WebmasterWorld World of Search Conference #7

[Joseph Morin]

So who's here? Send me a PM if there any any impromtu get togethers going on. Its kind of hard to locate people with 7 bars at the Hilton. I'm at the Aladdin.

[NFFC]

plenty of good people to hook up with there.

http://abw.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=548608979&f=179600589&m=904108818

[MrMackin]

THE party will be at the PALMS from 7 to 11 on Wednesday the 17th.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

I am not there yet but I will be - leaving tomorrow morning. I should be there by Monday evening. Hope to see a lot of you there!

[Elisabeth]

i'm flying out tomorrow afternoon too. nothing like last minute planning:)

[rcjordan]

I'm flying out tomorrow morning. I'll be with the rowdy crowd over in the corner of the bar.

[rustybrick]

I'll be there tomorrow night as well. See you there.

[Joseph Morin]

Wow Barry, does this mean we might actually see you out and about socially instead of just fleetingly at the conference itself?

[rustybrick]

Wow Barry, does this mean we might actually see you out and about socially instead of just fleetingly at the conference itself?

Ill be at the Yahoo party, well at least for a bit of it.

I should be at the after hour events this time, I hope.

But for those interested, I will be covering the sessions I attend at my blog.

[sugarrae]

I'm headed out tomorrow. Still have to pack and get my drinking boots on ;).

[seobook]

Still have to pack and get my drinking boots on ;).
I started prepping a bit early and lost my car this morning...luckily I later found it :D

[DrCool]

I get in at about 9:30 tonight. Should be a great time.

[rustybrick]

So when, where, how, we meeting up? :)

[rustybrick]

My coverage so far for the WMW conference. Feel free to post your questions and I will respond as soon as possible. I will update this thread as the day goes on.

WebmasterWorld Conference #7 Opening Ceremonies
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001148.html

Design and Coding for the Complete Package - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001151.html

PFI Topics and Issues - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001152.html

Super Session: History of SEO/SEM Theory and Testing - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001153.html

Search Engine Friendly Design and Coding (Especially Flash) - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001154.html

Informal Discussion with Tim Mayer and the Yahoo! Search Folks
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001155.html

[NFFC]

Good stuff Mr Brick!

Off the bat how does the conference compare to others you have attended, whats the "feel"?

[rustybrick]

My "feel".

This conference has grown. I am not sure the number of "marketers" versus "webmasterworld" people who are here. I would guesstimate about 1,000 people are here, I'll ask Brett for the official number later.

My concern is all the discussion about the 'black hat' methods. Pretty much, every session I have attended spoke about methods to cloak, link spam and more. I understand it is part of the industry and I think it should be discussed. However, if - like SES - this conference has many marketers that do not understand these topics, I doubt they (the marketers) understand why so many people are smirking when discussing cloaking or link spam.

You have the search engine reps in the back of the room laughing, you have those who know a lot about this stuff smirking, but then you have those blank faces that do not understand it.

Its not a concern of mine that these people will use it for 'evil'. It is more of a concern that the audience is changing and the sessions need to change with it.

Leave spam discussion for a smaller conference with a closer group of people.

Hope I got my point across clearly. This conference has been wonderful, it is just different then SES.

[Marcia]

just different then SES
It's metamorphasized to an entirely different demographic.

the audience is changing and the sessions need to change with it. Sounds like they did. ;)

[ihelpyou]

My concern is all the discussion about the 'black hat' methods. Pretty much, every session I have attended spoke about methods to cloak, link spam and more. I understand it is part of the industry and I think it should be discussed. However, if - like SES - this conference has many marketers that do not understand these topics, I doubt they (the marketers) understand why so many people are smirking when discussing cloaking or link spam.
I've heard that's been a large problem since that conference launched. It's nothing new to me. It's a large problem industry wide in my opinion, and why others outside the industry give it the bad reputation. We have top leaders in this industry who don't seem to care that innocent people are reading and learning and listening to those 'in the know' about how to spam. Nobody seems to care about the direction we are going.

I care, and won't let it happen.

It's shocking that Yahoo and even Google seem to not care about what is taught either. I'm very disappointed about that and will be doing "lots" of talking in the near future about all of this.

I recall a thread started in here by Danny on "why has the industry got this bad reputation?" I think the answer to that is rather clear.

[rustybrick]

Doug,

Its not about the methods that concerns me.

Its about knowing who the audience is.

[Nick W]

It's shocking that Yahoo and even Google seem to not care about what is taught either. I'm very disappointed about that and will be doing "lots" of talking in the near future about all of this.


It's not that shocking doug, they're big boys and they know what the score is. This stuff will all become obsolete at some point, and then be replaced with new algo workarounds. It's just the way it works mate. Human nature and all that....

I dont think they actually feel it's a problem. If they did, they'd do somthing about it wouldnt they?

I hope you'll be talking about it here, I dont get over to IHU so much these days :eek:

[ihelpyou]

That's exactly right.

And because this industry seems to always look at things in a "peer to peer" way, the industry does not understand that "others" are watching, reading, listening, and learning. Those who are new to the internet. Those who are just realizing the search engines should be in their business equation. Those who are not new, but have now decided to build a website for the first time. On and on and on and on.

Leaders in this industry don't get that they should be putting themselves in the shoes of those who look up to them and are trying to learn. Instead, the industry is in their own little world without no regard to how the vast internet is perceiving it.

And it is also the "methods". Those methods are being "picked up" and tried by those people above, who are not in a position "yet" to know the consequences. So yes, it's a huge problem that I don't see ending very soon. If I can help it though..... watch out.

[Nick W]

Actually doug, i was taliking about the engines, not industry leaders...

[Marcia]

This is what Barry is talking about, which I believe is the issue at hand

Its not about the methods that concerns me.

Its about knowing who the audience is.

[ihelpyou]

My reply was in response to Barry. Not Nick's as I did not see that post until now.

It's simply an overall industry "thing". No one looks at any of this from the outside looking in to really realize what the heck the industry is doing to itself.

[Nick W]

>>My reply was in response to Barry. Not Nick's as I did not see that post until now.

I did think it was an odd response hehe...

[rustybrick]

Today's sessions are over - shortly the Yahoo Party will begin.

Here are links to my coverage for today's sessions:

Keynote Address - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001158.html

Proactive Linking - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001159.html

Site Promotion and Traffic Acquisition on a Tight Budget - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001160.html

Super Session: Search Engines and Webmasters - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001161.html

Community Building, Blogs and Forums - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001162.html

A few more sessions take place tomorrow. I split after the last session, no after hours coverage from me. Need to get back to NY and do some real Web development, hard core web based application stuff. My knock on SEO, :) :D

[rustybrick]

One more to add for the night;

Yahoo! Party at the Palm's Club Rain - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001163.html

[Jill Whalen]

I care, and won't let it happen.

You gonna go to Vegas and cause a ruckus?

[rustybrick]

Guys don't worry, at the party Yahoo drugged all the spammers with anti-spam pills in their drinks. Problem solved. :D

[sem4u]

Good reporting Barry. Thank's for sharing your thoughts on the conference.

[andrewgoodman]

My "feel".

This conference has grown. I am not sure the number of "marketers" versus "webmasterworld" people who are here. I would guesstimate about 1,000 people are here, I'll ask Brett for the official number later.

My concern is all the discussion about the 'black hat' methods. Pretty much, every session I have attended spoke about methods to cloak, link spam and more. I understand it is part of the industry and I think it should be discussed. However, if - like SES - this conference has many marketers that do not understand these topics, I doubt they (the marketers) understand why so many people are smirking when discussing cloaking or link spam.

You have the search engine reps in the back of the room laughing, you have those who know a lot about this stuff smirking, but then you have those blank faces that do not understand it.

Its not a concern of mine that these people will use it for 'evil'. It is more of a concern that the audience is changing and the sessions need to change with it.

Leave spam discussion for a smaller conference with a closer group of people.

Hope I got my point across clearly. This conference has been wonderful, it is just different then SES.


Hmm... I've never been to one of these, but I thought the whole point of this conference was to smirkingly discuss such methods.

[rustybrick]

To be honest, I do not know the demographic make up of the attendees. For all I know, 95% of them know exactly what is going on. But from the few random people I spoke with, who sat besides me, they had no idea what was going on when these spam comments were dropped.

Again, maybe I am wrong, but I felt many didn't get it.

In the future, I see these discussions staying at the bars. WMW conf is getting a bit too big, IMO, for this.

[Jill Whalen]

Maybe those that decide to attend something like that should read the threads at WMW sometime. As long as they do that, they should certainly know exactly what they're getting into. If they don't, I guess they have no one to blame but themselves! :)

[Nick W]

I thought they squashed threads about spam stuff over at wmw these days?

I have a theory, but only as a theory as i did not attend this one. I did attend the one in london in 2003? and the one after in boston though.

I think the spam stuff, blackhat whatever is a hangover of the old style 'pubcon' where, and correct me if im wrong, MrMackin invited a bunch of people to meet up in a bar and talk shop. The idea grew and wmw adopted the format as it's own.

Over time, the emphasis has changed. Now it's not pubcon, it's a full on 'show' with booths and panels and speakers etc.. (the one in london had very little of this but the one after in boston was more like this present one sounds only less glitzy..)

Perhaps all the underground talk is misplaced now that the show has taken on a more corporate emphasis and target group but there are still some old time pubcon'ers there who want to talk about the same stuff they did earlier in the shows history..

like I say though, i didnt attend this one so that's just a theory :)

[rustybrick]

Sounds like a good theory to me.

But I can not say if its true or not.

[dannysullivan]

I've never been to one of the WMW events where formal sessions were held. When I went to the former PubConference events in London, they felt very much like a class reunion. So concerns that some people might not know what they were getting? I wouldn't have thought that was a problem -- it was all forum regulars having a good time.

The informal structure also meant is was easier for those who wanted to talk underground/black hat/aggressive stuff could do so. Sure, Matt from Google and Tim from Yahoo would float around, but they wouldn't be in all conversations. It's a far different matter to try to present some really aggressive tip on stage. Do that, and it's going to die a quick death.

It kind of ties into the how info travels things Nick blogged (http://www.threadwatch.org/node/359) about recently, and I added my own comments on SEO "secrets" here (http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/blog/041116-073058) if you want more on why I tend not to push people into that.

We have top leaders in this industry who don't seem to care that innocent people are reading and learning and listening to those 'in the know' about how to spam. Nobody seems to care about the direction we are going.
So, Doug, I'll be presumptuous enough to say I'm one of the leaders in the industry, in as much as I help run a site about search plus our own conference series.

What I don't know is if the "nobody seems to care" comment was aimed at me. I do know in the past at your own forum, you used to make a few slams at SES for "putting spammers on stage."

As I've said in the past, I think education is useful. All of our sessions aim for balance, and I very much have the new person in mind. I want them to understand the basic things that will get them good results and not into trouble.

However, I do want them to also understand, if they want the extra education, that it's not all black-and-white. To do that, I do indeed involve some people who are aggressive with search engines. And I can tell you, they're all very careful not to say run out and do this. Instead, they tend to outline what the risks are. More important, they often have real insight into how the search engines fail to operate the way the search engines themselves sometimes claim.

In fact, Greg Boser nearly brought a room of white hatters and scattered black hatters to its feet a few years ago at SES when he went down a list of things where search engines themselves needed to meet standards. And the search reps there, you could see them quietly acknowledging that much of what he said had real concerns. That was leadership, hat color regardless.

As a last point, it is extremely common that to provide balance on panels, there are ample "white hatters" as well as search reps themselves. If the search engines thought the sessions were doing bad, you wouldn't be seeing them take part.

I can't speak for the WMW show, of course. But I can tell you what SES does and why it does it. Perhaps that may ease some of your concerns. Heck, we've got an entire track for the Chicago show that's going to look at the entire issue. People do indeed care and on both sides of the hat divide, actually.

This conference has been wonderful, it is just different then SES.
Barry forgot to mention the key difference. SES now has extra large hallways to accomodate all the halos, a problem Andrew pointed out (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showpost.php?p=18212&postcount=138) recently:

Indeed, it's very tough work to navigate the corridors at SES conferences what with all the halos bumping into one another... clunk, sorry, clunk, sorry...
Andrew, even my wife who stays out of all this search stuff thought that was hilarious comment when I told her.

[rustybrick]

I should add that most of those that talked about 'black hat' methods knew the search reps were in the room. They specifically came out and told the engines to fix these loop holes. Greg Boser, I think, said he had enough of the hijacking domain issue with redirects and it needs to be fixed, he said that might be the nastiest thing out there now.

The positives of open communication. :)

Should add, Oilman is hysterical.

[Marcia]

Maybe those that decide to attend something like that should read the threads at WMW sometime. What they'd find, after realizing that there's no "white hat/black hat" questionnaire when applying for membership, is that there's a balance between hat colors - at least among the ordinary rank and file membership, which may or may not be the same across the entire spectrum. That's what I've seen in the Google forum, which of course is what I'm most familiar with, having spent a good part of my waking hours there for four years.

It's no different than they'll find at any forum where all are welcome, except of course that there are always *attitudes* that can be discerned by those with sensitive, finely tuned perceptions. My personal opinion is that any forum that intends to actually render service to the the internet community should judge members not by the color of their hat, but by the value of their contributions to the community at large and how they conduct themselves toward others.

As long as they do that, they should certainly know exactly what they're getting intoThat wouldn't necessarily let them know what to expect at the conferences. From what I've gathered so far, the "black hat" thing bears no resemblance to the Google or Yahoo forums as I've known them.

In the absense of that, doing nothing more than looking down the sponsor list is the most telling thing of all, and it's right out there in public for all to see. If anyone doesn't comprehend the implications, then they badly needed the education they got. And if they're still confused, there's continuing education available about the reality of the facts of life as it truly exists, to those who have a thirst after going through SEO 101.

[ihelpyou]

As long as they do that, they should certainly know exactly what they're getting into. If they don't, I guess they have no one to blame but themselves!
Yes, blaming the "others" is what the industry is known for. We should start accepting responsibility for what we teach.

Danny: In my post I was not referring to your conference.... this time. :) I have already been given the "skinny" about the upcoming ses and that particular session. Although I still don't agree with the idea of giving spammers the podium in "any" medium, I respect the ses right to do as they please.

[rustybrick]

Forgot to post the final sessions:

Keynote Address II - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001165.html

Link Building and Referral Tracking - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001166.html

Super Session: Running with the Big Dogs! - WMW Conf 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001168.html

Closing Notes at WebmasterWorld Conference 7
http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001169.html

Hope to recap the whole thing on a more abstract level by Monday.

[MrMackin]

rusty:
>However, if - like SES

<wtf>why does Danny put up with this STUFF</wtf>

There were 800 + 200 people there.........

[Jill Whalen]

What they'd find, after realizing that there's no "white hat/black hat" questionnaire when applying for membership, is that there's a balance between hat colors - at least among the ordinary rank and file membership, which may or may not be the same across the entire spectrum.

That's what I meant.

If a forum or group is running a conference or seminar, you can generally know what you'll expect by reading their online stuff.

Which I'm sure most of the attendees had done.

[SEGuru]

I had a great time myself.

I don't participate in the forums, nearly as much as I used to.
I also don't buy into board politics.

So I go into a show with no preconceived notions beyond its own descriptors and word of mouth from people I know and trust and have made money with before.

That's what really counts imho.

However, I am supposed to be unbiased. :D

[rustybrick]

SEGuru,

You might have been the most colorful individual at the conference.

Great presentations and excellent work with the radio show.

[rcjordan]

>Great presentations and excellent work

Hmmmm... Sounds like some sort of stunt-double.

[rustybrick]

>Great presentations and excellent work

Hmmmm... Sounds like some sort of stunt-double.

Joking or did I miss something?

[SEGuru]

No...he's just busting my .....

RC loves me and he knows it!

Thanks for the props RustyB!

You gotta hand it to my wife really...she had her head down and worked really hard to help make that party a success.

We had a very good time at the show and business was unbelieveable for us.

[DaveN]

yer it felt more like SES than Pubcon...But

Had a laugh in SEguru's Bedroom... can you really fit 11 people in one room lol..

Dax - was funny throwing up in his HAT and almost been kicked out of the hotel

I stole one of the security guards scooters while he was there

Oilman , Chris_r and Me all showed how easy it is to buy us, we all wore games and flixs t-shirts of our presentation.. ;)

Matt lost his voice.... hehehe

Sat in a presentation and Tim Mayer asked to borrow my laptop, so i give it to him, everyone sat with me was like wtf are you doing Dave, I said it's Tim not Matt ..lol

tried really really hard to make the Affiliate Smack Down session REAL !


DaveN

[SEGuru]

Ok Dave,

But how about that Yahoo Party! I mean, was that like the bomb or what!

[rustybrick]

My question about the Yahoo! Party is:

Who was making those 'Yaaaahooooooo!' call outs?

[SEGuru]

It was an Interactive M.C. that was hired to help get everyone through the evening, etc. He did the Yahoo! singing and cracked me up too!

[rustybrick]

It was an Interactive M.C. that was hired to help get everyone through the evening, etc. He did the Yahoo! singing and cracked me up too!

Good to know. It was a great and almost exact copy of the commercial.

[DaveN]

Yahoo party ... ok p!ssed my pants when 6 foot flames short from lighting rig... thought the place was on fire ;)

yer it rocked ..

DaveN