Want To Be SEO's / SEM's

[Anthony Parsons]

This room is padded for a reason, because I am frustrated and going to scream. I have am dealing with one of my US clients who just brought me into a chat with his ex SEO whom did just a wonderful job spamming the site, creating duplicate content and domains all that have been punished, and only gets 27 sales per day compared to his direct competition which is receiving over 130 sales daily.

This want to be, absolute idiot, just analysed me first by saying, you have a PR5, then an Alexa rank of whatever. Who the hell cares about what an alexa amazon toolbar says. What was even funnier is than when I said you can manipulate alexa rankings by installing the bar and visiting all your pages each day atlease once, the reply was only scammers think the alexa toolbar doesn't count.

Is it just me, or is this want to be just an oxygen thief? This so called SEO actually designs software, not even dedicated to search engines and marketing. What really gets me is that the customer, is actully debating why he contacted myself now and comparing me against his old SEO. I am just amazed at what goes through peoples head when they find a professional dedicated to the correct market, then they don't want to listen. Traffic is more important than conversion. Go figure. I am really getting sick and tired of the attitude of these crap overnight SEO's. They should have something like spamcop for SEO thiefs to be reported and taken out of the market. Unbelievable.

Well, I feel a little better, but not much. I think this client can go elsewhere.

[jbgilbert]

Well, I feel a little better, but not much. I think this client can go elsewhere

Personally, I think you would be doing the right thing by firing the client. Reputable SEOs can gather plenty of good business from reputable clients.

No need to pacify a client who questions your ability or ethics!

[Anthony Parsons]

The thing that gets me the most, is that I am now behind in work on some other clients sites, because another wants to employ me, then compare with against spammy SEO techniques that they obviously prefer. I just can't make sense of some peoples thinking. Does commonsense hold no value in the minds of CEO's / Proprietors, whatever you want to call them?

Thanks for those reassuring words JB.

[Daria_Goetsch]

Anthony,

Sounds extremely frustrating! There's not much you can do other than gently send the client on their way. I'm always concerned when I hear someone spouting "absolutes" about SEO. Everyone has their own methods and understanding of what's going on. Common sense should always rule out over one-upmanship. I've had a few clients who thought they knew a great deal about SEO but really didn't. It can create havoc for everyone involved.

[rustybrick]

Its funny, this happens in pretty much every industry.

The customer will come back to you after. Drop them now in a diplomatic fashion. Tell them if you ever want "free advice" that you will be there for them. Then after the site gets nailed by the search engines, expect a phone call from your old client.

Don't let this get to you.

[Anthony Parsons]

Thanks Daria.

You know, you generally find this annoying stuff out from prospective clients before they become a client. But when they introduce this rubbish once your employed, that's just crap and creates absolute uncertainty.

Basically, the only thing the last SEO did was include tiny text on each page, top and bottom, and include the keyword into the query for each page written through a script. Thats just not SEO to me. What they got was both main domains currently penalised in Yahoo and MSN with one main penalised in Google. All the other 100 or so rubbish domains that list a few pages each, all done for duplicate content of the main domains. As far as I could see, they did more damage than good. The site runs affiliate marketing and other great marketing technqiues externally to the site which I think is what currently keeps it afloat with the few sales it makes daily.

It just really frustrates the hell out of me and annoys me for the ignorance of so many. You tell people to do there research first. I even asked the company if they had researched other SEO's first, which they said they had and come back to me because of my proven professionalism. I though that had solved those sorts of problems before we started, obviously I was very wrong.

Thank goodness this room is padded for extra protection when banging my head against the wall.

[Daria_Goetsch]

Good advice from both jbgilbert and rustybrick.

You know, you generally find this annoying stuff out from prospective clients before they become a client. But when they introduce this rubbish once your employed, that's just crap and creates absolute uncertainty.

Yes, it makes it much more difficult to deal with. Sometimes you have no idea how the client will react until later in the SEO process.

Basically, the only thing the last SEO did was include tiny text on each page, top and bottom, and include the keyword into the query for each page written through a script. Thats just not SEO to me. What they got was both main domains currently penalised in Yahoo and MSN with one main penalised in Google. All the other 100 or so rubbish domains that list a few pages each, all done for duplicate content of the main domains. As far as I could see, they did more damage than good. The site runs affiliate marketing and other great marketing technqiues externally to the site which I think is what currently keeps it afloat with the few sales it makes daily.

That doesn't sound like SEO to me either. With that many domains with duplicate content, I think you're asking for trouble.

It just really frustrates the hell out of me and annoys me for the ignorance of so many. You tell people to do there research first. I even asked the company if they had researched other SEO's first, which they said they had and come back to me because of my proven professionalism. I though that had solved those sorts of problems before we started, obviously I was very wrong.

Yeah, they come to you because of your professionalism, yet they question it. I've had that happen a few times myself, lack of knowledge on the client's part. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses and move on if possible.

[seomike]

Anthony it sounds like a liability to me bro.

I wouldn't touch that client with a ten foot pool.

Once a site starts down the dark path for ever will it dominate it's desitny LOL. Once it starts getting penalties, you'll have to rely on the engines good graces for salvation.

I'd say trash the old site delete all the rubish. buy a fresh domain and start it over from scratch and do it up right.

[pleeker]

Let 'em go, Anthony. Water seeks its own level.

[sem4u]

What really gets me is 'SEOs' who have designed one site for non-competitve terms and then decide that they are good enough to offer a complete SEO service.

Then I see the same SEOs appearing in forums asking the most basic of questions. Sometimes I just have to laugh at it. :)

[seobook]

Then I see the same SEOs appearing in forums asking the most basic of questions. Sometimes I just have to laugh at it. :)

that is kinda the name of the game. you dont get to be successful by claiming your ignorance the whole way through the learning cycle...

[Anthony Parsons]

Anthony it sounds like a liability to me bro.

I wouldn't touch that client with a ten foot pool.

Once a site starts down the dark path for ever will it dominate it's desitny LOL. Once it starts getting penalties, you'll have to rely on the engines good graces for salvation.

I'd say trash the old site delete all the rubish. buy a fresh domain and start it over from scratch and do it up right.

Thanks mate. That is what I actually advised them to do with the one that had been dropped in Google. The only thing they had was one domain in Google, the rest dumped em. I just had them convinced to do it right when they obviously doubted me and asked the old SEO for advice, and thus the problem began. Me being me, just won't take that rubbish. You try and steer them in the right direction and, well yes Mike, as you state, they continue that road forever.

They have hit the high road after my last conversation with them. If they want me now, they're going to pay double.

What really gets me is 'SEOs' who have designed one site for non-competitve terms and then decide that they are good enough to offer a complete SEO service.

Then I see the same SEOs appearing in forums asking the most basic of questions. Sometimes I just have to laugh at it.

Or a really good one I saw not so long ago was an Web Designer / Sell SEO services have their website up for review as they couldn't get it ranking for a non-competitive term that wasn't even targeted once for an allintitle search....and they got upset when I cruelled them. Go figure.

[Anthony Parsons]

And a big thankyou staff for making this padded room to vent things.....cheers for that.

[Anthony Parsons]

that is kinda the name of the game. you dont get to be successful by claiming your ignorance the whole way through the learning cycle...

That's a crock mate IMO. If you don't have the experience and knowledge backing you, then don't do it. I will love the day when they bring in an accreditation for this industry. That will sort most of the credibility part out. Your either certified or your not.

[seobook]

It may be crock, but most of the best SEOs don't tell anyone what they do or how they do it. if you don't interact then you don't learn. about a year ago I probably had a ton of incorrect info on my site being absolutely non the wiser. I update it as I can, but nobody knows everything and there really is no can or can't do in my eyes it is just replication of minor effective techniques many times over.

I mean some technique or knowledge is required to promote selling drugs, porn sites, hosting, or gambling sites but most sites do not require tons of technique or skill.

It is a learning experience for everyone. It does not require a ton of skill, just attention to details and a willingness to do tedious stuff over and over again.

being a good communicator or creative is a real plus, but even those are not required to promote most sites.

[Anthony Parsons]

You make a good point Aaron. IMO, the biggest secret to SEO is........wait for it......"Commonsense".

I actually have an idea for a future site based around what you say about SEO's not sharing their so called secrets. More on that when it happens.

You can tell people they need to put "x" amount of phrases in a page, keep it well written and don't stuff the page, but at the end of the day, frustration gets the better of them, they read something somewhere else and they do everything you tell them not too. Failure is imminent! The ones with commonsense, think about it, feel it is logical in all aspects, so give it a go just as you say. There the ones that come back and thank you for helping them. This is only my opinion on the matter though.

I think its like fixing an engine. Some people just take naturally to a spanner and mechanical concepts, other do not. Same same with SEO / SEM. I suppose the end result is the same for both, they blow up when performed incorrectly.

[K.S. Katz]

I wouldn't take that client even if they came back. Reason being: if they question you once, they'll do it all the time.

I once had a client that drove me nuts with daily emails from SEO spam with "I'll guarantee you top rankings..." Save yourself the headache and consider yourself lucky that you caught the nightmare before the contract was signed.

As far as wanna-be SEOs, I think the real problem is that some SEOs have the hubris to think they know everything. When you question their tactics, rather than defend them, they point the finger. Ego is a terrible thing in the hands of a wanna-be.

Personally, I never claim to be an expert at anything. I prefer the term: SEO practioner. ;)

[David Wallace]

Yep, I'd "fire" that client as well. It always torks me when a client begins to "compare" or especially" price shop" me. I just tell them that if you don't appreciate the value of my services as well as the excellent customer service I have provided you over the years, then by all means, go get in bed with the other company you are looking at.

Funny situation if we did the same thing. We gain a company in lets say the blue widget industry, but then we go and try to get a better client that will pay more only to come back to the first and say, "Hey, I found a client that sells blue widgets just like you but who will pay me more to do their SEO. What do you think about that?"

As for all these new SEOs, I always defend my self by stating the facts and those being how long we have been in business (since 1997), our affiliations (BBB, SEOPros, etc., etc.), my own credentials as a published author, moderator on forums, etc. and our results (the clients and results we have obtained over the years). If that ain't enough for them, then I say "See you then! Good luck with your newbie SEO!"

[semsai]

When it comes to SEM/SEO, the customer is always Dwight.

You've plead your case with the client; allow them to reach an intelligent business decision. :confused:

If they go with the other guy, send your former client a quote for 2 years of your services to get the site back in Google (et. al.) after it's banned -- or relegated to obscurity on page 753 of results pages -- due to the other guy's questionable tactics. Keep a bead on the site once a month and watch for the drop in performance. Then step in, put on your cape, and come to the rescue. Tell the former client to bring a pen and their wallet.

I optimize, therefore I am :o
Semsai

[pleeker]

What really gets me is 'SEOs' who have designed one site for non-competitve terms and then decide that they are good enough to offer a complete SEO service.

Then I see the same SEOs appearing in forums asking the most basic of questions. Sometimes I just have to laugh at it. :)

I'd be very cautious about judging anyone based on what gets asked in a Forum like this. I've seen some people who I consider incredibly intelligent and way above my level of expertise asking some questions that I considered very basic. It happens. It doesn't make the person any less intelligent or skilled or whatever. We all need 'basic' reminders every now and then.