic

[David Wallace]

How about "natural" or "editorial" or "original" or even "those thingees on the left side of your screen"? LOL

[cline]

I hate it too. "Editorial results" would be better. Nothing organic about those algorithms.

[NFFC]

>How about "natural" or "editorial" or "original" or even "those thingees on the left side of your screen"? LOL

It's the other stuff that needs names.

[rustybrick]

Think of it this way. Computer algorithms are not considered "organic".

Kind of life like. It is not a matter of not 'liking it' but more a matter of 'what has this world come to'.

Don't you think this is a bit scary. Considering an equation as organic or natural?

[Daria_Goetsch]

To me, organic simply means "naturally" growing results from SEO, it helps separate the idea of an all PPC and Paid Inclusion campaign for clients. Natural results basically means the same thing as organic.

PS: Hi RC...

[dannysullivan]

I've always preferred saying "editorial" versus "paid," because I think it resonates with the idea that there is some parts of the search results that show up because the search engine, in whatever way, thinks they should be provided as editorial content.

I haven't minded the word organic, however. I've seen some people respond to it a bit better than natural. I do like the idea that it suggests there's some traffic you can get through natural or almost effortless work.

I know, I know -- it's not effortless for many SEO professionals. But consider some people who don't live and breathe this. A web designer, for example. It still is the case that they can make relatively simple changes and get rewarded with better listings, such as just making sure those title tags are unique and descriptive.

The word I hate is algorithmic. I feel that's being forced down our throats by the financial community. It gets used as a synonym for crawler-based, when even human-based listings use some type of algorithm to sort the end product.

[rustybrick]

The word I hate is algorithmic. I feel that's being forced down our throats by the financial community. It gets used as a synonym for crawler-based, when even human-based listings use some type of algorithm to sort the end product.

But in reality, that is what it is, "algorithmic". The only reason page A ranks above page B, is because an algorithm decides so.

Humans programmed the algorithm, and it is suppose to be as human-like as possible but in reality all it is, is an algorithm.

Calling it natural or organic (when I think of it) really makes my skin crawl. Makes me think that AI (artificial intelligence) will take over. Ever see the terminator movies? :) Maybe I am way off track here.

[Marcia]

Algorithmic really is closer to being accurate because they're generated via an algorithm. Natural isn't too bad because it's a natural result of algorithmic processing, but organic makes me think of body parts, organs like the liver or spleen - or worse yet, like what they take from you at the doctors office to do laboratory tests on. :eek:

[Nacho]

"organic" . . . . . . . . . sounds like something my wife would pick up at Wholefoods Market :p

(((Cash Register #2 needs a price check for "search results" on isle 7 please)))

:D

[DianeV]

Regular SERPs versus paid SERPs or paid listings

[Marcia]

>>sounds like something my wife would pick up at Wholefoods Market

Right - kind of like beef lips or cheeks from cows raised on organic feed.

[dannysullivan]

But in reality, that is what it is, "algorithmic". The only reason page A ranks above page B, is because an algorithm decides so.

Yes, but then paid listings are algorithmic. After all, at Google, you've got an algorithm looking at clickthrough rate, bid price, terms targeted and so on. Overture is less complicated, but there's some processing happening there, as well.

I guess I hate the use of the word "algorithmic" results because when the financial community uses it, they imply that every search engine must have a crawler. In reality, it doesn't matter how your search engine gets its listings. But to be a major, general purpose search engine, your users will expect you to offer some type of editorial results -- some results you are showing because you think they are the best answer to a query, not because they are paid.

[DianeV]

I think many of us have to contend with misnomers in the industry (industries), particularly as terms seem to be made up as we go.

As we likely all know, SERPs -- "organic" or not -- seem to be misunderstood by the non-industry public in the way that Danny has delineated: simply as some kind of evaluation by the search engines as to what's best, most relevant, etc. That is, as if the search engines were manually selecting the search results.

Goes hand in hand with the industry term for those of us who do market research and analysis, design and build websites, and optimize them ... well, we're "web designers". Just like anyone who buys a Windows machine and finds the pre-installed FrontPage Lite, or whatever it's called. Luckily, we're long past the time when that was much of an issue.

Calling the bundled set of services that some of us provide "holistic web design" just doesn't cut it with the general public; the term means nothing to them. Again, luckily, nowadays more prospective clients have an idea of the kinds of services that are needed beyond slapping together some HTML; it's a pleasure to come across these more savvy folk.

Holistic web design. It's back to Whole Foods Market, or your local alternative health care person.

[sem4u]

I like 'organic' but have never 'optimized' a search engine ;)

[Jeremy_Goodrich]

Optimize a search engine? I've done that ;) Few years ago, cobbled together some perl scripts to make a "slightly less bad" crawler.

Learned why I prefer optimizing websites instead of those organic listings or the algorithmic section of the SERP - building the complicated series of components that make up a search engine is tough.

Anyway, "organic" is on the peeve list now, eh? Personally, I've always found that 'search results' is the best term, as eventually consumers *must* be able to tell which results are the search results however the engine gets at them, and which is the advertisement section that folks know are paid listings.

In magazines, when was the last time in the US that a print rag showed an ad without some kind of mark? Sure, it may be subtle, but it's there.

I'll just keep calling them the search results myself, and then provide explanation when their eyes glaze over. At some point, if they've not heard how search engines work before, a person's eyes will always glaze over after hearing an explanation of crawling, indexing, etc.

[Marcia]

The way the public would understand it is by calling them regular search results and paid results.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

I do not waste too much of my time hating anything - especially not very little important things such as a word: "Organic" :)

No matter what term we chose to use it will require some additional explanation before normal (not search geeks) understand it.

For several years, back in the late 90's when I was managing a large search engine in Scandinavia, I tried very hard to tech people just the basic difference between directory results and crawler based results. Only so few understood it that I gave up.

I think "Organic" is a good headline for what some might call algoritmic in some situarions and editorial in others. Organic, is to me, a word that pretty well descripe the non-commercial nature of listings we are talking about. Listings that got their rankings based on quality and relevancy rather than money.

I have gone through many terms in my time in this business. Personally I feel that it has become much easier to communicate the issues with potential clients and the public in general after I started using Organic as a term.

[NFFC]

> especially not very little important things such as a word: "Organic"

I hate quoting myself but..."Words are very powerful things".

I know we are in the padded room but the subject has a very serious undertone. In effect I am asking who do we allow to define the space that webmaster/SEO's operate in?

Is it the latest SEM trade club, large scale SEM companies, marketing agencies and maybe even forum owners?

I'm saying no to that.

Imho the power to shape our trade lies with the independent webmaster/SEO, to us what you would refer to as "organic" results are just results, they don't need a special name. Its_the_other_stuff_that_needs_a_name.

If people are struggling to explain concepts to clients let them deal with it in whatever way they see fit, use whatever words you want as far as I'm concerned. But lets not see that need move over into the "real" world and corrupt the facts.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

> In effect I am asking who do we allow to define the space that webmaster/SEO's operate in?

We do not have to allow the market any such thing - none of us have the power to tell major players in the field (or anybody, for that sake) what words to use and promote.

I do certainly not agree that the power to change this business lies with the idependant webmaster/SEO. Are you saying that Danny, Brett Tabke, Frederick Machini, Kevin Lee - Marketleap, PositionTech, Did-it.com, iProspect and such should just shut up, back up and leave it all to the small webmasters? If so, I do not think that is a very realistic dream :)

In fact, I think the above mentioned people (and many more) have done a great work to shape this business and define some of the vocabulary that is now widely used in public and trade.

[NFFC]

>Are you saying that Danny, Brett Tabke, Frederick Machini, Kevin Lee - Marketleap, PositionTech, Did-it.com, iProspect and such should just shut up, back up and leave it all to the small webmasters?

Exactly. With one, maybe two, exceptions.

{BTW you dropped multiple company/people that "resolve" to the same entity. You dropped your own in there too, poor form imho}

>If so, I do not think that is a very realistic dream

Dreams aren't supposed to be realistic.

[Marcia]

>space

<== proletarian woman shuts windows, lets out a blood-curdling scream

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

NFFC, please do not make untrue statement about my person. I do not own any of the above mentioned companies or people - and even if I did it would not matter anything for the case of the subject.

[NFFC]

>NFFC, please do not make untrue statement about my person.

I apologise if you feel in anyway that I misrepresented you.

Must be two Mikkel 's on the scene, your dopleganger even has a press release http://www.marketleap.com/news/pr/mikkel_081603.htm

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

It is a very comon strategy for people loosing an argument to start attacking the people instead of the case. NFFC, I am not going to fall for that. Stick to the topic if you want a discussion. I am not going to respond to stupid attacks on my person or untrue and irrelevant statements about what I own or not.

[Marcia]

Moving right along, just to recap and see if I'm following correctly, this started out with individuals stating their likes, dislikes and preferences for usage of different words. Not as light a matter as it appeared at first

...the subject has a very serious undertone. In effect I am asking who do we allow to define the space that webmaster/SEO's operate in?

Is it the latest SEM trade club, large scale SEM companies, marketing agencies and maybe even forum owners?

And then, sqaubbling aside and disregarding the use of the word "space" - the above really being the core issue as I'm understanding it so far, this also enters into it

multiple company/people that "resolve" to the same entity

That bothers me intensely, simply because I've always been a "community" type person and involved with volunteer endeavors from late childhood on, which naturally followed me onto the internet. I strongly believe in the concept of online communities and have been involved in service in one capacity or another in such communities from a couple of months after my modem first connected up onward. Until last week, when I made an intelligent quality decision to return to the ranks of civilian life.

Here's why I bring that up; it is relevant, because this whole issue does involve "community" and the growth, health and preservation of such. I can't stress strongly enough that there is not just *one* industry or one "space." Even if we were to concede that there's one industry in a broad, general sense of the word, we'd have to define it as consisting of a bourgeousie and a proletariat. Because that is the truth.

The names/companies mentioned may well be part of that that first group and resolve to that one entity referred to, but that doesn't mean it holds true for everyone. There are those who don't know who all those people and companies are and furthermore don't give a hoot and a holler if they ever do.

If there's a community that's "for" and part of that particular group and/or entity, or any other declared entity, and/or to a significant extent representative of their philosophies and purposes, then it should be clearly stated and possibly be on the website of that entity.

However, if there is a community that is to be open, welcoming and comfortable for *everyone* - bourgeoisie and proletariat alike - the latter referring to the independent webmaster/seo who chooses to remain such, then the differences between and among the different groups and individuals need to be recognized and seriously considered for the sake of establishing unity of purpose and avoidance of unhealthy divisions. I've seen what those can do, both offline and online.

We can all of us most certainly be part of a community together, but there are differences in perspectives and those need to be recognized and respected - for everyone's benefit long term, since the ones early on are the forerunners and pretty much forge the mold and nurture the environment for what will follow as time goes on.

[bwelford]

Marcia, I think you've hit an important nail right on the head.

It struck me that this is similar to a number of other situations where you have a choice of running a number of parallel horses or putting all your energy into only one. Should you have a number of websites or have everything within one website?

I'm strongly of the 'Focus, focus, focus' school of thought. I believe you'll have more fun and be more successful, if you decide what you can do better than anyone else in the world and then pour all your passion and energy into that.

That doesn't need to be a small goal. Just see how well Walmart or IKEA have done. Conglomerates often have much more difficult times.

[littleman]

How about just calling it 'real SEO'?

[Chris_D]

I just call the links on the left side 'Search results' and the links on the right side 'advertisements'.

;)

[Marcia]

>>I just call the links on the left side 'Search results' and the links on the right side 'advertisements'.

I kind of like "the payfers" and "the freebies." Has a nice ring to it.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

Funny, I just noticed that a search in Google with the Danish key phrase for "organic optimization" produce (at least) 3 pages of pure cloaked spam going to the same website :eek:

[Marcia]

>>"organic optimization"

Doesn't that just go to show what the right kind of fertilizer can accomplish!

[cjtripnewton]

I haven't seen it used in print yet, but I like the term "native results" to describe what others are calling "organic results." The rest I refer to as "paid advertising." Managing a PPC campaign I refer to as "ad buying." For that grey area in the middle, where you see pay-for-inclusion or pay-per-click-for-inclusion results, I still refer to it as a modified or hybrid version of ad buying, but one which requires a special skill set.

Think "native species" and "invasive species." ;)

[Marcia]

>>"invasive species."

cj, that could be confusing, since it's more than likely how search engines view SEOs. :D

[cjtripnewton]

Yeah, I think it's kind of funny - a bit of a double entendre. Still, when you think about it, all the major search engines started out working their tails off trying to populate their databases with listings - the native listings. Once they gained enough traction, they began to fill their results with money-making listings - the invasive listings.

I don't know. I just like it. I definitely don't like the word "organic" in this context. For me, silicon and organic have nothing to do with each other. It's all about carbon.

[Joseph Morin]

I find that when I'm dealing with a CFO type at a company, if I refer the the results as 'Unpaid Results' and 'Paid Results' then there is little question left and it pretty much answers itself. (with Paid Inclusion falling into the 'Paid results' catagory of course).

When I'm dealing with a CTO or technologists, I refer to the results as 'Algorithmic' or 'Pay per click'.

If I'm speaking with a colleague I say 'Serps' or 'PPC'.

I guess it depends on whom I'm dealing with.

[DaveAtIFG]

Free listings vs Paid listings has always been explanation enough for me, KISS! But I'm not known for my sophistication... Organic listings? Wuzzat? :confused:

[rcjordan]

Hey Dave! Welcome to SEW.

[DaveAtIFG]

Thanks rc, but blame Marcia! She sent me a link to this thread. With all the familiar names, "It's like deja vu all over again!"

Feels pretty good too! :)

[rcjordan]

>deja vu

No "clank of machinery" like the old days, if you get my meaning. But that never goes public any more anyway.

[DaveAtIFG]

"clank of machinery" like the old days, if you get my meaning.

I think I do and I miss the clanking too.

When I was a kid I swore I'd never "long for the old days" 'cause I got so tired of hearing that from others... But every day it gets a little tougher to keep that resolution.

Remember when we could freely discuss __________ (insert your favorite here)? Those were the days!
;)

[littleman]

Hi Dave, it's been a while. Well, we let all that happen didn't we? I guess that happens when you watch a friend get hooked on stardust.

[bethabernathy]

I like Organic. I think it is kindof cool, but I live in Tahoe, California, where :cool: is :D

[DaveAtIFG]

when you watch a friend get hooked on stardust.

Hey LM! You suddenly disappeared! It's great to see you're still around, even "all scarred up and jaded." :) I inquired about you several times but nobody I talked to had heard much of anything.

It was pretty obvious to me from the git-go that our friend was/is pretty ambitious, there is nothing wrong with that. His agenda and mine still complement each other so...

Is a class reunion OK in this thread Mikkel? I fear we're hijacking it... (I'm pleased to see you're still around too sir! ) :)

[Marcia]

>>nobody I talked to had heard much of anything.

Nah, you just missed talking to the right people.

littleman
stardust

Being in Southern Calif., Los Angeles to be specific, the imagery of that word kind of conjures up visions of the LA Music Center or Santa Monica Civic Auditorium and the Grammy or Academy Award presentations that take place annually. It makes me think about their acceptance speeches when they get their Grammies or Oscars, and what it is that most of them say.

NFFC:
I hate quoting myself but..."Words are very powerful things".

Words are very powerful things.

NFFC:
I know we are in the padded room but the subject has a very serious undertone.

The whole subject here has very serious undertones, and words are very powerful and important things.

[Marcia]

I've gotten it from a reliable source that this is what they're called:

Main Results and Paid Results (http://searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/article.php/2167981)

So I guess it's settled. :D

[DaveAtIFG]

Now that Marcia has settled the burning terminology question, I feel compelled to point out that this statement simply lacks credibility:
>
I hate quoting myself but..."Words ;)

[JamesR]

>It's like deja vu all over again!

I hope not. :p

Organic -> implies a beneficent neutrality upon the source itself. SEs = mother earth?

[DrCool]

Is there really a need to define anything? Nearly anybody I talk to who isn't a webmaster (yes, I have a life apart from this) has no idea about regular search listings, paid listings, PFI, advertisements, etc. They see something on a page and click on it and that is good enough for them.

Maybe that could become a technical term... "things on a page that people click on".... I like the way that rolls off the tongue.

[Marcia]

Remember when we could freely discuss __________ (insert your favorite here)? Those were the days!
;)

Like chicken heads (http://community-2.webtv.net/gcorlew1/Welcometothe/page2.html)? :D

[DaveAtIFG]

Do I sense a new thread starting? "The word I hate the most is CHICKENHEADS!"

So Miss Marcia, didja also bookmark the original discussion? I'm convinced a review would be absolutely essential to this new thread.

Was that the one and only JamesR I saw peeking around the doorframe a few posts ago? Kick your shoes off and make yourself right at home James! :)

[Nick W]

I guess that happens when you watch a friend get hooked on stardust.

Funny but great way to put it ;-)

I wasnt around at SEF in the 'early days' but im reliably informed from those that were that we're 'going through the cycle' -> this forum being the latest step in that cycle.

>>organic
bah humbug, who cares? - just another of the SE's way of trying to out-position SEO services.....

(and hi to all the faces in here, even you Dave... LoL!)

Nick

[DaveAtIFG]

this forum being the latest step in that cycle

Nick! Nicky! Nicky-O! The Nickster! :)

>that cycle
There's another "great way to put it." Well said for a man with a funny accent! ;)

[JamesR]

Thank you Dave, it is I.

Shoes are off, that smell is coming from rc, not me ;)

[DaveAtIFG]

I may have been a little hasty, perhaps TOO cordial. Stick around James, but would you mind putting your shoes back on?

Sorry! But you SEEM to have emptied the room... :o