Achieving Search Engine Ranking "Success"

[St0n3y]

We've begun a discussion internally within our office about what constitutes a genuine level of search engine ranking success. For the purpose of the conversation here lets leave aside click-thru's and increased sales (obviously an important factor) and discuss rankings alone.

With the new Yahoo and upcoming MSN we have more than one dominant search engine, each with its own algorithm. Lets consider the top 5 (Google, Yahoo, MSN, AOL, Ask/Teoma). How difficult do you find it to achieve top rankings on all top 5 search engines? Certainly it CAN be done, but what is the liklihood that it will on more competitive phrases?

Do top rankings on Google/Aol overshadow rankings on the other three to the point that you don't need them? If a top ranking is achieved on Yahoo, MSN and Ask, is that enough to compare to a top ranking on Google? At what point can you tell the client "we have succeeded" (assuming that you even have to tell the client this)? Or is a top ranking on all 5 engines the only genuine level of excellence?

I'm interested in hearing what everybody uses as a success metric in this regard.

[sugarrae]

"How difficult do you find it to achieve top rankings on all top 5 search engines?"

Depends on if you are trying to do it with one site or five (all unique, law abiding citizens), with four directing traffic to the fifth.

"Do top rankings on Google/Aol overshadow rankings on the other three to the point that you don't need them?"

Google definitely seems to drive more traffic, but Y and MSN seem to convert better across the board for me.

I would define search engine success as a lot of business coming in from the search engines. Total success would yes, probably be domination of the words that convert the best (and not neccessarily drive the most traffic) across all the engines. For me anyway ;)

[littleman]

It is more possible to rank across the board today more than it has ever been because all the current algos place too much weight on popularity. Sad really, because the best the engines can do is take on the persona of a kid in high school when evaluating quality.

"Oh that Jimmy he must be a great guy because everybody is always talking to him." Sad really, infamy can equal quality and authority today.

>level of excellence
It is all about making a living, nothing more. Right now it is possible to do that with Google, and Y, the rest is icing.

[St0n3y]

Great replies. I would think this wouldn't bee too much of a difficult question to answer so I'm surprised by the lack of response from the fourm regulars. Is a measurement of success a topic that some are just afraid to touch? Is there any definitive measure? Should there be a definitive measure? Or is SEO just so hit and miss that making a definitive measure seems illogical.

Anybody wish to step up to the plate and expand this conversation with your wisdom and insight?

[massa]

>How difficult do you find it to achieve top rankings on all top 5 search engines? Certainly it CAN be done, but what is the liklihood that it will on more competitive phrases?<

There are a lot of people in this industry a lot smarter than I am, so I'm probably not the best one to answer this.

For me, we do it everytime BUT, it takes a lot of work, focus, resources and a "DO NOT ACCEPT DEFEAT", kind of attitude. It is labor intensive, research intensive and expensive. We target clients with the absolute most competitive keywords on the planet because they are the ones most likely to be able to afford to play the organic game.

We succeed not because it's easy or because we're smarter than any one else. We succeed because we are willing to keep working when others have given up. There are probably less than 100 people on the whole planet that really can get multiple placements on multiple engines for terms like online casino, home loans or life insurance. The ones I have had the good fortune of meeting and/or working with as well as the ones I have reverse engineered, the thing we all seem to have in common is
#1 We don't seem to waster a lot of time in spam debates
#2. we work very hard at it, spend a lot of money doing it and don't give up until we win.

>Do top rankings on Google/Aol overshadow rankings on the other three to the point that you don't need them? <

Absolutely not. EVERY hit that converts, regrdless of the referrer, is worth as much as any other referrer. You need them all. If you don't get them, that means your competitor did.

>At what point can you tell the client "we have succeeded"<

That one is different with every client. The first thing we do with every new client is determine objectives and strategies. We agree on the definiton of success and tell them when we hit the number.

That said, my attitude is that you are never "done". There is always more placements to be had on more engines for more keywords. At what point do you tell a client, "there, you have made enough money, now you can stop paying me"? There are always more keywords to target, more engines to hit and more services to sell.

>what everybody uses as a success metric in this regard.<

For me, the success metric is
did the client renew this month?

I admit though that I probably look at it differently than some of my peers. My basic philosophy is that no one can steal one of my clients. If a client cancels, it is for one reason and one reason only. I did not do the job he hired me to do. Maybe I didn't spend the time to fully understand what the client really wanted. Maybe he expected more than I offered and the problem was mis-communication. Bottom line, all the excuses in the world does not change the fact that if one of my clients hires you, you did not take that client. I lost him.

[Chris Boggs]

I believe that it's only possible to achieve number one for all search engines if you are the indisputable authority on or proprietor of a particular keyword. One example would be "coca cola." Another could be "tomahawk missiles," but Jeeves messed me up by placing the #1 from the other 4 as #3...oh well you get the point.

I do agree with chrisnrae about other than Google performing better in terms of conversions...this seems like a strange phenomenon...

bottom line, unless you are the proprietor or worldly accpeted as the Number one source of info for a particular keyword/subject...it's nice to dream.

perhaps someone can show me a site that is number 1 for all engines for a particular commercial term? (I will prepare my printer for your source code :D )

[cyberlead]

Chris, It has been done, my team has done it for the last three years. Here's proof. Search the top 5 SEs for moisture meter(s).

[Nacho]

Search the top 5 SEs for moisture meter(s).

I'm getting professionalequipment.com in Google as #1 and moisturemeterstore.com in Yahoo! Search as #1.

It doesn't add up cyberlead, or am I missing something?

[cyberlead]

They are the same company, check the other SEs as well, and check meters plural

[sugarrae]

I think that cyberlead is achieving putting a single company at number one on all engines, but by doing it with multiple sites - as I mentioned above, that seems to be easier than getting the same url to take the top positions on all engines, unless, as you said, they are all deemed *the* authority on said phrase ;).

[Nacho]

Oh, I thought we were talking about achieving #1 with the same domain in all engines, which is really the BIG challange.

[NFFC]

>Search the top 5 SEs for moisture meter(s).

My baby [OK 7 year old] could rank for that.

>perhaps someone can show me a site that is number 1 for all engines for a particular commercial term?

There are a lot out there, more than we could imagine. I've printed the source too but it hasn't helped :)

Maybe its mostly about external factors?

[sugarrae]

LMAO, NFFC. Yea, it can be done for sure. But I think it is much easier to do with five sites - also leaves a bit more padding in case something happens to one.

[cyberlead]

Oh really, show me one YOU have actually done, talk is cheap

[seobook]

Oh, I thought we were talking about achieving #1 with the same domain in all engines, which is really the BIG challange.

for something like "casino" or "online casino" sure that is a big challenge, but most terms are not all that challenging if you are willing to invest the time and money.

[St0n3y]

I'm seeing a lot of good points raised. Sure #1 on all 5 CAN be done; no problem for not-so-competitive phrases. See 'chip processing equipment', 'metal chip processing', 'chip systems' to name a few. Lets talk about something a bit more difficult. Our primarily measure of difficulty is determined by looking at the authority level of competing sites, not just the number of searches returned.

SEO book says most terms are not that challenging should you invest the time and money... another excellent point. How many set their pricing to invest that kind of time and money into a project to acheive top 5 rankings accross the board for difficult phrases. And are the clients willing to invest that kind of time when most want to see results yesterday. Is it better to price for top rankings on a few engines or do you price for the big kahuna?

Obvioulsy there are so many variables in play, so lets assume you're competing against some strong authoritative sites, and you have a moderate pricing structure, where does success lie? I'm not saying you ever stop trying to improve a client's rankings, but at what point do you realize a level of success so that you can put less time, money and energy into client A so you can focus more time, money and energy on client B.

Or do you simply make sure your pricing is going to carry you full-steam, until you reach #1 accross the board?

[Chris Boggs]

first of all NFCC that did make me laugh, "my 7 yo could rank for that..." :D

One URL is definitely the topic, I could name a few companies with multiple URL's to target different SE's. Stony you bring up the heart of the matter...does someone have the money to target all SE's or not is the questions. Could it be done with one URL...I do think yes, perhaps its not a dream...if you have lots of "cake."

[St0n3y]

So its just a money issue, then? Charge less, expect less? I guess another question is, can it be done with 100% "white hat" optimization. i.e. can results be producted accross the board while complying to ALL search engine rules.

I still don't see the original question being answered, what is a level of acceptable success? Could/should there be some kind of standard in place that is an acceptable guidline? Many SEOs offer a performance guarantee, obvioulsy that puts them in a place where a certain standard must be met, is there something that could work industry-wide?

[Chris Boggs]

I still don't see the original question being answered, what is a level of acceptable success? Could/should there be some kind of standard in place that is an acceptable guideline? Many SEOs offer a performance guarantee, obviously that puts them in a place where a certain standard must be met, is there something that could work industry-wide?

Yes and we should all join SEMPO and make that happen! It is a very optimistic thought you have, but unfortunately I think that this industry is not yet mature enough to be able to make that happen. There is still a lot of "jostling for position" going-on I think, that is detracting from growth.

Also, this is a very dynamic industry, with changes being made everyday to the types of rules/algorythms we have to try and keep up-with. How long would it take to create laws that cannot be challenged? The U.S. Constitution itself still faces daily attempts to alter its guidelines...

Ethical standards, however, can be discussed and agreed-upon...but only in a formal setting such as that which SEMPO provides to us.

[St0n3y]

Well, I say we leave SEMPO out of the conversation and simply disucss this as SEO professionals. Does anybody work of an internal measure of success? Can top rankings be achieved on the top 5 engines for a single URL without having to dedicate too much time and/or resources into that achievement. What is the balance between achievment and costs for the average, yet difficult, keyword search?

[Chris Boggs]

so do you have another suggestion as to how to setup an industry standard? on this board perhaps? In terms of the lofty goal of an "industry-wide standard," who else could move towards this?

My opinion is that their should be a standard, but without an organization to ensure that, it will not be as effective.

As a SEM, what we can guarantee is that we will do our best to rank people for terms. However, the standards should be set in direct relation to the competition for the particular keyword.

something like: less than 500,000 competitors and you should get a top ten listing organically in Yahoo, Google and MSN within the contracted performance period.

500k to 1 million top 20, etc... something like that???

[massa]

>what we can guarantee is that we will do our best to rank people for terms<

NO NO NO. That is looking at it wrong. Anyone in the world can guarantee anything they want. I can guarantee you will grow wings and fly if I like. The trick is, what am I willing to do if you don't grow wings and will I actually do it.

I said in the Jimworld search engine forums years ago that giving a money back guarantee and actually giving the money back is not the same thing. When it comes to a guarantee, the gurantee is not nearly as important as the remedy and if that remedy actually gets performed.

There is nothing wrong with guaranteeing top 10 or 5 or even #1 as long as you make it clear what you will do if that does not happen. What then would determine ethics or honesty, would have nothing to do with the done-to-death, glaringly obvious, "no one can guarantee any position because you don't control the search engine", argument, individual ethics would be determined by you doing what you said you would do. Doing what you say you will do IS under your control and THAT is the essence of any guarantee.

>so do you have another suggestion as to how to setup an industry standard<

Could we not cut out the middlemen and just hire the church of scientology ?

[St0n3y]

Sure, if we were trying right this very moment to set an industry standard it couldn't be done without an organization such as SEMPO. I'm simply more interested in the discussion of ideas, thoughts and opinions. I'm not a SEMPO member so for me this is a conversation for the forums.

As for judging by competitors, I find this not to be the most accurate level of difficulty. You can easily get past 500,000 "competitors" that may not contain many "authoritative" site. I've delt with clients targeting keywords that have very few competitors, however the top 10 sites are all very authoritataive, containing thousands of backlinks, etc. That makes things a bit more difficult.

But I definately like the thought process.

Our firm is in the process of formulating some scores based on keyword rankings, search engine marketshare, search engine delivery/conversion, statistical click probability, etc. These initial formulations have nothing to do with difficulty, though that is something that we plan to factor in as well.

We are trying, internally, to develop a mathematical measure of a successful optimization campaign.

Could we not cut out the middlemen and just hire the church of scientology ?

Can we do that?

[Chris Boggs]

I like that idea massa, as well as your clarification of what should be a guarantee. You are right that if we cannot be specific, we are just another talking sales head or polititian.

Stoney good point about "degree of difficulty." As I mentioned in another thread, there is a trend in "authoritative results" recently that seem to contain many backlinks as well as often a directory -type structure within them. This is a thread that worries me because of we cannot offer top-ten for legitimate search phrases (within a reasonable-non 200 hour-budget), that leaves us with only being able to go with PPC ort buying space in one of those "directories."

Is the scroring system that you speak of for client or organizational-use? for keywords or SEO/SEM's?

[St0n3y]

They scoring system we are developing is going to be worked into the Reporting Suite we offer our clients. It'll be one of the many other reports we offer in regard to their campaign. It is also being used (in its beta form) as in internal measurement so see which accounts need more work, in what specific areas, than other accounts.

[paulatukcamera]

The question started off as "Lets consider the top 5 (Google, Yahoo, MSN, AOL, Ask/Teoma). How difficult do you find it to achieve top rankings on all top 5 search engines? Certainly it CAN be done, but what is the liklihood that it will on more competitive phrases?"

I think it can be done for even "on-line casinos", but don't expect a precise answer from me yet!

I have through trial and error got my own website into a top ranking in 5 search engines for "camera shops" which I think is a fairly generic term. However it is not top of the terms that people in business look for, so I have been playing around with "used cameras" . In Google I have so far managed about No 6 for the world and no 2 for the UK. If the other search engines could be persuaded to update themselves with a little more regularity, I am certain I will make some progress in them, but it does take time. Three years in the case of "Camera Shops" and nearly a year for "used cameras" in Google.

Interestingly, I find one of the secrets for progress in Google is regular updates - I now find I get a thrice weekly visit & a subsequent update. This rockets some of my more unlikely (& totally uncommercial) terms I have been playing with up the rankings rather quickly (try Iloca - obscure maker of cameras)

Now to have a bash at the term Digital Cameras! Look in three years for signs of success or failure!

Secrets? None really, just the usual things that you all know. The problem is that it really is totally uncommercial, its far too time consuming and "fiddly" to do for reward & profit

Paul

[St0n3y]

Are there any figures that show the % of overlaped top rankings across the top 5 or so SEs?