Website Submission Question

[Kristin]

How difficult is it to submit your website (by yourself) to Google, Yahoo, etc.? Is it worth paying someone to do it for you ($50)? Does anyone have a recommendation of a Submission Co. that you've had a good experience with?

Thanks,
Kristin

[Robert_Charlton]

How difficult is it to submit your website (by yourself) to Google, Yahoo, etc.? Is it worth paying someone to do it for you ($50)?

For algorithmic SEO, if that's what you're asking about, it's pointless to submit your site to Google, Yahoo, or MSN. What you need to do instead is to get inbound links from sites that are already indexed on those search engines. If you do that, the engines will find you on their own. If the engines can't find you, you won't rank anyway, so it's pointless to submit.

Additionally, on Google in particular, but perhaps also on Yahoo, it may well take you many months to rank after you've gotten indexed. MSN rankings are much quicker to appear.

You ought to do some reading about getting good quality inbound links. In general, the best way to get good quality inbounds is to have excellent content, content of the quality you'd bookmark or link to yourself, and then to do your best to publicize your site so it will be discovered.

[Kristin]

I'm an extreme newbie and I'm not sure what algrithmic SEO is. My website designer told me she would submit my site to the top 100 search engines for a certain fee. Does that clarify what I'm asking? Could you explain why it would be pointless to do this?

Thanks,
Kristin

[seminhouse]

As long as your website has other websites pointing to you, there is no need to submit your website to the search engines - they'll find you on their own.

As for someone wanting to charge you for it -- you don't need it, don't pay it.

[David Wallace]

There are only four major search engines, one of which does not even have a submission form (Ask). All of them will find your site on their own. This is the preferred method. How do they do this? By finding your site via a link on a site that is already in their index. That can be from a directory, a paid link, a one way link, reciprocal link or even a link on your web designer's portfolio page (if applicable).

Submit your site to directories, both free and paid and the main engines will find you.

[vayapues]

Do not under any circumstances pay a submission company any fees to submit your site to directories. This is a scam, and should trigger red flags in your mind. You should look very closely at the other fees they are charging you, and ask yourself if they are legit.

Any reputable SEO would not be trying to sell you snake oil.

[Kristin]

There are only four major search engines, one of which does not even have a submission form (Ask). All of them will find your site on their own. This is the preferred method. How do they do this? By finding your site via a link on a site that is already in their index. That can be from a directory, a paid link, a one way link, reciprocal link or even a link on your web designer's portfolio page (if applicable).

Submit your site to directories, both free and paid and the main engines will find you.

David,

Where do I go to submit my site to free directories?

Thanks,
Kristin

[vayapues]

http://www.google.com/addurl/
http://search.yahoo.com/info/submit.html

[vayapues]

However, your best bet is still to work on getting inbound links. If you can get people to link to you, your site will get included in the search engines on its own, very quickly.

[vayapues]

what industry are you in? There are a number of free directories that are industry specific.

thomasnet is a good one for many industries.
yellow page websites are good.

Many sites will trade links with you, putting a link to your site on their website, in exchange for a reciprocal link back to them.

We average in the neighborhood of 10-20 new links to our site each day (day job site) just by going out and asking people if they will link back to us.

[David Wallace]

Do not under any circumstances pay a fee to have your website listed in directories. This is a scam, and should trigger red flags in your mind. You should look very closely at the other fees they are charging you, and ask yourself if they are legit.

Any reputable SEO would not be trying to sell you snake oil.
And what is wrong with paid directories like GoGuides.org, Best of the Web, JoeAnt, Skaffe, WoW, Uncover the Net... shall I go on?

You think people that run directories should just add sites for free? They don't have bills to pay like the rest of us?

That is a pretty bold statement to say that paid directories are a scam. I personally know a handful of directory owners and they are simply providing a service like anyone else. I also use directories from time to time and even own a small niche directory in which I charge for inclusion. I am not trying to scam anyone but simply want monetary compensation for my time, which I seem to have less and less of these days.

[David Wallace]

Where do I go to submit my site to free directories?

Strongest Links (http://www.strongestlinks.com/directories.php) has a pretty good list of directories - both paid and free. There are not many free directories left however. Many of the goods that do allow free submissions only accept them from their own editors. You would therefore have to apply as an editor or pay their inclusion fees.

[vayapues]

Hi David,

Not saying paid directories are a scam. I think they are excellent. I use several of them. They are a great way to drive traffic to your site. In fact, I actually run a paid directory for the shelving industry. (day job)

I was answering Kristin's question in relation to paying someone to submit your url to directories and search engines, which is a scam, since they will all let you submit your url for free. (the free ones anyway)

The (Submit your site to 4000 search engines for only $49.95) scam.

My apologies if my statement was unclear.

[Kristin]

what industry are you in? There are a number of free directories that are industry specific.

thomasnet is a good one for many industries.
yellow page websites are good.

Many sites will trade links with you, putting a link to your site on their website, in exchange for a reciprocal link back to them.

We average in the neighborhood of 10-20 new links to our site each day (day job site) just by going out and asking people if they will link back to us.

I manufacture a sports training aid that I invented. Do you know where I could find a free directory for sporting goods.

Thanks,
Kristin

[Kristin]

http://www.google.com/addurl/
http://search.yahoo.com/info/submit.html

So I can just go to these links that you gave me and submit my site? Is it a quick process?

Thanks,
Kristin

[Kristin]

Strongest Links (http://www.strongestlinks.com/directories.php) has a pretty good list of directories - both paid and free. There are not many free directories left however. Many of the goods that do allow free submissions only accept them from their own editors. You would therefore have to apply as an editor or pay their inclusion fees.

Since there are'nt many free directories left, would it be easier for me to submit my url to the search engines?

Thanks,
Kristin

[David Wallace]

Hi David,

Not saying paid directories are a scam. I think they are excellent. I use several of them. They are a great way to drive traffic to your site. In fact, I actually run a paid directory for the shelving industry. (day job)

I was answering Kristin's question in relation to paying someone to submit your url to directories and search engines, which is a scam, since they will all let you submit your url for free. (the free ones anyway)

The (Submit your site to 4000 search engines for only $49.95) scam.

My apologies if my statement was unclear.
Oh, gottcha. ;)

You should probably edit your post to say something like "don't pay a submission company any fees to submit your site to directories" cause it kind of sounds like you are raggin' on the paid directories themselves.

As for paying companies that actually offer a directory submission service, I see nothing wrong with that especially if the site owner simply does not have time to go from directory to directory submitting their site. I'm not referring to the "submit your site to 1000 directories for $99.99" offers but rather genuine services that will write professional descriptions, select appropriate categories, submit and then follow up to ensure everything went well.

[vayapues]

I manufacture a sports training aid that I invented. Do you know where I could find a free directory for sporting goods.

Thanks,
Kristin

I can't give a personal guarantee for these, since I just found them doing a google search for 'free sporting goods directory'

http://www.freesearching.com/sportinggoods.htm
http://www.kygallery.com/list/retailstores/sports.htm
http://wholesaledir.com/category/Sporting%20Goods/1/1

Also, as David points out, paid directories are a very good way to go, so long as you monitor it closely and make sure that you are making the return on your investment.

[Kristin]

what industry are you in? There are a number of free directories that are industry specific.

thomasnet is a good one for many industries.
yellow page websites are good.

Many sites will trade links with you, putting a link to your site on their website, in exchange for a reciprocal link back to them.

We average in the neighborhood of 10-20 new links to our site each day (day job site) just by going out and asking people if they will link back to us.

So I should email people who are in the same industry as myself and ask if they would like to exchange links with me?

Thanks,
Kristin

[David Wallace]

Since there aren't many free directories left, would it be easier for me to submit my url to the search engines?
You can but as we have all been saying, that does not guarantee you are going to get in their index. Personally, I believe search engines completely ignore the free submission forms. I think they are there so people won't bug them to death asking how they can get their sites indexed.

Get links, whether paid, free, link bait, etc. and you'll get indexed by the engines. Even 1 good link will help engines to find your site.

[vayapues]

You can but as we have all been saying, that does not guarantee you are going to get in their index. Personally, I believe search engines completely ignore the free submission forms. I think they are there so people won't bug them to death asking how they can get their sites indexed.

Get links, whether paid, free, link bait, etc. and you'll get indexed by the engines. Even 1 good link will help engines to find your site.

I got one good link from a site with a page rank of 7 (google's measurement of a sites popularity) pointing to a brand new site, and it shot it to the # 1 position for a competitive term in about two weeks.

Of course it doesn't happen that way every time, but as David says, one good link can go a long way.

[Kristin]

I got one good link from a site with a page rank of 7 (google's measurement of a sites popularity) pointing to a brand new site, and it shot it to the # 1 position for a competitive term in about two weeks.

Of course it doesn't happen that way every time, but as David says, one good link can go a long way.

Thanks a lot guys! That was very helpful info. One last thing; does it help your site if you have links to other sites, or only if the other sites have links to yours?

Kristin

[Robert_Charlton]

So I can just go to these links that you gave me and submit my site? Is it a quick process?

Thanks,
Kristin

Kristin - The Google and Yahoo submission urls that vayapues posted are both for major search engines, and, as David Wallace and I both suggested, for reasons we both explained, submission to these search engines is not likely to do you much good.

You really do need good quality inbound links to your site. It's hard to explain succinctly what that means. Here's a thread that provides a good basic introduction...

Link Building 101
http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=2616

And what is wrong with paid directories like GoGuides.org, Best of the Web, JoeAnt, Skaffe, WoW, Uncover the Net... shall I go on?

Regarding directories and their likely quality, the list of paid directories David Wallace posted in msg #11 is as good a starting list as you'll find. I frankly wouldn't waste my time with free directories, and I'd be careful about some of the paid ones.

Not all paid directories, though, will guarantee that they will list you, or will list you as submitted. You need to know what you're doing, and your site needs also to be of sufficient quality to merit a listing.

I also think it's not a bad idea to pay a professional who knows what he or she is doing to make your directory submissions for you. That said, as David Wallace suggests, "submission companies" are not a good way to go. You really need a good search engine optimizer or marketing company, and those are hard to find and to evaluate... OR, you've got to do a lot of reading and research on the forums and to be careful not to believe everything you read, and then to do it yourself.

Many sites will trade links with you, putting a link to your site on their website, in exchange for a reciprocal link back to them.

We average in the neighborhood of 10-20 new links to our site each day (day job site) just by going out and asking people if they will link back to us.

I think you need to be very careful with this approach. I can't imagine that 10-20 new links a day represents very many good quality links.

Your best option, in my opinion, is to create good quality content on your site, content that's good enough that people would bookmark it, and then ask for links. I personally favor one way inbound links. My clients link out to sites on the web based on their merits and usefulness to our site visitors.

So I should email people who are in the same industry as myself and ask if they would like to exchange links with me?...

You can also exchange links, but the links need to be relevant to your subject matter... to and from good quality sites. You will also need to be creative in whom you ask. Direct competitors won't link to you. Sites about fitness or about particular sports, though, might. Again, what good quality in fact is becomes a long discussion.

I'd recommend you do a lot of reading. There is no easy or cheap way, and I'd be wary of any approaches that suggest there is.

[vayapues]

Kristin - The Google and Yahoo submission urls that vayapues posted are both for major search engines, and, as David Wallace and I both suggested, for reasons we both explained, submission to these search engines is not likely to do you much good.

Robert, I agree. However, I posted those links in order to show that you could submit your website for free to these search engines, and also because Kristin asked for the links.

I also pointed out, as did you, that you do not need to submit to them, and that the best thing to do is to request in bound links.


You really do need good quality inbound links to your site. It's hard to explain succinctly what that means....

I think you need to be very careful with this approach. I can't imagine that 10-20 new links a day represents very many good quality links.


10-20 links every day is what we get for my work websites, where we sell shelving. Most of them are not reciprocated, but are from people who are willing to link to us. They are from within the industry, or related industries, or very often from the websites of satisfied customers, or from one of the many press releases we release each day. 10-20 a day is low in my opinion. You can get far more good quality links than that if you really work at it.

As far as reciprocating goes, there is still a lot of power in reciprocating links. The example I cited earlier where I got a link from a website with a PR of 7, which shot me to the top of a competitive term in a few weeks, is a good example. The website with the PR of 7 was well worth my reciprocating back to. And that website had absolutely nothing to do with my industry, yet its weight still pushed me to the top.

Likewise we have a website where we sell a small niche product. The dozens of lower PR sites that we have reciprocated links with has made a significant difference in the sites activity. The website sat for a year and a half before we got around to working on it. As other projects came to a close we began pushing the SEO efforts of that site. After working daily for a few weeks to get reciprocal links our traffic increased 10 fold.

So often we look at online marketing in terms of what will best help me in the search engines. This is in many ways a faulty approach. You should be looking at what will help me drive traffic to my site, and then, how can I convert the traffic into sales.

A healthy website IMHO should have upwards of 80-90 percent of its traffic coming from other sources besides the search engines. Reciprocating links is a great way to drive that traffic to your site. Thus the purpose of reciprocating links is not just to help you climb in the search engines, but for the value of the traffic that comes from the links themselves.

On average you should expect one visitor per link, per day. If you can get a thousand websites linking back to you, even if you have to reciprocate with all of them, that means that on average you should expect 1,000 new visitors to your website every single day. And with that many inbound links, you will be default do very well in the search engines.

Your website will begin to take on a life of its own.

On my kids websites, where I am currently getting in the range of 10-20 million monthly visitors, the number of new links added each day far exceed the number of new inbound links for my work websites. These are links that I am not actively seeking out, but are from people who find my websites, and link to them, because they like the websites.


Your best option, in my opinion, is to create good quality content on your site, content that's good enough that people would bookmark it, and then ask for links. I personally favor one way inbound links. My clients link out to sites on the web based on their merits and usefulness to our site visitors.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. Your website should be built to enhance the experience of your users.


You can also exchange links, but the links need to be relevant to your subject matter... to and from good quality sites. You will also need to be creative in whom you ask. Direct competitors won't link to you. Sites about fitness or about particular sports, though, might. Again, what good quality in fact is becomes a long discussion.

As pointed out, I agree that Google and others are trending this way. However, the example above of a site with a PR of 7 is a recent example. In the last 60 days. There is still much value in getting links from powerful websites, whether they are in the industry or not.

However, the more that you have from within your industry, without question the better off that you are.

I'd recommend you do a lot of reading. There is no easy or cheap way, and I'd be wary of any approaches that suggest there is.

The best thing you can do is just work at it. As Robert_Charlton has pointed out, seek out links from websites who have a similar interest in you. In fact, if you PM me, I will put a link to you from my kids sporting website. There are a number of sports hobby websites, little league websites, high school team home pages, and on and on who are willing to link if you ask.

Focus on getting links from websites where your customers are likely to see them. If you do this, the search engines will take care of themselves. Your traffic will increase as people come to your website directly from those websites that are linking to you. It will only take a few weeks or months after that for your website to be found by all the major search engines. (except Yahoo, which is as slow as a snail when it comes to finding new sites)

On a side note. When people find you in a search engine, they don't know you from Adam, and are less likely to trust you. However, if their high school baseball team's website is recommending you, they come to your website already trusting you, and are more likely to buy.

[Kristin]

Robert, I agree. However, I posted those links in order to show that you could submit your website for free to these search engines, and also because Kristin asked for the links.

I also pointed out, as did you, that you do not need to submit to them, and that the best thing to do is to request in bound links.

10-20 links every day is what we get for my work websites, where we sell shelving. Most of them are not reciprocated, but are from people who are willing to link to us. They are from within the industry, or related industries, or very often from the websites of satisfied customers, or from one of the many press releases we release each day. 10-20 a day is low in my opinion. You can get far more good quality links than that if you really work at it.

As far as reciprocating goes, there is still a lot of power in reciprocating links. The example I cited earlier where I got a link from a website with a PR of 7, which shot me to the top of a competitive term in a few weeks, is a good example. The website with the PR of 7 was well worth my reciprocating back to. And that website had absolutely nothing to do with my industry, yet its weight still pushed me to the top.

Likewise we have a website where we sell a small niche product. The dozens of lower PR sites that we have reciprocated links with has made a significant difference in the sites activity. The website sat for a year and a half before we got around to working on it. As other projects came to a close we began pushing the SEO efforts of that site. After working daily for a few weeks to get reciprocal links our traffic increased 10 fold.

So often we look at online marketing in terms of what will best help me in the search engines. This is in many ways a faulty approach. You should be looking at what will help me drive traffic to my site, and then, how can I convert the traffic into sales.

A healthy website IMHO should have upwards of 80-90 percent of its traffic coming from other sources besides the search engines. Reciprocating links is a great way to drive that traffic to your site. Thus the purpose of reciprocating links is not just to help you climb in the search engines, but for the value of the traffic that comes from the links themselves.

On average you should expect one visitor per link, per day. If you can get a thousand websites linking back to you, even if you have to reciprocate with all of them, that means that on average you should expect 1,000 new visitors to your website every single day. And with that many inbound links, you will be default do very well in the search engines.

Your website will begin to take on a life of its own.

On my kids websites, where I am currently getting in the range of 10-20 million monthly visitors, the number of new links added each day far exceed the number of new inbound links for my work websites. These are links that I am not actively seeking out, but are from people who find my websites, and link to them, because they like the websites.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Your website should be built to enhance the experience of your users.

As pointed out, I agree that Google and others are trending this way. However, the example above of a site with a PR of 7 is a recent example. In the last 60 days. There is still much value in getting links from powerful websites, whether they are in the industry or not.

However, the more that you have from within your industry, without question the better off that you are.


The best thing you can do is just work at it. As Robert_Charlton has pointed out, seek out links from websites who have a similar interest in you. In fact, if you PM me, I will put a link to you from my kids sporting website. There are a number of sports hobby websites, little league websites, high school team home pages, and on and on who are willing to link if you ask.

Focus on getting links from websites where your customers are likely to see them. If you do this, the search engines will take care of themselves. Your traffic will increase as people come to your website directly from those websites that are linking to you. It will only take a few weeks or months after that for your website to be found by all the major search engines. (except Yahoo, which is as slow as a snail when it comes to finding new sites)

On a side note. When people find you in a search engine, they don't know you from Adam, and are less likely to trust you. However, if their high school baseball team's website is recommending you, they come to your website already trusting you, and are more likely to buy.

Vayapues and Robert, thank you so much. That is priceless information to me. Vayapues, I'ts going to take about 10 days for my merchant account to be finished, as soon as it is I will PM you. Again, thank you so much for your time and generosity.

Kristin