suppose i have a links page, and i use something like arelis to find reciprocal links. suppose my links page is framed, and hence hte links page is not mydomain.com/links.html but rather is actually on some free host or some other random host. would this mean that my links would actually count as one way links?

personally i dont like the idea of reciprocal linking to begin with, and i think its value will continue to fall. but i'd be interested to hear others thoughts as to whether or not this strategy would work.

suppose i have a links page, and i use something like arelis to find reciprocal links. suppose my links page is framed, and hence hte links page is not mydomain.com/links.html but rather is actually on some free host or some other random host. would this mean that my links would actually count as one way links?

personally i dont like the idea of reciprocal linking to begin with, and i think its value will continue to fall. but i'd be interested to hear others thoughts as to whether or not this strategy would work.

There are a few problems with this...

1. when a page is resident on a different host - and that goes down you would have a 404 error - and the potential of link partners removing their link because they think you removed the page.

2. when and if the page 'orphaned from the frame' appears in backlinks - the gig is up - and likely many will see this as being defrauded and remove your link.

3. I assume that the 'frame' use would be to hide the fact that it is elsewhere - many who would appreciate the exchange - would likely appreciate framesets and can read the references - you could spent tons of time requesting links but get few responses.

4. Hidden agendas often backfire where the word gets out and then you spend time and zero rewards.

If you don't like link exchanges - well -- don't exchange - pay for them.

#1 i'm not concerned with, servers go down all the time and it is simply a part of internet reality.

for #2, i could use use a robots.txt file to block the framed page from search engines altogether, right? would that create any problems? if not, i suppose that introduces a simpler version of this strategy, which would be to simply put the robots.txt file to block my links page thus creating the illusion of a non-reciprocol link.

#3 is a trivial concern, i dont think many people will notice it is framed and even fewer will think negatively of it. seo is still a somewhat obscure science/art and in some industries the opportunity to just waltz on in to the number one spot is still readily available.

#4 is my main concern. is there any sort of evidence of this not working -- has it been tried before? any horror stories?

i wouldn't do it on 90% of sites simply because i dont like links pages and think that they can often result in more people leaving your site than are coming in. there are, though, a few scenarios where something like this would be great -- if in fact it works.

IF I may make a better suggestion (you truly need to consider that 'like you' most people don't like giving up anything to get links - I wouldn't discount their motives to be 100% like yours)

Setup a directory [there are tons of free scripts online] with your website's main navigational links in the directory design.

Include a 'submit url' on your mainpage.

The mainpage link ensures the directory gets crawled regularly and is also a primary requirement for many people that seek link exchanges.

In the returning reciprocal links dialogue box have that url going to the directory mainpage (not your website mainpage) this way you are inducing the merits people want from an exchange and the main navigational in the directory transfers PageRank, weight, and relevancy direct to your secondary pages giving your website multiple points for high quality (rather than just one [normally just your mainpage].

You will be gaining more than you lose - plus the added value of not needing to seek 'all link exchanges' they will come to you, and do all the work.

Nice fathom, and refreshing! It's been harder to find good linking potentials in some topic areas lately, so many out there are getting mingy about giving links that are worth anything.

If they have great sites you'd link to anyway you can start to feel hesitant about giving them anything worthwhile. I've seen so many like that lately, and often they include a bunch of people all giving each other virtually worthless links, afraid to give and seeming to get the same back in return. They're really missing it and end up all losing out.

can often result in more people leaving your site than are coming in. there are, though, a few scenarios where something like this would be great -- if in fact it works.
Sometimes it can surprise you by having one of those link pages rank for something unexpected, and bring you traffic for your own site you wouldn't have otherwise had.

I've got one like that, for example, with a link to someone that's been up for over a year, and the person isn't even reciprocating. I'm now starting to see traffic for it - no problem sending them some traffic, I linked because its a totally great site. I'll be adding that product line to my site and link to my own page with a featured link at the top, so it's no loss and I'm sure it's brought me visitors for the related products I've got. I don't watch it that closely, it all seems to work out. Plus, I dropped them a note and they'll be putting up a link back this coming month after Christmas rush - and that site is a quality one to get a link from.

Sometimes generosity has its rewards. I've got a number of links up to people that I gave one way. A few months ago I put up a new site that was related, made contact and had links to the new one within the day. It may not work in all markets, but in some it can be a matter of developing friendly linking relationships with people.

BTW, there is nothing I absolutely HATE more than pursuing links; if only it were a perfect world where people would just link because they surf and find sites they like. But you may lose some really good opportunities if you don't make sure you've got something you're offering. Savvy people can tell, and they do look.

Someone wise once suggested people be careful about trying to increase authority status of a site at the expense of hub status. It's worth thinking about and considering.

BTW, there is nothing I absolutely HATE more than pursuing links; if only it were a perfect world where people would just link because they surf and find sites they like. But you may lose some really good opportunities if you don't make sure you've got something you're offering. Savvy people can tell, and they do look.

Someone wise once suggested people be careful about trying to increase authority status of a site at the expense of hub status. It's worth thinking about and considering.

Another wise person said (I think it was NFFC) "how I love the game". The web was never meant for commercial use... Newspapers, Radio, TV and most other of today's more traditional advertising media - were never conceive for commerical use - but with any new innovation comes new opportunity to generate profit and while you, I or anyone else may "absolutely HATE" a specific aspect - if you don't play the game - you don't get any rewards.

People can disagree with that all they wish but when you are not a corporate giant you must do what must be done to get ahead.

A directory - isn't a full encompassing solution... I actually use a few to perform individual tasks as each variation has it's own merits.

1. totally free - there are numerous 'only free' lists out there that if you get included you can capture 10 - 200 submissions a day... and the end of the submission process - the thank you statement includes a list of reciprocal directories to submit to...

2. the reciprocal directory captures about 10% of the free directory submitters. and adding a list of PPI on these at the end is the next step.

3, With forehought a PPI directory can be a powerful aggregation tool plus an extra revenue - which the revenue can be used to paid for PPI submissions on #1, then #2, etc. taking each resource to the next level... getting more free submissions, getting more recips, getting more PPI, getting more revenue: and

4. hiring 'paid-for' editors to accommodate the workload.

But you do need to get by the 'I don't like it' - and play the game. Many people say PPI directories are rubbish - but that's what Yahoo is and unfortunately people pay to list there.

We can say 'well Yahoo isn't an intentional manipulation of PageRank' (or in a special class) - well what makes them special?

The fact that they played the game of the web early and now a leader is the answer.

if you don't play the game - you don't get any rewards.
That can depend on which game is being played and how it's being played.

you must do what must be done to get ahead.
Everyone does what is within their personal comfort zone. For example, some markets are like working the "tenderloin" district and some don't want to play like you have to play in the tenderloin, so they stay out of those kind of neighborhoods. To continue with the analogy, the ladies who work streets of the tenderloin may end up with big bucks, but the suburban type generally doesn't opt for that style and so won't play the same way in the same places.

Besides, again continuing the analogy, Daly City authorities may cruise to give parking tickets if the wheels aren't turned properly to the curb on a hilly street, but the lady who doesn't park the car well isn't under the same scrutiny as the one a little further north on the streets of the SF tenderloin. The "authorities" at search engines are a bit further south down the coast than Daly City but they are still fairly neighborhood conscious last I heard. ;)

As far as what we get over hating, well that's relatively immaterial. I don't know anyone who loves changing messy diapers, cleaning toilets or washing windows, but they still get tended to. It's simply a matter of personal choice, comfort level - and in the case of SEO - ethical disclosure as to which neighborhood is being ventured into. Especially to under-age innocents who haven't become street savvy yet and don't know the differences.

Great thread kid.... you are going to be hard pressed to be the bad ass when people keep giving you positive points for good threads!

Great thread kid.... you are going to be hard pressed to be the bad ass when people keep giving you positive points for good threads!

hahaha.....the funny, albeit tragic, thing is that in the time since i made my monumental proclamation of being the SEW badass i've gotten more positive rep than i had in times past.

others who aspire to be goody two shoes would rejoice in such a scenario. of course, for anyone who is a bad ass and would like to be recognized as such, such an abuse of the reputation system incites nothing but anger. :mad:

IF I may make a better suggestion (you truly need to consider that 'like you' most people don't like giving up anything to get links - I wouldn't discount their motives to be 100% like yours)

Setup a directory [there are tons of free scripts online] with your website's main navigational links in the directory design.

Include a 'submit url' on your mainpage.

The mainpage link ensures the directory gets crawled regularly and is also a primary requirement for many people that seek link exchanges.

In the returning reciprocal links dialogue box have that url going to the directory mainpage (not your website mainpage) this way you are inducing the merits people want from an exchange and the main navigational in the directory transfers PageRank, weight, and relevancy direct to your secondary pages giving your website multiple points for high quality (rather than just one [normally just your mainpage].

You will be gaining more than you lose - plus the added value of not needing to seek 'all link exchanges' they will come to you, and do all the work.

but wouldnt this work better using a frame? with a frame the directory would not show any outbound links, and hence would be passing more PR to the links i have on the nav bar.

but wouldnt this work better using a frame? with a frame the directory would not show any outbound links, and hence would be passing more PR to the links i have on the nav bar.

The inner page would have no PR unless you wanted to submit it separately and the spider would find it.... without any inbound links it may be hard to get any rank though!

Kidmercury, like many things in life, the answer isn't simple. A non-reciprocating links page (framed content from another site, spidering of links page excluded in robots.txt, script-driven redirected links, etc.) may work with relatively unsophisticated webmasters - assuming you can get your link exchange request to stand out from the increasing flood of link spam. Also, if your site looks like it might generate traffic, even more experienced webmasters may not care about PR if their link is presented in an attractive way.

What you won't get are many inbound requests from other sites looking for link partners. You also won't get many responses from more knowledgeable webmasters (who are likely to control some of the more desirable links). If they check your site, a quick glance at your links page will almost certainly reveal that some kind of game-playing is going on.

I like fathom's directory idea; similarly, you could make a virtue of an alternate link site - instead of hiding the fact that the links are elsewhere, make the alternate site an attractive option (perhaps by adding content). Savvy link-hunters may welcome the non-reciprocal aspects, while novices won't care as long as the alternate site looks relevant and attractive.