What SEO Guarantees Do You Offer?

[Anthony Parsons]

I am writing a new page for my site about guarantee's, and thought to myself, "this really needs to be voiced at SEW". I know this type of question has been raised at HR and so forth, but I couldn't find it here. So here goes.


Do you guarantee your services or not?
If not, why not? If so, why so?
What sort of guarantee?


Me!

#1 Yes, I do provide a guarantee on my services.
#2 Because I am very confident in my own ability to achieve what I say I will achieve.
#3 Top 20 results for 80% minimum of the agreed terms in Google, Yahoo and MSN each. Money back on service charge, excluding any third party costs, such as directory inclusions, etc.

************************************************** **

Why am I asking? Because I am curious to see what peoples thoughts are on this subject and the reasons behind their thoughts. So many people just say, "No, you cannot guarantee something you do not control". What rubbish. Why do most say this? Because they read it from someone else, so they just followed suit and adopted that approach. Monkey see, monkey do. Too many sheep IMO.

What is a guarantee? Its a formal assurance that certain conditions will be fulfilled.

So I don't understand how people cannot offer one. What gets me more, is that some only deal with non-competitive terms and still don't offer a guarantee, then try and stuff it down others throats in an attempt to make it a correct practice. Last time I looked, business was about the definition of a guarantee.

We are all customers every day, so what do you look for when you purchase items, especially expensive items or services? I know I look for quality and a guarantee that I am going to get my monies worth. I want to be able to exchange the product if required, get a refund if needed or even be issued a certificate for credit. Some people say, you cannot guarantee what you don't know (ie. the search engine changing their algorithm). What about a car manufacturer? Do they know if your going to drive a brand new car out the drive way, rev the engine excessively until it blows up in the first month and then claim another under warranty? No. They take the risk though to provide that guarantee anyway.

Does a manufacturer know if a toy is going to turn faulty between the factory and the shop? No, but they provide a guarantee anyway. Why? To assure the customer that their money is safe. If you employ an accountant and they miss something or the tax ruling change and your fined, did they do their job? No. Regardless whether something changed, it is their job to ensure they remain current and adapt to changing circumstances. That guarantee of assurance is once again present.

So why is it, that SEO's seem to sit on this side of things and offer no guarantee? Would you spend 10k without a guarantee. Honestly now. Hell no. You would want some sort of assurance that your investment was worth it. I am very interested to hear what people have to say on this matter, without the lame excuse you can't control the search engine algorithm. We all know that, and that's not an excuse as demonstrated with some examples above. I may well be missing something. I do remain cognisant that some are just not comfortable providing a guarantee. Honestly, to me that means you are not confident in your own abilities, but each to their own.

What do others have to say on this matter?

[K.S. Katz]

1) No, I don't place a guarantee on my services.
2) Because I'm an in-house SEO and if the boys upstairs didn't think that I was doing my job then I would be fired. :)
3) N/A

Upon the occasions that I've done freelance, I've never done a guarantee because a) it never came up or b) I think guarantees are worthless because they're so open-ended that in most cases the contractor would be able to get out of it. I prefer to let my previous work speak for itself and I offer a realistic view of what they're looking at in their marketplace.

That being said, I think Anthony that you have a very nice guarantee and applaud you for it.

[David Wallace]

Here is what I offer (copied from my site):

Keyword Selection - We guarantee to work diligently with you to select and target keywords that are not only relevant to your business but words that people are actually searching for. Some SEM companies may choose "non-competitive" keywords to make themselves look good by getting high rankings for them. The problem is that no one is searching for these words and therefore the client doesn't see the increase in traffic they had hoped for.

Not only will we select and target keywords that will bring an increase in traffic, we will continually review those words to ensure that they remain best words to target.

SEO Strategy - We guarantee to develop a complete and thorough search engine optimization strategy for your web site. We will work to optimize all the vital areas of your site that search engines consider in their ranking algorithms. We promise not resort to spam techniques such as doorway pages, page cloaking, link farms and the like that could end up getting your web site penalized and even banned by search engines. Our optimization strategy will be geared towards long term success.

Ongoing Maintenance - We guarantee to provide ongoing campaign maintenance to ensure that you maintain top positioning in the SERPs as well as experience a continuous and steady flow of traffic and as such, earn a good return on your investment. We will stay committed to the ongoing success of your campaign, making necessary adjustments and improvements along the way.

Customer Service - We guarantee the very best in customer service. We will answer the phone when you call. Your emails will be answered promptly, usually within 30 minutes of receiving them. Tasks such as campaign maintenance or modifications to your marketing strategy will be performed in a timely matter. In other words, you will be able to reach us when you need to. We continually receive praise on how quickly and efficiently we respond to customer inquiries. We are here to serve you. Therefore customer service is our number one priority.

If you are interested in guaranteed positioning and traffic, we can develop a paid search engine placement campaign utilizing programs such as Google AdWords, Overture Premium Listings and others. With these programs, we can maintain control over where and when you site appears. See Managed Programs for more information on these type of paid search engine marketing services.


So you can see it is more of a "service" guarantee than a guarantee of any positioning. If someone wants a guarantee in positioning, I would then make sure I could back up any failed SEO attempts with PPC. Besides search engine algos, there are still many things that can escape your control such as client abusing auto submit or auto rank checking programs, setting up other mirrored sites, making changes to their site and removing optimization, redesigning their sites, having webmaster perform updates, copying over changes you have made, etc., etc.

[I, Brian]

If I do full SEO, ranking targets will be guaranteed. That's what clients expect - that's what they are paying for.

If you cannot guarantee agree target rankings, then you simply should not be taking their cash, IMO.

Other SEO services have no guarantees, other than provision of service - such as the link building - the links will be built, and you can see where they are, etc.

[dannysullivan]

If you cannot guarantee agree target rankings, then you simply should not be taking their cash, IMO.
Well, there are lots of different models. Some people work on a performance basis, where they are paid as part of conversion. A particular ranking means nothing in that aspect -- what the traffic trend overall like long-term and the conversion.

Ranking guarantees can also be meaningless, if the client is clueless. I've seen so many online pitches where the guarantee is to be on a number of search engines that may include some hardly used, or for long, multiword terms that require little effort to get a ranking since they are so unique -- and likely to bring no traffic. This (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=466) was a recent breakdown on one such guarantee I did in another thread that highlights some of the problems.

Let me be clear that I'm in no way suggesting your guarantee works like this. In fact, you talk about "agree target rankings," which suggests you'll be working with your clients to figure out what terms make the most sense to get traffic and conversion. But for brand new people, seeking an SEM firm, just saying to look for a ranking guarantee isn't helpful because of the way it can be twisted to be meaningless.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

Personally I do not give ranking guarantees for a number of reasons. Some of the more important is that I do not think ranking have much value in itself and another is that there is no way to know what users in the target group actually get to see. If Google, Yahoo and MSN was to provide an accurate, and "legal", tool for this that would make some difference but I still do not think the value is in ranking. But that is just my opinion.

When I do work on performance basis it is always on either actual trafic or actions. And for that I do give guarantees: They only pay for results. However, I do not guarantee the end results. We sometimes make estimates and often set a lower limit - if that limit is not met within a set timeframe the deal is off.

However, most the work I do is consulting. People ask me to find out specific things, investigate issues, analyse websites and help work out strategies. In that process I am just a small piece and as such can not be held responsible alone for the results. Therefore I charge for time spend and give no guarantees on this kind of work - only that I do my very best and such.

[Anthony Parsons]

Uuummm..... That site seems to be down Danny! I wonder why? These type of sites, the hit and miss, the, "I got rankings for my own obscure non-searched terms in 12 months so I'm gonna open an SEO website" type, suck IMHO. These are the spammers, scammers and so forth that make it hard for legitimate, ethical businesses who are practising via their country / state business guidelines. O' and generally have a clue what they are doing!

The diversity of this industry, and the practices available to achieve / promote a website obviously vary according to circumstance and thus warrant particular guarantee's applicable to their service and a whole bunch of good commonsense. Like honestly, there is no way in hell would I provide my guarantee if the owner touches something, adjusts the site during the contracted period or the like, not a chance. These are not things that should be hidden, but simply state the facts up front. Wack, here it is. You do this whilst I'm doing that and you void your warranty for that page/s. People who work within the SEM industry in such practices as PPC or link building only, well, you could obviously not provide a ranking guarantee, but still a service guarantee.

I think this needs to be brought out, as we can see already, most are offering some guarantee. The reason I think this needs much clarification and input from the industry is that some are just not offering guarantee's at all, because they are confused about what others in the industry are doing. Well, we all know they shouldn't follow, but that can sometimes be hard in an industry like this when you need to start off.

A startup SEO company contacted me recently in regard to how to start, how to get visible quickly, etc etc. Chatting away, something I asked was about guarantee's. This new business was launching providing no guarantee what so ever because the word in the forums is that you can't provide a guarantee for SEO / SEM services. It was at this point I began to lecture and advise differently to rethink their business strategy and approach. This is whats happening when people are saying, don't guarantee, don't guarantee! Again, monkey see, monkey do, and it needs to be voiced.

A good example I provided to this new company was reference PPC. They offered it, and with no guarantee. Why? I asked. "Because you can't guarantee PPC", was the answer. Who said that? That's what you here in the forums (General Speak)! I then went on to explain that they may want to reconsider. If I am spending a suitable amount on PPC with a company, then I would want some sort of service guarantee to ensure each title and description was written uniquely to capture the widest audience, the correct terms are captured and so forth. That is a guarantee. That is something you can advertise and market proudly that you standby and exercise in its full power.

This is very interesting to see the diversity of guarantee's that are coming out here. Thanks. I don't think its right or wrong, but as previously stated, up to each individual for what they feel comfortable with.

[greenleaves]

me

1) No, I don't place a guarantee on my services.
2) Because I'm an in-house general internet marketing guy (SEO/PPC/design/whatever) and if I wasn't being productive, I would look for a job where I could be.
3) N/A

[Jeff Martin]

If you cannot guarantee agree target rankings, then you simply should not be taking their cash, IMO.

IMO guaranteeing rankings is missing the mark. I think a guarantee in increased levels of traffic and conversion for relative terms is where the rubber meets the road. In the end all that the client cares about are:

#1 (mostly educated on all of our part) Is my risk level for the SEO techniques I approved at a level I can accept?
#2 Did I get the amount of relevant and qualified traffic I was guaranteed?
#3 Do I have the reporting (proof) of the success of the program?
#4 Did it result in me becoming more profitable?

[Greenkey]

Yes I am happy to offer guarantees.
When speaking to prospective clients they often have their own ideas of how to measure success. That might be a ranking position for search terms or it may be an increase in traffic or enquiries/sales.
I work with them to accept whatever they want their guarantee to be.
For example. company A wants a top 10 position for a string of keywords/phrases. I will advise them honestly if their keywords are realistic, most of the time they are. I then set aside a part of my fee for consultancy about 20% this is payable on completion of the 'blueprint' of the marketing plan. This is required as conceptually they could take this and do it themselves or give it to somebody else to do, so it holds my intellectual capital. Then make a plan of activities and the results to be expected at differing stages of the campaign for example quarterly. of the remaining fee, 50% is paid during stages/achievements so if I dont meet targets I dont get paid. at the end of the project the remaining 50% of the remainder is released. Effectively I get paid 20% of my total fee.
all other fees have to be earned. This makes me highly focused on achieving results.

The problems with this model are.
1. defering 40% of payment until the end is a pretty big risk for 2 reasons. firstly the company may try to weasel out of final payment, so you need a very clear written statement of achievements and goals signed off at each stage. Secondly what if they are out of business in 6-12 months.

2. you are very much at the mercy of changing search criteria when your fees are spread over a long period of time.

I have to say though that this model is attractive to the customers.

[Greenkey]

One further point.

There is great difficulty in guaranteeing increase in sales.
With pure SEO all you are doing is getting people to the site which is part of a marketing process.
Actually converting enquiries to sales not only may have a long lead time especially for the sale of services but also is part of the sales process of the organisation. Having your fees being held to ransom because their sales process is no good is a tough situation to swallow.

[NFFC]

>What SEO Guarantees Do You Offer?

None, never have never will. [bear in mind I'm an ex-SEO and not a particularly successful one at that].

To me there are two business models worth pursuing, charge for traffic and charge for knowledge.

Charging for traffic is an excellent way to go [its not for me, you have to do reports and stuff] and will have the edge in earnings if the company is set up right. Our own makemetop pretty much lays it out here http://www.searchengineblog.com/barry-makemetop.htm

Myself I prefer the solicitor [lawyer] model. I can't guarantee anything but look at my past cases and make your own judgement. I will charge you X and promise to do my best, thats all you get.

Being totally honest I feel that those "SEO's" who offer a guarantee are doing the profession a disservice. You either charge for traffic or you charge for expertise. If you are charging for expertise you stand or fall on your past work, it is not a profession that I think should be offering guarantees, nor summer specials, nor buy now get 10% off.

We are not in the used car game [well some of us are I suppose :)], we are in the lawyer game. Charge accordingly and make the client aware that all you can do is your best, its their judgement whether your best is good enough.

IMHO.

[Incubator]

>
Myself I prefer the solicitor [lawyer] model. I can't guarantee anything but look at my past cases and make your own judgement. I will charge you X and promise to do my best, thats all you get.



Well said, we have used that motto from inset of our company

Cheers


WC

[Anthony Parsons]

That is quite an excellent insight NFFC. If you look at a search engine in the same eyes as looking upon a judge within a court, we are the lawyers stating our case to the judge (search engine) to make up their minds (algorithm) and produce the relevant result according to their decision (analysis) and our input (website).

At the end of the day though, if I was sitting here with 5k in hand, my 20 page website and the choice of two SEO's, one that offers some sort of satisfaction guarantee, ranking guarantee or marketing exposure guarantee, and the other that just offers the best they can do, I would be placing my money with the one that offered a money back guarantee if they do not succeed to their set expectations. (This being two like reputable firms)

Though, keeping in mind we all offer unique strategies, and quite honestly, we all look for different things within a business service when even we want to employ someone. If we all weren't indifferent, customers would be limited in their comfort zone on whom to employ.

Something Greenkey also mentioned that rings a bell just the other day actually;

When speaking to prospective clients they often have their own ideas of how to measure success.

I sent a client a proposal in which one question they asked was the measure of analysis to each of the desired terms targeted. I had to "add" to my existing warranty and provide them another reassurance (guarantee) that I could capture the target market, and then proceeded to provide documentary evidence from previous cases. This shows that we have to sometimes meet our clients expectations beyond our own abilities, guarantee's and reassurances, providing your comfortable doing this. Me being me, if a client is way out in fairy land and wants something that I know is just stupidity, then they are going to be told this and they can keep their money. Customers need to have trust in their employment choices to some extent.

[Incubator]

....some sort of satisfaction guarantee, ranking guarantee or marketing exposure guarantee, and the other that just offers the best they can do, I would be placing my money ......


.
Offering just "the best they can do " is over simplifying it.

Presentations and showing facts base upon case study histories is a step further, then saying "we'll try". The only way of showing success is with past successful results within the clients indusrty, just because what we did last year doesnt neccessarily mean it will work this time around, with the speed and changes that are happening on the SE's all the time, any guarantee is set up to be broken depending on how the clients expectations are meet

My 2 cents

Cheers

WC

[Chris_D]

Top 20 results for 80% minimum of the agreed terms in Google, Yahoo and MSN each. Money back on service charge...

Anthony - how long does your 'guarantee' last for?

Is your guarantee satisfied the first time the client appears in Google, Yahoo, or MSN? Or is it for one week of stable ranking at that position? Or is for a month? a quarter? forever? What?

How would (not 'did' - would) your guarantee deal with Florida? How would it deal with the next update? How would it deal with an extended DDoS attack on your client's sites?

Because thats the issue. You you may have 'faith' in your own ability. We all do. But none of us have control over the rest of the web, and none of us even know when things outside of your control will change.

The whole concept of the 'web' means no one can guarantee anything. Think about it.

BTW - Overture PPC guarantees are easy - you can always guarantee that the client will rank number 1*

* subject to budget.

[Anthony Parsons]

Anthony - how long does your 'guarantee' last for?

Is your guarantee satisfied the first time the client appears in Google, Yahoo, or MSN? Or is it for one week of stable ranking at that position? Or is for a month? a quarter? forever? What?

The duration of the contracted period. If the contract is for 3, 6 or 12 months, dependant upon the work, then at the end of that period, all work is to be satisfied in accordance with the contractual agreement.

How would (not 'did' - would) your guarantee deal with Florida? How would it deal with the next update? How would it deal with an extended DDoS attack on your client's sites?

Because thats the issue. You you may have 'faith' in your own ability. We all do. But none of us have control over the rest of the web, and none of us even know when things outside of your control will change.

That's the risk in providing an assurance. I don't provide a money back guarantee on directory submissions etc. That is clearly stated. I don't guarantee server errors or extended errors. This just happened too me recently where nothing could get this site ranking. I moved the site at my expense to another server, provided the site and demonstrated to the customer what the problem was. The cost of $50 for hosting vs. refunding thousands is marginal IMO. Because I don't guarantee errors, and the client knew about that, but didn't want to believe me, that is why I moved it at my expense. The client was more than happy to refund me the cost and apologise for a crappy host server.

The whole concept of the 'web' means no one can guarantee anything. Think about it.

Ok Chris, you being Australian, would you go and buy a new commodore at $40k without a guarantee? No. Why? The car is out of the manufactures ability of knowing what is best for the car! The manufacturer can't see whether your abusing the car or not. But they gladly replace the differential that broke whilst you or your son where doing a burnout in it. As long as they can't find evidence a burnout was done to break the diff, they are going to replace it. Why? Customer assurance. Why is the web any different. Every product and service that we know today that have guarantee's are outside of the manufacturer's / service providers control, but yet they provide a guarantee.

Lets go online now. ISP's! They provide you a service guarantee that you will have x, y and z. All electronic online services and connections. Why? Customer assurance again. Why is it good enough for you to expect a guarantee from your ISP when you pay them, but not provide some type of assurance (guarantee) for your online services? This is what gets me about people flat out say, "no guarantee's".

I absolutely respect everyone's decision how they run their business model, and am not trying to stuff guarantee's down your throat or saying you "must" guarantee, but simply find out what sort of guarantee's are on offer, and if not, why not. Some people are saying flat out "no guarantee for online services". Fine, so what if your ISP no longer provides you an uptime guarantee? What if your server host no longer provides your an uptime guarantee? Are you going to use them or go somewhere that does provide an uptime guarantee? Interesting now isn't it when the shoes on the other foot. Two electronic web service that both offer guarantee's. So why can't marketers. Neither web hosts or ISP's know if a worm is about to hit, they don't know if lightning is about to take out their main stack.....the list is endless. They can take adequate means to protect these areas, but cannot completely assure them. What they do do though, is take the risk to benefit their customers.

BTW - Overture PPC guarantees are easy - you can always guarantee that the client will rank number 1*

* subject to budget.

:)

Even PPC required some sort of service guarantee. What if your client is paying $5 a click for a term that you have poorly written or describe that is costing the client either too many non-relevant clicks or not enough for the term because you have just used any old title and description. That is the first thing people see and make their decision to click upon it or go to the next. Ranking guarantee is not applicable with the PPC model, but a service guarantee most definately should be used. Otherwise you could just take my $$$, write absolute crap and I get little conversion, clickthrough or too much at the wrong times...etc.

************************************************** ******

I'm by no means saying that people need to offer a ranking guarantee. I do, but that's the way I run my business. Some do, some offer satisfaction and service guarantee's and then some nothing at all. These other electronic services offer guarantee's. What makes marketing so different?

A #1 guarantee is generally rubbish because 99.9% off the time they are either utilising the PPC model in a deceptive manner to the client or for some obscure long term that isn't even searched. That's the norm, so that is what brings everyone else down. What if someone was willing to legitimately offer #1 guarantee's for their work? Does that make them unprofessional or unethical if they are achieving them within the guidelines of the search engines? I think not. Are you going to pay a fortune to have that guarantee? Yes you are. Another difference between the other 99.9% who offer some rubbish like, #1 guaranteed for $99 a month. We all know that is marketed in such a way to produce unprofessional results and give a client a sense of false achievement.

My ranking guarantee is there for that assurance. My guarantee's extend into the marketing and conversion area, but I don't go near them too much because IMHO, you have less control now over whether someone is going to purchase than obtaining a ranking. You can coach a website to a top position, you cannot coach the user to actually buying. Think about that?

[seomike]

Our guarantees are simple if we don't perform you don't pay :)

You get x amount of top rankings (page 1 and 2) for x amount a month. We guarantee rankings for your theme groups not any specific keyword.

So we can say we'll give you 500 top rankings. Clients love it because we get tackle all the relavant terms. Best way to do it IMHO because most of the conversions end up coming from more general terms and not the broad 1 - 2 word keywords

[Greenkey]

Personally I dont agree with this model of top rankings for X fee per month, it implies 2 very serious things.

Firstly when the client stops paying the ranking stops. If their website was truely optimised for keywords/terms then the seo company should be able to walk away after completing their work and the site will still continue to get good placement with minimal maintenance (at least for a reasonable time). The pay monthly model suggests that the optimisation is being done somewhere else not on the clients website, and can be turned off at any time effectively holding the client to ransom. What has probably happened is that the website has had a few keywords added and the keyword density measured, maybe even a smattering of copy writing. Then a large amount of link building is done under the control of the seo company and hidden pages are written that look attractive to search engines, and any hits they get are re directed to the 'real pages'.
By definition if this is the case then the clients website has not been fully optimised. When a client pays to have THEIR web pages optimised it should represent a marketing investment in their business. If it can be switched off where is their investment? At best they are buying advertising through search positioning. At worst they havent bought what they think they have.

Secondly and perhaps more sinister when the client stops paying any off page optimisation is reused/resold to their competitors.

[Chris Boggs]

funny I was just writing about this topic in another forum (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=1307&page=2&pp=20)

We are basing promises (not guarantees) purely on difficulty of keywords chosen to target. Often we will suggest targeting more competitive keywords with PPC and using SEO for geographic or product specific searches.

We will give clients money-back if they have legitimate concerns...none yet :cool:

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

I think one of the problems in defining guarantees and general business models for SEO and SEM is that there is such a huge difference in the kind of jobs we do and the kind of companies we do it for.

There is a big difference between what you can do with a small or mid-sized website where you can have full ftp access and that is easy to move to any new $50 host and then large coorporate sites where hundreds if not thousands of people are involved and infrastructures a spread across multiple platforms and locations. The same service and pricing models will just not work for both types :)

One of the problems I have experienced with the ranking model is to actually prove the rank. How many days a month do you have to rank well? What if you only rank well for half the month? Or 7 days out of 30? What about clients that say they don't see the ranking URL, when in fact others do? I just think it opens up for too many discussions of the kind I don't like.

[Greenkey]

Good point about others not seeing the same results if they are using different data centers. I guess all you can do is explain this potential before you are engaged by the client. Its been my experience that if you are open and honest at the begining it will be appreciated.

If the client thinks it sounds like you are building in a get out clause, then are they the type of client you want? They need to be able to trust you. If they don't they are quite likely to be the ones that will try and get out of paying over the slightest thing, and that's a hassle I dont need.

In terms of proving/measuring rankings all you can do at the outset is document when you will test the rank. Say the 2nd and 20th of each month across different search engines. That way if Google hiccups on the 20th, then chances are you will still be ok in Yahoo and MSN etc. Be up front and open thats all you can do.

[seomike]

greenkey
>>Personally I dont agree with this model of top rankings for X fee per month...

It's a six month contract at the end of the six month we will be at our guarantee. We divide the final number by 6 and guarantee 1/6 of the total rankings each month.

so a company that is guaranteed 600 rankings for their themes will pay when we their first fee when we reach 100 rankings.

1st month = 100 top rankings
2nd month = 200 top rankings
and so on...

If we don't make our guarantee the withhold payment that month until we make our guarantee. (which has never happend :))

anything after 6 months is maintenance and is totally up to the client, but is strongly implied that it is the best way.

Since SEO is a service based industry I think it is shear ignorance on the SEO side to cut a client loose because they have "finished" optimizing. A business model like that is sales oriented and is fueled by how many sales can we get this month. There it is subject to sales and will have good and bad months. Maybe that's why most seos fail. Our model is residual income by selling and keeping clients by servicing them and taking over their SEM needs. Algorithims change, competition changes and shifts all of which contribute to the FACT that you can't just "optimize and set free" if you truely care about your clientel. Which leads to the point that...

Marketing in general is not a turn key operation you don't just run ads on tv for a month and expect business to keep on coming in a year afterwards.

[Greenkey]

What you say is true, and mostly I agree with it. Perhaps I havent made myself clear.

Cutting loose a client would be a bad practice agreed. Most clients see the benefits and retain seo's if they get results. This happens in my case also. I would much rather have continued client followings than have to go and win new work every month, that's a real bummer and more difficult than doing a good job and keeping a client. It costs more to win a new client than it does keep an old one.

My point was (obviously not made well) that some seo's hold customers to ransom, and thats definately bad practice. If a customer decides to retain an seo based upon results thts great. But if they feel like they have to then that's not good.

I still think my point about optimising a site and having that optimisation as an investment is still a fair and valid one. The point about putting the emphasis on optimising the clients site and not subsequently being totally dependant on an seo company for future services is I think still valid. Customers need to be able to exercise choice. They should not be faced with the choice of 'continue to use us or else your search results placements will be lost'. This cant be good for customers any way you look at it.

[Chris_D]

Lets go online now. ISP's! They provide you a service guarantee that you will have x, y and z.

Come on - what guarantee does your ISP give you? A service guarantee?

For example - Telstra Bigpond Cable is being run over a dedicated cable network. Telstra also offer an ADSL service - which is run over telephone grade copper wire. Do they both have a service level guarantee?

Answer is no.

ADSL has one http://www.bigpond.com/internet-plans/broadband/adsl/sla/

But there is no service level guarantee for Australia's Telstra Bigpond Cable subscribers.

At the end of the day - most guarantees aren't worth the lawyers fees to contest them. Most Guarantees are a sales gimmick. Its actually consumer law in Australia which offers more protection than a "guarantee".

Ok Chris, you being Australian, would you go and buy a new commodore at $40k without a guarantee?

BTW Anthony - how did you know I have a 2004 SV8 Commodore? :)

But they gladly replace the differential that broke whilst you or your son where doing a burnout in it

No they won't. Don't kid yourself. The Holden warranty excludes "misuse or abuse of the vehicle such as by racing, rallying, overloading, etc. or neglect".

Its consumer law that offers the protection Anthony - not the warranty.

[cntrymannj]

Well while i can see the original thought behind this beginning post, anyone who has been in business knows that the word guarantee in business is not what is meant by the original post.

First off "Last time I looked, business was about the definition of a guarantee." The last time i looked business was not about the definition of a guarantee, business is about the definition of PROFIT. The thought that every company stands behind every product with a 100% guarantee is complete absurd. If you were to read the labels they never say 100% guarantee, they say LIMITED guarantee. For example, i recently purchased a lawn mower, craftsman at that, who always offer a guarantee. Well in the process of mowing the lawn it hit something and bent the crank shaft. Well that is not covered under the guarantee, so even though i spent 400 bucks on the mower, i am not required to pay for the repair as well.

As far as a none tangible product, such as SEO, one can not guarantee something which is ever changing. As a programmer if you were to write a program and the database was always changing the manner in which it searched through the data, without you know what manner it would use next, you could NEVER guarantee that the product would work and give the exact results every time. When it can take up to 6 months to get a site into a search engine, at what time does your guarantee run out. You can not give an unended guarantee, because as the search engines broaden and change the way they select the top ranking sites, you never know what method they will use. As well, with the vast number of sites out there, a good SEO company knows that you create your SEO searches based off of particular terms. Being in nashville, if i wanted my SEO company to come up #1 and some one guarantee me that any time SEO or some derivation of that was entered, that my company would come up in the top 20. Well how do i know what term they are going to use? How do i know if they are even going to put in the term nashville so they can have someone local?

With the vast number of varients, you can NEVER assume that you know how people are going to search. And if you were to the SEO for a particular term and then to prove that it worked, searched for the exact term you defined as the key term, it had BETTER give you good results or you just don't need to be in the business. But because you never know how a person will search, for example the use of quotes or the none use of them, you can not guarantee something that is out of your hands.

Just remember, next time you have a car accident and the insurance company refuses to cover something, tell them, well you guarantee it so you have to cover it. Then see what they say to you.

[searchengineblog.com]

What NFFC said. The lawyer (or doctor) model and the pay-for-traffic model.

The truth is SEOs have no control of rankings over time (DOS attack, se algo changes, bug in the matrix etc etc). Most SEO guarantees are partial risk mitigation in favour of the buyer, but little more.

If anyone can guarantee me rankings, over time, for a few choice terms I have in my head, I will hire you! Better be *very* sure you can deliver though, because there is risk involved for me in the opportunity cost that goes with choosing you.

Wonder if your guarantee covers that? ;)

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

There is another issue with guarantees that you have to be aware of: The legal issues.

You may limit your liabilities in the contract but if local laws protect the buyer beyond that then it's possible that the law outrules your contract. In many countries you are not free to make whatever agreements you want - and if you do, they may not hold in court.

I asked my lawyer (the top specialist in Internet related issues here in Denmark) and he told me, from a quick review of the situation, that it may be illegal to offer ranking guarantees - even if you limit the guarantee to be a money-back-guarantee, because you are somehow implying that you have control over rankings. In a trial it would be hard to defend - if not impossible. It would be very easy to get a Google or Yahoo statement saying THEY fully control results - not you. So, at least here in Denmark I would say you run a big legal risk by offering "guaranteed" rankings.

Off course, this is just for Denmark, but most of the laws that this rely on is based on EEC law and therefore I would guess that it's the same case in, at least, other European countries too.

[Anthony Parsons]

Well, for Australia, as Chris has already eluded too, you are faced more heavily under the consumer affairs guidelines here than anything else. You cross them, and you have a world of hurt coming your way as a provider. The legal issue just isn't an issue here. Now whilst in Denmark they may say no, what they may not off thought about is the other end of the scale. Whilst you have a letter from Google stating they control the rankings, an SEO could say, that they have the ability and experience to manipulate them. You would only need to launch a page, get it too rank highly for the given term, and that is counter evidence against the persons ability. Law works in funny ways. The consumer end of it though, you can not avoid.

Now, if you wanted to shoot your own company in the foot, if you where dragged through court by a customer because you did not warrant your guarantee or even if you didn't provide one, though still didn't meet any sort of satisfactory standard representable of the cost, you may well use that in your defence! Say that you do not control the engines, so how can you be held accountable? Now if the customer was on the ball, they would then present a copy of your past work that you can and have manipulated the rankings. Its a two way street that one.

The weather is not in a weather reporters control, though they measure it from past data and predict upon it, and publicize that to everyone. Do they get sued? No. But they can't control the weather. I think a legal battle for that sort of thing could be very interesting with a smart lawyer.

If you were to read the labels they never say 100% guarantee, they say LIMITED guarantee.

Hello! Now there's are valuable point. Should we who offer guarantee's and those who offer nothing, change our writing to reflect "limited guarantee". Limited guarantee meaning, if all is well, the client touches nothing and no major changes have been made, server issue's, etc etc, at the end of the day and then several months past an expected results date, should we all be giving back some money for non-conformance to provide the service we where employed? The service we are employed is vast, thus each would have to depend upon the service and method you deliver that service.

Now, if the definition of guarantee is assurance, then I believe we should provide some assurance, just like the rest of the world does with their products and services; some in and some out of their control. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying a ranking guarantee is right, I am just saying a guarantee of some kind is right. It is equitable to provide assurance. Is it a marketing ploy. Yes and No! A guarantee is a marketing ploy to some extent to get the sale, the guarantee then becomes an assurance when something went wrong and money has to be returned. So a guarantee is not just a marketing ploy, it is a combination of marketing + assurance.

************************************************** ****

The ongoing monthly fee....that's a tough one. I don't really condone it, but can understand it. Because I don't do it like some, doesn't mean its wrong. We do what we do individually to feel comfortable and run our businesses as we want. Now, I am a bit weary of companies who give me prices even when needing to outsource that are a monthly payment. My first question is, how long does this monthly payment need to go for. The answer is normally, as long as you want the rankings. Well, that comes back to the other point about, once rankings are obtained, they should remain. Yes and No. I have rankings that are still in place from two years ago, and I have rankings that slide within months out of contract. Why? Because the term may have some competing people. You move up, they counter act it and move over the top, etc etc. We all know the ranking model and how easy it is too get bumped off; and quite quickly with many terms.

I do offer something similar, where I charge a small fee to continually monitor the rankings (if the client wants), and if they slip below the clients acceptable level, I will recost them to regain the result again. I see that as a more acceptable approach for me and my clients.

************************************************** *****

This guarantee thing is a real issue" with some very good points being made from this post.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

The poing I was trying to make is that non US companies should be carefull about the actual wording of their "guarantee".

In Danish we have to words that cover this - one is "guarantee" and the other is "reklamationsret" (best translated to something like "The right to complain" - but the meaning is different in Dansih). Both words carry some sort of guarantee but if you use the actual word "guarantee" then you can most often not make the limitations that some have suggested here. The law prevents you from that. You can probably do so in the US, and other countries, all I am saying is you shoul check with your local lawyer before you word your "guarantees" :)

[Anthony Parsons]

Absolutely Mikkel...Not enough businesses do consult legal and accountancy advice nowadays. It was one of the first things I ever did to make sure I was firmly planted. It only cost me about $900 or so I think from memory (combined) to have a solicitor look into the policies for online companies, transactions and writings, then to have an account go through everything I needed to meet Australian taxation laws. That was probably the trickiest, as I deal with Global countries, currencies and then global businesses with foreign currency. SEMPO is a classic example off that, but that has been thrashed enough this fortnight :D

Because we have the GST here, there are indifferences for taxation purposes when I charge a client US$299 for a listing in Yahoo.com, and that money comes in, then back out again. So no GST is applicable as such when the customer is foreign to Australia. The rules then change again for Australians though. Untidy stuff IMHO. Yuk....paper work.

The relevant country laws differ so much, its just not worth the risk. And when something does come before you that your not sure about, again, back to legal or accountancy professionals again. Excellent point....that so many miss nor bother about.

[DISC]

Hi,

In my firm's soon to be released new web site I address the problems with SEO guarantees (writing not yet finally edited):

Myth #6: SEO firms that offer guaranteed placement eliminate your risk.

The reasons for this warning are: (1) Firms offering such guarantees are not motivated to bring you enduring success; a quick, fleeting boost is all they need to get your payment. (2) They are biased toward guaranteeing phrases that are less popular and thus easier to position for, rather than the relevant and demanding phrases that may be more competitive and important to your business. (3) Some contracts require continuing payment for continuing position (which reduces your ROI), whereas legitimate SEO done right the first time brings benefits you own in perpetuity. (4) Finally, by focusing on a handful of words for short term position, these firms fail to create a rich, diversified linguistic portfolio that can position many other relevant words and phrases beyond those contracted for. Succinct, relevant, yet diversified language is most likely to endure the search engines' future fine-tunings (for example, the recent "theming," "term vectoring," and conceptual clustering). In short, the interests of firms that offer ostensible guarantees are not in line with your best interests.

If you read the fine print on most guarantees of placement, you will likely get a sense of the bad ethics of the firm and move on. For example, some firms use Pay-Per-Click, not SEO, to get placement for which you pay dearly with each click. We at DISC have seen other laughable deceptions in the fine print.

[Anthony Parsons]

(1) Firms offering such guarantees are not motivated to bring you enduring success; a quick, fleeting boost is all they need to get your payment.

I would say rubbish to that. What your saying, is that by customers spending literally thousands with me, to tear apart their website, rebuild them completely SE friendly, and have my copywriter rewrite all the content to improve rankings + conversions is nothing but a waste of payment because I offer a guarantee? Uuummmm. I think this is the exact rubbish I originally posted about that needs to stop. People need to put alot of thought into writing this stuff.

(2) They are biased toward guaranteeing phrases that are less popular and thus easier to position for, rather than the relevant and demanding phrases that may be more competitive and important to your business.

Now this cracks me up Disc. How exactly did you come to the conclusion that my guarantee only covers non-competitive or "phrases that are less popular and thus easier to position for" as you state, from a guarantee? I provide that same guarantee for clients that I have performed SEO this year with terms up to 19 million allintitle. Mate, again, you need to have a close look at what your writing. Jill Whalen and most of her moderators offer no guarantee what so ever, and only deals with non-competitive terms. I can't speak for others, but last time I looked, I supply a guarantee + competitive terms. How do I do that? I have a lot of faith in my ability to achieve what I say, or else I just wouldn't take the job if I had doubt.

(3) Some contracts require continuing payment for continuing position (which reduces your ROI), whereas legitimate SEO done right the first time brings benefits you own in perpetuity.

I still don't think you thought about this either in great depth. As I just said a few posts ago, I agree with you in some aspects, but you just can't look at it completely in that light. Go and get yourself a ranking for a term, lets say even with only a 100,000 allintitle. I am willing to make a bet that if you left that term longer than a month or two, the rankings will slip significantly because the sheer competitiveness of the term has websites all round you wanting to get over you because they are actively optimizing and marketing their websites. You need to live and breath a website near on now to maintain any sort of competitive ranking in Google. This is exactly where ongoing monthly monitoring is essential, and then possibly just quoting each time it slips. For non-competitive terms, yer sure, they should stay put for a long time, but not competitive.

(4) Finally, by focusing on a handful of words for short term position, these firms fail to create a rich, diversified linguistic portfolio that can position many other relevant words and phrases beyond those contracted for. Succinct, relevant, yet diversified language is most likely to endure the search engines' future fine-tunings (for example, the recent "theming," "term vectoring," and conceptual clustering). In short, the interests of firms that offer ostensible guarantees are not in line with your best interests.

Failing to agree with you even on this. A 20 page site, again, speaking for myself only, I may use 3 terms per page = 60, then another 100 non-competitive phrases well co-ordinated within those pages, depending on the page and the context of the page. A 20 page site generally ends up being found for hundreds of relevant terms, let alone the ones I don't target against. In actual fact, your statement really only applies to those who cost on each keyword term, opposed to overall SEO / SEM. Then your statement may apply, but that has nothing to do with a company that provides a guarantee.

If you read the fine print on most guarantees of placement, you will likely get a sense of the bad ethics of the firm and move on. For example, some firms use Pay-Per-Click, not SEO, to get placement for which you pay dearly with each click. We at DISC have seen other laughable deceptions in the fine print.

Absolutely agree with you on that one. People who write in fineprint honestly piss me off. They are being nothing more than deceptive. Whether you guarantee or not, deceptive is deceptive and nothing will ever change that.

I am not disagreeing with most of the posts here, whilst good points and bad are made on both sides of the fence. But quite honestly, your myth #6 sucks. IMHO you need to throw it away and rewrite it in a more descriptive manner that doesn't frown upon anyone who offers a guarantee. A guarantee is nothing more than an assurance, and an assurance is nothing more than the person offering it.

There are people who offer guarantees with no assurance. There are people who offer guarantees and provide that assurance. There are people who offer no guarantee and no assurance, and then those who offer no guarantee and do provide the assurance to the customer. At the end of the day, guarantee or not, it is the person who offers the assurance that counts. Maybe you want to write that into your myth instead of just everyone who offers a guarantee. How about more along the lines of those who assure their guarantee or just flat out assure their services to the customer.

[cntrymannj]

What assurance can you offer a company with a site? Are you going to say to them, i assure you that your website is going to be in a search engine. Because that is the ONLY assurance you can give a client. And at what point does that assurance stop. You can not offer a lifetime assurance, so you have to give them a set time. And the point that everyone keeps skipping over is that, according to the search engine companies themselves, it can take up to 6 months to even get your site listed under the category and or terms you would like. So does your assurance start when the site first appears in a search engine and then stop x amount of months later, or does it start the day you submit it and stop x amount of months later.

How can you assure or guarantee something that is not even controlled by the search engines. The final results comes down to one simple thing that is being over looked here. HOW DID THE END USER SEARCH. You can not guarantee or assure that you are going to be figure out how ever end user is going to search for your product. For example searching for the term SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZATION or the term "SEARCH ENIGNE OPTIMZATION" return different results. While some of the companies may still appear on the same page they are NOT in the same position they were in with both searches. And what about those sites that end up blacklisted? Or a site that had been submitted previously that your now updating. Its old version could still be listed and now the new listings you created. So how do you guarantee or assure for that situation.

So how do you assure for something that is 100% out of the hands of the developer, the company that owes the site and the search engines who always change their algorithms.

[robwatts]

Guarantees, IMO aren't often worth the screen they are displayed upon.

I agree with that NFFC chap said too.

It really is a Dr/Lawyer/Accountant model relationship. I'll do my best.

All you can reasonably offer is that you will work with due diligence and care. You should be able to demonstrate a key understanding of the Search market place and, IMO be prepared to offer up a reference or 2.

When I take on a new client I make sure that they are fully aware of what the market has to offer. I explain, often in painful detail, what they will be getting, and what I will do for them. I appraise them of the likely timescales and costs and will be brutally honest too. If its gonna take more than 6 months I'll tell them, if it means a year of day in day out sheer hard work, then i'll them that too. Personally, I see no point at all in being anything other than 100% upfront and honest. I just don't see the mileage in telling a site owner, that I will have them at numero uno for 'competitive kp' within a defined timescale, as to do so, would be in most cases be disingenuous at best and utter lies at worst. Why? well, simple really. It boils down to that old age chestnut of I simply shouldn't guarantee results for SE's that I have no overall control over. To suggest that I can would be a falsehood. Sure, my traffic record elsewhere might demonstrate this or a determined sustained effort of doing the right kind of things, overtime might also result in good SERP positions eventually, and some SEO's (the exception rather than the rule) have a range of supplemental tools (think domains) up their sleeves which can deliver relatively quickly for a select set of KW's, but a the end of it all it simply should not be a guaranteed thing.

Some people will proclaim that they guarantee ranking positions which will be sustained over a period of time etc. They say things like "You shouldn't take money for things you can't deliver etc blah"..well..thats their choice of course, if they can deliver and are so supremley confident in their ability then good luck to them. I take such claims with a huge pinch of salt, but i wouldn't call them liars either...

I take the view that at the end of it all its about being brutally honest and appraising the situation for all its worth. I have no problem at all with saying that Ill charge Y and I'll want X upfront and Z when you start seeing yourself on page A for B term over C period of time..but that's more about sensible terms of business then anything else. After all, why shouldn't I get paid for applying practical SEO to their pages? Isn't my time worth anything? Why should I be penalised because some SE changes its terms of business 4 weeks down the line? Why should I be held accountable for any number of decisions outside my immediate sphere of control? If you are offering any guarantee worth the screen estate on which it displays, then its gonna be one hell of a complex document, that, or the SEO is putting themselves in a potentially expensive and precarious position.

Some Se's are doing a great job in removing some of the old certainties for the precise purpose that they dont really want seo to flourish. Their view is "Give us money for PPC and WE will send you reliable Targetted Traffic.."

Maybe its just me, but I think the message is clear, and that is, SEO shouldn't make promises it can't keep. If it can, then great, if it wants to work its arse off only to fail due to no fault of its own and not get paid then fine, but its hardly a sustainable model. Much of such talk is mere clap trappy sales rubbish.

As Peter D pointed out earlier, I too have a range of KP's that I'd love to have guaranteed long term positioning on..

Main requirement: Guaranteed ROI. You get paid when I begin to profit. Any takers?

[cntrymannj]

I couldnt agree more with what rob had to say.

However this comment: Main requirement: Guaranteed ROI. You get paid when I begin to profit. Any takers? would make me wonder about a business. Any business that has the time to follow up with all its clients to see if they are making a profit, let alone believe a business needs to look at how their business is run. Not to mention what if you working with a NON profit company, i guess then you just gave away your time and work because they never show a profit.

You made some great points rob

[massa]

I hestitate to speak because so many in this industry are so quick to judge others without just cause or due process and it makes it difficult to feel comfortable enough to speak openly. I speak now only with a true desire to help solidfy and unify the industry. I believe the industry getting better, helps me to get better. I hope it's taken in that spirit.
********************************

In my opinion, we are making this issue WAAAYYYY more complicated than it needs to be. To simplify the problem and put us all on a more level playing field, (competitively speaking), stop including the search engines in the equation. Stop discussing legalities and lawyers. Talk more in terms of telling the potential client what you will do, then guarantee you will do it, establish a remedy to the client if you don't do it and then do it.

Stop thinking in terms of guaranteeing positions or even return. Think more in terms of what you can control and what expected benefit that gives to the customer. For some broad examples:

**We will review your keyword selection and perform 3 hours of research. When compelted we will send you a report to review. If we have not completed this task within 10 days of your order, you will be entitled to a full refund.**


**We will build 10 pages with up to 500 words of text and send you the completed pages for your approval. We will have this done within 30 days of cheerfully refund your money**

(these are not examples that relate to any specific placements techniques. I avoided that type of terminology to make a point)

Start thinking more in those kinds of terms and the task of putting your client at ease becomes easier. Remember this though.

If THEY offer a guarantee and you don't, your sales could suffer. THEY have the comeptitive edge. There is a reason most businesses offer a gurantee. As someone else stated earlier, IT HELPS SALES. Consumers expect a certain level of committment from the provider that they will actually get the value they think you are selling. You expect it, I expect and to not assume your potential customers expect it, is basically forcing them to my doorstep reading my billboard, (me being your competitor of course).

I believe once you secure a client, that client can not be taken from you. You can only lose him. If you can actually perform the service you are selling, the client will benefit and see value in the relationship. If you fail to perform, you will lose the client and no guarantee will stop them. If your client drops you and goes with me, it won't be because I have a guarantee and you don't. It will be because you did not deliver what your client expected from you and he believes I will deliver that.

Guarantee what you can control, make clear the remedy you offer if you fail and then do what you say you will do. While doing that, use your head and remember customers are not always upfront and honest.

I know in these forums we often seem to give the impression that this industry is rampant with dark shadow, back alley con men just waiting for their next victim. I have never understood where this concept came from. I have had the great pleasure of personally meeting or interacting with a great many SEO's, (whatever that is), and to the person, they are decent, honest people who are trying their best to offer a quality service. I don't know of a single one of them who I would label a liar or cheater or thief. If we could ever find a way to ride out on a rail those that accuse their peers without good cause,(or at least sdtop listening to them and giving them a platform to speak from), the industry's image would turn around virtually overnight in my opininon.

Sorry for drifting to a sermon there for a moment. My point is that some customers will see your guarantee as a weakness, or loophole if you will, and use it to attempt what amounts to theft of services. Be aware. Be educated. Not just in the ways of technology but in the ways of man, good and evil as well. That is not being paranoid or even being a good SEO, (whatever that is), that is being a good business person.

Do the best job you can do
Be proud of what you do
Do what you say you will do


and charge accordingly

Do that and you can put it in writing.

[NFFC]

>I have had the great pleasure of personally meeting or interacting with a great many SEO's, (whatever that is), and to the person, they are decent, honest people who are trying their best to offer a quality service.

I couldn't agree more. I have been involved in a few industries/professions, never have I met or done business with any group that are more honest, trustworthy or ethical as SEO's.

>I know in these forums we often seem to give the impression that this industry is rampant with dark shadow, back alley con men just waiting for their next victim. I have never understood where this concept came from.

It comes from the guys who promise to make your "hit counter sing", gauaranteed. ;)

[Anthony Parsons]

Couldn't off said that better if I tried Massa. Claps all round. As I said right from the start; the definition of guarantee is assurance! Look it up for yourself. That is the real definition as I stated in the first post.

People here are just flat out saying they offer NO assurance what so ever for any off their services. It is a very simple question that I originally asked:

Do you guarantee your services?

Where is the voting currently? 15 No's and 6 Yes. Unbelievable numbers that do not provide any type of assurance to their customers to perform what they say they will perform. Sounds to me more like the No's are actually doing an unservice to the SEO industry by not providing a guarantee that you are going to write x amount of pages with 500 words or more, you are going to submit them by hand to x amount of relevant quality directories and so forth. I think the people who say no, actually need to have a good rethink about how they are affecting the industry after Massa's fairly clear cut statement! Don't you?

[cntrymannj]

You know when this whole thread started the guarantee was not the guarantee that your going to do the work. The guarantee was that they would get the results. You dont have to guarantee that you do the work, because the client can see if you actually do the work. And that is not what people are saying when we vote no in the poll.

If you had better defined what you were asking to start then you would probably have gotten different responses from EVERYONE.

[Anthony Parsons]

Do you guarantee your services or not?
If not, why not? If so, why so?
What sort of guarantee?


Me!

#1 Yes, I do provide a guarantee on my services.
#2 Because I am very confident in my own ability to achieve what I say I will achieve.
#3 Top 20 results for 80% minimum of the agreed terms in Google, Yahoo and MSN each. Money back on service charge, excluding any third party costs, such as directory inclusions, etc.

************************************************** **

What is a guarantee? Its a formal assurance that certain conditions will be fulfilled.

I think my original post was pretty clear actually. It was three simple questions, one with a poll. I don't think they where misleading in any way. People will all take them in their own stride how they want, and have, as you can see from all the posts. Last time I looked, if you provide a service to write 500 words on a page, then that is a service. Do you guarantee your going to do what you say? Do you provide a set ranking level service? Another service, do you guarantee you will reach that ranking level? The question is very open, which was the idea to pick and see what people have to say. It is not, and never was focused on "ranking guarantee" and I even clearly stated that from the start, hence why people are talking about PPC and so forth in their posts.

[Anthony Parsons]

I will be very clear again though, "There is no right or wrong to this topic".

[searchengineblog.com]

Unbelievable numbers that do not provide any type of assurance to their customers to perform what they say they will perform

We do provide assurance, Anthony - it's called a contract. We say we will do something, the client signs it off, we do it, we charge for it.

We don't provide ranking guarantees because, apart from anything else, we base our measurements around qualified traffic aquisition. I'm not sure what rankings prove, anyway? A ranking that doesn't result in increased business is a cost, not a benefit.

Personally, I don't think a guarantee is necessary for us given that we concentrate on the value proposition and that we have service contracts. Also, guarantees can backfire - they can sound a little down market, especially to marketing managers.

Be very careful about saying those that don't provide guarantees don't provide assurance, though. They are not the same thing.

[cntrymannj]

You #2 and #3 other are about serach engine rankings.

#2 Because I am very confident in my own ability to achieve what I say I will achieve.
#3 Top 20 results for 80% minimum of the agreed terms in Google, Yahoo and MSN each. Money back on service charge, excluding any third party costs, such as directory inclusions, etc

if you state top 20 results how can that not be search engine rankings. And if you promise to achieve something what else can you achieve. The only thing you can achieve is SEO is high rankings. If you can achieve something else please enlighten all of us because you probably have come up with another area of business that no one knows about. SEO is SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZATION or did you not know that. And if your #2 and #3 are not talking about rankings then what in the world were you talking about because they clearly read rankings to anyone with some bit of intelligence. I mean come on #3 says it right in the text.

So if you can please explain to us how you didnt mean rankings when you clearly stated it. Don't blame others for your comments. As we can all read, you clearly stated that you guarantee "Top 20 results for 80% minimum of the agreed terms." Hmm that means search engine ranking.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

the definition of guarantee is assurance! Look it up for yourself. That is the real definition as I stated in the first post.

I am sorry, but that may be true in the US (I don't know) but is certainly NOT true in many other countries. In Denmark a guarantee is a guarantee and NOT an assurance and NOT something you can delute with lots of limitations. If you say you have a guarantee you better deliver or else you may be violating the law.

[Anthony Parsons]

You #2 and #3 other are about serach engine rankings.

So if you can please explain to us how you didnt mean rankings when you clearly stated it. Don't blame others for your comments. As we can all read, you clearly stated that you guarantee "Top 20 results for 80% minimum of the agreed terms." Hmm that means search engine ranking.

#2 & #3 are not the original question though as you asked??? What I say, and what I asked originally are two different things. My guarantee is my guarantee. I didn't ask you too rate my guarantee, I asked what I asked clearly in the original post. You may need to read it again and get off posts #2 & #3.

How many times do I have to repeat this during posts....its not a right or wrong practice, its not about you or about me, its just about guarantee's. People get onto one thing they read and run with it, which takes topics way off track. If you want to discuss my guarantee, then send me a PM or something, but I am sure that the amount of posts here talk about ranking guarantee's, service guarantee's, PPC guarantee's and so forth. I don't believe the heading of this thread even says, "ranking" within it, so lets stick with the thread shall we.

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

With the kind of limitations people seems to put in the term "guarantee" i do not personally think it's got anything to do with such: It's a just a business contract. If the terms of the contract is met then fine, if not the contract will state the consequences. I don't think that has much to do with guarantee.

Now I realize why it's a good idea we have such strong laws in Denmark on your right to use words like guarantee (and "free" and many other words).

I think the use of the word "guarantee" is mostly just a marketing plot. You want the buyers to think it is guaranteed when in fact all you do is live up to the contract you signed. Why not just call it a contract? Because you want the feelings associated with the word "guarantee" - and thats why I call it a marketing plot. It's not substance - it's marketing. And, in this case (like others) I think this kind of marketing is confusing the market more than it does good.

If you think guarantee is the same as assurance why are you not using that word? Why "steal" a much more powerfull word like guarantee and reduce it to nothing with limitations and fine print?

Personally I never use the word guarantee in my services. I do some work on performance basis but it is never called a guarantee. Affiliate programs are not labelled with "guarantee" either. In fact, the majority of the clients I service would run away scraming if I started to use the guarantee term because I would basically put myself in a basket of suppliers these kinds of companies just don't want to deal with. Guarantee is definately getting a bad name. Too sad, but thats what I see.

[Anthony Parsons]

That's pretty tough Mikkel. I think I can speak for the main English speaking countries being UK, USA and Australia, that their dictionaries are fairly close and that the same defintion is produced within them. Denmark...wow...tough stuff.

This is what is getting me still though. A guarantee is an assurance by definition (except Denmark), and yet so many have just voted "NO". Now Mikkel and others from countries that a guarantee doesn't define as an assurance are excused, but what excuse do any off us have to not provide assurance too our customers.

Be very careful about saying those that don't provide guarantees don't provide assurance, though. They are not the same thing.

But as mentioned above, by definition, which is also by law, yes they are one in the same!

Quote Macquarie Concise Dictionary Ed 2

Assurance: A positive declaration intended to give confidence. A pledge, guarantee or surety.
Contract: An agreement between two or more parties for the doing or not doing of a definite thing. An agreement enforceable by law. The writing containing such an agreement.
Guarantee: A promise or assurance, given in writing. To engage to protect or indemnify.

I reckon you could nearly be splitting hairs between them three. So, if you provide a contract, you are in essence providing a guarantee of service by law, in writing? Hence, you would then provide an SEO Guarantee?

What really really gets me about all this, is that a few key people decided not to provide them for all the reasons already mentioned, people decided to follow and the plague spread wider and wider, thus somebody forgot to tell the search engines, because Google themselves "in writing" recommend you hire an SEO who provides a guarantee! Be stuffed ha. I somehow think you could be hard pressed getting that statement from Google to declare they are in control of their rankings.

No one can guarantee a #1 ranking on Google.

Beware of SEO's that claim to guarantee rankings, or that claim a "special relationship" with Google, or that claim to have a "priority submit" to Google. There is no priority submit for Google. In fact, the only way to submit a site to Google directly is by using the page at http://www.google.com/addurl.html. You can do this yourself at no cost whatsoever.

Make sure you're protected legally.

For your own safety, you should insist on a full and unconditional money-back guarantee. Don't be afraid to request a refund if you are unsatisfied for any reason, or if your SEO's actions causes your domain to be removed from a search engine's index. Make sure you have a contract in writing that includes pricing. The contract should also require the SEO to stay within the guidelines recommended by each search engine for site inclusion.

Source: Google Webmasters (http://www.google.com/webmasters/seo.html)

Now come on, before we talk anymore about what the search engines want and so forth. Google themselves give consumers the leading story of what too look out for when hiring an SEO. They tell you clearly to look out for things out of the ordinary, like what has already been mentioned here and we know well and truly :: The #1 ranking guarantee, and the guaranteed rankings for obscure words you would get anyway and the list goes on. They are not saying that you should not guarantee your services, in essence, they are telling people too insist on 100% money back guarantee. Is Google wrong also? Don't argue the point with me, argue the point with them. Who are you more inclined to listen too? Google, or a couple of marketers who chose not to provide guarantee's, assurances, etc.

So, getting back to the original question, "Do you guarantee your services", if you use a contract stipulating what you "are" going to do and achieve by "x" time, then you are providing a legal guarantee to the client. Whether you include a non-refundable clause, or whatever, that is up to you, but you are providing an up-front guarantee of services to your client. Why do you use a contract? To protect your client from you abusing them, and them abusing you. Its a two way assurance. Its a guarantee, signed and legal by law.

Lets not get off track and onto the "ranking guarantee" thing only, because there is so much more to this than just providing rankings. People have mentioned in here already that they provide guaranteed ROI. So that is a guarantee. Me personally, I don't think that is achievable unless you coach each client through your site. Or maybe what is being meant is an increase in targeted traffic, which will "hopefully" increase conversions thus providing an reasonable ROI.

We can manipulate a website through documented evidence to improve conversions, the same as we can manipulate the ranking through documented evidence to provide higher rankings. Uuuummmmm?????

[Anthony Parsons]

I think the use of the word "guarantee" is mostly just a marketing plot. You want the buyers to think it is guaranteed when in fact all you do is live up to the contract you signed.

If you think guarantee is the same as assurance why are you not using that word? Why "steal" a much more powerfull word like guarantee and reduce it to nothing with limitations and fine print?

Now these are excellent points Mikkel. I think you have possibly hit it on the head and driven it home now. I did mention earlier that IMO, a guarantee is "marketing + assurance" or in another instance, "marketing + contract", for a better term.

Why don't we use "Money Back Assurance"? I like it, but I personally think it would only confuse things more by changing the word. Guarantee is on everything we buy, its everywhere. Its known, its marketed already! (marketing + assurance)

So, all of us who deal with contracts, are we all guilty of providing a guarantee as such in writing, legally binding?

[Mikkel deMib Svendsen]

Is Google wrong also?

Yes, Google is very wrong on that statement and this has been discussed many times before.

This statement is in line with other stupid statements we've seen from them, like a recent event where a Google rep said: No, SEO companies can not do anything for you in Google!

Don't be afraid to request a refund if you are unsatisfied for any reason, or if your SEO's actions causes your domain to be removed from a search engine's index

As long as Google will not provide a list of the domains they have penalized and the reasons why this statement is empty air to me.

Try and ask Google if they will provide you with the same "full and unconditional money-back guarantee" for their services? ... By the way, you don't have to waste your time - they don't! Why is it that Google think we should provide that guarantee and they should not?

This particular statement from Google is, I must say, just as bad as the worst kind of stupid guarantees we see around (I am not talking about the "quality assurance" kind of services some of the posters provide here, but the pure garbage we all see around). Googles statement has not done anything good for this business and in my mind it only serves to make Google look stupid. But thats their decission :)


Money Back Assurance

Yes, I like that term much better :)

[Nick W]

Why is it that Google think we should provide that guarantee and they should not?


That entire page is just a kick in the face for SEO, dont you guys get it? ;-)

In the brief time I spent doing SEO for other companies I didnt garantee a damn thing. The people I worked for seemed to appreciate that once i'd explained it....

Nick

[Anthony Parsons]

I might just use that "money back assurance" within my next contract you know???

[Jill Whalen]

PeterD stole what I wanted to say (as he is known to do ;) ).

There's a big difference between a guarantee and a contract. If you use a contract as any professional does, then there's no need for those silly guarantees that say you'll get 80% of the keywords ranked across 10 engines that nobody searches in...

[DISC]

First of all I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to make many excellent postings here. Taken in total, the discussion has enabled me to resolve this issue for my firm and for my clients and prospects.

It’s clear to me that everyone here could write a comprehensive article on the pros and cons of guarantees if they had the time and motivation. However, forums like this one entail dialog where each person makes a point, without trying to make all points. The ensuing discussion, if it is good like this one has been, covers other points that any one person could have made if they had the time or were required to make in, say, a comprehensive article. Because of the nature of this dialog, I go into it with as little ego as I can manage, and I try not to get too attached to any one point I make, because I hope to fully appreciate countervailing points. I believe that this spirit of unfolding dialog is not helped by some of the words that Anthony Parsons used: “rubbish to that,” “exact rubbish,” and “This cracks me up.” Words like that tend to force the speaker to stay committed to his or her views behind such utterances, rather than learn from counterpoints.

Anyway, I believe that the arguments put forth in this thread justly undermine arguments in favor of guarantees of position. Guarantees of good and timely service and such are another matter – one for which the SEM firm’s client histories, references, and testimonials will provide the kind of basis that smart executives have always considered when choosing a service vendor.

My firm has been doing SEO for over seven years with all kinds of clients worldwide, and even those clients we SEO’d from 1998 to 2001 (who have not messed up the SEO themselves) have received continuing superb results without ongoing tweaking or retainer fees. On the other hand, we do have a few large clients for whom it is cost effective to tweak their past SEO (in addition to doing more SEO or other web marketing), and I’m sure that there are many cases where ongoing SEO maintenance will deliver rapid and positive ROI. This is getting off the topic a bit, but it does pertain in that I find that I close sales very well by proving the lack of need for a contract whose guarantee might seem to the prospect to imply that the work will not be an enduring investment whose value they own in perpetuity.

By the way, though this is mere anecdote, I just won a huge new account who, upon reading my remarks about guarantees (and other text not yet live on my firm’s in-process new web site), chose DISC over several competing SEM firms. This prospect, like many marketing managers, knows enough to know that guarantees in such a complex and changing field are suspect. In other words, I think it is more effective to sell on the basis of one’s client histories and other indications of integrity than by guarantees. If Anthony has been so successful with his guarantees, and I don’t doubt that he has been, then he doesn’t really need guarantees to win great new clients.

Thanks again everyone.

[Jill Whalen]

Great posts, Rob (DISC). :)

I agree completely.

[I, Brian]

If anyone can guarantee me rankings, over time, for a few choice terms I have in my head, I will hire you! Better be *very* sure you can deliver though, because there is risk involved for me in the opportunity cost that goes with choosing you.

Absolutely true - when I'm talking to local businesses the client usually has a clear idea of precisely the sort of keyword/phrase they want to be ranked for, and it usually has to be on a specifical search engine, usually Google, and within a specific time frame. Then the rankings should be more or less maintained during the time that services are purchased for.

In that instance, it's very much a case of researching and reporting whether I can achieve those search terms for them - even whether better search terms can be optimised for for better target traffic.

And then when proceeding to write up a contract, I include a "money back guarrantee" simply because if I cannot deliver agreed targets, then my services were never good enough to pay for in the first place.

Ultimately, if you cannot offer a guarantee of some sort, you can only be selling on some other form of important marketing hook.

After all, discerning businesses do not buy products and services on the grounds that the provider "will do their best". Guarrantees of some form have to exist to reassure the client that not only are they investing their money wisely, but also that the service being delivered is professional.

Frankly I'm left feeling pretty much the country bumpkin - I seem to be in a small camp that SEO should deliver specific agreed results - and that's what you're paid to achieve.

Maybe other people buy dedicated servers with no SLA, cars with no warranty, and domestic applicances that have passed no manufacturing standards - because all that matters is that someone, somewhere, tried hard, and that's a worthwhile cause to throw your business money at.

Geez - even us British aren't that British when it comes to marketing! :)

[searchengineblog.com]

And then when proceeding to write up a contract, I include a "money back guarrantee" simply because if I cannot deliver agreed targets, then my services were never good enough to pay for in the first place.

I think the terminology is clouding the issue.

Our contracts state what we will do, and we do 100% of what the contract says, not "oh, we might do 80%, but maybe not". If we don't deliver 100%, then the client would seek recourse. We have never under-delivered. We almost always over-deliver.

We find the term "guarantee" problematic given the legal risk, the nature of the supplier, and our place in the market. It may work for you in your market, and that's fine.

However, it is wrong to suggest, as a previous poster did, "unbelievable numbers that do not provide any type of assurance to their customers to perform what they say they will perform"

We do - more so, in fact. We just don't use the term "guarantee", for reasons previously stated.

[seobook]

Our contracts state what we will do, and we do 100% of what the contract says, not "oh, we might do 80%, but maybe not". If we don't deliver 100%, then the client would seek recourse. We have never under-delivered. We almost always over-deliver.

I think it is a good idea to under promise and over deliver. there is enough profit margin in SEO to where you can extremely under promise and then deliver well above expectations. Sometimes I forget to do this enough and want to kick myself in the face for it. :)

[Anthony Parsons]

I believe that this spirit of unfolding dialog is not helped by some of the words that Anthony Parsons used: “rubbish to that,” “exact rubbish,” and “This cracks me up.” Words like that tend to force the speaker to stay committed to his or her views behind such utterances, rather than learn from counterpoints.

No need to get all bent out of shape Rob....It is just straight to the point, no fluff around the edges comments. Take it or not. I am not in the BS industry, sorry. Good post though.

I think there are many good points from all this, for both sides, though at the end of the day, I believe we are really splitting hairs between "assurance, guarantee & contract". Regardless of what we uniquely offer our clients for services provided, guarantee or assurance are only as good as the person giving them, contract is definately the written component to "guarantee & assurance". Now I use a contract, yet I provide a guarantee for service quality. Are they not one in the same? Yes. I think we would need a lawyer as such to comment on the legalities issue, as none off us here are such.

It is only an opinion whether it is right or wrong, but at the end of the day, should any off us criticise anothers marketing method? Well, if we know for a fact that the person / company offering such a guarantee, assurance or contract even, are not going to obide by it, then that person is negligent, not the use of the word guarantee, assurance or contract. Yes, if a contract was used, then the consumer has a written document for recourse. Now heres a good example of SEO marketing vs. guarantee from Robs DISC site:

Rather than guarantees, ask for solid proof of the firm's past successes, in the form of WebPosition reports and server statistics. Ask for references you can speak with. Be suspicious of a short client list. You can call any of the businesses in DISC's long client list. Source (http://www.2disc.com/search_engine_ranking.html)

Just an example only, nothing more; is where the focus has now been moved off using a guarantee for marketing to attempt to tell people that only SEO companies with LONG client lists are reputable, such as DISC.

IMHO, nothing is right or wrong about how any off us market our businesses, the words we use or the way we express it individually. What we should not be doing is telling people that those who offer or don't offer a guarantee is right or wrong, as it is only our personal opinion. Possibly is should read, "In my opinion, guarantee's are not worth x", although, it is the company and person behind the guarantee that provides its validity.

Now is it right then for DISC to say, be wary of companies with short client lists? Probably not. A person with 20 years marketing experience might decide to open their own SEO firm, have more experience than DISC, but not a long client list! So is it right to say be wary of companies who offer Guarantee's? Probably not. Some very large companies offer guarantee's. Another example right beside this post:

http://www.anthonyparsons.com/images/sew1.gif

Is anyone going to call Trellian "unreputable" because they advertise with the word "Guaranteed"?

[seobook]

It is only an opinion whether it is right or wrong, but at the end of the day, should any off us criticise anothers marketing method?
it seems to be fairly common. I have given negative marketing to a firm who cold called me.

Just an example only, nothing more; is where the focus has now been moved off using a guarantee for marketing to attempt to tell people that only SEO companies with LONG client lists are reputable, such as DISC.
people with short client lists can do well. many of the best in the industry quickly get out of it because it is more profitable running their own shop.

IMHO, nothing is right or wrong about how any off us market our businesses, the words we use or the way we express it individually.
there are many people who are blatently taking people to the cleaners. maybe not many of them are here...but they do exist and are plentiful.

What we should not be doing is telling people that those who offer or don't offer a guarantee is right or wrong, as it is only our personal opinion. Possibly is should read, "In my opinion, guarantee's are not worth x", although, it is the company and person behind the guarantee that provides its validity.
I think that is how we market our products / services. Primarily we promote ourselves. Comparing oneself to another is likely a good way to feel angry or inadequate.

Now is it right then for DISC to say, be wary of companies with short client lists? Probably not. A person with 20 years marketing experience might decide to open their own SEO firm, have more experience than DISC, but not a long client list!
I do not think many people with 20 years in marketing are jumping into SEO right now. I also think the best ROI is with a person who does not know what they are worth (that usually comes with a small client list).

Its kinda a crapshoot long or short client list. It is up to the customer to do adequate research.

So is it right to say be wary of companies who offer Guarantee's? Probably not. Some very large companies offer guarantee's.
The size of a company has nothing to do with the quality of their service.

Is anyone going to call Trellian "unreputable" because they advertise with the word "Guaranteed"?
no, but if your site was already banned from a search engine they can not guarantee that it will soon be included in all search major engines.

[Anthony Parsons]

I love your straight to the point approach Aaron. Well said. Thanks for the insight.

[fathom]

Interesting discussion.

Personally & professionally (and of my own opinion) guarantees on any service that is based on another company's business model tends to be "totally worthless", if such guarantees are associated with the conduct of that other business to change and without notification to you or your clients.

e.g. Search Engines

This isn't suggesting that SEO which offer guarantees are scam artists but more towards not clearly thinking out their own business model.

Offering a guarantee "matters not" nor does it matter how confident you are in your abilities (thus offer a guarantee) it only matters if a client actions that guarantee -- was it factually honored to the client's satisfaction based on their own intrepretation of the implied meaning (that may actually differ from the SEO's intrepretation).

Since a client doesn't understand SEO thier understanding of a SEO guarantee is often skewed... face it, it's not that straight forward like buying a toaster and getting it home - "it works" or "it don't" and the customer actions the guarantee to get a new one or money back.

The guarantee is an attempt to justify your service credibility - I would be far more interested in knowing after-the-fact how many guarantees have been honored.

It is simply amazing to go to many websites and read implied guarantees that are truly without much forethought.

Ranks in all major search engines is the biggest mistake... I've seen companies generate 8K+ daily traffic from Google & Yahoo but missed ranking targets in MSN, and the client (as the guarantee implied) wanted what they were promised that the company did not deliver...

The company on the other hand retorts "Look at Google/Yahoo" -- however, "all" means "all" and ranks elsewhere isn't the issue at hand... and the client (based on the loosely written guarantee) is entitled to whatever the guarantee implied.

Prior to honoring a guarantee -- it is a marketing pitch... nothing more.

For myself I need not offer guarantees simply because my business model has matured to the point of offering performance-based services and most recently commission-based services.

Like others - I am confident in my abilities such that I am far more willing to assume greater risk to generate greater returns.

[randfish]

My company doesn't do SEO/SEM work per se, so our model may not apply as well as others.

However, we do give guarantees of a sort. We agree only to be paid based on the number of leads, sales, etc that a website we work for makes. At the current time we have three clients, all of whom pay us based on performance of the site.

This means we get revenues based on how many visitors make a purchase or sign up for a service, etc. rather than basing it on visitors total or top rankings.

I like this in many ways because it gives us an opportunity to make an extraordinary amount. The downside is that we have encountered customers who held us to the letter of unfavorable contracts and thus, we were forced to drop the account without receiving payment.

I think this kind of deal only works when there is an exceptionally positive and strong relationship between yourself and your client. The trust factor must be built up so high that minor incidents or even short-term problems are faced with an attitude of "we're in this together" rather than "you screwed me!".

In any case, we are just starting out with this type of compensation (2 years in) and wouldn't go back for the world.