I have a two year old mortgage website with a PR6. When I enter the key search terms important to my business, Google puts me on Page 7. The companies ranked #1 and #2 both have PR4. They have 15 inbound links. I have 16. (Their inbound links rank a little higher.) The search terms are not competitive, because they are specific to my metro market area. My meta tags use the primary search term I want to rank for. The page title uses it too. The page text uses the important terms as well, but is written for my mortgage prospects and not search engines. (No spam.) I have added a lot of informative content to my site. All interior pages share a PR5, and have meta tags, page titles and good page text. Why don't I rank better? I tried changing the meta description and fell from page 3 to page 7. The URL is www.seattle-mortgage-loans.com. Any ideas?

Don't get too hung up on the Page Rank that you see - it is not reliable. Checking backlinks at Yahoo shows you have 35 links, you top competitor has 120. Google backlinks does not show all links, hasn't for a long time. I did not look at your site so based only on this, I woud say you need more links.

Thank you for your reply, JohnW. Is link popularity all there is to building good Google ranking? I've added lots of content, taken care with my page copy and meta tags. My competitors have less of everything except links. And what good is Page Rank if it doesn't relate to Page Ranking? :mad:

Is link popularity all there is to building good Google ranking?No, definitely not. Google uses over 100 (have heard 1000) different factors in ranking.

And what good is Page Rank if it doesn't relate to Page Ranking?Nobody outside Google (and likely only a select few within) know what the true PageRank of a page is. Then, as mentioned above, PR is only one of many factors used.

Thank you for your reply, JohnW. Is link popularity all there is to building good Google ranking? I've added lots of content, taken care with my page copy and meta tags. My competitors have less of everything except links. And what good is Page Rank if it doesn't relate to Page Ranking? :mad:

Link popularity is a minor factor in ranking at Google but inbound links using relevant anchor text is a big factor at Google. Good content and a well optimized page are important but anchor text will trump them every time.

If your rankings are not what you would like work on getting relevant anchor text links pointing to the page that is not ranking well.

PageRank is a small ranking factor but IMO is more of a public relations exercise than a serious ranking factor.

Thank you all for taking the time from your busy schedules to answer basic questions. Even your answers are not completely clear. That's why you have all the green boxes, and I only have one.

What does "IMO" mean?
Do I understand correctly? Let's say I want to rank highly for the term "Seattle Mortgage". A link from another site that says "www.seattle-mortgage-loans.com" is not as powerful as linking the words "seattle mortgage" to my website?
Do I understand correctly? Page rank is hugely important for Google in ranking the recipient of an outgoing link. (A link received from a PR8 page is more helpful than a link from a PR2.) However, it means squat to the owner of the high ranking page itself the owner is trying to rank highly for a given term. Is this right?
Finally, if I have understood you correctly, what I should be doing instead of adding content is seeking good links, and making sure the hyperlinks are text based. Right?
Thank you Mel, Dave, and JohnW for taking the time to help me.

IMO=in my opinion
#2 yes
#3 try not to worry about PR unless it is toolbar grey, if so try to figure out why, avoid linking to bad neighborhoods, banned site etc.
#4 exactly right

PageRank is not hugely important to Google in any respect to rankings, but is a very minor factor.

Nobody outside Google knows what the true PR of a page is and how important it is.

Sooooo.....Page Rank is not important for incoming or outgoing links in helping with ranking pages for specific terms. How Google selects which web pages will rank well for individual terms is based mostly on linkage; from who, and how it's done. Is that what you guys are saying? Starbucks coffee is headquartered here in Seattle. They have a PR6 and so do I. I'm a mortgage broker and my wife is a real estate agent. That's our company. I guess that proves your point about PR irrelevance. Why does Google bother with PR at all?

I cannot speak for others, but all I'm saying is "Nobody outside Google knows what the true PR of a page is and how important it is." This is a fact.

What we are shown by Google on the Toolbar is not real PR.

>based mostly on linkage; from who, and how it's done.

The collective "from who" part is kinda-sorta what PR is all about. IMO PR is very important. The problem is that you never know the real PR because you can't trust the toolbar, which is rounded-off and infrequently updated. That's why we say it does not matter, because the way it is displayed, it's basically broken. but you can be sure G uses the real PR internally. PR is an important part of how it all works. To try and clarify your thinking: forget PR but make sure you get links from important pages.

The how-its-done part is important too, like you said. The best how-to is get links that come from pages that are clearly related to your kw theme, make sure the kws are used in and around the anchor. mix it up some to keep it natural but stay on target.

Googles rankings are based on many things (Google says more than 100) but if you are involved in doing practical SEO you will soon find that while you can sometimes rank well for non competitive terms (and hardly anything worth targeting in the mortgage or real estate fields is not very competitive) based on page content, when it comes to the competitive terms you have to use anchor text to rank well.

Why does Google bother with Pagerank at all? Thats the $64 question, but IMO its a diversion to keep us busy thinking about things that don't really matter - or perhaps their Public Relations people have decided that it is a valuable term which is well branded and thus should be kept in the public view.

I get offers to exchange links all the time from webmasters, often from the Far East. They either have sites that don't relate at all to my business (welding equipment and mortgage don't share many keywords) or don't have much useful purpose except to offer a directory of services. If these have a PR3 or better, are they worth the time? Up until now, I've always said "no".

If these have a PR3 or better, are they worth the time?No IMO.

Only link to pages that are of use to your site visitors and you feel safe in doing so. If you would not link, if SEs didn't exist, then don't link simply because they do.

You guys are SO patient. Thank you for your help. Two weeks ago, in an effort to improve my Google ranking, I changed my meta description. I changed it from a natural language description to "Seattle mortgage, Seattle mortgage broker, Seattle mortgage loans for zero down
seattle mortgage homes loans for borrowers with less than perfect credit." I was trying to improve my ranking for the term "Seattle Mortgage". In a matter of days, my ranking fell from 23 to 65. Was I guilty of spamming? If I was spamming and change it back, will I be forgiven?

I doubt if that had anything to do with it.

I changed it from a natural language description to "Seattle mortgage, Seattle mortgage broker, Seattle mortgage loans for zero down
seattle mortgage homes loans for borrowers with less than perfect credit." I was trying to improve my ranking for the term "Seattle Mortgage". In a matter of days, my ranking fell from 23 to 65. Was I guilty of spamming?Were you guilty of spamming, yes. Was this the reason for you fall, perhaps.

Many are of the opinion that Meta descriptions and keywords are not used by Google, I'm not and think they are. How much weight is placed on them, again nobody knows, but it's all part of the BIG picture.

Does Google discriminate against sites that are edited in FrontPage?

No, highly unlikely IMO.

>Many are of the opinion that Meta descriptions and keywords are not used by Google, I'm not and think they are.

Yeah, I'm one of them. I agree the meta description is too spammy, especially for some other SEs, but I doubt that it matters to G.

>Does Google discriminate against sites that are edited in FrontPage?

Probably not on purpose, if they do. Clean code does seem to work better.

No Google will rank pages edited in FrontPage with no problem.

When you are thinking about the content of your header remember that the page title is almost always used as the SERP description and that many search engines may use the meta description as the SERP description, so both of these should be written to rank well but to also read well together and convince the viewers of the SERP to click through to your page. This is why many pages on lower positions often make more sales than higher ranking sites.

In the case of Google I recommend using a Header tag at the top of the page that will read well as a SERP description and which uses the targeted keyword(s) followed by an opening paragraph which expands on the header.

While I seriously doubt that using a set of four different keywords in the meta description qualifies as spamming or that this was what caused your rankings to drop, if that was the only change made to your page and the ranking immediately dropped, then by all means change it back.

If this does not cause it to go back to the old ranking you can be pretty sure that was not the cause of the ranking drop.

Thank you again for all your help and advice. I have changed my meta description back to natural language without repeating "seattle mortgage" 5 times. All you guys have done is convince me I may not be using my time to good advantage. This is a LOT of work. I do mortgages. It's not a bad living. I'd love to hand off the SEO stuff; link exchanges, tweaking meta tags, page titles, etc. Would it cost mega bucks. I spend $1,000 a month on Overture a month, and get leads that eventually result in 5 to 10X that. Could a good SEO guy provide the same results for a similar cost? How long would it take? How can I tell a good SEO guy from someone who doesn't cause more harm than good?

There is no doubt that a good SEO can get the same or better traffic as an Overture campaign, but IMO it will take more than three months at $1000 per month to gain high rankings for mortgage terms.

In a short term analysis your Overture campaign may result in better ROI (especially if you also use Adwords) but over the period of a year or longer SEO may well show a better ROI.

High ranking for mortgage terms are quite competitive, but not unobtainable.

How to choose a good SEO is perhaps similiar to how you would choose a good business partner:

Track record with both his own site and clients sites.
Ability to work well together.
Cost effectiveness.
Integrity.

PPC and advertising campaigns are best used (by all) to incease income. It matters not how well you rank, you can still incease income via a well thought-out PPC campaign such as AdWords.

If SEO experts are expensive, would a cost effective approach simply be to contact mortgage brokers out of my area and ask if they want to exchange links? That could be done by budgeting a couple hours a week. Is that most of what an SEO expert would do?

If you drop me a PM Paul, I will send you a link to SEO that is squeaky clean and one of the very few I would trust with my own site, if I were to use one.

I was buying Google Adwords but dropped them. They were costing more than Overture and I wasn't sure the return was there. It was harder for me to measure than the ultra simple Overture system. Both Mel and Dave have mentioned Adwords. How do the two systems compare in terms of cost effectiveness?

Sure that would be a great approach if you can channel some of your PR to a links page and especially if you do more than just provide a link to them, but do a brief writeup on each company and put the links on the anchor text as it occurs naturally in the text.

I would cast my net a bit wider if I were you and solicit links from realtors, mortgage brokers, and anyone who had a link to mortgages or real estate. For instance home insurance brokers, valuers and surveyors, etc.

A good SEO should be doing much more than that, but one of his primary goals should be to get you anchor text links. In addition he should be researching more keywords for you, looking at your site architecture to see in there could be improvements there, reviewing your page content for effectiveness not only in ranking but sales, and more.

How do the two systems compare in terms of cost effectiveness?For me, AdWords is head and shoulders above all others. Mainly due to the popularity of Google and the total flexibility it offers. Oh, it's also cheaper :)

Welcome to the forums, Paul.

PPC has its place, both AdWords and Overture, but there's a difference in approach from organic search, so let's take a little closer look at the site in that respect.

First, you're #1 for this at Google:

allinanchor:seattle mortgage loans (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2004-23%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=allinanchor%3Aseattle+mortgage+loans&btnG=Search)

and then also in quotes

allinanchor:"seattle mortgage loans" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2004-23%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=allinanchor%3A%22seattle+mortgage+loans%22&btnG=Search)

Same thing, right on top - but that isn't hard to figure out with the exact phrase being the domain name, hyphenated.

What you *don't* want is all the anchor text to be 100% identical. You also don't want 100% of your inbound links going to your homepage. Most yes, but definitely but not all of them. A couple of quality inbounds with proper anchor text pointing at interior pages that relate to the main keywords can do a lot.

One thing I noticed right away is that the entire site is intensely focused on that one phrase. Even on a local level, anything real estate is killer competitive; it's also very targeted and lucrative with local and everyone wants it. But people don't always search using the same keywords or phrases or type of terminology.

real estate loans
home loans
real estate financing
buy a home with no money down
for those who watch TV infomercials, "creative financing"
etc, etc, etc.

The site needs more semantic diversity than it's now got; there are many, many more phrases that could be targeted to bring traffic from organic search, and it would be more like the "natural language" type of usage which the engines seem to be rewarding these days. Excessive repetition is far from necessary; the search engines are pretty darn good at putting phrases together by picking out the keywords sprinkled throughout pages in a natural manner.

You can see for yourself by doing the searches and taking a look through the cache at sites with highlighting on.

Sometimes it can take a little bit of de-optimizing to give a site a boost. ;)

I was buying Google Adwords but dropped them. They were costing more than Overture and I wasn't sure the return was there. It was harder for me to measure than the ultra simple Overture system. Both Mel and Dave have mentioned Adwords. How do the two systems compare in terms of cost effectiveness?

Granted that the Adwords system may be a bit more complicated to tweak, but there is simply much more traffic available there than on Overture. You might want to look at at software program to help you manage your Adwords campaigns.

What you *don't* want is all the anchor text to be 100% identicalCannot say I agree with that as a broad statement. If you sell apples use apples. By all means mix it up when it makes sense to, but not for fear of being punished.

Some of largest businesses in the World would not rank, where they do, if it was harmful. That is, Microsoft, Harley Davidson, all SEs the list in loooooong.

What you *don't* want is all the anchor text to be 100% identical

show me one site that has 100% identical anchor text and I will show you a spam site..

It's unnatural linkage which is a big NO NO and no website even if it only sold APPLES would have the anchor text apples...

you would get people linking for more info click here or dave's website or buy apples here if you know what I mean


DaveN

Were you guilty of spamming, yes.
Not yes, maybe -- and more likely not.

Only Google can tell you if a site has actually been banned for spamming. You haven't. I can see at least two of your pages listed (http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.seattle-mortgage-loans.com). They wouldn't be listed, if you were banned. Also, your home page is a PR6 -- that's another sign you've not been banned nor necessarily tagged as a spammer. Not a guarantee -- Google can do anything behind the scenes -- but fingerprints that you've been tagged for spamming aren't there.

The meta description repetition, I doubt like some others that this really would have gotten you into trouble. Not good -- but not really that big an issue.

Instead, those pages I listed above? You had only two -- the rest were not show because they were considered near duplicates of each other. Here the full list (http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.seattle-mortgage-loans.com&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&filter=0) of your pages. Go through them, and you'll see many aren't remotely near duplicates. Nonetheless, for whatever reason, Google's flagging them that way.

To me, that's more a Google indexing screwup than anything you can fix. But looking that the content of your pages suggests a bigger problem. You want to be foudn for Seattle mortgage loans, but your site isn't really much about that. From what I can see, you have some generic info about getting a loan -- but not much that's really specific to Seattle.

Hey, I know after reviewing what is tops in Google for that term, not a lot is necessarily anything better. But that's an opportunity. Isn't there anything unique to getting mortage loans in Seattle that you can cover? Perhaps you can touch on things like mortage loan protection and Seattle-specific issues, such as flooding. Or special tax breaks for those in Seattle. Or how property taxes in Seattle work in relation to loans. Try turning your site into an actual resource on this topic with some real information.

show me one site that has 100% identical anchor text and I will show you a spam site..

It's unnatural linkage which is a big NO NO and no website even if it only sold APPLES would have the anchor text apples...

you would get people linking for more info click here or dave's website or buy apples here if you know what I mean


DaveN

You have piqued my curiousity Dave. What term would you suggest as anchor text for a site that sold only apples?? :confused:

Seems to me that the most natural linkage in the world for such a site would be, well .... apples.

First of all, let me gush. I have been subscribing to Search Engine Watch for several years. It's been my guide to creating my business website. To get advice from Danny Sullivan was so exciting, I had to run and tell my wife!

Danny, I don't know how I can make a national product local. Loans are loans. Because they are sold to secondary markets, they must meet national standards. There aren't many "local twists" to the loan business. A loan in Seattle is the same as one in Tampa. (And no, Danny, we don't flood much. That's why God invented all our local rivers and lakes. :) .) Danny, I promise to put my thinking cap on and find SOMETHING different that's local.

You've suggested, Danny. I add some useful content. I have tripled the size of my site in the last couple months. However, the pages I've added all describe national programs. Again, local loans in all 50 states meet national guidelines.

Marcia and DaveN, Mel may be right. Using Overtures search term tool, at least 1/2 of all searches for the business I want use "seattle mortgage". Two other terms, "seattle mortgage loans" and "seattle mortgage broker", are running 10 lengths behind the lead horse. I've spent hours using the Overture tools and have identified 60 terms. Most have never received a single hit. My site is about "apples". (seattle mortgage). That's how people look for me.

I don't want to be a spammer. If you still think I need to be about "farming", "food" and "health", I'll sure consider it. You guys didn't earn all those green squares for nothing!

I had to run and tell my wife!
Now I have to tell my wife how excited you were :)

Danny, I don't know how I can make a national product local. Loans are loans.
I know -- it's a tough challenge. But if you can find a way, you'll definitely distinguish yourself.

If not loans, then things related to people who want loans in Seattle. Which would be real estate agents, information on schools, what the properties prices are doing and so on.

In particular, you're going to find real estate agents will be somewhat after the same people you want. So get link building. Head over to the search engines, see who is coming up tops for "seattle real estate" and start swapping links if you can do it. I'm going to guess you've got a few bricks-and -mortar real estate agents you work with already. Perhaps they can help contribute. Anyone seeking a loan from you might also be interested in property.

The other thing is that you haven't mentioned if you are doing paid listings. If not, try them. Do a range, see what converts or brings traffic, and that's also a good test about what terms to target for organic.

Mel Apples...

If you just sell apples, most sites will have a USP ( unique selling point )

if I had an apple site I would create apple recipes and use those of back links as well ..
so keywords would be :

apples
apple pie
apple pie recipe
apple crisp
apple crisp recipe
apple orchard
apple cake
red apple
green apple
granny smith ( etc )
apple strudel
Dutch apple pie
traditional apple pie


SeattlePaul pretty much agree with what Danny said, example I was out last night with a guy that works at a spy base in the UK, he is NSA trained in interrogation and we found that we both work in the same way ... it's all about getting people to say or click what you want them too and everyone needs to be taken down a different path,

just try and think about how many different types of people there are and what their needs are, do they need a quick loan, short term / long term is it a consolidation loan etc etc then work the paths out !

DaveN

I hear what you are saying Dave but the idea of changing the focus of the site from selling apples to providing apple recipes is IMO not necessary at all.

IMO if you sell apples there is nothing wrong with having links that use apples as the keyword in anchor text. No need to change the focus of the site just to satisfy some percieved notion about search engines which may or may not be correct.

Do you suppose that those individuals who are clicking on apple pie recipies are in the market to buy a bushel of apples from me?

Mel and Dave, while I intuitively agree with you that it may not be a big business booster, it won't take that long to create a page with an Apple Crisp Recipe. I also plan to create a "Seattle Mortgage" page. I thought that my home page was the one that would handle that for me, but I'm getting the sense from Danny, DaveN, Marcia that Google will find a way of directing people to my site even if it's to interior pages titled "seattle mortgage loan", "seattle mortgage broker" and "seattle mortgages for people who live in flood zones". (A Danny Sullivan original!)

My question is still linkage. All of you agree that I need more links. (I'm outgunned 120 to 35, according to JohnW.) All I have ever asked for is links to my home page. (www.seattle-mortgage-loans.com) It never occured to me to ask for a link to an interior page, nor to request a link using natural language. Are there guidelines? i.e. 50% to the index page, 10% to 4 others?

Do you suppose that those individuals who are clicking on apple pie recipies are in the market to buy a bushel of apples from me?

hell yer ... it's a USP ... why not try apple x or apple y these are best in a tradional apple pie but use apple z for dutch apple pie ... etc


DaveN

Let me add that the backlink numbers I gave were Yahoo numbers, I suggest to also look at backlinks for each of your top competitors from other SEs like msn, teoma and G, remove the dups and then you will have a more complete count. Yahoo does not have them all, I suggested Y only to illustrate a point.

>Are there guidelines? i.e. 50% to the index page, 10% to 4 others?

The answer is to get however many you need, kw by kw, page by page. You probably don’t have tools to automate this but the idea is to look at all of the links for your top competitors to see how many of the links have the kws. That will give a rough idea of what is needed.

Let me add that the backlink numbers I gave were Yahoo numbers, I suggest to also look at backlinks for each of your top competitors from other SEs like msn, teoma and G, remove the dups and then you will have a more complete count. Yahoo does not have them all, I suggested Y only to illustrate a point.

I apologize for not understanding. Is a backlink an incoming link to a given page? How badly would I be off if I just used Yahoo to begin?

Are there guidelines? i.e. 50% to the index page, 10% to 4 others?

The answer is to get however many you need, kw by kw, page by page. You probably don’t have tools to automate this but the idea is to look at all of the links for your top competitors to see how many of the links have the kws. That will give a rough idea of what is needed.

Let me understand you better. If my competitors have 120 incoming links (backlinks?) for a given term to a given page, then is it fair to say I would need at least 120 links to my page to have a chance of ranking as well as they do?

I estimate I could at least double my annual business by getting a top Google ranking on just three major search terms. Would increasing incoming links to the primary pages for those three terms be the best use of the time I have available to optimize my website? In other words, SEO is not my main job and I can't do everything. Should I work on getting good links first to the exclusiong of creating new pages, changing tags, titles and copy? (I already have a PR6 and a website with more content than my higher ranked competitors.)

>Is a backlink an incoming link to a given page?

yes

>How badly would I be off if I just used Yahoo to begin?

better than just Google. The new MSN is pretty good too.


>If my competitors have 120 incoming links (backlinks?) for a given term to a given page, then is it fair to say I would need at least 120 links to my page to have a chance of ranking as well as they do?

All things being equal, yes. But all things are not equal. The PR, title, kw content and the number of other out-links of the page each link is coming from, is going to be a factor. The content and PR of your page(s) matters. So if you get better quality links, less may be needed. Or vice versa.

>Would increasing incoming links to the primary pages for those three terms be the best use of the time

I have not really looked at your site so I don’t know what else may be important, or even critical. But yes it may make sense in your case to conquer 3 of them to start. Don’t forget to use a few internal links in the same manner.

>to the exclusiong of creating new pages, changing tags, titles and copy?

Links are good but it helps to have them pointed to optimized pages ;-)

Great thread, partly because of your enthusiasm and partly because of the (usual) quality help from the SEW regulars.

I estimate I could at least double my annual business by getting a top Google ranking on just three major search terms. Would increasing incoming links to the primary pages for those three terms be the best use of the time I have available to optimize my website? In other words, SEO is not my main job and I can't do everything. Should I work on getting good links first to the exclusiong of creating new pages, changing tags, titles and copy? (I already have a PR6 and a website with more content than my higher ranked competitors.)

You've essentially answered your most of your own questions here :)

Instead of asking "How does a SE drive traffic to my website?" or "How do I optimise my site for a SE?", try to think along the lines of "How will SEO add to my bottom line?"

Is it through higher conversion of traffic into leads or through sheer volume? A combination of both?

In the dark ages we'd try to build pages for (rather primitive and therefore easily manipulated) SE algorithms, but since SEs these days are geared towards relevance, these SEs are being herded towards applied human semantics - essentially how humans think and interact - and thus it is only natural that we should be building pages for how SEs THINK users search. There may not seem to be much of a difference between the two at the moment but it certainly helps clients/partners of mine to distinguish the way SEO should and will be approached now and in the future.

I hope that helps you in understanding how to tackle SEO for your site. For example, when we talk about backlinks, don't worry that you seem grossly 'outgunned' and whether a certain % of links should point to your index page or sub-index pages etc. Instead, concentrate on the few KWs that generate the majority of your traffic. Build pages with quality inbound and outbound links, optimised titles, anchor text and content for those KWs (As with any time management, the 80/20 rule (http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a/Pareto081202.htm) is a good place to start). Ultimately, even if you have 120 backlinks and have a higher SERP than your competitor, what you really want (I assume) is to convert those clicks into genuine leads.

Don't neglect the quality and relevant content that will deliver those leads to you.

It's basic stuff I know, but is regularly regurgitated around here (at work) :)

Edited: For grammar :rolleyes: