Reputation Abuse

[dannysullivan]

As many of you know, we have a reputation feature here, where people can reward those who post things they like and ding those who post stuff they don't agree with.

It's not a perfect system, and we've always said all along we'd look at ways of tweaking it, if necessary. One of the things in the works is to shift it to an all-positive system, so that people get boost for positive rep but don't get hurt by negative comments. That helps solve the problem for those who are concerned they just might get attacked out of dislike.

(FYI, this is very, very rare. In fact, use of the entire system is pretty rare).

Today Elisabeth made a few minor adjustments of reps where we felt people were specifically and recently just trying to get their score up by being friendly with others and overtly calling for it. We felt like that is undermining the rep system, so we took action. Those few impacted got PM about this.

The FAQ (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_reputationmain) on rep explains that this is something that might happen. We don't want to do it. Doesn't make us happy; doesn't make those involved happy.

I'm not naive enough to assume there won't be private calls to swap rep with each other just to get a score up quickly, rather than earn it through members actually thinking something resonated. I would ask that before doing so, consider the impact it has on the usefulness of the system as a whole to everyone.

In the end, if the system is made completely unworkable through rep abuse, we might radically alter it or completely dump it. I'd like to avoid that, hence this plea. I'd also stress again that to date, abuse has been extremely minor from what we can see -- as has using the system at all. But we don't want the abuse to grow. That really depends on everyone following an honor system, in the end.

[Nick W]

Hey danny, are you going to reset the boost most of the mods got when 'modded'? :eek:

heh....

I dont like the all positive, but whatever. At the end of the day it's how you post and what you say that counts far more than little green (or red) bars...

[Elisabeth]

I'll just add to Danny's comments to say we all need to keep in mind the true use of the Reputation feature is to give members (especially the new ones) a general idea of which members are well respected and typically give reliable and sound advice in their posts.

any abuse of the system undermines its intentions to do so, and to lose the gauge (while not perfect) would be a disservice to the community.

[AussieWebmaster]

If that is the case Elizabeth I am curious what it takes to get another bar... I have not pushed for any increases but have a few positive comments (though some have been with grey bars - so maybe the wrong buttons were pressed)... and have a decent number of posts and start a decent amount of threads that get popularity votes... so an expaination of the system would help...

[dannysullivan]

Hey danny, are you going to reset the boost most of the mods got when 'modded'?
Nope, but the FAQ explains that mods and some company reps started out at two bars. Also explains that they can go up -- or down. I just got a neg rep rating last week. And why do I think about about to get a few more? :)

[I, Brian]

I've really started using the rep system a lot the past couple of weeks. I just feel compelled to comment where it seems useful.

The rep system felt a little restrictive before, especially as I only wanted to rate the most exceptional posts - which tended to be made by a very narrow group of individuals that was too small to rate properly: "You must spread your reputation..."

Nowadays I'll try to rate posts I see which are implicitly helpful and informative, and adding names to the end of rep comments helps with the overall informity of it all (I still don't like the anonymity element).

Only given a couple of negative ratings, but they seemed pretty much invited. Vast majority are positive.

Rating posts sometimes seems odd - tonight I saw Rustybrick trying to be very helpful to a poster, and suddenly I felt like a kind old lady giving out boiled sweets. :)

Oh well. I think I've been working too hard, so I must be coming here in a somewhat fried mood. :D

[projectphp]

Not to be facetious, but who cares??

Will having a better rep achieve anythinbg? I am guessing y'all won't promote people to Mod based upon rep, and newbies won't hire someone based upon rep, so what can manipulating the system achieve?

[bhartzer]

what can manipulating the system achieve?
Just that, a higher reputation. People need to take it for what it's worth. There's a well-known auction site that uses a reputation-like feature, and I think it works well for that site.

Personally, though, I would rather see a number of points rather than just a few bars that are added. It kind of makes me think of the green on the G. Toolbar.

[St0n3y]

IMO it seems to be more of a popularity thing than adding reputation. I could be totally wrong but that's kind of the impression I get. But maybe you gotta give to get... I rarely use the system myself.

[Elisabeth]

IMO it seems to be more of a popularity thing than adding reputation. I could be totally wrong but that's kind of the impression I get.

I'm sure that some view it that way, and part of this discussion is spawned from those just giving it back and forth cause they're friends, and any instances of that seem out of whack will be investigated, and infringers will be warned/docked points when absolutely necessary.

However, the feature is supposed to be used to comment on a SPECIFIC post, with approval/disapproval and a piece of useful feedback either way.

From what I've seen in random samplings, many people are using the system appropriately in this manner.

Of course, the more posts you make, the more opportunity you have to earn points, or become 'popular' :)

[Marcia]

supposed to be used to comment on a SPECIFIC post
That's how I assumed it was supposed to work in the first place. Looking at it that way really can make some look way out of whack.

[St0n3y]

I do think it would be helpful to have a clear point of contact for challenging negataive marks for those who may feel they have been on the receiving end of negative reputation abuse. It seems that some cannot openly talk about this topic without getting slapped with a negative mark.

[DaveN]

St0n3y, I have been given negative rep but i believe that quailty will prevail,

I give Pos Rep when something is true and new
I give Pos Rep in the padded room when sometime makes me laugh so hard
I give Pos Rep if someone takes a thread back on track after it when to ****

I give Neg Rep to people that are rude to newbies
I give Neg Rep to people that give false Info and stand by it till the end

to Name a few

DaveN

[dannysullivan]

It seems that some cannot openly talk about this topic without getting slapped with a negative mark.
That's why we're trying to shift to an all positive rep system. If we can get the changes going:

A positive rep will help your score rise.

A negative rep won't hurt your score at all.

So why bother having negative rep at all? Sometimes people want to disagree with something someone said and let them know. The rep function lets this be done quickly and anonymously. We're also looking to make some type of comments required. But the change also means that we don't have to worry about having their rep attacked some unfair reasons. The hope is that the positive side of things will still help those with outstanding posts rise.

[DaveN]

will I get those bad reps removed now or do I have to beg for more Pos Rep..


And how much boast does a mod get ;) may be worth applying if it worth a 100 reps

DaveN

[cline]

Does the rep feature take into account the number of posts? It seems to me that it should, as one thing the forum should strive for is a better signal to noise ratio. One can post like crazy so that eventually one will say something that someone else will give positive rep for. I'd far rather read high-quality posts from occasional posters than read mass volumes of posts from posters who occasionally post something of high quality.

[seobook]

Does the rep feature take into account the number of posts?
I think your number of posts adds to how strong of a vote you can cast on another. the reality of it is that there is not going to be an easy way to discount post count or control posts with the karma type rating system unless you go to a full slashdot style sytem.

slashdot has got it set up pretty cool over there, but you need a huge userbase and lots of news for that to really scale out...at least I think thats how it works.

also I think often the content and conversation selects the userbase. unless you can get a bunch of people to use the rating system you can't get any meaningful data out of it (kinda like using Alexa to judge the quality of a site).

without much meaningful rating data you can't effectively use the ratings for content management.

[mcanerin]

And remember also that the more posts you have, the more often you can get negative rep, as well - which is a good thing about the +/- rep system and perhaps not a good thing about the pure positive one. I imagine a pure positive one would encourage "me too" behavior. I don't know, of course, but I would not be surprised.

Ian

[St0n3y]

And remember also that the more posts you have, the more often you can get negative rep, as well - which is a good thing about the +/- rep system and perhaps not a good thing about the pure positive one. I imagine a pure positive one would encourage "me too" behavior. I don't know, of course, but I would not be surprised.

Ian

Perhaps something in between would work. Positive rep can be given as those who see fit, but negative rep must be "approved" by the forum moderater for any points to be deducted from that person's reputation. The negative mark would still post but have no effect unless approved. Just a thought.

DaveN, I think you laid out a pretty good vetting process on the rep point you give.

[Marcia]

Rep can be voted, either positive or negative, that's 100% useless to anyone. When no comment is included, it generally gives no idea whatsoever what in the world is right or wrong with a post. With positive rep sometimes it's obvious, others it isn't. In cases of negative rep it's much harder to tell; is the information in the "bad" post inaccurate and misleading, is it off topic to the discussion? What's constructive about using the rep in such cases without comments - what good does it do without a reason?

Without a comment rep does nothing constructive and imho unless things are properly used, they're improperly used - i.e. abused. The *who* isn't important; besides that is VERY easy to figure out in most cases, particularly negative - and most *especially* in the case of negs for moderators. :cool:

For making best and proper use of the system, I don't think rep votes should be allowed at all without also including a comment of some kind.

[AussieWebmaster]

I don't know how it works but I have grey bars for positive posts, have over a thousands posts and have yet to get above my initial bars...
but who cares... I'm not in it for the bars....

[Marcia]

It has nothing at all to do with the bars, AW; it's about the rep feature being used properly (or improperly - aka abused) and serving or not serving a constructive purpose.

[Dave Hawley]

It's a lot like the Google Toolbar PR, for entertainment puposes only :)

To call a spade a spade (which will give some more negativity:) ) the system looks good on paper, but in reality it's never going to mean much. Quality is always in the eye of the reader. This is especially true when one simply posts to try and please the masses. Or, simply posts what all other have been conditioned to agree with.

I tried in on our forum for a while and while I got lot's of positive votes and shot to the top very quick, it was clearly not a reliable or useful system for us. We no longer use it.

Now, hit me with the "I dissagree" button please :p

[St0n3y]

I agree marcia.

What is especcially unhelpful is when rep is posted from someone who's level is too low to give points, either positive or negative, and no note is left. You are left not knowning whether it was inteneded as a positive or negative mark.

[Dave Hawley]

The only suspects for reputation abuse should be those with 5 green squares. It seems quite clear to me that the lower your reputation, the more honest you likely are :D

[Marcia]

>>not knowning whether it was inteneded as a positive or negative mark.

I can usually tell anyway whether it's positive or negative and it isn't hard to narrow down and figure out who, or close enough to make connections. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck and I've been around the block a few times.

>5
Yes, I gave Danny rep for a post for being "cute" and that is the wrong reason.

I still contend it's the comments that are the important part. And let's not even get into that I think certain "areas" shouldn't count for points at all.

[Old Welsh Guy]

I think that giving a positive rep to someone for the overall quality of their post is fine. Somtimes a 'cute' post can diffusea difficult situation. I use humour often to try and diffuse a potential flare up. I see this as helping the tone of the forum by preventing flames etc.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, and prevention is often better than cure. The problem is that it doesn't get such a high profile lol

[AussieWebmaster]

I think that giving a positive rep to someone for the overall quality of their post is fine. Somtimes a 'cute' post can diffusea difficult situation. I use humour often to try and diffuse a potential flare up. I see this as helping the tone of the forum by preventing flames etc.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, and prevention is often better than cure. The problem is that it doesn't get such a high profile lol
Good to see you here mate!

[Old Welsh Guy]

Cheers AW, It's nice to get out sometimes lol

AQuick question, how come I am stuck on one post? :(

[AussieWebmaster]

Cheers AW, It's nice to get out sometimes lol

AQuick question, how come I am stuck on one post? :(
You are at 2 now... lol

[kidmercury]

Personally, though, I would rather see a number of points rather than just a few bars that are added. It kind of makes me think of the green on the G. Toolbar.

i second that.

[Lex]

AQuick question, how come I am stuck on one post? :(
Hi OWG. Great to see ya here. Padded Room posts do not add to your count, FYI.

[Marcia]

If rep can't go both up and down, the feature completely loses its value and meaning. That has nothng at all to do with the abuse of the system, which migh take periodic audits to control, like in accounting. In fact it could cause exactly the reverse to happen and increase the effectiveness of abuse. Without up and down both it's a skewed algo.

[I, Brian]

To disable negative rep from normal members I believe is:

Login to vB 3 Admin > Usergroups > Usergroup manager >

Look to usergroup to edit - ie, Registered - click on "Go" button

Scroll down to

User Reputation Permissions > Can Leave Negative Reputation > No

Scroll to foot of page: Update

[fathom]

hmmm... how can '1' vote per member be abused?

I guess you could waste your time clicking negative [or positive] for everyone thus be able to vote a second time,

or your the most popular blok around and can sway everyone to positively [or negatively] click a single member [hmmm... paying everyone woould work better those ;)],

but over the long-term everyones true colors shine through so it's wasted effort thinking about something so trival.

I mean everyone 'can' read right - let us be judged by what we write.

[glengara]

Just went to check the feature out, it's a hoot!

Admin might consider not allowing comments from someone on your ignore list, might keep the personal animosity stuff down...

[PhilC]

I know this is an old thread but I'm wandering around a bit.

I'd only been here 2 minutes when I suddenly had a red square. I didn't know what it was at the time, but I found out soon enough. It was done out of personal animosity, and I didn't fancy a red square, so I turned the thing off :D

[Jill Whalen]

I'd only been here 2 minutes when I suddenly had a red square. I didn't know what it was at the time, but I found out soon enough. It was done out of personal animosity...

It wasn't me, I swear!

[PhilC]

I know :)

The system told me who it was - he beat you to it! ;)

[AussieWebmaster]

I know :)

The system told me who it was - he beat you to it! ;)I beat Jill at something...lol...

[PhilC]

You little fibber! It wasn't you either - unless you've changed you name since then. :p

[AussieWebmaster]

Damn I really wanted to beat Jill to the punch on something...lol... have a great weekend Jill.

[PhilC]

Ok, AW. I've turned it on just for you :D

I have 2 bars, so I'm a full Lieutenant. If you're quick, you can bust me down to Private before Jill does.

[Jill Whalen]

For the record, I've never given anyone a negative rep. vote here. I've given a few positive ones though.

[AussieWebmaster]

For the record, I've never given anyone a negative rep. vote here. I've given a few positive ones though.
That I believe... and I hope you know I was joking...

[PhilC]

I think we knew that AW ;)

[Bernard]

I don't know if it is a hack or part of the vB system, but I like what SEO Chat did by making rep votes/comments visible on the post that they apply to - no anonymity.

[dannysullivan]

I'm hoping to follow up with the forum software people on the idea of moving to an eBay style rep system. In that, people could post what they think about your posts -- it would be open, and you could in turn see what people say about those doing the comments, as well. First I need to see if we can having such a thing. If so, then I'll open a new therad on the idea of going to it.

[Marcia]

I've made it a practice to put the rep feature to good use. When I notice a member with a helpful attitude contributing some quality posts and then come across one that really strikes me or "resonates" I make sure to make use of the reputation feature.

To be honest, I haven't noticed any abuse of the system in quite a while.

[AussieWebmaster]

The annoying thing about the rep feature is you cannot give rep to the same person for a long time (if ever - don't think I have been able to give it twice).