I'm interested to hear your take on the following quote I saved from an article I read recently relating to the new Adwords geo-targeting options:

"It's important to remember that regionally targeted ads still compete for placement with national ads based on relevancy and price per click since any one keyword can still have a mix of national and regional ads.

I guess a simple example might be a local pizza parlor operator who advertises on the keyword 'Seattle Pizza Parlor' in competition with a national advertiser who broad matches on the term 'Pizza Parlor'.

The local guy is still going to be competing for placement with the national advertiser for a search on 'Seattle Pizza Parlor'. . . is he not?

So I'm wondering what advantage the commentator thought would accrue by doing this.

I can see that he might have advantage if his ad (and the headline in particular) included the location . . . but what am I missing apart from that?

Thanks in anticipation.

i think the point here is just to remember that localization does not ensure higher placement in google. as with all google listings, rank is determined by a combination of CPC (cost per click) and CTR (clickthrough rate): adrank = CPC * CTR

a site with a high CPC and low CTR may outrank a site with a low CPC and high CTR, and vice versa depending on the relative values of each.

localization does not give you a "boost" in relevance or ranking; it just narrows your specific distribution -- or, from the perspective of advertisers who are advertising nationwide on the same keywords as you, it *expands* the competition they face in your specific area by adding in one more advertiser they have to compete with for rank (you) with whom they do not have to compete elsewhere. the implication is that competitive CPCs actually can vary city/region by city/region.

compare this with the way match types work at overture: exact match listings ALWAYS trump phrase match, and phrase match ALWAYS trumps broad match, independent of bids. the result in this approach is that a 0.10 listing (exact) can outrank a 1.00 listing (broad). overture takes this approach for the sake of relevancy.

Thanks for your reply bradbyrd:
i think the point here is just to remember that localization does not ensure higher placement in google. as with all google listings, rank is determined by a combination of CPC (cost per click) and CTR (clickthrough rate): adrank = CPC * CTR

Ahh . . . agreed. That's what the original quote says:
It's important to remember that regionally targeted ads still compete for placement with national ads based on relevancy and price per click
So the question remains . . . what advantage might the commentator have been referring to?

(I wonder if this will teach me to properly archive quotes with source details in future ;-)

TIA

where are you seeing the mention of the "advantage"?
i guess i'm confused...

Yes, these comments on Local Targeting are right on the money. I do some marketing for the Morrison House Hotel in Alexandria, VA. (see case study (http://www.imwave.com/casestudies-morrisonhouse.htm)). If I run the term Hotel with local targeting for his market area, I am still competing with the national firms running the term Hotel and paying boat loads of money. So those ads don't show up. It has been much more effective marketing localized terms like "Alexandria VA Hotel" and "Alexandria Virginia Hotels".

Adam Viener

Adam,

Thanks for your post.

I just found some notes I had made in this respect, and aside from the benefit you describe, the 'advantage' the commentator was referring to was that it makes it far easier to maintain a high CTR on the (localized) keyword for searches made by people who search with location in the query.

If you don't use the location qualifier in the keyword, then you have to run the keyword on either broad or phrase match to catch that group of people . . . and that inevitably dilutes the CTR when the non localized keyword is shown against irrelevant searches.

Adam,

Perhaps you can help with a related issue.

In the post at http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum81/3375.htm the guys were talking about how to see locally targeted ads (ie geo-targeted) from outside the target area.

The answers posted include using proxy servers and Adsense preview.

However, I thought that when geo-targeting was first introduced that you could simply include the location in the search query, and Google would return relevant geo-targeted ads . . . regardless of where you happen to be?

My understanding was always that Google would look at the query first (before the searcher's IP addy) to determine if there was a local intent.

Can you throw any light on this?

TIA

In the post at http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum81/3375.htm the guys were talking about how to see locally targeted ads (ie geo-targeted) from outside the target area.

The answers posted include using proxy servers and Adsense preview.

However, I thought that when geo-targeting was first introduced that you could simply include the location in the search query, and Google would return relevant geo-targeted ads . . . regardless of where you happen to be?

My understanding was always that Google would look at the query first (before the searcher's IP addy) to determine if there was a local intent.

Can you throw any light on this?

Good question. I had heard that they would "try" to apply geo-targeted ads to localized querries as well. I also think you can use their local.google.com (http://local.google.com/) site to specifiy a localtion and do geo-targeted querries. That might be a bit easier than playing around with proxies.

Adam

My wife owns a Chinese restaurant that delivers so I thought I would set up an AdWords campaign at Google to get leads for her web site that has a delivery menu.

I had no idea it would take almost a week of full time work to get to the bottom of how to set up a local ad campaign on AdWords. I think I finally have things working and I will share the highlights of what I have learned in case someone else wants to give them a try.

After reading the setup info and setting up the campaign, the first thing I found was the Google Locations service was worthless. Maybe it is just the ISPs I use, but not a single ad would come through until I set the campaign to "Global or nationwide-United States". Once the ads started coming through, I started testing the "broad match" logic. Unfortunately, the broad match logic was not very intelligent. For example, if I set up a keyword in AdWords "Chinese delivery TUSTIN" and then went to Google and searched on "Chinese delivery TUSTIN, CA" or "Chinese delivery TUSTIN CA", no ad would show up. I know the phrase was in AdWords because "Chinese delivery TUSTIN" would trigger an ad to display. Why Google does not display on "Chinese delivery TUSTIN CA" when all the words in the AdWords phrase are present in the query is a mystery to me.

At this point I realized I would need to create keyword phrases for every keyword + location I would want to trigger an ad. I entered in to a mild state of depression thinking of the monotonous task of building such a list, and became suicidal at the thought of maintaining this list. Routine tasks like expanding or reducing the radius of the target area and changing the base keywords would be very time consuming. After a bit of thinking I determined it would be justified to spend a few days coding a system that would accept a US zip code, an area radius, and keyword list and then build a list containing all possible combinations of cities/zip codes with the entered keyword list.

I coded the system in PHP/MySQL and I have placed it on a public page for others to use and comment on. The URL to the page is http://5minutesite.com/gen_keywrds.php. So far things seem to be working well. I set the zip code, a radius of 2 miles, entered 16 keyword phrases I thought people might search on and a few nearby neighborhood names. The resulting combined list contained 240 items. I loaded this list into AdWords and now I am getting ad triggers that I am happy with. If I expanded the area radius to 10 miles, an area many service companies cover, the resulting list contains 2,512 items; a number of items that would be next to impossible to maintain manually. I am sure I still have a lot to learn about how to manage a local AdWords campaign, but at least now I have a tool that makes it easy to test new scenarios.

Great post Conciseusa . . . and terrific localised keyword generator - I love it. the first thing I found was the Google Locations service was worthless. Maybe it is just the ISPs I use, but not a single ad would come through until I set the campaign to "Global or nationwide-United States". When you set up local targeting, did you enter a street address for your business . . . or did you specify lattitude and longitude co-ordinates?

if I set up a keyword in AdWords "Chinese delivery TUSTIN" and then went to Google and searched on "Chinese delivery TUSTIN, CA" or "Chinese delivery TUSTIN CA", no ad would show up. I know the phrase was in AdWords because "Chinese delivery TUSTIN" would trigger an ad to display. Is it possible there is another Tustin in another state?

Regards,

Gary

Hey ztalk112,

Thanks for you comments.

When you set up local targeting, did you enter a street address for your business . . . or did you specify latitude and longitude co-ordinates?
I did not even try to be that accurate. First I tried selecting all the cities I want to target -- no ads --, then the Los Angeles area -- no ads --, then the whole state -- no ads --, then I selected the whole US -- ads triggered --. I think the problem is not in Google knowing the area I want to target, but that it can not determine the location of the person running the query. Googe warns it may have problems with this. In my experience Google never determined my location when I was querying the Google search engine.


Is it possible there is another Tustin in another state?
There might be, but that should not matter because at that point I was in national mode and just using simple text matching. The problem appears to be in the "broad match" logic. It did not work as advertised in my testing.

Hope this clears up some of my findings.

I just read about an agency over in Europe doing this for a local airline. The won an award for it so they must have figured things out.

"Agence Virtuelle the European search engine marketing specialist has won a Web Marketing Association award for its Swiss International Air Lines campaign.

Agence Virtuelle ran a CPC regional geo-targeting campaign to promote Swiss International Air Lines’ promotional airfares in the UK, Austria and Germany. They targeted potential customers according to their geographical proximity to airports served by Swiss International Air Lines and used creative selection of keywords and phrases to keep bidding cost down while targeting potential customers with more specific offers and delivering greater return on investment.

Across all target areas Agence Virtuelle increased the CTR on advertisements from 3.4 per cent to more than 6 per cent."

maybe you can ask someone there

First I tried selecting all the cities I want to target -- no ads --, then the Los Angeles area -- no ads --, then the whole state -- no ads --, then I selected the whole US -- ads triggered --. I think the problem is not in Google knowing the area I want to target, but that it can not determine the location of the person running the query.

Before selecting the whole US, did you ask other users in your city to try searching for your keywords and see if your ad came up for them? It may be very possible that Google could not decipher YOUR location, but that doesn't mean that it won't decipher the location of others in your target area. For example, anybody using AOL always has an IP that places them in Virginia. I have a relative who works at a major company in San Francisco whose IP address is purposely blocked and so he never sees any ads that I set up for that area. But I always see the ads that I set up for my own city. While I agree that city targeting is not perfect, I have found that I get better conversion rates than with the alternative.

danielanaidu,

Thanks for your input.

I think what you are saying is correct. I did my testing with my Adelphia connection. Since Adelphia is a huge local ISP, it is a show stopper if my ads don't show up with them.

I guess the best solution is to have 2 campaigns, one with localized keywords and another using Google's location server.

That will be a project for another day.

I am currently adding some of the features suggested in other posts to my keyword generator. I should be able to add most or all of the features of GoogEdit to my system. I will make it so you can use those features with or without adding locations to the keyword list.

conciseusa,
I guess the best solution is to have 2 campaigns, one with localized keywords and another using Google's location server. This may be a lame question . . . but what is 'Google's location server'?

Thanks in anticipation.

conciseusa,
This may be a lame question . . . but what is 'Google's location server'?

Thanks in anticipation.

For lack of a better expression it is what I call the system in Google that attempts to convert a users IP address to a geographic location. Not a lame question as this is a term I made up :D

Please, if I may switch the gears just a bit. Is it at all possible for certain Search Engine platforms to be running across the same boards? For instance, I'm with CitySearch and they say I've received 354 clicks this month so far. I don't feel the call volume or email volume at all. I'm with Google, Yahoo Yellow, Insite Lycos, LookSmart, Overture and Yellowpages.com.

Are any of these running across the same platforms at all, you know like double booking? I get clicked on in Insite Lycos but it's also on the Overture or Yahoo platform, so I'm paying for that click twice or thrice? Help anyone?

Sherman

conciseusa,

Thanks for your reply . . . thought I was missing a trick there for a while ;)

Looking forward to seeing how your keyword generator looks after the upgrade! If you remember, can I ask you to post a message in this thread when you're done so I get notified?

Cheers,

Gary

Shermo,

I haven't heard of cross-over in paid search network coverage . . . but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

However, before I went down that track I'd be inclined to look to some common reasons for what you describe . . . things like keyword relevancy (ie too general), poor conversion design on your site, and dear I say it, click fraud.

You're likely to get more input if you started another thread for what is really a different topic. But you might hunt around first, because I'm sure you'll find poor conversion discussed many other times on this board and over at WebmasterWorld (http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum81/)

No problem Gary,

I just posted an update that adds an option to add copies wrapped with "" [].
It also allows the Zip Code and Radius to be left blank if you just want to use the wrapping, prefix, suffix or permutator functions without adding location data. You can use it like an online GoogEdit.

Also fixed a few minor bugs I found.

I will be adding some more functions, but I still need to learn more about how to setup PPC keywords to see what functions are needed and how to implement them.

Any suggestions you think of will be welcome.

conciseusa,

Sounds cool :)

Going back to your original topic . . . I think the problem is not in Google knowing the area I want to target, but that it can not determine the location of the person running the query. Googe warns it may have problems with this. In my experience Google never determined my location when I was querying the Google search engine. Have you tried confirming your ISP's IP address with something like ip2location.com (http://www.ip2location.com/) ?

Gary

Yes that was the problem, my IP address places me in PENNSYLVANIA, COUDERSPORT but I am actually in Newport Beach, Ca.

I wonder if anyone is using Google's location targeted ads and getting a good result.

conciseusa,

I've read several cases of the same difficulty.

You could try using a proxy server that fools Google into thinking you're in CA.

I'm in New Zealand, and I've successfully used the trial version of ProxySwitcher to place me in the US for a Google project I was working on.

They have a good little Camtasia 'how-to' tutorial at http://www.proxyswitcher.com/tutorials.html

Gary

Gary,

Thanks for the info on the ProxySwitcher, might come in handy.

My main concern is no one else using the big ISPs will be able to see my ads. Hence the need to create the Local Keyword Generator http://5minutesite.com/gen_keywrds.php.

Also you want to be sure that anyone searching on `keywords location` will see your ad. From what I have seen, I don't think I can rely on Google to reliably parse and separate the keywords from the location and serve ads from the proper area. By using all possible combinations of locations and keywords, you know your ad will trigger.

That said I am planning on running some campaigns using Google's location server and seeing how the results compare to my brute force keyword method. This is my first PPC effort. I had no idea what I was getting into :eek: