I think this is how the google adwords ranking takes place.....

If Mike's ad has a Max CPC of $2.00 and a CTR of 1%, the ad gets a Rank Number of 2.

If Jeff's ad has a Max CPC of $0.05 and a CTR of 5%, the ad gets a Rank Number of 0.25.

If Andrew's ad has a Max CPC of $0.10 and a CTR of 25%, the ad gets a Rank Number of 2.5.

Therefore the ranking will be:

Andrew's ad
Mike's ad
Jeff's ad
If you think about it, the ad that generates the most revenue for Google is ranked highest.

Now....starts my problem

If som's ad has a Max CPC of $5 and a CTR of 0.05%, the ad gets a Rank Number of 0.25.

so the rank number is same for jeff and som now which is criteria to look on to.
I need some clear cut procedure to find out the adwords ranking...like first its the rank number to be considered ,if rank number is same next which i
have to look on and if that also is same,next which one and so on....can n e one plz help me out

the effective bid and clickthrough rate are calculated out to many positions (I think 6), so an exact tie in rank is exceptionally rare.

I'm guessing -- stressing the guessing here -- that in the rare case of a tie, the older advertiser will get the tiebreak. That's the system at least with Overture.

Cool topic, Phpwonderkid!


I'm guessing -- stressing the guessing here -- that in the rare case of a tie, the older advertiser will get the tiebreak. That's the system at least with Overture.
I guess I should never say never, but I had a conversation with engineering a while ago on this subject, and was essentially told that a tie will 'never' happen.

This is primarily due to the fact that both CTR and Rank Number are calculated out to many decimal places, as pointed out by seobook. I don't know the exact number of decimal places, but my informed guess is that it is at least six, and probably more.

BTW, a very similar topic came up on another thread yesterday - so for a few more details on why a tie probably ain't gonna happen, please see post #13 here: http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=3401

AWR

many decimal places
oops...yeah, not really sure where I got that 6 from...thought it was from one of your posts, but obviously I am hosed on that. sorry :(

oops...yeah, not really sure where I got that 6 from...thought it was from one of your posts, but obviously I am hosed on that. sorry

No worries seobook! You were right on target with your essential message - and the actual number may even be six. I wish I knew, actually, but I'm probably not destined to! Exact algo details are sometimes a bit thin on the ground... :)

AWR

this is a good thread as i ponder this concept daily...

one problem i sometimes run into is the following:

i reveiw my campaign and see i have generated many clicks for an adgroup, but only a few conversions. conventional wisdom tells me:

"ok, lower the cpc waaay down and benefit from the 'shoppers' who don't just click top positions"

but, because i did generate so many clicks resulting in my CTR being rather high, lowering my CPC sometimes still does not lower my "position" for keyword phrases and thus, i end up continuing to rack up clicks.

make sense?

it makes it very difficult to 'position yourself' based on belief of position vs. traffic....

is there any solution to this quandry?

actually ...i have more questions (assuming and hoping adWords rep is still lurking)

1) does it hurt my results in any way if i have the same keyword phrases in other adword groups? for example:

adgroup name: fox theatre tickets
keyword phrase: stomp tickets for the fox theatre

and then, sometimes i will have the following also:

adgroup name: stomp tickets
keyword phrase: stomp tickets for the fox theatre

how does google know which adgroup to display when someone queries: "stomp tickets for the fox theatre"


thanks ...i passed the google exam with flying colors but i still seem to have a gazillion questions. {sigh}

it makes it very difficult to 'position yourself' based on belief of position vs. traffic....

is there any solution to this quandry?
Good point, sebastian, and there is not really an 'instant' way to change position. The quickest path is to lower your Max CPC (perhaps even per keyword) until you end up where you want to be.

However, the fact that your competition does not stay remain constant can make this an art as much as a science.



...does it hurt my results in any way if i have the same keyword phrases in other adword groups?

...how does google know which adgroup to display when someone queries: "stomp tickets for the fox theatre"
This is a good question - and the answer is pretty straightforward. Here are the essential details:

When the same keyword is used in more than one Ad Group, only one ad will show for a given search on that keyword. So, the AdWords system has to figure out which of the multiple ads to show. To do so, it uses this hierarchy:

* First choice to show will be the instance of the keyword which has the highest Max CPC.

* If all instances of the keyword have the same Max CPC, then the system will default to the instance of the keyword in which it has the highest CTR in that moment.

* As mentioned earlier, CTR is calculated to many decimal places - well beyond what shows in your stats. So even if your stats show that all instances of the keyword 'stomp tickets for the fox theatre' have a CTR of 2.5%, for example, in actual fact the multiple decimal places will point to a clear winner.

Make sense?

As an aside, I saw 'Stomp' many years ago - and haven't looked at a broom in the same way since. ;)

And congrats on passing the test, btw!

AWR

ok ...question #2 just in case you're still here

2) i have many adgroups where i am simply making a presence and not aggressively competing. i'll have some adgroups showing 20th-27th place, but still incurring clicks.

after finding this odd, i go find the 'tracking info' for this click and the IPs are always either foreign (and all my campaigns are US only) or impossible to figure out (i.e. big block IP owners)

this is when i get all antsy about click fraud and getting charged for clicks due to automated bots and "scrapers" (hopefully you are aware of "scrapers")

how does google differentiate a real 'click' from just some computer automatically scanning and scraping certain sites?

for instance, if someone created a bot to index the content based on a google query "atlanta falcons tickets" ...and this bot followed all links presented, including the "next page" links, wouldn't it ultimately follow my link and thus slam me with what google perceives as a legitimate click?

i ask this because more and more people are building web sites that scrape other sites based on google queries and thus create their own mini-directories on specific content subject areas all based on the first 6 or so pages of google queries.

i can imagine google would see a pattern of one IP banging away at the google servers, but what if they did it spaced out enough to not create patterns of clicking?

something like this could easily be done with MacroExpress and it worries me constantly.

thanks.

I can more easily done through dynamic IPs or shared like AOL.... you can get away with multiple clicks from AOL base as they figure they are from a large pool of searchers.
This should be interesting when AOL goes fully open online not behind the AOL wall as they have now... the tracking may get a little less clouded....

While we're talking about ad position, i wish there was a way to opt out of the premium slots(top horizontal ads). I find occupying the 2nd premium slot to have a much worse conversion rate then the top right spot. Problem is when trying to lower the CPC so you don’t occupy the premium slot the ad jumps to about 3rd or 4th. It’s infuriating! Anyone else find this?

While we're talking about ad position, i wish there was a way to opt out of the premium slots(top horizontal ads). I find occupying the 2nd premium slot to have a much worse conversion rate then the top right spot. Problem is when trying to lower the CPC so you don’t occupy the premium slot the ad jumps to about 3rd or 4th. It’s infuriating! Anyone else find this?
Something makes me think you are making these conclusions from different terms having sat in the various spots (since you do not know how to lower the positions well)... which is not the same thing.

I have found a huge difference in the two top positions compared to the right spots... occasionally the conversion works better right top compared to top second but that is more to do with the term than the position.
The caveat is the cost is generally a tad higher to hold the spots unless you can manipulate the CTR through the creative to impact position (can be done but is tricky). The up side is a large amount of traffic and though less profitable on a unit basis the volume generally overcompensates the drop in single profit.

Something makes me think you are making these conclusions from different terms having sat in the various spots (since you do not know how to lower the positions well)... which is not the same thing.

I have found a huge difference in the two top positions compared to the right spots... occasionally the conversion works better right top compared to top second but that is more to do with the term than the position.
The caveat is the cost is generally a tad higher to hold the spots unless you can manipulate the CTR through the creative to impact position (can be done but is tricky). The up side is a large amount of traffic and though less profitable on a unit basis the volume generally overcompensates the drop in single profit.

Agree this is the norm, however..

I have had 3 accounts occupying the two premium spots and the 1st spot on the right for the same term at the same time, also tried every other position there is. Over the last 12 months i’ve noticed the performance of the 1st premium spot to be acceptable, the 2nd premium spot to be very poor, and the top right spot the best. The difference in quality of traffic for this term between premium slots and the top right is huge. Unfortunately when adjusting the CPC by the *smallest* amount the ad can jump from 1st/2nd premium spot to as low as 5th on the right. For other ads/terms i wouldn’t give up the premium spot if the conversation halved. Be nice to be able to opt out.

Agree this is the norm, however..

I have had 3 accounts occupying the two premium spots and the 1st spot on the right for the same term at the same time, also tried every other position there is. Over the last 12 months i�ve noticed the performance of the 1st premium spot to be acceptable, the 2nd premium spot to be very poor, and the top right spot the best. The difference in quality of traffic for this term between premium slots and the top right is huge. Unfortunately when adjusting the CPC by the *smallest* amount the ad can jump from 1st/2nd premium spot to as low as 5th on the right. For other ads/terms i wouldn�t give up the premium spot if the conversation halved. Be nice to be able to opt out.
If you hit the 5 spot just manipulate your way up from there. As you move from spot to spot look at the conversion rates and maybe you will find that optimum number.... remember it has to factor volume as well as just CPA.

If you hit the 5 spot just manipulate your way up from there. As you move from spot to spot look at the conversion rates and maybe you will find that optimum number.... remember it has to factor volume as well as just CPA.

Thanks for the advice, and realise you’re trying to help, but i said I’ve tried all i can.

Manipulating your position on the right is simple, but when your competitors are not approved for the premium slots trying to avoid them and gain top right spot in not always possible. The slightest change will see our ad jump from 4th/5th to premium, instead of the desired effect of going top right, other than manipulating CTR i have done all can manipulating CPC. Realise not wanting a premium slot is unusual, but the 2nd premium spot is terrible for this term, as the 1st premium spot inst much better, i would rather avoid them altogether(for this particular term)

Thanks for the advice, and realise you�re trying to help, but i said I�ve tried all i can.

Manipulating your position on the right is simple, but when your competitors are not approved for the premium slots trying to avoid them and gain top right spot in not always possible. The slightest change will see our ad jump from 4th/5th to premium, instead of the desired effect of going top right, other than manipulating CTR i have done all can manipulating CPC. Realise not wanting a premium slot is unusual, but the 2nd premium spot is terrible for this term, as the 1st premium spot inst much better, i would rather avoid them altogether(for this particular term)
Here is where filing the old creatives come in handy... obviously you will need to lower the CTR a little... if you have old tested creatives that had good conversion but lower CTR you may want to see if that will help.

Yes frndz,
It would really of good help ,if some would let me know the logic of google adowrds ,i hav a work designing this type of seach engine
plz mail me to chandru_aug20@yahoo.com

While we're talking about ad position, i wish there was a way to opt out of the premium slots(top horizontal ads).
PaulH, at present there is not a way to opt out of appearing in the top spots - although I'll certainly pass your thoughts on as a 'vote' to include this option in the future.

Sorry to be a little late in responding, BTW. I've been away for the holidays, and forgot to mention it before I left. So that I don't forget again, I'll mention now that I'll also be away from the office from 12/31 thru 1/03 - returning on 1/04. ;)

AWR