SEO :: How do you separate truth from speculation?

[respree]

I'm curious what professional SEO's have to say on this issue.

As you were beginning your SEO career, no doubt you were reading forums such as this one trying to educate yourself.

You quickly realized there could be 100 different variables that were involved in getting good rankings. You also realized, very quickly, that there was no one source you could go to that would reveal how magic forumula worked.

You probably may even have read the same comments over and over again, permanently engraining in your minds that if 100 people say its "true," then it probably is. But do you really know for sure if something is true?

For example, let's take the statement "spiders ignore external CSS files." I've read it many times in many forums, but nobody says, "I believe this to be true because of [tests I've run, inside information from Google I received, other concrete/conclusive independent evidence, etc.]."

I'm not really in the SEO industry, but would like to learn from others who are.

How do you separate "truth" from "speculation?" ... or is it 'all' speculation?

[Jill Whalen]

Personally, I don't think that anyone should just blindly believe anyone in any forum, ever. (Including me.)

Take everything you read about SEO with a grain of salt. If stuff that certain people say sounds reasonable and plausible, then try it out for yourself and see what happens.

SEO is really something that you have to roll your sleeves up and get down and dirty with all by yourself, if you ask me.

[rcjordan]

>or is it 'all' speculation?

Actually, it's worse than that, there are outright attempts to MISinform ...to lead you away from some effective technique. It can come from the seo or even the se rep, but it's out there frequently enough --some forums more than others.

As for whom to believe, this often falls into 'specialist' categories now. I know guys who can tell me more than I want to know about every conceivable type of redirect but wouldn't know a css file if it bit him.

[projectphp]

How do you separate "truth" from "speculation?" ... or is it 'all' speculation?
The same way you do in real life: trust your instincts.

IMHO, so very many people say things they can't prove, but that don't matter either way. Copy versus links is one great example, so is the external CSS question.

My response to deciding starts with this criteria for caring: how will knowing the answer to XYZ make one more dollar than what I already know?

For example, if Google does spider external CSS files, it won't affect me one bit, so the speculation doesn't bother me. If, however, Google started parsing external javascript files, but not javascript on a page, that could potentially change many, many things, and things that make / improve revenue for many. Suddenly, JS roll over menus and other JavaScript based navigation is an OK idea, not SEO death. The truth in this case matters immensly, and it would be something I would test extensively myself.

So, my "truth" vs speculation radar starts with how much said truth matters to me, and the ammount I trust is inversely proportional (love that expression) to the ammount of revenue improvement knowing XYZ will lead to. In 9/10 cases, the truth or otherwise makes no difference whatsoever to what I do or recommend doing, so I trust a lot. In other cases, the proof may be almost absolute, but the risk / reward so high it requires independant verification.

[Nick W]

Nice post projectphp....

>wouldn't know a css file if it bit him.<

for me that's part of the whole equation. Compared to some of my peers im an SEO n00b, but I have other talents, and am happy to give advice/knowledge in those areas Im profficient in.

How does that help me seperate truth from speculation?

It doesnt of course but, you'll find that karma has a way of working on message boards like this and others, knowledgeable members (members with a little more credibility than a high post count) are more likely to share if it works both ways....

Personally, i have a little 'set' of forum posters i regularly watch becuase over the years i've grown to trust what they say, i dont have a written down list, but I know who they are... ;)

Nick

[projectphp]

Personally, i have a little 'set' of forum posters i regularly watch becuase over the years i've grown to trust what they say, i dont have a written down list, but I know who they are..
Which, IMHO is the very best form of reputation system ever invented :)

[seobook]

A good deal I came across in being asked to moderate a few forums I got to see the views of many people on various issues / ideas.

Certain people will tell you certain things work or "this is the way it should be" based primarily on their own belief system or business model.

Some people will want to mislead people (it makes sense for this to be a common technique from search engines since the value of their algorithm is inversely proportional to the ease with which you or I can manipulate the search results...search engine reps often talk in ideals vice referencing actual conditions).

Some people may be completely clueless and just remembers parts of speculative facts that others said in the past.

I may be all three of the above.

Over time I think intent shows clearer and clearer. You need to look beyond the post and look at the business model of the person posting it.

[Anthony Parsons]

How do you separate "truth" from "speculation?" ... or is it 'all' speculation?

Without sounding like self promotion, but this is exactly why I opened SEO Testing (http://www.seotesting.com) to achieve this exact thing. Begin providing some documented proof behind the forum comments. There is so much content, so much contradiction, with little actual documented proof to substantiate some common knowns.

IMO, use commonsense, and if it sounds too good to be true, then chances are it is, but not always. When in doubt, ask, and ask lots of people at different circles, or even better, test it for yourself.

[I, Brian]

Personally, I don't think that anyone should just blindly believe anyone in any forum, ever. (Including me.)

Take everything you read about SEO with a grain of salt. If stuff that certain people say sounds reasonable and plausible, then try it out for yourself and see what happens.

SEO is really something that you have to roll your sleeves up and get down and dirty with all by yourself, if you ask me. Yep - SEO is experience driven.

Of course, it's always worth listening to other people's experiences, but it's up to yourself to tease out the apparent truth of issues raised. And also be aware that sometimes the same event may have multiple interpretations.

[4eyes]

Most of the theories quoted on the more popular forums are just speculation.

The problem is that most of those happy to make claims, seem to be unable to understand that they haven't pinned down all the variables.

Poor logic prevails
eg. "I changed my H2 tag to H1 and I jumped 10 places"
....is not evidence that H1 is better, a thousand other sites may also have changed something.

It is VERY difficult to pin down all the variables, the best that most can hope for is to spot trends and general patterns and approach changes with caution.

Those that have built a range of comprehensive test sites designed to pin down as many variables as possible are extremely unlikely to share this information.

So, as previous posters suggest, trust nothing, test everything that matters, and beware of posters making definitive statements.

[Jill Whalen]

As a follow up to my post, I was talking about someone new to SEO and new to forums, etc.

Most definitely after awhile you will easily learn who you can trust and who you can't. Part of that will come from your own tests, and who gave you the right info. Part will just come from getting to know the people on the forums a little bit better.

But it's hard to make that judgement until you've been an active participant in any given forum for awhile.

There are many who can talk a good game, but that doesn't mean they have a lot of experience.

Generally, I don't believe that most who post on forums are out to try to trick or deceive anyone, and most genuinely like to help others. The problem is that some believe their way is the only way, which is just silly because we all know that there's more than one way to skin the SEO cat.

I would suggest that you find people who seem to make the most sense to you personally, and then try out their methods and see how they work for you. You'll want to be sure that you're comfortable carrying out whatever methods are being recommended, and also that you have the required skills.

[I, Brian]

Perhaps another point to add would be that different people have different SEO specialities.

For example, Jill above is considered very much the expert of on-page SEM. Other specialities might include keyword selection, link building, doorways and cloaking, as well as others who have a deep mathemathical understanding of how search engine algo work in the first place. All can offer very important advice on their specialist areas, and it helps to get an idea of who specialises in what as to what context you put their comments in.

Of course, there is over-enthusiasm to help, and I'm sure I've been there myself. Perhaps I'm still there. :)

Ultimately, SEO is a dynamic industry with a constant learning curve.

[St0n3y]

I think it is important to re-iterate what some have said above, that there are so many variables in play that it is impossible to point to any single element and say that is a recipe for success. One SEO may employ variable group "A", while another SEO employs variable group "B". Still a third employs Variable group "C" which uses some from group "A" and "B". All may see success.

There are, however, some definitive techniques that no longer work or are less affective than they once were.

It really all boils down to experience, success, testing, and learning. Pretty simple! ;)

[sugarrae]

You believe no one. You simply listen and then test it for yourself. Then you believe your results. I have met several of those whose instincts I trust and as Nick said, I know whose advice I will probably find to be correct. But, I never take anything as a given.

And, as mentioned, not everyone is a speciliast in some areas. I know a guy making a bundle in PPC who doesn't know how to alter his title tag. On PPC, I'd be likely to listen to him, on SEO, no way.

Basically, after some time, I know whose advice or theories to test first - but I always test it for myself before I can invest 100% belief in something.

[respree]

Thanks for the input and great discussion so far.

Again, I speak from a perspective that it outside the SEO industry and, for my own benefit, wish to learn more.

It seems like "truth," in the context being discussed, is really subjective - which in the real world, it is not. To believe something to be true does not necessarily make it so. I'm hearing trust your instincts and listen closely to the words of those you respect and are highly regarded in a particular field of expertise. But how does that translate into becoming a "fact-based" conclusion? Emphasis on the words, "fact-based." Of course, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but am also curious in know the answer to this.

Another thing that struck me as being very odd were so many statements of "test for yourself," and come to your own "truth." Is the SEO industry so secretive and is the market so small that SEO's do not share their tests and conclusions with other colleagues? In my opening post, someone in the world has undoubtedly run the test of:

1. I've monitored the last 100 visits from each of the major search engines
2. Not a single one have accessed my external .css file
3. Conclusion: spiders do not index external css files
4. I'm sharing this "truth" with the world

Yet, I can't find a single trace of someone publishing something like this.

Why does it seem that a continual "reinvention of the the wheel," so to speak, needs to be repeated over and over again (at a personal level) to separate truth from speculation?

Thanks again, for sharing your experiences.

[Jeremy_Goodrich]

>>>Why does it seem that a continual "reinvention of the the wheel," so to speak, needs to be repeated over and over again to separate truth from speculation?

Read enough forum posts, over enough years of practicing SEO - work at enough firms to be sick of working for "search engine marketing firms" and trust me - you'll see perpetual reinvention of the wheel ;)

There's no way to know, a priori, if a person replying to or posting stuff about SEO what they know, don't know, wish they knew, or actually believe - and in the end, it's about trust. Over the years, you'll start to trust some folks, discard others, etc.

>>>misinformation

Sad, but true - even worse, imho, is folks that optimize one site, change two things, and then go posting all over forums the "authority" of their convictions, irregardless of the fact that across verticals, things don't always work the same.

[rcjordan]

>share

We don't seem to share much. Sure, you'll find surface-level stuff like title tags and backlinks bandied about publicly, but even among very, very tightly-knit private groups of seors it's become almost a code of conduct not to ask for too many details, at least not of the whole group. You arrive at your conclusions, put them up for review, and sort of wait to see if anyone from your good-ol-boy network taps you on the shoulder and confirms or points you elsewhere.

[rustybrick]

That is why its important to have SEOs that do not practice SEO involved here. :)

How does that read as a sentence. ;)

[seobook]

>share

We don't seem to share much. Sure, you'll find surface-level stuff like title tags and backlinks bandied about publicly, but even among very, very tightly-knit private groups of seors it's become almost a code of conduct not to ask for too many details, at least not of the whole group. You arrive at your conclusions, put them up for review, and sort of wait to see if anyone from your good-ol-boy network taps you on the shoulder and confirms or points you elsewhere.

that is a point many people fail to realize. SEO works because it provides a competitive advantage. certain things worth thousands of dollars are available nearly free. if these ideas become replicated and saturated they no longer possess that same value.

you can go over most stuff, but those tracking specific percentages and numbers and those finding the PR9 link for a one time $20 fee (not that I have done this - I am still hunting...) are not likely to reveal all sources.

[mivox]

Is the SEO industry so secretive and is the market so small that SEO's do not share their tests and conclusions with other colleagues?

Yes. :)
<added>
(Yes=Industry is so secretive... market is not so small tho'.)
</added>

Some people may share very general 'tests', and I have heard a lot of people phrase their 'facts' like, "In the X years I've been using external CSS, I've never seen an SE spider request my CSS pages," but rarely as rigidly as, "I performed X experiment and saw Y results."

But as a general rule any 'secrets' that really made a huge positive difference in a professional SEO's site performance will only be shared with a handful of close friends, if anyone.

[lots0]

...for my own benefit, wish to learn more. That is normal human behavior, wanting to benefit from knowledge. It is also common human behavior to be secretive about knowledge that advances your position in society.

It seems like "truth," in the context being discussed, is really subjective - which in the real world, it is not.Ohhh, I disagree, in the real world “truth” is always subjective. Your “truth” may or may not be my “truth” and vice versa.

Is the SEO industry so secretive and is the market so small that SEO's do not share their tests and conclusions with other colleagues? Let me ask you this; Why should I (or any professional SEO) just give someone that I don’t know (you) the information and knowledge that I have spent years and tens of thousands of dollars acquiring? This is the same information that I charge my clients $150.00 USD an hour for?

My “colleagues” do not ask me share my hard earned knowledge, they offer to pay for it. The only people that ask me to “freely” share my hard earned knowledge are the people that are unwilling to pay for it and unwilling to do the actual work required to gain the knowledge.

So I agree, you should “go test yourself”. ;)

[rcjordan]

>How does that read as a sentence.

Took me 3 tries, RB, still not sure, hhh!

By practice, I assume you mean 'have clients.' It's been my experience that one of the first things successful seors do is go quiet. In fact, we sometimes joke about who's making money based upon how they suddenly drop out of sight. And, they also tend to drop their clients. So this isn't likely to be a fertile source of cutting edge seo posts in webmaster forums.

>certain things worth thousands of dollars are available nearly free. if these ideas become replicated and saturated they no longer possess that same value.

That's why I think the days of deeply analytical forums for general membership (free or paid) are over. There was a time when seo was small enough, exclusive enough that no one (on either side of the serp) really worried too much about who read what. That has changed. Whole vertical markets are being altered by seo now. SEO forums, IMHO, are now mostly for the routine stuff --and to troll for clients.

[seobook]

and to troll for clients.
<joking>just a friendly reminder to all about my current discount</joking>

[rustybrick]

Fine, I'll write english. ;)

What I am saying is that if you do not offer SEO Services, then you really do not mind giving up what knowledge you have. Of course its a bit of a catch 22, if you dont do SEO, you dont know SEO. But there are some who cross that line, I think.

[sugarrae]

"are highly regarded in a particular field"

Smoke and mirrors sometimes. Never let a majority rule your opinion of someone's knowledge or lack thereof. I've met some "highly regardeds" who I would never highly regard LOL.

"so sceretive"

Damn skippy. Sharing general or "widely known" information is one thing. But, why should I spend five weeks learning how to do something and then share it with a message board so they can reap the benefits of my work and make the tactic so saturated that it doesn't even work anymore. No thanks. The person who shared with me what it took five weeks for THEM to learn may get that secret, but not a general slew of people I have no connection with. It's like a game. If you played a sport and had an edge, would you teach everyone else how to obtain that edge? Certainly not.

SEO is more like a game as far as your relationships with other SEO's go. We all shake hands and tell each other good game when it's all said and done, but, we certainly respect them as what they are - competition, during the game. ;)

[sugarrae]

"if you do not offer SEO Services"

Can't agree. I don't take on clients. I AM my client. And I still treat it in high regard. Course, I'm not a "guru" either - I would be more likely to say that if you currently don't practice SEO - for yourself or clients or whatever - then you're probably willing to give the farm away - but, if you're not "practicing" - within six months, its simply an old dilapidated farm that isn't producing anything ;).

[seobook]

What I am saying is that if you do not offer SEO Services, then you really do not mind giving up what knowledge you have.
not true. you (or your clients) likely have some competitors somewhere who could benefit from your knowledge. many of those competitors are likely not sharing their competitive advantages with you for free. ...why should they?

Of course its a bit of a catch 22, if you dont do SEO, you dont know SEO. But there are some who cross that line, I think.
there are a ton of talented people who "don't do SEO" who likely do SEO far better than most people claiming to be SEO.

[respree]

Fascinating discussion. Let's keep going! :)

If one runs any particular test, spends a lot of time on it, I can wholeheartedly support and respect one's decision not to publish it. But, does everyone feel this way?

Is the ultimate fear that publishing of any given "truth" has the potential for becoming so saturated that it may cause major search engines to change the way they work or they will no longer have a competitive advantage over other SEO's?

On the surface, it appears the answer to this question is or at least, should be, 'no', given the hundreds of millions of websites out there (and the corresponding amount of potential SEO customers). Add to that, that this hypothetical test is but one of 100 variables, and it 'seems' like there would be nothing to fear, but perhaps I'm missing something.

[mivox]

this hypothetical test is but one of 100 variables, and it 'seems' like there would be nothing to fear, but perhaps I'm missing something.

That's pretty much what I said in my earlier post... people DO say things like, "In X time of using this technique, I have not seen the search engines do Y about it," but that's about as specific as you'll get in a public forum.

People will discuss 'general' techniques, but not their 'hot tip' trade secrets.

[rcjordan]

>it may cause major search engines to change the way they work or they will no longer have a competitive advantage over other SEO's?

I've seen both happen.

<added>
I've also seen seors try to expose a technique that they do not want to use themselves, but know it to be effective. ********, for example.

[seobook]

>it may cause major search engines to change the way they work or they will no longer have a competitive advantage over other SEO's?

I've seen both happen.

<added>
I've also seen seors try to expose a technique that they do not want to use themselves, but know it to be effective. ********, for example.
part of your post is cloaked ;)

[rustybrick]

Your right, I am sorry. I should have said, if you do not offer SEO services AND you do not have your own sites that you try to rank well. This is a great thread, please continue without my posts being a distraction. I apologize.

[rcjordan]

>cloaked

No, cloaking would be in LM's post. I just greeked it out, otherwise I'd be exposing it (though it's really widely known). Besides, ****man might be lurking and he'd burn my house down, hhh!

Don't apologize, RB, your post played fine.

[Buddha]

So do you think the SEO conferences are the best way to meet people that actually reveal trade secrets after getting drunk?

Personally, I don't publish trade secrets out in the open, but I wouldn't mind exchanging trade secrets w/ another SEOer if I felt the knowlege gained was worth the secrets shared.

[sugarrae]

"ultimate fear that publishing of any given "truth" has the potential for becoming so saturated"

Well, I don't know if ultimate fear would be the phrase I would use. I look at it as more of an I earned it, so they should too. I'm not talking basics (use a title tag, anchor text, links, etc) but rather as mivox put it, hot tips. I think in most SEO forums, that a general direction is given rather than a "how to".

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime. You can tell someone how to rank in the current algo's - but if they don't learn to figure out the tricks of the trade for themselves, what will they do when the algo changes?

Also, today's "hot tips" can turn into tomorrow's "spam" techniques. Why blurt from the rooftops lesser known exploitations of the algo so that the SE can drop back to the old "well, now we're calling that spam" technique when they decide it's something they don't want to or can't combat in other ways?

[sugarrae]

"actually reveal trade secrets after getting drunk?"

I assure you, this is rarely the case. It's actually about forging friendships and relationships at the conferences. Meeting people face to face, having down to earth discussions - feeling out who can be trusted.

I've never seen a pro get drunk and start blabbing their "hot tips" (I'm going to beat that term to death mivox ;)). So, no, that wouldn't be what I would suggest anyway.

Attend the conferences and network. Make friends, not try to ply someone when you think their guard is down ;). Unless it's an SE rep of course. That's different ;).

[rcjordan]

(Note to admin/moderator: I swear I did not put Buddha up to that. I was trying to be good.)

>drunk

Considering that you are associating with some of the most results-oriented webmasters in the world, sobriety is more than a virtue at seo conferences. (Let's not discuss that little incident with the Maker's Mark, OK?) But, yes, eyeball-to-eyeball works best for me.

[mivox]

(I'm going to beat that term to death mivox ;) )

lol... go right ahead!

Re: drunken blabbing
Another thing I mentioned earlier: "But as a general rule any 'secrets'... [ed: or "hot tips" for chrisnrae's benefit ;) ] ...will only be shared with a handful of close friends, if anyone."

The benefit of a networking event is in meeting people who later become close friends. ;)

[projectphp]

If one runs any particular test, spends a lot of time on it, I can wholeheartedly support and respect one's decision not to publish it. But, does everyone feel this way?
Part of the problem is trust. Do I really believe your conclusions? Was the methodology sound, e.g. was the sample size large enough, do I have access to view your log files, did you use multiple servers o different IP addresses and C blocks etc etc. And after all that, does the "truth" of your research matter?

SEO is a transient "thing" in which yesterday's test wont prove true today, or sometimes even this afternoon / right now on a different datacentre. This makes "truth", in an absolute sense, not so much objective but transient. It also makes scientific methodology and reasoning the wrong tool to use, as it is nimpossible to accurately isolate any one element.

Also, SEO isn't a research endeavour, its a practical pursuit in which the goal is quite clear: improving profitability / revenue for a site. Given such an understanding, truth about many issues is irrelevant. In fact, you can be drastically wrong and still help improve a business's bottom line.

So, IMHO, given all of this, truth is vital, but there are key elements that people need top know, and that probably stops @ "Use the words your customers use when they search".

[Buddha]

Having attended my first conference at Orlando, I found that the veteren SEOers already know eachother and tend to stay in cliques.

For someone that hasn't met all of you before, it can be a little intimidating approaching a group of veteren mods. How do I get in the inner circle? Is it my clothes? Is it my knowledge? Is it my hat? :confused:

[Anthony Parsons]

As the founder of seotesting.com and a current practising SEM, I will share my prospective on industry secrets. Industry secrets are not secret! The information is there, but the information is only one aspect of it, the practical experience to know what works where is the real secret too it, not the information.

SEO is no different from being a motor mechanic. All motor mechanics go to school, learn the same basic content, then go and practice that knowledge. From that practice, they gain experience and begin to experiment what works best between different engines. All motor engines are different, even though they work or same or similar basic principles. SEO is exactly the same. The knowledge is in every single forum, but the experience is the tricky part that takes time. You can not teach experience in a forum, you can only teach knowledge.

To further expand. To teach experience, you need to be sitting in a one on one personal experience, or even over phone or instant messenger. You both need to be looking at the same thing, then use your experience to apply the known knowledge to the job at hand. We all know that each search engine is different, though work of the same basic principles. The same applies to each website. They all contain the same basic fundamentals, though are individually unique. Applying the knowledge + experience is what makes a website effective. People come in to the forums, read read and read some more, then think they are just going to take that and well la, poof, wave the magic wand and it worked. Then they realize that everything "we" told them, did not work as expected. Why? Because they didn't have that experience behind them to apply the required aspects. They just applied everything, most likely over or under optimized, and achieve little or went backwards.

This is what stuffs this industry with people who do strike it lucky, get the right combination by luck, then think they can replicate it and open their own SEO business. Hence the industry gets tarnished and prospects all take a backward step towards even more caution.

You can read forums all day, you can write books about what you read, but without some deal of practical experience applying that knowledge, then your efforts are wasted. You can't teach, if you haven't done. I used to see it all the time within the electrical industry. Egg head engineers, all brains, no experience. They could mathematically condure just about any electrical circuitry, but couldn't get the theory to work in practice because they lacked that actual experience.

The moral to the story is, "There is no industry secrets as such, it is experience that is the secret, and people just tend to forget that and look for other excuses."

[sugarrae]

"I get in the inner circle? Is it my clothes? Is it my knowledge? Is it my hat?"

Seriously, you can't be "shy" at these things. Intro yourself, don't do it while handing out your business card and never start the conversation off with "what industries are you in?" If that fails, a few beers in the hand is an invite not many can refuse ;).

[seobook]

Having attended my first conference at Orlando, I found that the veteren SEOers already know eachother and tend to stay in cliques.

For someone that hasn't met all of you before, it can be a little intimidating approaching a group of veteren mods. How do I get in the inner circle? Is it my clothes? Is it my knowledge? Is it my hat? :confused:

I tend to sit away from everybody. the guy in the back of the room. the guy in the corner eating lunch by himself.

if you want to meet people don't be that guy.

sit in the front row. eat at a table right in the middle, etc.

that way you will likely run into people or people may just sit next to you...and since you were already there you do not need to do all the ice breaking.

[rcjordan]

> intimidating

That's not the first time I've heard that. Can't understand why, exactly ...they're all nice guys/gals.

>how

First of all, understand that some of us have been posting together for quite a while, and across many forums. Oilman & I 'met' over on Wilson's board in '97 or '98, for example. Hell, we were even banned at the same time over there, hhh! So, yes, there is are some cliques that have developed.

It's not really the hat color, though that's part of it, because I know of solid whitehats that feel comfortable traveling and hanging out with the more results-oriented ('blackhat' seems to be such a negative term nowadays) group.

It's simply earning trust. For those I can speak for, this basically means you don't go tattling, bragging, whining, or fawning on boards. If you're given a tidbit in confidence, you KEEP it in confidence. Typically, you get to know someone and let them know more details about what you do --don't necessarily expect them to reciprocate. They might be impressed enough to bring up your nick ...that's how it starts.

[searchengineblog.com]

results-oriented

<laughs>Love it!

The best information about SEM isn't published on the internet. It comes over the telephone. It's face-to-face. One-to one. A trust thing.

The true demigods exist well below radar, or they are masters of disguise. Try catch 'em when they surface and plaster them with drinks.

[seobook]

Try catch 'em when they surface and plaster them with drinks.
they are easy targets after 26 hour flights.

[rustybrick]

There is also something nice about meeting forum members at these conferences. Its always very interesting to put a face and real voice (that you can hear) to the posts. People open up more, you can earn greater trust and even more so, you can earn a deeper respect.

This is based on my interactions at conferences. After meeting many people, I often chat with them in a private setting, sometimes on a daily basis.

I agree, that you learn a lot more from knowing people outside the forums.

And as Peter (searchengineblog) said, a few drinks don't hurt. But I don't take advantage of people's weaknesses. ;)

[MrMackin]

>It's simply earning trust.

New ideas are simply not shared in an open fora.

[mivox]

Smaller conferences are a great place to get to know people... keep an eye on SEO forums for announcements of 'non-mainstream' gatherings. In most cases everyone is a little more relaxed and approachable in groups of less than 500+ people. ;)

Also, be forward about getting to know people while you're online. That way, when you go to a conference and introduce yourself by nickname, they'll remember who you are and you'll have things to talk about.

[4eyes]

It can be difficult getting to know people at the larger conferences.

If there are too many people you can end up spreading yourself too thinly.

You will probably already have an idea of which people you are likely to 'get on with' from your activities on the forums - make a note of the nicks before you go and seek them out.

At some stage of the conference everyone needs a couple of hours away from the hubub, so get a group together and suggest going to eat somewhere away from the mob. Groups of 5-10 work really well. These smaller breakout groups are where the good stuff happens for me.

[Marcia]

A lot of trust is based on just plain gut-level instinct, and that's a pretty reliable barometer.

[donut]

Everyone is going on the assumption that no one shares real information in order to keep the money-maiking secret to themselves... I say there is a higher goal.

Sure, you can keep a newfound technique to yourself and help whatever clients you can get ahold of making money for them or yourself.

But broadcasting your findings makes you a hero, a leader, someone who must know what they are doing and THAT attracts attention, links, clients and powerful friends who may also send you business.

There are social and financial benefits to be the first to find and publish a new technique or finding; just ask some of the esteemed members here how they became "so popular". :D