Danny Sullivan leaves SEMPO.

[Mike Grehan]

Danny, I tip my hat to you again and happy to do it in public.

Your reflections on SEMPO piece is written in your usual fair and well balanced style.

However, I think it's a very sad day for the industry when two of the leading figures in it (yourself and Chris Sherman) feel more comfortable in an arms-length relationship with that which would be an industry representative body.

I honestly believe that, as you are so highly regarded in this industry, your presence with the organisation is likely to have been a primary factor in why a good number of people joined in the first place. It's certainly something that I factored in.

And I have to say, personally, I feel even less comfortable about the organisation without you and Chris on board than I did before.

The veil of silence which SEMPO continues to surround itself with is the poorest example of community or public relations I have ever witnessed in my entire marketing career. And that much silence only sends ominous signals that they have that much to hide.

During this whole episode, since I wrote the first article about SEMPO, you have pretty much been the conduit between the board and the members. Other people such as Jill Whalen and myself have tried to get some direct answers, but as you mentioned yourself it has been much of a "teeth pulling" exercise.

Without you as "the messenger" and because the board is in a position to replace yourself and Chris with couple of marionettes should they wish (once again it will have nothing to do with the members), I for one, just felt another chunk of what little credibility they have, slip off the side and into the sea.

[AndyBeal]

Where does SEMPO go from here? Without the support of Danny and Chris, could Google and Overture question their involvement?

Any news on what Jupiter plans to do? Surely their involvement was directly linked to Danny and Chris.

At this stage, I'm not sure if SEMPO is worth salvaging or if we should all go back to the drawing board. The board of directors will always be commended for setting up the organization, they simply did not have the experience to run a non-profit organization that separates the goals of the many from the goals of the select few.

[Nick W]

That's great news.

That's been itching at me for a little time now: why is DS still a part of this?

Now he's not. Good stuff.

Nick

[rustybrick]

Andy, To be fair to Danny and Chris, as they pointed out at your blog (http://www.searchenginelowdown.com/2004/09/danny-sullivan-reviews-sempo-resigns.html), they both make it clear that they will continue to offer advice to SEMPO but not in "an official capacity". I personally find this a good thing, why? Because Danny and Chris are the leading news body on the SEM industry. For them to be too closely tired to SEMPO in an official capacity, would hurt their objectivity when reporting on SEMPO. I can not talk for them, but I have a strong feeling that this was one of the major reasons for them stepping down.

Now, does that have an impact on if Jupiter will drop out? Maybe, but I don't believe so. Jupiter is a company with less of a direct, responsibility to the industry then Danny or Chris (IMO).

Its true, SEMPO is moving incredibly slow. I am not sure how many types of organizations you have been associated with on the same level as we are associated with SEMPO. I am told, that these non-profits move at turtle speed. I know from being on the education committee, that there are a lot more email communications going back and forth between the committee members and the people who run the organization (a lot more then ever before). I keep being the one to say, lets give them more time. I am beginning to question myself.

[orion]

This is actually a great day. When one starts an experiment and something goes wrong, it is better to start all over again. This little SEMPO exp is not likely to succeed with the present leadership and mentality.

Better start a new organization from scratch.

Orion

[dannysullivan]

SEMPO will survive and thrive not because I'm involved, Chris is involved, Overture is involved, Jupiter is involved, Google is involved or any individual person or company, in my opinion. SEMPO will survive if its members want it to survive.

As said in the article, SEMPO is making news, and it makes sense for Chris and I to step back. I don't think it should be seen as a sad day for SEMPO that we're doing so. I think it's a sign that SEMPO has actually grown to the point where people care about what is is doing, good or bad. We need more distance, ironically, for better ability to cover the group.

By the way, I've no idea of what Jupiter plans to do. Jupiter's involvement with SEMPO as a sponsoring organization is completely independent from what Chris and I did in our roles as working for SEW.

As for whether it should simply be replaced with something new or instead improved, again I return to something I said in the article. SEMPO needn't be the only industry group out there. This isn't Highlander. There can be more than one.

In fact, the IAB search committee is very much a rival group to SEMPO that has received none of the attention that SEMPO has gotten. So we've got at least two groups out there. Maybe more marketers will band together to create others. And that would be great.

But I do think SEMPO deserves a bit more time, as I covered in the article -- near future time, and real progress updates during that period. I know, it's tiring for some to hear this. But they actually did appear to gain more volunteers stepping forward than they ever had before. And it would be good for them to have time to more carefully think out how they restructure, rather than to just rush. Otherwise, they could get right back to some of the same problems they've encountered already.

And that brings me right back to the members. Ultimately, they'll as a whole dictate what the group does, where it goes and how successful or not it will be -- not any one individual.

[Mike Grehan]

And that brings me right back to the members. Ultimately, they'll as a whole dictate what the group does, where it goes and how successful or not it will be -- not any one individual.

I admire your continued support for the people behind SEMPO Danny. And I respect your optimistic attitude for the organisation as a whole.

However, the quote above suggests that the members actually do have some say in the direction and future of the organisation. It's precisely because the members seem to have NO real say in the future or direction of the organisation that I wrote my first article and remain anti-SEMPO.

I'm a member and nobody has ever consulted me about anything since the day I joined. I've been TOLD what I'm expected to do for SEMPO and railroaded around a bit by one of the board members, but I've yet to be consulted or asked to vote on an issue. And that's because of the lack of ethos. SEMPO is really not about members.

Just look at the way members are ignored at levels well beyond those which would be tolerated by those of any other industry body.

The continued veil of silence and total lack of open dialogue with members is simply embarrassing and unprofessional, to say the least.

[rustybrick]

Which was why I was so surprised by the SEMPO meeting in San Jose. The members were there right? Maybe the stuffed the room with people who were told to be quiet and clap. :)

But very few number of members actually said anything negative about SEMPO during the 5 minute Q&A session. I guess some of it was orchestrated, but my impression was that the vast majority of the member base was happy.

[Joseph Morin]

but my impression was that the vast majority of the member base was happy.

I would agree because I'm one of them and I would have to say that most members I speak to have no beef with SEMPO, it seems like a few who are upset for one reason or another (and to their credit are making valid points) are the ones making the most noise.

SEMPO is what you make of it. I wasn't contacted, I volunteered and the organization has been very good for me and for many I have spoken to, but then I spend more time in person or on the phone with my industry colleagues than on the boards.

Our industry need a voice. I continue to support.

[AndyBeal]

This isn't Highlander. There can be more than one.

:) ... cue Queen's "Who wants to live forever!"

[rankforsales]

I guess the ball is in SEMPO's court now...

It will be interesting to see what they do about this. Like most people that have posted here, I also agree that SEMPO is taking way too much time to address this issue.

Also, the way they carried themselves at the meeting in San Jose leaves a lot to be desired.

I wish them well, but at the same time, I think the industry is apprehensive of what will follow next.

[bethabernathy]

In fact, the IAB search committee is very much a rival group to SEMPO that has received none of the attention that SEMPO has gotten.

I am not sure on this, but I checked out the IAB site and incorporation status, from what I can see, they filed as "Not for Profit" in New York. I read about their advertising and while they do say they give you a hot link on their website, from looking through the various member categories I am not seeing links or anything hierarchical like Sempo. I think I could be missing something? See:

http://www.iab.net/comm/searchengine_comm.asp

:)

[dannysullivan]

Beth, I didn't mean to say (1) the IAB was doing anything wrong or (2) that there was some specific non-profit the IAB might be doing wrong. What I was pointing out is that SEMPO since its launch has been under a microscope for a variety of issues that I outlined in my article. In contrast, I've never heard any of these issues raised about the IAB committee. Some of them probably are applicable, as I said in my article, such as the "elite" nature of that group or the fact they seek to establish standards regarding XML despite having from what I can tell fewer search marketers signed up than SEMPO.

[hiero]

Well....it appears to me that one thing is for sure, and that would be that if SEMPO is to live on it needs to re-invent itself. It also needs to state UP FRONT exactly what it does and will continue to do. All marketing hype and propaganda needs to be removed from this not for profit organization.

It should start by DOING (not stating) exactly what it says:

SEMPO is a non-profit professional association working to increase awareness and promote the value of Search Engine Marketing worldwide.

[bethabernathy]

I checked out, as much as possible today, the IAB, and looks like they run a totally different deal. They changed names from the Internet Advertising Bureau to the Interactive Advertising Bureau see:

http://www.workz.com/cgi-bin/gt/tpl_page.html,template=1&content=1947&nav1=1&

"The Interactive Advertising Bureau, formerly the Internet Advertising Bureau, is restructuring with a renewed mission to help direct the industry to a new level of performance."

I think this group was formed way before SEM came full scale into the mix. Looks like 1997. Anyway, my point is: Sempo is here at the time when SEM is coming into a real AD AGency MIX. Which means to many companies quite a bit of $. So that is probably why Sempo is under more scrutany.

I only put this out there for comment and have no factual basis on my internet review, which makes this, just, one of my very little tiny opinions.

[Jill Whalen]

Other people such as Jill Whalen and myself have tried to get some direct answers, but as you mentioned yourself it has been much of a "teeth pulling" exercise.

Yes, it certainly has been like pulling teeth!

But I have to say that communication has certainly been getting better. They have people like Dan Thies and Matt Bailey on their communication committee, which has brought about some changes.

This month's SEMPO newsletter was just sent out yesterday, and it was a huge improvement over last month's. Plus, they did address most of the questions I and others had posed to them regarding some major concerns people had.

They've even allowed Ian McAnerin to post legal answers (not as their attorney, but answers nonetheless.)

Bottom line is that SEMPO is showing that the ARE trying to communicate better, and according to that communication, they are trying to fix what was broken. For that I applaud them (but you don't have an applause smiley like we do at HRF! :p ).

As much as I love Mike, I was a little taken aback by the headline of this thread, where he seemed to sensationalize Danny's stepping down as a SEMPO advisor. I read Danny's article where he mentioned -- what seemed like in passing -- how he and Chris Sherman had decided to step down for the reasons he has also posted here.

Yes, technically, Danny has left SEMPO, but it's not like he's quit in anger, because he doesn't believe they're doing a good job, or not fulfilling their mission.

Unfortunately, I see that there's another whole problem with the SEMPO UK committee now, which is a shame because I really was thinking they were on the right track. Hopefully, that one will get squared away to everyone's satisfaction.

MODERATOR NOTE: A new thread discussing the UK committee was created and some responses from this thread moved there: How Was SEMPO's UK Committee Formed? (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=1607)

[ihelpyou]

LOL Ridiculous.

I think "some" people need to listen to Mike Grehan more often. This kissing up to others that some out there are doing is truly noticeable. You know who you are.

SEMPO "may" be improving. I certainly hope so since they have had exactly 1 1/2 years now to start. I personally don't see much of anything of an improvement. Committees? My goodness; I would think they should get the Major issues worked out first before anything such as a "committee" of any kind exists. Then, to top things off, we have good people who are secretly appointed to a committee who aren't even a member? Too funny.

BTW, Chris and Danny resigning was a "very" smart move on their part, no matter what the reasons may be.

[Nick W]

I think "some" people need to listen to Mike Grehan more often. This kissing up to others that some out there are doing is truly noticeable. You know who you are.


Im not with you there? but I think this is the first time we've agreed on anything....

Nick

[Jill Whalen]

Look guys, SEMPO obviously has a lot of things to work out.

I'd love to see any one (or more) of you start your own org. so we can pick you apart too.

C'mon, who's gonna step up to the plate. I know I'm sure not gonna. I have enough people who like to pick on me without doing something like this.

Please, think of it from their point of view. They ARE trying. Cut them some slack and let 'em do what they need to do.

Once again, I have to say that people are getting a little bit over zealous with this. Yes, there have been mistakes made, and apparently they are big ones. It's great to bring them to their attention because otherwise they'd never fix 'em. But they are still all volunteers, and they are still all trying to run their own businesses at the same time.

They are making strides. We are seeing improved communication and things being fixed. I for one would like to see them have some time to fix the rest of what needs to be fixed.

If you still have a problem with anything in particular then voice you concerns, and hopefully they will work on it. They've been very responsive this past month. That is a GOOD thing.

To those who just want them to die, and who always have, well we already get your agenda.

[bethabernathy]

Just an FYI, this is the most unorganized operation I have ever seen. Of course, I have only worked in house, for strictly organized lawfirms.. who trained me. I finally received their Articles of Incorporation from the State of Delaware and it is just a complete wash. Bottom line, the group was founded on self promotion, crying about the work, getting paid as a result. Probably trying to upstage the UK SEMs. I have been doing some posting out here and when someone is annoyed with me, I listen and try to understand their opinion. Sempo, no way, would they begin to listen and/or respond to grievences (sp?) and that is from DAY 1!!!

[Mike Grehan]

Just an FYI, this is the most unorganized operation I have ever seen. Of course, I have only worked in house, for strictly organized lawfirms.. who trained me. I finally received their Articles of Incorporation from the State of Delaware and it is just a complete wash. Bottom line, the group was founded on self promotion, crying about the work, getting paid as a result. Probably trying to upstage the UK SEMs. I have been doing some posting out here and when someone is annoyed with me, I listen and try to understand their opinion. Sempo, no way, would they begin to listen and/or respond to grievences (sp?) and that is from DAY 1!!!

Beth,

You sum it all up. But completely.

Thanks so much.

Mike.

[Jill Whalen]

Bottom line, the group was founded on self promotion, crying about the work, getting paid as a result. Probably trying to upstage the UK SEMs.

Huh? What's that mean?

Sempo, no way, would they begin to listen and/or respond to grievences (sp?) and that is from DAY 1!!!

Again, huh? How can you say that when they've been very responsive this past month.

And I thought you just started getting interested in SEMPO recently. How do you know what they've been like from Day 1?

[bethabernathy]

I am very sorry, I just do not feel these people started Sempo, at the onset, with the right intentions. AND ... I have been interested from the onset about their formation. Perhaps I am not a part of the SES in crowd, but that is something I can change, if I feel like it (I have made my position on this clear previously).

You don't think this group was formed to promote their own businesses? I guess I should do a summary. Could go broke while doing so and trying to get to the road show.

Anyway, you want the Articles of Incorporation ... Here they are:
Sempo Articles of Incorporation (http://www.integratedresourcemgmt.com/secure/sempo-articles-incorporation.html)

Quite boring, but again, lends to the By-Laws which makes me, again, much more interested.

Have fun at the Road Show. And ... I Would Not Imagine I would have to sleep with anyone to get an invitation? :D

[rustybrick]

I am very sorry, I just do not feel these people started Sempo, at the onset, with the right intentions.

The only ones that can answer that are the ones that formed SEMPO. I guess those that really known the people who started SEMPO could also make a judgmental call on this. I know Mike knows many of the SEMPO leaders for a long time now, so his opinion is important. I also know Jill knows these people as well. So does Danny, so does Chris and so do many people.

I personally would never state others intentions, its hard enough for me to know my own intentions sometimes. ;)

You don't think this group was formed to promote their own businesses?

I am not sure if it was formed to promote their own businesses. Maybe it led to that, based on what has been seen. Again, ones intentions early on can only be answered by those who had those intentions. Actions taken, well - that is factual. Intentions within one's mind - :confused:

[Nick W]

I dont know these people (well, maybe a few) but i feel more than entitled to an opinion based on what i've seen, read, and heard over the last 18mts....

Come on Rusty and Jill, you dont have to be in the "golden circle" to have an opinion, take a hit on the old rep system for bad manners ;)

Nick

[rustybrick]

Come on Rusty and Jill, you dont have to be in the "golden circle" to have an opinion, take a hit on the old rep system for bad manners

Opinions are just that. I am just saying, that since I am not in the "golden circle", my opinion on ones intentions, is not worth as much, as someone within the "golden circle".

But of course, since this impacts everyone in the SEM industry, opinions are important.

I am just saying, for me to guess at what one's intentions were, would be unfair of me. If it was my best friend or someone I knew for years, then it would be a more valid statement.

[Jill Whalen]

It's very easy for those who don't step up to the plate to say that people do things for self promotion. I'm so sick of hearing that.

Why can't anyone ever believe that there are people in this business (or any other business) that just do things because they want to for the greater good?

I hear it all the time about myself too, and it's just so wrong. There really are some people out there who like to help others and do stuff just because they like to.

There are a lot easier ways for the board members of SEMPO to self promote than to start an organization, don't you think? I can think of hundreds of much easier ways!

[bethabernathy]

SORRY I CANNOT BUY INTO THAT!!. Although, unlike Sempo, I will try and listen and change my opinion, procedures, etc. if needed.

[Nick W]

Under the current atmosphere, and with hindsight of past DUMPO action/inaction it's actually rather easy to, and most human to, speculate on motivation.

This is a ridiculous argument. People speculate on motives every day, you do, I do, everyone does, it's part of how people interact with one another.

And with DUMPO's laughable approach to communication it's hardly surprising that people doubt there motives.

It's not a damn court of law, no one is required to "be" someone else in order to have an opinion on their motives, no one needs "direct evidence" to speculate based on what facts are available..

Nick

[rustybrick]

Nick,

All I am saying is that I would not speculate or assume.

I am not telling you or anyone else they can not. As you said, people do it all the time.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I really do not know the answer to Beth's question about SEMPO's leaders intentions when starting SEMPO. I do not know, I won't speculate.

[Nick W]

I am saying is that I would not speculate or assume


Sorry Rusty, my reply was really to Jill but since you made the above statement I'll comment:

What are you? SuperSEO -> (picture the superman costume etc...) hehehe ;-) Everybody does. It's human nature, and quite unavoidable.

Nick

[rustybrick]

Errr, being a mod here, I will have to say, lets get back on the topic of this post.

I am far from a super anything. I really do my best to be as respectful to everyone in person and in forums. Sometimes things don't come out right all the time.

But I really do try to be as respectful as possible. That means, I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. You and I have seen it, sometimes assumptions can lead to bad things. Diplomacy goes a long way.

If a SEMPO person came here and said they started SEMPO out of their love for the industry and not for personal benefit, I would doubt them. But its not for me to judge them. I just dont know them well enough.

Scenario A: SEMPO was started to benefit those who started the organization.

Scenario B: SEMPO was started to benefit the industry.

In scenario A, then it is backfiring. Of course, they might have landed a few big contracts within the year because of SEMPO. But now look at them. I bet after reading some of the posts, they wish they never started the organization. But I am not sure....

In scenario B, Its kinda late here, not sure I can answer this properly. But, I think the industry received both a negative and positive from SEMPO.

[Nick W]

Not a personal attack rusty, just joshing with you ;-)

>>on topic

Yep, time to move on out of the he said she said garbage and get back to the real deal:

Here's one thought i had on it whilst having my coffee:

Committees
A committee is a very, very bad vehicle for decision making. If you've ever had to be part of one, you'll know what I mean.

What an org like this needs is LEADERSHIP and DECISION MAKING. That wont come out of a committee IMO

If an org for this industry could have solid leadership and decision making based upon member voting for "this years president" (or somthing similar) and that president actually made decisions and took action based on why he/she was voted in, they'd most likely be a more dynamic, and possibly even useful entity.

Nick

[ihelpyou]

LOL My last post can by "inputted" right here all over again.








Besides my prior post..... let's say I posted it again, this needs to be reposted as well:

Under the current atmosphere, and with hindsight of past DUMPO action/inaction it's actually rather easy to, and most human to, speculate on motivation.

This is a ridiculous argument. People speculate on motives every day, you do, I do, everyone does, it's part of how people interact with one another.

And with DUMPO's laughable approach to communication it's hardly surprising that people doubt there motives.

It's not a damn court of law, no one is required to "be" someone else in order to have an opinion on their motives, no one needs "direct evidence" to speculate based on what facts are available..
VERY true.

[bethabernathy]

And I thought you just started getting interested in SEMPO recently. How do you know what they've been like from Day 1?

Actually I was interested in the membership and inquired several times last year in August, but after 3 emails to them, I did not receive a response. I followed their formation at that time. Then that Circle system was something I could not afford and didn't think the $299 membership would be of any value as my link would be buried. So, clearly, I looked at it as an advertising opportunity.

Then the stipend issue arose and THE LIGHT WENT ON!

[dannysullivan]

FYI, I split the posts discussing the UK committee, how it was formed, who is on it and resulting issues to here: : How Was SEMPO's UK Committee Formed? (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=1607).

[rbateman]

SEMPO will survive if its members want it to survive.
I couldn't agree with you more Danny and I have no intention of renewing next year. I suspect I will not be the lone person to take this position. We will vote with our wallets.

As a SEMPO member I am also in total agreement with everything Mike has stated to date. His comments expand on the incendiary little post I started over at ihelpyou forums titled "Some comments from a small fry member of SEMPO..."

Throughout this process, I have yet to receive a single communication from SEMPO addressing any of these issues. As long as Ms. Coll and her cronies maintain their bodyguard of silence, they will only make things worse regarding renewals from members like me. As their advisor, you might consider passing this tidbit on.

As to your departure, unfortunately despite what you may offer as to your reasons, and legitimate as they might be, perception is reality, and it appears you are as disillusioned as I, though understandably you must bow out more diplomatically.

As to the question of do they represent me as an SEO specialist, or my industry, based on their actions but perhaps more damningly based on their unwillingness to communicate with their members, clearly the answer is no.

I certainly appreciate your position in all this and appreciate your voice and comments, however I stand by my position that they are an organization that does our industry only harm.

Regards

Rick Bateman
SEOWorkbook.com

[PPCPro]

The thread through the eyes of a commoner - a mute observer. No offence meant to anyone. But after reading this you might also sit back and question like I did: Can SEMPO or any other organization survive in our industry,whatever the motives be, whatever the work done, however noble the intentions.....

Statement1:Sensationalization - "hey guys I told you that-right?" spirit

Mike Grehan: Danny, I tip my hat to you again and happy to do it in public.
However, I think it's a very sad day for the industry when two of the leading figures in it (yourself and Chris Sherman) feel more comfortable in an arms-length relationship with that which would be an industry representative body

Statement2:Frustrations or concern:
RustyBrick- Which was why I was so surprised by the SEMPO meeting in San Jose. The members were there right? Maybe the stuffed the room with people who were told to be quiet and clap

Statement 3:"Whoa! what was that??" Feeling confused
I am not sure on this, but I checked out the IAB site and incorporation status, from what I can see, they filed as "Not for Profit" in New York. I read about their advertising and while they do say they give you a hot link on their website, from looking through the various member categories I am not seeing links or anything hierarchical like Sempo.

Statement4:"And again..." Feeling more confused... what was the thread???
I checked out, as much as possible today, the IAB, and looks like they run a totally different deal. They changed names from the Internet Advertising Bureau to the Interactive Advertising Bureau see:

http://www.workz.com/cgi-bin/gt/tpl...nt=1947&nav1=1&

Statement 5: "Attack on the flanks... reason??"
Jill Whalen:Unfortunately, I see that there's another whole problem with the SEMPO UK committee now

Statement 6:The supporter speak...
I think "some" people need to listen to Mike Grehan more often. This kissing up to others that some out there are doing is truly noticeable. You know who you are.

Statement 7:Encouragement ??
Look guys, SEMPO obviously has a lot of things to work out.

I'd love to see any one (or more) of you start your own org. so we can pick you apart too

Statement 8:A big finger pointed...
I am very sorry, I just do not feel these people started Sempo, at the onset, with the right intentions

Statement 9: An interesting statement ...hmm ..
Why can't anyone ever believe that there are people in this business (or any other business) that just do things because they want to for the greater good?

Statement 10: The most balanced statement in this thread and by the "subject of the discussion" himself
SEMPO will survive and thrive not because I'm involved, Chris is involved, Overture is involved, Jupiter is involved, Google is involved or any individual person or company, in my opinion. SEMPO will survive if its members want it to survive

Hoping for a more cheerful and promising future.

[ihelpyou]

The thread through the eyes of a commoner - a mute observer.

Hi PPCpro, I don't think you would be considered a "real commoner" however. You do SEM stuff right?
http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?p=12601#post12601

Can SEMPO or any other organization survive in our industry,whatever the motives be, whatever the work done, however noble the intentions.
Of course a good organization could do just that. The problem is, SEMPO refused to take advice from the first day.... March of 2003. That's a long time ago. All they have done up until today is try their very best to cover their tracks and be hinds. :)