I've heard some really good testimonials from Traffic Logic users and although at first they seem a bit shadey (in terms of selling links in a mock About.com), they seem to work and convert.

Has anyone here used them and what do you think of them?

Any horror stories? Any great success?

Thanks,
Loren

Don't have any specific experirnce or knowledge of them... but I did type >Traffic Logic< into Google and got some interesting reads at various forums! ;)

I was gonna say "Try traffic Logic forum in google". I find that helps wed out the non-results!!!

I do not believe in paying others that set up networks that send leads to me AND MY COMPETITORS.

recently someone who was less than happy reviewed their services on WMW but they deleted the post. luckily threadwatch has the scoop...
http://www.threadwatch.org/node/82

added: here is some usenet feedback
http://searchguild.com/tpage3205-15.html

I have used Traffic Logic for about a year now. I get an average of 10-30 visitors a day from them, which is good for my site. The traffic they send does actually convert a little better than other traffic sources I've used. Since they are organic listings, my rankings (and therefore my traffic) do fluctuate up and down, but I guess that's just the way it is.

I've heard seobook's argument against helping to build networks that sell to my competitors, and I understand the theory, but I don't think it's realisitic. I wish I could have exclusivity with everyone I do business with, but that's not how the world works. If I stop paying Google or Overture, you'd better believe they're going to pull my ads the next day and sell them to someone else. TL does the same thing. If I choose to stop paying for my traffic, they go and sell it to my competitor. Not my favorite policy, but I'd probably do the same thing. It's not a scam...it's advertising. :D

So, bottom line lorenbaker...in my experience with them, Traffic Logic is not shady...they're just advertisers. :)

I wish I could have exclusivity with everyone I do business with, but that's not how the world works. If I stop paying Google or Overture, you'd better believe they're going to pull my ads the next day and sell them to someone else. TL does the same thing. If I choose to stop paying for my traffic, they go and sell it to my competitor. Not my favorite policy, but I'd probably do the same thing. It's not a scam...it's advertising. :D
its only the same thing as Overture and Google if the content was there before you purchased it. if the content was not there and you pay them to make it you are paying to create another competing website.

typically I would recommend asking around to a few SEOs to see if you can optimize your own site first before paying to create a competitor. I am not saying all SEOs are better than what traffic logic is doing (most probably are not). all I am stating is that in my particular example the guy who eventually hired me payed first paid traffic logic 150% of what he paid me for about 30% of the traffic. if he does not resign with them then he paid to create another competitor.

the traffic is typically cheaper than major network PPC traffic is though.

I have used Traffic Logic for about a year now. I get an average of 10-30 visitors a day from them, which is good for my site. The traffic they send does actually convert a little better than other traffic sources I've used. Since they are organic listings, my rankings (and therefore my traffic) do fluctuate up and down, but I guess that's just the way it is.

You do tend to get what you pay for. I would suspect though you would get 10-20/day without any help thus the TL margin isn't really overly helpful.

I've heard seobook's argument against helping to build networks that sell to my competitors, and I understand the theory, but I don't think it's realisitic. I wish I could have exclusivity with everyone I do business with, but that's not how the world works. If I stop paying Google or Overture, you'd better believe they're going to pull my ads the next day and sell them to someone else. TL does the same thing. If I choose to stop paying for my traffic, they go and sell it to my competitor. Not my favorite policy, but I'd probably do the same thing. It's not a scam...it's advertising. :D

Agree here... truly you can't segregate from competition. Whether you are #1 or #1000 in search engines there tends to be 999 competitiors right beside.

Realistically you can't be in "any directory" without a direct relationship with competitors, or on any website's link page for that matter. It's misguided thinking to believe any strategy is "exclusively yours" thus you can't avoid being helpful to competitors...

Be that as it may the best course to take is wisely choosing the lesser of evils and work directly with likeminded "competitors" to induce mutual gain.

So, bottom line lorenbaker...in my experience with them, Traffic Logic is not shady...they're just advertisers. :)

Often the difference between "shady" or "not" is merely perception... for me any SEO that offers "100% unconditional money back guarantee" in advance but in hindsight challenges the client to a refund is shady, where a company that offer none and takes the publicly acknowledged stance "use at your own risk" "isn't".

>>they seem to work and convert.

I've come across a number of their search engine listings at Google while putting together a couple of new sites of my own that are on the same topics as many of their pages. I haven't seen them have listings for competitive terms - only the lesser ones. And the more narrow terms, being far less competitive are way easier to rank for - and being targeted, as longer phrases are, the "little" keywords do convert, from my experience, because they're specific searches.

Not only that, but only speaking from my own experience the number of clicks for AdSense on a page FAR, FAR exceeds even the least obtrusive of affiliate text links, done exactly as a normal ecom site does them - as does the income FAR exceed, and in fact greatly diminishes the traffic to the site being linked to directly.

I don't know how much traffic they're sending people - and of course, no doubt there are pages out there that I haven't seen, but the ones I have seen are not ranking any better than competing sites that have had absolutely no SEO done on them at all.

As far as I'm concerned, any model that sends traffic from the SEO company's own pages is either PPC as in some cases, is working on the same basis as some cloakers have done - which is fine imho if it's necessary - or it's leasing traffic from the company's site with the client paying for the clicks with monthly payments.

When a company or person makes it very clear that that's what they're selling it's fine, imho - it's honest.

IMHO, even if the SEO or company has their own pages optimized well and ranking well and is sending the client traffic, they are NOT providing SEO services to their clients. If that's how it is, for a client to be told that they are receiving SEO services and for them to be paying for something called "SEO" is a deception no matter how effective and manipulative a sales pitch is being given.

It is NOT SEO, it is selling or leasing traffic. Period.

Just MHO, FWIW.

>It is NOT SEO, it is selling or leasing traffic.<

Then what would you call the process of acquiring the traffic in the first place?

Not to be contradictory only expressing a different perspective.

In my experience, virtually every prospect calls you up telling you that what they want is to be in the top of the search engines. That is not true. That is not what they really want. What they really want is for me to make them money and they simply believe that they have to be in the top of the search engines to do that.

If you don't believe me just ask anyone who has ever had a client at #1 for the keyword the client said he wanted to be #1 for, only to have that client cancel. Why? The #1 placement did not make the client money. At least, not enough to make it worth the fee.

Go ahead and get your site ranked for SEO AND a site ranked for leasing traffic and see which one gets the lion's share of click thrus. I would not think any less of any person who marketed his/her services as an SEO when in actuality they already had placements or the ability to get them or a system for generating targeted traffic and then leasing that traffic to the highest bidder. I would merely see that person as identifying a market and satisfying a demand.

I would see that person as realizing that all the prospective client REALLY wants is to make their site more profitable. If that prospect is searching for that using SEO keywords, I believe it's much smarter to place yourself where the prospect is looking than trying to re-educate the buying public to call your service what YOU think it should be called.

If building a website to take advantage of not only a search engines' weaknesses but it's strengths as well is called SEO, then surely PPC is SEO too. Right? Maybe PPC is the epitome of search engine optimization. Maybe that is all it ever was.

My question is, would you really spend your time trying to convince a prospect that he is mistaken and doesn't REALLY want your kind of services and explain where he is misguided? Or would you congratulate him on his being smart enough to have selected you to ask and then explain the features and benefits of your service? Is that deceptive?

I agree with massa on this and another spin is that if you use high risk marketing and get a site burnt it easier to build another feeder site and the traffic returns, if you burn the client kiss it all goodbye...

DaveN

There has been a positive response just yesterday in regard to this matter on my forum at http://seo.anthonyparsons.com/forum/about79.html, reference the original post a member made at WMW that was deleted and good old Nick_W got a hold off and published at http://www.threadwatch.org. Good bloke you are Nick.

I checked out the link and saw that the post was from searchking2. For the record, that is not me. I have never used TL. I have spoken with some of their people but I've never actually used them.

I can't imagine why anyone would want someone to think they were me.

First off, with reference to the keywords being targeted, here is one example of a Google search

fancy dresses for little girls (tp://www.google.com/search?q=fancy+dresses+for+little+girls&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&safe=off&start=10&sa=N)

Few visitors looking for that, but when they do they are targeted. Is it worth paying the up-front to set up the content? How much income potential is there for such words? Then look further - it takes research.

Anthony Parsons
reference the original post a member made at WMW that was deleted and good old Nick_W got a hold off and published at http://www.threadwatch.org. Good bloke you are Nick.
Yah, it sure does take a lot of moxie in view of this:

#23 from the WebmasterWorld Terms of Service (http://www.webmasterworld.com/help.cgi?cat=tos)

You will not copy and retransmit any information out of these forums without first getting the permission of the original author of the message and a WebmasterWorld.com administrator.
You can bet you bippie that anyone who tries it will have a noticeable lack of posts appearing at said website. ;)

seobook
recently someone who was less than happy reviewed their services on WMW but they deleted the post. luckily threadwatch has the scoop...
http://www.threadwatch.org/node/82
Aside from the first TOS issue about the "scoop" being content that's being redistributed, here is one of the reasons why the post was probably deleted - also from the TOS

This forum system is not a venue for personal or private vendetta's. Keep your personal business as just that - personal. This forum is not a venue for the resolution of personal disputes with members or companies.
Gripes about companies done in public venues such as forums - that is, if they are indeed legitimate, are generally intended as vendettas, attempting to use the site as a soapbox to air personal grievances - assuming they actually are real grievances. That doesn't fly, and it's right in the TOS people agree to when they sign up as members - same as it is on every single forum site on the internet. Very simple.

That said, here's the current point in question:

Has the reliability of the source of the original post been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt? Was it a long-time member, or someone posting for the first time? Is it beyond any doubt a "dissatisfied" customer of Traffic Logic - OR - could it possibly be someone posting on behalf of a competitior of Traffic Logic, "posing" as a customer to put them in a bad light?

Think that isn't possible? Think again.

You think maybe that isn't one of the reasons why the rule exists there not to post about specifics? Think again.

You think Tabke doesn't know every trick in the book that could be pulled? Think again. :D

The bottom line is that for any iinformation to be taken as reliable for making any judgments, the accuracy and integrity of the information has to be verified. No such thing exists, it's nothing but unverified hearsay. There is no way to verify that it is, in fact, in any way truthful or accurate.

The best way to research is to see how they are doing in the SERPs based on looking through their pages and evaluating what keywords they are targeting that pertain to the space you operate in - - and evaluating their business model from there.

I gotta side with Marcia here. There is something kinda weird about this whole thing. I've always felt it was kind of tacky to post a link to your forum in another competing forum, (at least without paying for it). I just personally think it puts the mods and admins in a tough spot. Having been an SEO mod myself, (ages ago), I know how this sort of thing can escalate and being fair and impartial gets to be a much tougher job.

The majority of us here write articles, host forums and/or sell products and services. If one can post a link along with a little sales pitch to his/her forum just to "help out", why can't I post a link to my products page. I believe it really is the best and I'm just wanting to "help out" too. The problem is THEY think theirs is the best and they want to help too.

This is just one of those small things that have the potential to have a much greater impact on the entire industry than the act itself merits. I personally think when we are tempted to "help out" by encouraging people to go to our own properties, we should stop and try to find another way to bring value to the discussion just out of courtesy and repsect if nothing else.

As for someone other than me using my name to post somewhere, there was a time I may have been upset. There was also a time when I was naive and didn't have quite so many notches on my gun. After a few historic battles, I've learned that people are going to think what they are going to think and often the more you try to convince them of something, the more entrenched in their original position they become.

I've also learned that there is no such thing as bad press. Only bad reactions or in other words, poor public relations. Every question asked or statement made referring to you, offers the opportunity to respond in a way that will sway the mind of the people who care enough to even acknowledge the statement or question in the first place. The variable of course is whether it will sway them for or against you or make them care even less. As long as people care enough to speak of you, (or perhaps impersonate you ), as I see it, you have a shot. I believe having a shot is better than having no shot at all.

I doubt there is much of a way, but I do hope this topic can get back to whether what TL does is SEO or not.

I can't imagine why anyone would want someone to think they were me.
some people are probably taking some of your comments here as endorsements of service so they wanted to test the water.

it may be a bit underhanded, but if I were about to hire TL and wanted to see more about your partnership with or beliefs in TL services that would be an excellent thing to do.

what if someone would have bought Traffic Logic services because of your prior posts and now they won't.

seobook, massa has millions of years of experience - he is one of the hardy survivors among the neanderthals of SEO and internet marketing. :D

<sidebar>
Luvya, Beautiful Bob. :)
</sidebar>

Those who don't know, or who are just asking, are not likely to be influenced by massa's posts; they're probably too new to it all to understand. Those of us who know who he is and what he does know that what he does isn't what TL is doing.

What massa is talking about is different types of business models - of which there are many.

there is much more on this topic located here (http://forums.searchenginewatch.com/showthread.php?t=1261).

There are many different kinds of business models, and they all serve their purpose depending on individual sites' needs - if they're done well.

There are small, low budget sites in non-competitive markets that have low markup and low anticipated income, so those need a minimal amount of on-site optimization - for some they'll never see a proper ROI so DIY is best for them.

Other times there are big, high-budget sites that can't be modified one iota, and for them there's no choice but to be sent traffic. Aside from which some markets require high-risk SEO which may not be feasible for a heavily branded site. There's no choice for them.

imho it's the need that determines the proper model, and the better educated the site owners become, the more able they are to make the right choices for their particular needs. The key probably lies in communicating exactly what's being offered so there's no mistaking it.

Traffic Logic (or any other company or model) may be fine for some sites and not others, so is it possible to give a blanket answer that's right for everyone?

Traffic Logic (or any other company or model) may be fine for some sites and not others, so is it possible to give a blanket answer that's right for everyone?
and you should define exactly what your business goals are before hiring any kind of seo. you may want to do a small amount of ppc to test the waters to see what demand exists, but you really need to know what you want to do and should do some in depth market analysis before spending on any seo service.

> he is one of the hardy survivors among the neanderthals of SEO and internet marketing.<

I believe that is another first for me. I don't think I've ever been complimented and called a neanderthal in the same sentence before. Thank you ----- I think.

>What massa is talking about is different types of business models<

Actually, the ONLY thing I was talking about was:
>It is NOT SEO, it is selling or leasing traffic. Period.<

Then I asked:
>Then what would you call the process of acquiring the traffic in the first place? <

That is some of what I do and I don't think I'm the only one that takes that approach and I was wondering if it is not considered SEO by some, then what would the acquiring the traffic part be considered.

I was a user of Traffic Logic for one year. I had hoped for good things from their approach but it never really materialized. I deposted a lot of money and after 1 year had only 5 sales of low ticket items totally merely $130.00 (gross sales).

I asked for a refund but was denied on the basis that the # of visitors to the site were over 4000. Here's the catch and why I'm out over $1200 and WHY EVERYONE SHOULD BE WARY. The visitor in "Traffic Logic" terms means visitors to the new site they create ie: their site. That's not the same as visitors to the end users site. That number was only about 1300. My contention is that if someone does not click to my site, they can't purchase so click to the "Traffic Logic" site means little to the end user.

So while there is nothing dishonest going on here. Read the fine print and don't buy into what the sales people tell you. They told me that I could cancel if visitors to my site did not exceed 4000....not true...not my site, Traffic Logics made up site. Also I noted that the actually visitors even to their site was not on a par to reach 4000 until the last couple of months and then all of a sudden it increased and exceeded the 4000. Their rationale was that things were finally clicking and I was going to see good things. I don't believe that. Dennis

ie: their site.
a fairly lousy metric IMHO since I believe some of those pages display adsense ads pointing at competing websites above the ads for the person who paid for the content to be created.

Running adsense on client doorway pages??

You have got to be kidding!! No one is that slimy....

So while there is nothing dishonest going on here. I don't know about that. I am not a lawyer, but I used to beat some up. (my little brothers). If your paying them and they are running adsense on pages they built for you or "rented" to you, it very well could be fraud. It might be worth your time to speak to an Attorney.

Running adsense on client doorway pages??

You have got to be kidding!!
that is what it is.

I have only had a one client who used them in the past, but currently he now ranks #1 in Google (and Yahoo! and MSN) for his primary term for less than 2/3 of what they charged to set up his adsense site.

Your saying TP is now putting AdSense on these pages? Or am I not reading this correctly?

Your saying TP is now putting AdSense on these pages? Or am I not reading this correctly?
TP vs TL

different companies.

not sure that the pages are exactly considered doorway pages. the intent is to sell leads at a profit via adsense or charging the client upfront. I am not sure whether or not they provide static links with the ads.

I've been seeing TL's pages in some of the SERPs I watch. Yes, they're running AdSense on the pages.

Not at Google
http://www.google.com/search?q=newborn+clothes&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&start=10&sa=N

But at Yahoo, yes
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=slv1-&p=newborn+clothes

You can scroll down and see for yourself.

I've used TL for a long time and there are a few things I've learned....yes, there are Adsense ads on pages where my ad appears, and yes, they also have other clients in my industry that they sell ads to. I've had many discussions with collegues and with TL about all this and there a few points that haven't been brought up here. The content that my ad is placed on is not my content. I don't own it - TL does. I am simply buying traffic from an ad on that content. So I have no say as to what other ads appear there or what they do with that content, the same way I have no control over what other ads appear next to mine in Google or Overture. From the other posts here it sounds like these TL content pages are owned by the client and they are doing all these wacky things to them...but the pages are owned by TL and hosted on their site so they can legally do what they want with them. We are just buying ad clicks from those pages. I am happy with the traffic they've sent me so I continue to remain a client. That is the only thing I really care about anyway - good traffic.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion.

The content that my ad is placed on is not my content. I don't own it - TL does. I am simply buying traffic from an ad on that content. So I have no say as to what other ads appear there or what they do with that content, the same way I have no control over what other ads appear next to mine in Google or Overture.
sure. if the pages are already there you may want to buy some clicks on them.

if the content is not already there then there is no way I would want to subsidize creating competing content which places ads for competing sites above my own ads.

while the concept may get you a few more leads you are still placing competing ads above your own, and thus you may be losing market share in the process. no reason to pay to do that.

Another thing you could do is just buy content outright from them to put on your own website. Then you're building up your own site and not a potential competitor. And you're getting the same kind of content that they use to rank themselves.

Boy, was I wrong about this company. Their traffic dried up and they wouldn't refund my money like they said they would. Then they had the nerve to call me and ask if I wanted to give them MORE money to buy their content. My question is this: If their content doesn't get traffic to Article Insider, why would I pay money to put it on my site???

Hey Alex...I see you made your supportive statement way back in April of 2005, so i thank you for coming back and updating us. I am very curious, however, if you could post some of the numbers from this very long period. I and other readers would appreciate some percentages of traffic, etc..., type numbers? :)

added: more specifically, you say their "traffic dried up." Can you put a finger on any other events around that time (ie: New Orleans, Big Daddy, etc...) If you can give some dates maybe others could look for that correlation.