Help-Stop-Smoking Site Rankings Drop Out Of Google - Non-Profit site - Please Help!

[bobmutch]

Both Blair and I are ex smokers. Blair runs a site www.quitsmokingsupport.com (http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/) and has a passion to help people quite smoking. As of Nov 28th his home page dropped from a PR6 to a PR4. His site dropped out of the Google index for words that he has been on the first page for 7 years. Key phrases like "quite smoking", "quitting smoking", and "stop smoking".

Blair has contacted Google a number of times and finally got an answer that he has not received a ban.

The site is in DMOZ and has a 22/40 in Google Directory. In the Google directory listing is listed between a PR5 and PR6 site dir.google.com/Top/Health/Support_Groups/Smoking_Cessation/ (http://dir.google.com/Top/Health/Support_Groups/Smoking_Cessation/) . It is only the home page that has dropped to a PR4. The other pages are PR5's and PR6's.

The site is still ranking well in Yahoo and is #3 for the 3 above key phrases. The traffic has dropped by 30%.

I have just taken on working on Blairs site for no change as I am impress with his passion for help people get support for their habit.

Could you all take a look at this site and see if there are any bad SEO pratices on this site. Also is it possible for some one that has GoogleGuy 's ear to get him to take a peek at this site.

[DaveN]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=www.quitsmokingsupport.com

google thinks that the homepage is quitsmokingsupport.com without the www and that does not resolve.

header check

Headers for :

Error! No headers found for quitsmokingsupport.com

Headers for :

www.quitsmokingsupport.com (207.107.128.20): HTTP/1.1 200 OK Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0 X-Powered-By: ASP.NET Content-Location: http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/index.htm


not the answer but a piece of the jigsaw

DaveN

[DaveN]

also this

Headers for http://whozontop.com/ICDirect/click.asp?wsID=373&hitzone=HZ0026

(204.225.48.42):

HTTP/1.1 302 Object moved

[bobmutch]

DaveN: Yes I am in the process of fixing the quitsmokingsupport.com link being dead. I will be 301'ing this into the www

I have seen a list of the tools you use to check redirects etc. but can't remember what thread that was in. What tool are you getting the 302 error with.

[Marcia]

I've seen that one before, Dave.

Bob, there is definitely something else going on, but just as an additional thought, taking a quick look it says there are several hundred of pages but when I did a search for site: it said 71 pages and most were URL only, some supplemental. After clicking the "more results" option it looks a bit different though, it looks like when I've seen pages slipping out.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:quitsmokingsupport.com&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&start=30&sa=N&filter=0

Granted it's not the major thing but is worth mentioning, so many of those have the identical meta description which is all that's showing. After or while the other things are tended to you might want to work with him and just put a unique meta description into each page. It's better not to have anything all identical like that.

[bobmutch]

Marcia: Ok thanks for pointing that out. I will put that on the list of things to do : ) I just picked this site up today so I am sure it needs lots of help.

[DaveN]

Bob The tools we use are all inhouse i'm trying to port as many has possible onto open servers, i will put the 302 and headerchecker on the list and pm you when its done..

DaveN

[bobmutch]

DaveN: Thanks. Until then what public tool is going to show me this error. The redirect tool that I use doesn't show any problems. Also the error you came up with "HTTP/1.1 302 Object moved", what does this indicate to you. Do all of whozontop.com links give you the same error or just the one to www.quitsmokingsupport.com (http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/) ?

[JohnW]

Maybe it's just a data center thing, but I'm showing your index page PR0. I'm seeing PR=grey on your site map and several links pages. I can't find the grey pages in the index at all. You might want to look at some of the cross-linking and stuff like that external to the site...

[ThouShaltSeo]

Looks like some of the sites linked are fishy....not cached, with 4 trillion dashes etc. Maybe the link back to this site, who knows.


Maybe it's just a data center thing, but I'm showing your index page PR0. I'm seeing PR=grey on your site map and several links pages. I can't find the grey pages in the index at all. You might want to look at some of the cross-linking and stuff like that external to the site...

[bobmutch]

JohnW: Ya the website map is PR5 and the home page PR4 so no problems there.

[AussieWebmaster]

You should also change the link back to the home page to www.quitsmoking.com right now it is www.quitsmokingsupport.com/index.html so there is a leak there also. Redirect that to the domain name while you are at it.
I would also change the title tag to separate the term at the front and also in the description start with quit smaoking... Google is a left to right reader.

[bobmutch]

AussieWebmaster: Yep, just picked the site up today. Already told him to move the domain name to the back of the title on all pages and to give different meta descriptions for each page. I am not to worried on having the keyword at the front of the meta description. The site will get a copy of recriprocalmanager.com shortly and a heap of inbound links.

This of course doesn't help with the problem. The site dropped from a PR6 on the home page to a PR4 in between toolbar updates and the pages that were on first page SERP dropped out of the index.

To me it looks like a penalty.

[Dave Hawley]

Bob, did Google say anything else? Or more to the point, did they ask Google the right questions?

I get the impressio that have engaged in something Google do not like (cross-link?). I cannot find them at all searching for their on page text.

[DaveN]

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22At+least+43+elements+in+tobacco+smoke+ have+been+shown+to+cause+cancer

[Dave Hawley]

As is Bob, it's the Homepage I was referring to. I tried 4 exact phrases and could not find it. Normally, this would locate any page that's in Google.

[Dave Hawley]

Ok, lucky #5 found it
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=%22Providing+Excellent+Quit+Smoking+Support...%2 2&btnG=Search

Could these links be a possible cause?
www.kniff.de/cgi-bin/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.cgi/010110A/http/www.quitsmokingsupport.com/ -

[DaveN]

www kniff de : is using a standard HTTP Proxy script, which allows you to surfer the internet VIA a proxy... most hacker boards or private boards tend to link Via a http proxy , that way you know it's safe to click on the lnk without transmitting you IP and geolocation ;)

By guess is that some hacker or spammer is trying to quit smoking lol

Unless Dave Hawley knows something different about that site, I could only find the standard Mods installed on it ???

DaveN

[AussieWebmaster]

The interesting thing about kniff is that it lists higher than the actual site...

[DaveN]

not has high has the webdesign company that did the site thou... ;)

DaveN

[GoogleGuy]

Interesting, I didn't realize that SEW was okay with people posting specifics. bobmutch, you're saying that quitsmokingsupport.com is a non-profit site? Here's what I see when I look. Last time I checked, I saw dozens of links to quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com. Oh look, from quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com, I'm able to take care of my other health needs, from friendly vendors such as pheromones-perfume-cologne-attract-woman-man-human-androsterone.com,
attract-woman-man-androsterone-human-pheromone-perfume-cologne.com,
better-orgasms-sexual-dysfunction-libido-enhancement-enhancer.com, and of course diet-pills-natural-fast-weight-loss-supplements-fat-product.com.
That's quite a bit of help. In fact, if I view source, I'm also able to find many other helpful products:
<a class="giffard" href="quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com_sitemap.html">quit smoking quitting smoking stop smoking Site Map</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.smokeshop.com">Online Herbal Smoke Store & Smoking Accessories</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.hair-removal-product-hair-remover.com/">Ultra Hair Away Hair Removal Product Hair Removal Spray</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.better-orgasms-sexual-dysfunction-libido-enhancement-enhancer.com/">Better Orgasm Female Libido & Sex Drive Enhancer</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com/">Stop Smoking Product</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.help-quit-smoking-stop-smoking-quitting-aids.com/">Smoke Away Stop Smoking & Quit Smoking Help Aids</a>

<a class="giffard" href="http://www.better-orgasms-sexual-dysfunction-libido-enhancement-enhancer.com/">Better Orgasm Female Increase Libido</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.blacklightpostersandpictures.com/">Black Light Posters and Pictures</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.affiliate-program-search-engine.com">Webmasters click here for affiliate program</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.black-light-posters-pictures-bulbs.com/">Black Light Posters Pictures and Party Lighting Superstore</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.bob-barefoots-coral-calcium-supreme.com/">Bob Barefoots Coral Calcium Supreme Plus Supplement</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.as-seen-on-tv-products-herbal-enhancement.com/">As Seen on tv Products Store</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.attract-woman-man-androsterone-human-pheromone-perfume-cologne.com/">Euphoria Human Pheromones Perfume and Cologne Products</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.human-pheromones-cologne-perfume.com">Human Pheromones Cologne And Perfume Online</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.diet-pills-natural-fast-weight-loss-supplements-fat-product.com/">Natural Diet Pills & Weight Loss Supplements</a>

<a class="giffard" href="http://www.h-and-h-enterprises.com/">Pepper Spray Mace & Self Defense Products</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.pepperspraymace.com/">Pepper Spray Mace & Stun Gun Superstore</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.pepper-spray-mace-stun-gun.com/">Pepper Spray Mace Stun Gun</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.virility-patch.com">http://www.virility-patch.com</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-smoke.ws">http://www.herbal-smoke.ws</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.pheromones-perfume-cologne-attract-woman-man-human-androsterone.com">human pheromones</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.globalifecash.com">Webmasters Affiliate Program - GlobaLife Cash</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.natural-herbals.com">Diet Fat Loss Pills</a>

<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-smoke-shop.com">http://www.herbal-smoke-shop.com</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-smoke-shack.net">exotic herbal smokes</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.quit-smoking-pill.com">stop smoking pill</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-cigs.net">herbal cigarette</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.weight-loss-patch-diet-patch.com">diet patch</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-smoke-shack.com">exotic smoking blends</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-breast-enhancement-pill.com">Bust Enhancement</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.vp-rx-penis-enhancement-pill.com">penis pill</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbal-weight-loss-program.com">diet patch</a>

<a class="giffard" href="friends.html">Friends and Additional Links</a>
<a class="giffard" href="http://www.herbalsmokeshack.com">marijuana alternative</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_product_i.html">stop smoking product</a>
<a class="giffard" href="smoke_away_m.html">smoke away</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_aid_i.html">stop smoking aid</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_aids_i.html">stop smoking aids</a>
<a class="giffard" href="quit_smoking_aids_i.html">quit smoking aids</a>
<a class="giffard" href="quit_smoking_product_i.html">quit smoking product</a>
<a class="giffard" href="smoke_away_i.html">smoke away</a>

<a class="giffard" href="quitting_smoking_i.html">quitting smoking</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_i.html">stop smoking</a>
<a class="giffard" href="quit_smoking_i.html">quit smoking</a>
<a class="giffard" href="stop_smoking_program_i.html">stop smoking program</a>
<a class="giffard" href="quit_smoking_program_i.html">quit smoking program</a>

Hmm, that's strange. class=giffard? What does that mean? I guess I'd better check out their CSS file at http://www.quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com/linktables.css in order to see what "giffard" means. Oh, here it is:
.giffard means
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 1px;
color: #FCFCFC;
background-color: #FFFFFF;
visibility: hidden;

Wait a second. visibility hidden? font-size is set to 1 pixel? But wouldn't that mean that all those great resource links are hidden to users? Hmm.

Weird. Last time I noticed, there were also lots of links to help-quit-smoking-stop-smoking-quitting-aids.com from pages like http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/refer.htm . Hmm. Looks like the same company doing this?

bobmutch, here's what I'd tell Blair: if you want to run a non-profit, don't link to sites that have hidden text via CSS, especially not on the *footer of practically every page on the site*. Who you link to can affect your ranking. This site seemed to have a lot of links to a lot of very aggressive sites for a non-profit. I'd recommend that he remove all links to these aggressive sites, and then send an email to us requesting reinclusion.

Hope that helps,
GoogleGuy

[David Wallace]

Well there you have it! Thanks, GoogleGuy! Excellent find!

<applauding>

[bobmutch]

GoogleGuy LOL, you are the greatest! I didn't take the time to go as far as you did but you have made me look silly. Thank you very much for your kind help. This is a good lesson in how linking to bad neighbourhood can get you a penalty.

Also it answers another question I had and that is your can get a penalty that will drop the PR of one page a couple of units and not all the way to PR0. The answer is yes!

[pageoneresults]

This is a good lesson in how linking to bad neighbourhood can get you a penalty.
This is actually a good lesson in how today's search engine marketeer needs to be savvy in many areas. ;)

That is absolutey amazing stuff above. There goes one network. Hmmm, I do seem to recall seeing that page naming structure somewhere before. friends.html, eek!

[bobmutch]

pageoneresults: Ya I would say so eh. I have checked out the domains and it would seem that Blair has been above board with me and he only owns 2 of the domains as far as I can see and he declares this so on his site.

Just a case of linking to a bad neighbourhood. I guess some one needs to come up with a program that will scan the pages of the site you have a link to and see if they have spammy content. The site that GG dissected has that same spam in almost all pages on the site.

[pageoneresults]

Ya I would say so eh. I have checked out the domains it would see them Blair has been above board with me and he only owns 2 of the domains as far as I can see and he declares this so on his site.
Hmmm, I've been looking at the above network for the past 30 minutes. I'd say Blair maybe hired the wrong firm to do SEO/SEM services for his site in the past. There are some telltale signs (footprints) all over that network that lead back to one company inparticular. GoogleGuy knows who it is or he would not have posted all that stuff above.

Just go to any of those offsite links above and add /friends.html to the URI.

[orion]

Great finding, GoogleGuy team. It appears more than one got gamed and busted.


Interesting, I didn't realize that SEW was okay with people posting specifics.

Interesting, indeed.

Orion

[GoogleGuy]

Happy to help, bobmutch. I'm of two minds on mentioning specifics. I can respect a policy of never naming specifics--there's many, many good reasons why you don't want members dropping urls all the time. On the other hand, an occasional concrete example can bring home the sort of issues that a site owner or webmaster is going to face (e.g. linking to bad neighborhoods).

[bobmutch]

GoogleGuy: I agree completely! Blair is very busy cleaning house and I have told him that everything that is questionable needs to go. Now I am just wondering your opinion would of this been a hand ban or was it picked up by one of Googles filters and done automatically?

I would also like to know your feeling on quality reciprocal links that enhance the visitors of both sites (closely related to the theme of the both sites). Are we likely to see them being devalued at some point? Personally I am telling my clients more and more to submit their sites to the quality directories.

[mcanerin]

Under the circumstances I think the specifics mentioned here are clear, helpful and useful.

I think this falls under the "useful and appropriate" exception in our no naming sites rule, and I think personally it's a great example of why the Mods and Admins didn't want to outright ban links and specifics.

Keep in mind that the most important thing to get from this is the process of discovery and analysis rather than the specific sites involved - I'm pretty sure everyone involved knows this, but I want to make sure any of you lurkers realize it too.

Excellent discussion.

Ian

[kctipton]

Time to change the thread title to remove "non-profit site". Nonprofit, indeed! :eek:

[bobmutch]

kctipton: Well this happens quite often not only on websites but in life generally. There is one (or in this care several) bad apples in the box and they ruin it for others. Blair is just another innocent webmaster that has a pet project that means alot to him. Yes to pay for his hosting he was renting out space to other companies that were out there to making buck. But he had no idea that linking to bad neighbourhood.

The nice thing is that it getting straightened out, then he and email and ask for reinclusion and life will go on.

[Dave Hawley]

Blair is just another innocent webmaster... Don't they all shout this once caught? I once tried telling a traffic cop I never saw the speed limit sign and so I'm innocent. He laughed while writing the ticket ;) He also told me as a driver on the road, it is my resposibility to know the limits.

[AussieWebmaster]

Don't they all shout this once caught? I once tried telling a traffic cop I never saw the speed limit sign and so I'm innocent. He laughed while writing the ticket ;) He also told me as a driver on the road, it is my resposibility to know the limits.

But sometime you actually miss the sign or briefly pass the speed limit and rail it in only to be in the wrong place at the wrong time....

[Nick W]

Blair is just another innocent webmaster

Words fail me...

[Marcia]

>>Words fail me...

Me too, Nick. What can we say? Yet another innocent victim of the oligarchy, stripped of PR and relegated to the bottom rung in the Google Directory.

[glengara]

Wonder if they'd have got away with it had those links had been visible?

Hard to read which impressed GG less, the actual links, or the fact they were hidden.

[Chris_D]

Good one GG!

Hard to read which impressed GG less, the actual links, or the fact they were hidden.

I think it was the verbosity of the domain names which really sparked GG's interest

:)

A good example of why it pays to read the 'rules' isn't it:

Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's ranking or PageRank. In particular, avoid links to web spammers or "bad neighborhoods" on the web as your own ranking may be affected adversely by those links.

http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html

Note it says 'links to' and nothing about the 'link from'.....

[robwatts]

In particular, avoid links to web spammers or "bad neighborhoods" on the web as your own ranking may be affected adversely by those linksIsn't there a bit of a problem with this don't-link-to-web-spammers-else-we-will-penalise-you logic?

What if for example, you run a web directory, or have a large resources section, or a blog, or a forum etc etc. Think about it, what if you linked to something donkeys years ago, which at the time was perfectly fine. Subsequently, unbeknown to you along came Johhny Spammeister and bought up this domain, and gleefully spammed to kingdom come.

How are you meant to police this? Run a hand review of all the sites you link to?Not really feasible, is it...or am I missing something? Is the safe suggestion to run everything through robots.txt blocked script redirect, only to be captured for something else like the 'pagerank hoarding penalty' :confused:

Or would this be mollified by the buy adwords filter? :D

[powerofeyes]

What if for example, you run a web directory, or have a large resources section, or a blog, or a forum etc etc. Think about it, what if you linked to something donkeys years ago, which at the time was perfectly fine. Subsequently, unbeknown to you along came Johhny Spammeister and bought up this domain, and gleefully spammed to kingdom come.

I think this has been discussed long back Rob, Google's natural spam filter algorithm wont penalize or degrade a directory site based on just one or 2 bad outbound links, It seems they have this sort of system implemented properly, If one or two outbound links per page are bad then it seems to be ignored, but if there is extensive links from a page to bad neighbourhoods then that page is penalized by automated algorithm,

if they go ahead and spam every page that links to bad neighbourhood then most of the Dmoz directory pages would be penalized since so many sites does bad things after being listed in dmoz,

This particular site mentioned above does link to bad sites extensively and it does trigger the google spam filter algo for this site,

GoogleGuy seem to be really patient in digging out these pages and from what I can see it is a natural penalty to this site,

[creativecraig]

But sometime you actually miss the sign or briefly pass the speed limit and rail it in only to be in the wrong place at the wrong time....

But there are other times when some people see the speed limit and say to hell with it, lets see what I can get away with!

Moral of the story: don't air your dirty laundry in public, keep it tucked away where no one can see it!

[Dave Hawley]

But sometime you actually miss the sign or briefly pass the speed limit and rail it in only to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.......and you still get the fine and you are still resposible for your own actions and there is no use screaming "I'm innocent" :)

[ThouShaltSeo]

...and you still get the fine and you are still resposible for your own actions and there is no use screaming "I'm innocent" :)


as someone who just paid over $400 for a speeding ticket (instead of of four points in the license) I agree. Clean up your act and try again...

[Marcia]

If I recall correctly, and I did look right away, there was already a problem showing up before this thread even started - which is why it started in the first place.

At the very beginning, it was already evident that pages had been slipping out of the index and going URL only - when this was first posted, not after it was looked at. Sure, the covers were totally blown as to the reasons, but the process had already been in motion.

That should tell us something, shouldn't it?

[Dave Hawley]

Sorry, you've lost me :confused:

[qcguide]

pheromones-perfume-cologne-attract-woman-man-human-androsterone.com
LOL! I almost laughed milk out my nose when I read your post, GoogleGuy. I enjoyed your post more than the hot out of the oven chocolate chip cookies I was having with the glass of milk!

- Mike T.

[Dave Hawley]

I thought GG was joking about those URL's....then I dropped one into the address bar!

[glengara]

So, no more than 5 hyphens per Url?

[bobmutch]

glengara: I think it was the fact that the text font was at 1px and the text hidden. But it would be far to say that better-orgasms-sexual-dysfunction-libido-enhancement-enhancer.com would be considered a bad neighbourhood. And the word is don't link to bad neighbourhoods.

[ThouShaltSeo]

essentially Google can read css and don't link to bad hoods from more than x number of pages. Even CNN can link once to let's say SearchKing. Google is not going to ban them or anyone for a one or two links.

I hope whoever started this "non-profit" site doesn't start smoking again after GG comments and ban;)


glengara: I think it was the fact that the text font was at 1px and the text hidden. But it would be far to say that www.better-orgasms-sexual-dysfunction-libido-enhancement-enhancer.com[/url] would be considered a bad neighbourhood. And the word is don't link to bad neighbourhoods.

[bobmutch]

ThouShaltSeo: Blair was tempted to start again when he found out he was under penalty. But keep in mind GG didn't put him under penalty, GG showed him why he was under penalty and told him what to do to fix his site and get the penalty lifed. In this case GG was helping the quitsmokingsupport.com site.

[ThouShaltSeo]

I don't know who Blair is (maybe you?)--no way to know for sure--but linking to all those scam sites (IMO) and saying it's non-profit sounds a bit fishy. I mean it's borderline insulting our intelligence and people don't like that.

that's all I have and good luck


ThouShaltSeo: Blair was tempted to start again when he found out he was under penalty. But keep in mind GG didn't put him under penalty, GG showed him why he was under penalty and told him what to do to fix his site and get the penalty lifed. In this case GG was helping the quitsmokingsupport.com site.

[bobmutch]

ThouShaltSeo: A quick visit to the site in question (the one that was under a penalty) will show you who Blair is (also reading the thread will tell you also). He is the stated owner of the domain QUITSMOKINGSUPPORT.COM in the whois record and stated owner of the site that is hosted on that domain.

I think Blair made an honest mistake in linking to all those spammy sites. His site other than that is quite clean. Well that is his verbal declaration anyway.

And a little update on the Non-Profit. I shouldn't have put that in the title as he is not legally Non-Profit but it is his verbal declaration that he runs the site not to make money but to help people.

[Mel]

Good to see that the sites PR now appears to have been restored, what about his rankings, are they ranking well again?

[jcoronella]

I have a "friend" who needs some "help" too. Maybe GG can help him out too as he can't seem to keep his site from ranking above mine.

[Anthony Parsons]

I think I'm going to pee myself for laughing so hard. Googleguy, you rock mate. Nice drop Bob, guess it didn't have the desired affect for your "mate" after all.

ROFLSDMGPMA "Roll On Floor Laughing So Damn Much Gonna Pee Myself Again"

[bobmutch]

Anthony Parsons: No it worked very well. If you will read the thread you will see that he had a penalty already and the people that have the spammy in there pages were the people he was linking to. So he found out the problem, he has removed the links from this pages to site that GG exposed, his PR is back and he is just watching to see what happens to the Rankings.

So it worked out very well. But ya I thought it was cute the way GG handled it also.

[Mel]

It will be interesting to see if the rankings return in the same way that I have seen in the past, First the PR is returned, then the page starts ranking in less popular keywords and after two or three months full rankings are returned.

[shor]

ThouShaltSeo: A quick visit to the site in question (the one that was under a penalty) will show you who Blair is (also reading the thread will tell you also). He is the stated owner of the domain QUITSMOKINGSUPPORT.COM in the whois record and stated owner of the site that is hosted on that domain.

I think Blair made an honest mistake in linking to all those spammy sites. His site other than that is quite clean. Well that is his verbal declaration anyway.

And a little update on the Non-Profit. I shouldn't have put that in the title as he is not legally Non-Profit but it is his verbal declaration that he runs the site not to make money but to help people.

Hahaha, what a great thread, shame I didn't catch it earlier.

Honest mistake - sure... how can anyone put dodgy links into a 'non-profit' website, hidden visibility 1px links no less, and claim it was an honest mistake?

:D

[bobmutch]

shor: You probably need to read the thread again. The "dodgy links into a 'non-profit' website, hidden visibility 1px links no less" were not on Blairs site. They were on the 3 differnet sites that Blair had given a number of links to. Seems Blair unknowingly gave a number of links to network of spammy sites and ended up picking up a ban for it.

This has caused Blair to pick up a ban and get dropped out of the Google index. He has lost 30% of this over all traffic. After the outbound links from his site to the bad neighbourhood were removed the ban was lifted by Google and his toolbar PR was restored (he had a PR6 and it had dropped to a PR4) but he will end up waiting for a while before his Rankings are returned.

He used to be on the first page for "quit smoking", "quiting smoking" and "help quit smoking". Personally I think it is kind of a shame what has happened. That spammy site using rude spammy pratices has cause Blair lots of grief.

Personally it has been a complete mystery it see SEO people having a good laugh on this thread at Blairs expense. I have rather found it repugnant.

I would have rather expected outrage at the spammy site that caused Blair his problems and condolences to Blair. Its been a real eye opener for me! Not the kind of people I would be interested in doing business with!

[martinuboo]

Great thread. Very informative.

Bobmutch, here's a link to the http header checker I use: http://www.webrankinfo.com/english/tools/server-header.php (you asked for this weeks ago, I just read the thread today)

[Marcia]

Personally it has been a complete mystery it see SEO people having a good laugh on this thread at Blairs expense.
Bob, I think you're misinterpreting the reactions. Many would have thought that with a PR penalty in evidence, the first thing that would have been done is to immediately check who was being linked out to.

With all the link selling/buying/trading going on it's always a consideration, as it should be and has been for years. It's part of the business; therefore, it's part of the procedure

http://www.textlinkbrokers.com/blogs/more/126_0_1_0_M/

Each and every person is ultimately personally responsible for who they link out to from their own site, and if they don't do their due diligence they alone bear the consequences. It's part of their responsibility in running a site, deciding who to sell links to and checking it all out themselves, regardless of any arguments to the contrary.

Linking penalties are caused by linking - that's self-evident. Some people selling links for PR may not be aware, but it now becomes evident how much caution is actually needed. That is exactly what Blair was doing - selling links.

I would have rather expected outrage at the spammy site that caused Blair his problems and condolences to Blair. Its been a real eye opener for me!
Bob, regardless of "innocence" Blair was selling PR and that's the fact of it. People in this business are not particularly naive - if they were they wouldn't last long. Not saying it's right or wrong, but he saw who he was linking to and had opportunity to assess suitability. Hey, girls who don't know better yet can still get pregnant - cause and effect, play with fire and get burnt.

More than likely the way in which it was all found - right here - and by whom far outshone any other considerations on anyone's mind. I think there's more than a touch of irony in the reactions. Sorry, we have to look at the dynamics of the thing in total to get perspective on it all.

Looking at the "cast of players" involved and how it all was played out are a classic in high drama. I've only seen it happen once before this elegantly. Don't know if GoogleGuy will remember the incident over the used car site, but I'll never forget it. :)

[bobmutch]

Maria: Why I don't want to labour this point I don't think I misrepersenting the reactions I have seen on this thread and other threads on the same subject.

To say that Blair was "selling PR" I think is a misrepersentation. He was selling advertizing spots on a stop smoking site that has quality content. He just sold them to the wrong people.

Other than that one point I think I would agree with everything else you have stated. Blair definitely make a mistake in selling advertizement to the bad neighourhood. With out a doubt that is why he got this ban, and in reality it is no ones fault but his own.

I also thought it was very cute the way GG deal with it and I had a good laugh also. But I certianly didn't think it was funny that Blair picked a penalty and I was certianly not impressed with the lame site that his linking to got him the penalty.

[glengara]

*Personally it has been a complete mystery it see SEO people having a good laugh on this thread at Blairs expense. *

Probably a touch of "there but for the grace of God" about it ;-)

[bobmutch]

glengara: "Probably a touch of there but for the grace of God about it ;-)" Very well could be, I hope so. I laughed when I read GG post and though it was a case of classic cuteness myself. I even had a laugh that I was so stupit to have have not picked up the problem right away and that no one else that was looking at the site saw it either. But to laugh at Blair. Nope.

[Symbios]

Googleguy

Thanks for the in depth analysis of the offending site, the outgoing links on [/url] (http://www.quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com) it were pretty bad but it looks like the posts have been raised for us when exchanging links, I've always tried not to link to 'bad neibourhoods' and two of my main quality checks was to look at the page rank and see if Google had a cache of the home page then if all the site and content looked ok I'd probably add a link althoough very often I view the source as well.

In the case of [url="http://www.quit-smoking-quitting-smoking-stop-smoking.com"] this site it has page rank (PR4) and it is cached so many may link to this site if they don't look at the cache (although <a class="giffard" would have been sufficient for me).

My point is that this is a BAD neighboorhood to link to, would it not be better to graybar it or PR0, at least that way those that use the toolbar as a quality check would have some way to avoid bad neighboorhoods.

This is speculation but I'd assume that Google does not want to make life easy for SEO's to game Google, so presenting Page Rank for sites that are bad neighboorhoods may or may not be a bad thing if you had this mindset, but what about everyone else, in the Google guidelines for webmasters it says something like 'don't link to bad neighboorhoods' how the hell is anybody meant to know what a bad neighboorhood is if Google gives it Page Rank.....

[kservik]

It will be interesting to see if the rankings return in the same way that I have seen in the past, First the PR is returned, then the page starts ranking in less popular keywords and after two or three months full rankings are returned.

I bet that that rankings wont come back for atleast 9 months time, maybe much later or maybe never.

Would you keep us updated, Bob?

[Mel]

Its interesting to note that while the home page of this site is still a PR0 some of the interior pages have a PR as high as 5 and are ranking as high as #2 for targeted search phrases.

[bobmutch]

kservik: "Would you keep us updated, Bob?"
After the site was given back its PR on the home page Blair put the bads links back up. As soon as this happened he picked up a penalty and his PR dropped to PR0. It has been that way for quite some time now. Blair removed the links but the penalty has not been lifted.

[kservik]

Why did he do that? You must have gone raving mad if he put the links to the bad neighbourhood up again?

Kim

[bobmutch]

kservik: I am not sure why he did it. I keep an eye on the site and emailed him when he did it and he didn't contact me back. They about a month ago he contacted me asking me if I could help him and what should he do concerning his Google penalty.

I am not really sure what his reasoning was for putting them back up but they were paying ads.

I think the penalty was hand lifted and I persume that the penalty was this time hand applied.

[Marcia]

Now that this old thread got bumped I took a look, and it seems that the PR is back for the site.

[glengara]

Well I took a look at the "bad neighbourhood", G shows some of the old pages with the links now visible but the cached index page is to another site that's doing the exact same thing!?!

[bobmutch]

Its kind if funny to see this old post get bumped every so often by a some one that only has one post and does a link drop for some stop smoking product.

So I got thinking and why not do a "link drop" for Jesus.

I started smoking when I was 12 years old. I have an addictive personality and have had problems in my past with alcohol and drugs also. There are a number of serious alcoholics in the gene pool I come from.

I tried to stop smoking for years and was powerless to the habit. It had power that I just couldn't break.

Well I got sick and tired of being sick and tired I turned to Jesus for help. I repented (a change of attitude) of my past sins, I forsook the sins and asked Jesus for strength and power to be free from the bondage of sin. I gave up the old life I was living and I asked God for new life through Jesus.

Guess what happened. Jesus took the desire for smoking away completely. It was gone! There was no struggling I was completely delivered. He broke the chains of that habit (and other habits also) and set me free.

Now I can say I am happy, redeemed and free.

I would just like to say thank you Jesus for your free STOP SMOKING NOW product called SALVATION : )

Bob Mutch

PS: the quitsmokingsupport.com site now has a PR6, and has the following rankings.
quit smoking #8
quit smoking help #3
quit smoking information #4
quit smoking info #5
stop smoking #17
stop smoking help #4
stop smoking information #8
stop smoking info #7

Now what they used to be.

[Marcia]

Bob, it looks like he's selling links now, but to on-topic sites.

[bobmutch]

His links were always on-topic far as I know. Just they were to spammy on-topic sites with hidden links to PPP sites.