A lot of times it seems to me that, in order to be really good at SEO, creativity beats technical skills by a long shot.

I'm really (really, really) into tech stuff and analytical thinking and all of that, but it seems to me that the technical know-how one needs to be great at SEO isn't that demanding (I think most people could learn it).

What really sets apart a great SEO from an average SEO seems to be the ability to come up with creative marketing ideas to get (valuable) inbound links.

I think when it comes to consulting work technical/analytical skills are probably a lot more important (analzying and trying to fix a less than perfect site).

But when it comes to working on your own sites creativity/marketing skills seem to be more important than the technical know-how in order to get results.

Am I right or wrong? What do you people think about it? I'm not trying to start another SEO isn't rocket science debate, but this is how I see it at the moment and am just wondering how more experienced SEOs see it!


NOTE: blackhat SEO and what might happen to the algorithm in the future are also another story of course :-)

In general:

Technical SEO removes obstacles to ranking well.

Creative SEO encourages higher ranking (advancement).

Although you can see results with an average site in an average market doing only one or the other, to be truly exceptional (or competitive) you need both.

Ian

Ian I totally disagree with your uncreativeness, sorry buddy. :D

For my new site I've created 1, but looking towards 5, nice link bait tools that require very technical nohow and creativity to create. I had to do some serious research into creating them and then build the programs by hand from scratch. These will attrack links as they are very useful and unquie in my new area.

I'm not saying that marketing doesn't require creativeness and most links to the new site will come from my marketing/ Hard link building strategies.

But a creative programmer and IA can create a site which naturally attracts links and it is not just about fixing issues, getting rid of duplicate content, urls etc.. to rank well, and to help with indexing of coarse IMO.

But then I would say that I'm a programmer. :)

Creative programming can be just as good, and I'm not talking about black hats either.

Jaz

That's all well and good for a site that you're building, Jaz, you're keeping optimization in mind as you develop.

When you're called in to work on somebody else's site the very first thing you have to do is a complete technical audit. No matter how creative your other SEO efforts might be, they can't be effective if the SEs can't see them or are somehow being confused.

But when it comes to working on your own sites creativity/marketing skills seem to be more important than the technical know-how in order to get results.
Am I right or wrong?

I could be wrong Jim but wasn't this his question? :D
Granted not everyone has the knowledge or time at that, or both.

If you know your syntax well creating link bait's not hard. I had to look a few functions up as I haven't used them before, or in a while, so I did have a short learning curve which added to the time to create them, the 1 I have so far. But if I worked as a programmer full time I could cut this out and then creating these tools would only be an hour or 2 job.

Jaz

Well, I was responding to your post, Jaz, but the same still goes for NewKid's original post. You can be as creative as you want in your SEO efforts but if the tech stuff isn't nailed down, they might go for naught.

You, as a very competent programmer can put the proper stuff in place simply as a matter of course, almost without thinking about it. When you go to put the "creative" aspects in place you're sure they will at least be seen, no obstacles.

Duplicate content, non-friendly URLs, nav links tied up in javascript, heavy use of Flash with no html equivalent, etc. - no matter how creative your other efforts might be, these'll kill 'em.

No granted Jim.
But I still cant see why you cant, OK programmings not everyones bag. It takes a special kind of person.

No life and geeky. defiantly, and not every site needs them as well, but that said I still cant see why it's not possible main stream.

I don't want to go into detail about it as I have said what my new site will be catering for in the UK and I obviously don't want my competitors to copy the idea.

But the way the 1 I have done so far works is like this -
It takes 3 parameters from the user and spits out some calculated stuff from them. The maths to do it, bare in mind I was in bottom set maths at school and came out with a grade C at GCSE - again proving it's not that hard, does three calculations then two more then two more and wella you have the 3 calculated variables to show to the user.

The math took about 10 mins to write if that. Trying to work out how to calculate it took 3 hours, CSS and re-positioning of HTML took 40-50 mins.

So for 3 hours 50 mins /4 hours it was worth it.
If the client then knows how to calculate it it's less then an hours work.

Bare in mind PHP has a lot of the math functions pre-built. ceil being 1.

Maybe you could charge more Jim
PM me I'll give you some lessons :D

Jaz

I have a single question, Jaz. :)

Is the true creativity of the program/site you are working on in the programming, or the business model that was previously unavailable but is now allowed by the programming?

I think you may be selling yourself short. Don't be so proud of your programming skill that you forget that (assuming your idea is successful) you have marketing skill too.

After all, any good programmer can do maths - it takes marketing knowledge and business acumen to decide *what* maths are profitable, and what are just maths.

As I said earlier, the best do both technical and creative SEO.

Ian

As I said earlier, the best do both technical and creative SEO.
No I totally agree with you Ian. Don't get me wrong.

What I'm disagreeing about is the fact that good programming can lead to good link bait which leads to good links back, if done well.

Good link bait as well has several other properties, that's why it attracts links, If you do it for SEO reasons it'll fail to get good links. Done for a usability factor and it's a side effect that I think is over looked in terms of SEO.

Here are the side affects IMO that good link bait gives you:

1. Usability - it may be something some one is looking for, if rare and onpage is done well it can generate you a lot of traffic.

2. WooAbility - Again done well - I think it's pretty self explanatory.

3. Coming in from a marketing point of view/usability it can fill some of the users good will back.

Say for example they go to your site. They cant find what they want so their good will towards your site drops. Consider a glass of water full, would mean they have totally faith in your business, every problem they come to - unable to find the home page button, shopping cart that has unknown number of process to complete, information that takes a while to go to.

Their good will slowly empties. Glass of water gets emptier. But then they see your tool/link bait. Fill it in and their good will towards you goes back up as they just got information that is aimed towards their personal goal.

Lets take Dell as another prime example, rather than just my experience.

They noticed a large bounce rate on one of their pages. They added a finance calculator and their bounce rate dropped. I have no stats to say how many links if any it picked up. But it's not hard to create and the benefits because of it where noticeable, about 35-40% noticeable.


Is the true creativity of the program/site you are working on in the programming, or the business model that was previously unavailable but is now allowed by the programming?
That's a good question TBH.
I would say it is both due to above. The good programming fixes the errors gets it more traffic and business. You then build the tool, which doesn't take long - relatively, and it's either going to do 1 of 2 things.

1. Nothing, the business didn't need it or the tool adds little value only used by people already committed to the macro action (the sale or contacting you).

2. Increase in business as the example with DELL above showed.

But my point if it is done well it will also get you links.
Take mine for example, this is where your creativeness comes in to play, it will be on my home page so I can hopefully get a few more peoples good will up or keep them interested. But I will also include it in it's own separate page so it can attract links. This will have main focus towards my blog which with good internal architecture will then push any equity achieved from it to my product pages. While keeping the apparent focus off my e-commerce section of my site, thus hopefully more links. But as my blogs are aimed towards my e-commerce site, indirectly any one who follows the links to the blog will more than likely hit the product page.

I consider each blog page done well a micro action towards my macro action. A step the user must take towards the sale or contacting you.

I do think link bait is over looked. Good link bait adds to a user centred design. That's then done with a SEO head can then bring in more links.

I personally think that any of the following sites can easily generate good links due to good user centred link bait.

90% of most websites. :D

You just have to get creative as the DELL example showed.
Ask yourself what questions are my users asking before they commit - dells example was something like -

How much will this cost over 6-7 years?

The calculator then let them figure it out rather then getting scared off it.

Then either provide the information or be part of the Ajaxian 2.0 world and create something that will keep them interested and solve their question. Then think about the SEO value and how to market this for other purposes. It's not hard if you use the best tool in your arsenal - your brain.

I'm also not considering my other 4 that I plan on building eventually.

After all, any good programmer can do maths - it takes marketing knowledge and business acumen to decide *what* maths are profitable, and what are just maths.
I think I answered that with the above but also indirectly with -

If the client then knows how to calculate it it's less then an hours work.
The client knows their business, most of the time.
You have the knowledge then to market the tool and hopefully the knowledge to create it.

But you may be right I may be selling my self short :D

Jaz

Let me add another question:

I think when working with clients/doing consulting work an even bigger benefit of being great at the technical stuff can be that it helps you market yourself better. Most clients don't have that much of a clue about SEO and I think most of them think of it as something mostly technical.

I remember when I started reading up about SEO and what it was, it took me a while to understand that SEO is *a lot* about being creative/a good marketer (initially I had thought it was something purely technical)...and I think it'll still take some time until the majority of clients will understand that.

So until then knowing a lot about the technical stuff can help yourself market yourself better and charge higher (fair) fees. I know of an SEO consultant here in Germany who's doing this and it seems to really help him market himself very well to clients (which I think is absolutely fine if you're a good SEO, which he is).

How important do you guys think this is when working with clients? Do you think they trust you more if they realize you're great at the tech aspects, because they think SEO is almost purely a technical discipline?

Do you think they trust you more if they realize you're great at the tech aspects, because they think SEO is almost purely a technical discipline?

No, I think clients trust you more when as an SEO you demonstrate creative problem solving in addition to understanding creative concepts like "branding".

I bet this depends on what kind of clients you do work for. I bet the type of clients you described are clients that have some understanding of the fundamentals of search (know enough to outsource it to a capable person)?

Technically, clients shouldn't really care whether you seem to know a lot about 'tech stuff', etc. but should simply look at the evidence and what you're ranking for (imho) - but then again, that would require them to understand the basics of SEO.

So, I guess it might depend on the type of client you're doing work for..?

Maybe, in Germany the type of clients are mostly clients who don't know anything about SEO as we're a bit behind when it comes to the web (hey, I'm just being honest :-)) and are thus easier to influence by this